The Nehor Posted January 2, 2022 Posted January 2, 2022 On 1/1/2022 at 2:01 AM, Navidad said: Is the handbook a guidebook (guidance) or a rule book (direction)? Can it, must it, should it, might it be followed in a local situation? Does it get voted on by anyone? When it is changed, who changes it and who approves the changes? How are the changes announced to the membership? Sorry for all the questions. I sometimes get confused by the terminology. My faith group doesn't have anything like a "handbook" so I am confused a bit about it. Thanks. It is a rule book. There are some guidelines that are flexible but it is usually clear where there is wiggle room and where there is not. It should be followed at the local level. Compliance varies. It is written and changed by leadership in Salt Lake. Apostles are involved and they generally dictate what needs to change and give approval. The changes are not usually announced. Sometimes the leadership gets a notification if the changes are extensive or there is a major revision. It used to be a semi-confidential book that only leaders got and was split into two books for different levels of leadership. In recent years they consolidated it all into one book and gave all members access to it online. It is still mostly used by leaders who turn to it if they have a specific question or are dealing with an unusual situation. Some of it is ‘intuitively’ known by long time members who have been around but things are spelled out for areas where the church is young and leaders less experienced.
SeekingUnderstanding Posted January 2, 2022 Posted January 2, 2022 On 12/31/2021 at 6:31 PM, MustardSeed said: It’s hard to feel that caring for trans folk until your family members face it etc It’s really not. Many non-bigoted people do it every day.
Popular Post SeekingUnderstanding Posted January 2, 2022 Popular Post Posted January 2, 2022 On 12/31/2021 at 10:12 PM, rongo said: True hermaphrodites will be resurrected with a body matching their eternal gender. That's what I believe. Even as a member I was astonished at this sentiment. I mean God is out there. He allows for all types of horrible things on this earth. Child rape? Sure. Natural disasters that kill hundreds of thousands of people? Yep. Children born with all manner of deformities? Yes. “True hermaphrodites”? Absolutely. Misaligning a female spirit into a male physical body? Hell no! Of course not. God would never allow that to happen! 5
juliann Posted January 3, 2022 Posted January 3, 2022 I really really wish the church would stop using “gender” when they are referring to a person’s biological sex. 3
Peacefully Posted January 3, 2022 Posted January 3, 2022 2 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: Even as a member I was astonished at this sentiment. I mean God is out there. He allows for all types of horrible things on this earth. Child rape? Sure. Natural disasters that kill hundreds of thousands of people? Yep. Children born with all manner of deformities? Yes. “True hermaphrodites”? Absolutely. Misaligning a female spirit into a male physical body