carbon dioxide Posted January 4, 2022 Posted January 4, 2022 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Nofear said: While I agree with the sentiment and that you rightly condemn to promiscuous use of [blank]phobia... having the view that spiders are to be feared greatly, the opinion that they are out to cause humans pain, and the position that they are to be despised and destroyed casually could potentially be a sign of genuine arachnophobia. It could be. We had a mice problem in our house this past year. My wife went nuts and definitely showed signs of a phobia of mice. I was not happy about the situation but instead of freaking out, I calmly and methodically planted traps around the house and removed the problem 😁 I do have my phobias. I have a fear of wasps. You could put me in a room with 5 transgender people. Though I disagree with their views of what they are, I will not exhibit any fear or anxiety. Throw a couple of wasps in the room and you will witness a true display of a phobia Edited January 4, 2022 by carbon dioxide
Analytics Posted January 4, 2022 Posted January 4, 2022 36 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said: Another example of the word transphobia being used incorrectly. True transphobia is an irrational fear of transgender people. Not agreeing with the transgender position or asserting there are only two genders, gender is eternal and biological gender is established at birth is not a phobia. Having a view, opinion, and position is not a phobia. Asserting that biological sex is strictly binary and that it is established at birth may or may not be transphobia. But it is scientifically ignorant. That's my point.
Nofear Posted January 4, 2022 Posted January 4, 2022 4 minutes ago, Analytics said: Asserting that biological sex is strictly binary and that it is established at birth may or may not be transphobia. But it is scientifically ignorant. That's my point. Equating ignorance with a phobia is a category mistake (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category_mistake) demonstrating a certain level of scientifically ignorant thinking as well. 1
Calm Posted January 4, 2022 Posted January 4, 2022 2 minutes ago, Nofear said: Equating ignorance with a phobia is a category mistake (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category_mistake) demonstrating a certain level of scientifically ignorant thinking as well. Thank you. Out of points, so expressing appreciation this way as overbroad use of phobia these days bugs me. It confuses the issues imo. And those who are ignorant in one way will likely dismiss any correction if their ignorance is mislabeled just as they would likely get frustrated and quit seeing a doctor who consistently misdiagnosed them in one area even if they were decent in treating another. 2
sunstoned Posted January 4, 2022 Posted January 4, 2022 4 hours ago, bluebell said: I don't think that science is really saying that though. I mean, you and I know that they exist because we see and hear people who are transgender. We don't use science (as it's generally understood) to gain that knowledge though. I agree with this. 2
SeekingUnderstanding Posted January 4, 2022 Posted January 4, 2022 3 hours ago, carbon dioxide said: Another example of the word transphobia being used incorrectly. True transphobia is an irrational fear of transgender people. Not agreeing with the transgender position or asserting there are only two genders, gender is eternal and biological gender is established at birth is not a phobia. Having a view, opinion, and position is not a phobia. Um, transphobia - irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against transgender people https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transphobia You don’t get to define the language.
SeekingUnderstanding Posted January 4, 2022 Posted January 4, 2022 2 hours ago, Calm said: Thank you. Out of points, so expressing appreciation this way as overbroad use of phobia these days bugs me. It confuses the issues imo. And those who are ignorant in one way will likely dismiss any correction if their ignorance is mislabeled just as they would likely get frustrated and quit seeing a doctor who consistently misdiagnosed them in one area even if they were decent in treating another. Do you have a better word?
Calm Posted January 4, 2022 Posted January 4, 2022 (edited) 24 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: Um, transphobia - irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against transgender people https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transphobia You don’t get to define the language. Yes, the definition of phobia has expanded to include discrimination for transgender and other human categories (brain fog, so that is the word I am using), but phobias for nonhuman things don’t include discrimination that I am aware of (least it didn’t in my psych classes which are no doubt very out of date in many ways), such as discrimination against spiders, flying, open spaces, etc….that usage doesn’t really make sense. I believe the choice to make discrimination as part of phobias of humans mainstream was a poor one. But it is mainstream and I am not going to stop anyone using it. I just wish for the sake of better communication the change had not occurred because I think too many conversations will get derailed by “I am not afraid of transgender individuals”, “not afraid of homosexuals” etc instead of dealing with the core problem, discrimination against these and other groups. Edited January 5, 2022 by Calm 1
Calm Posted January 4, 2022 Posted January 4, 2022 (edited) 12 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: Do you have a better word? Discrimination for the action, prejudice for the cause and if you want to underline the irrationality, irrational prejudice. Or use bigotry. Edited January 4, 2022 by Calm 1
bluebell Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 36 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: Um, transphobia - irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against transgender people https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transphobia You don’t get to define the language. I would argue that disagreeing with transgender people is not the same thing as discriminating against them though. Is there a definition that accurately applies transphobia for people who disagree? 2
carbon dioxide Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: Um, transphobia - irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against transgender people https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transphobia You don’t get to define the language. The Webster’s dictionary has a horrific pattern of changing meanings of words due to political correctness. A person who has a phobia of wasps like myself is not basing that phobia on discrimination. I have no agreement with transgenders in terms of their views but I don’t think they should be bothered in regular life. When it comes to locker room and bathroom issues yes I do discriminate. To me it does not matter what a person thinks they are, it matters what they are. A white guy may identify as a 7 foot black NBA center but my eyes tell me it’s a white dude. However it changes nothing regarding my original point. I disagree with many things in life. I may even discriminate but those things are not based on a phobia. My wife hates Donald Trump. She disagrees with most he stands for but to assert she is MAGAphobic or Trumpphobic is absurd. My views regard transgender stuff is not based on a fear but just one of facts how I see it. To me, a transgender woman is a man. He is no more correct than a man who says 1 + 1 = 3. I just can’t go there Edited January 5, 2022 by carbon dioxide
SeekingUnderstanding Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 25 minutes ago, bluebell said: I would argue that disagreeing with transgender people is not the same thing as discriminating against them though. Is there a definition that accurately applies transphobia for people who disagree? If I express the opinion that women should never work outside the home and those that do sin, but do not impose my will on others am I a misogynist?
SeekingUnderstanding Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 Just now, carbon dioxide said: The Webster’s dictionary has a horrific pattern of changing meanings of words due to political correctness. A person who what’s a phobia of wasps like myself is not basing that phobia on discrimination. A dictionary doesn’t define words, it describes how words are used. 2
Vanguard Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 (edited) 10 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: If I express the opinion that women should never work outside the home and those that do sin, but do not impose my will on others am I a misogynist? That is the crux of it. Can another have only an opinion no matter how controversial it is but still not be considered homophobic/racist/misogynist, etc as long as those opinions do not translate into taking action against said group? Or is there no meaningful distinction between the spoken word and the action? Edited January 5, 2022 by Vanguard
Scott Lloyd Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 8 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said: The Webster’s dictionary has a horrific pattern of changing meanings of words due to political correctness. A person who has a phobia of wasps like myself is not basing that phobia on discrimination. “Webster’s” is not copyrighted, so it has become something of a generic appellation. I know of at least two competing publishing companies that use the name “Webster” in their dictionary titles: Merriam-Webster and Webster’s New World. I agree with you on the former, but not so much the latter. Webster’s New World is less apt to be blown about by the winds of political correctness.
Scott Lloyd Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 14 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: A dictionary doesn’t define words, it describes how words are used. It depends on the dictionary. Carbon Dioxide is quite right about Merriam-Webster being inordinately subject to political correctness as opposed to normative meaning.
SeekingUnderstanding Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said: It depends on the dictionary. Carbon Dioxide is quite right about Merriam-Webster being inordinately subject to political correctness as opposed to normative meaning. I’m sorry but Latter-day Saints lost access to this argument when they asked the world to stop calling them Mormon. If that’s not PC I don’t know what is.
SeekingUnderstanding Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 8 minutes ago, Vanguard said: That is the crux of it. Can another have only an opinion no matter how controversial it is but still not be considered homophobic/racist/misogynist, etc as long as those opinions do not translate into taking action against said group? Or is there no meaningful distinction between the spoken word and the action? So you want eat your cake and have it too. I want to preach from the roof tops that “Mormons” are baby eaters and going to hell, but then chafe at the label anti-Mormon?
Scott Lloyd Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 (edited) 4 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: I’m sorry but Latter-day Saints lost access to this argument when they asked the world to stop calling them Mormon. If that’s not PC I don’t know what is. More tu quoque fallacy. That seems to be quite popular around these parts. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque Edited January 5, 2022 by Scott Lloyd
SeekingUnderstanding Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said: More tu quoque fallacy. That seems to be quite popular around these parts. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque Not a fallacy if it’s done intentionally. I am calling Latter-day Saints hypocrites if they both wish for the world to eschew the label “Mormon” while refusing to address someone by their preferred pronouns, and complaining about the world run amok in political correctness. I wasn’t saying anything about the merits of the argument, only that people in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. 2
SeekingUnderstanding Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Calm said: Or use bigotry. This is my go to word choice. Edited January 5, 2022 by SeekingUnderstanding
Scott Lloyd Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 18 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: Not a fallacy if it’s done intentionally. Come again? Under whose definition is a fallacy not a fallacy if done intentionally?
carbon dioxide Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 18 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: Not a fallacy if it’s done intentionally. I am calling Latter-day Saints hypocrites if they both wish for the world to eschew the label “Mormon” while refusing to address someone by their preferred pronouns, and complaining about the world run amok in political correctness. I wasn’t saying anything about the merits of the argument, only that people in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. I think that is fair. We can ask people to call us a certain way but we can’t demand it. Freedom of speech demands that we get to choose the words we want to say. Nobody tells us we must use this pronoun over that. If someone want to use the word Mormon, that is their right.
Scott Lloyd Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 (edited) 24 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: I am calling Latter-day Saints hypocrites if they both wish for the world to eschew the label “Mormon” while refusing to address someone by their preferred pronouns, and complaining about the world run amok in political correctness. I don’t make any demands on “the world” in this regard. I only say that professing Latter-day Saints, who should know better, ought to follow the teaching of the prophet in this matter. Edited January 5, 2022 by Scott Lloyd
MiserereNobis Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 50 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: A dictionary doesn’t define words, it describes how words are used. I was about to post that as an English teacher, it was my duty to point out that dictionaries do not tell us how we should use words, but instead they simply report on how words are being used. If enough people are using the word transphobia to mean discrimination against transgenders, then a good dictionary will include that in the definition. 4
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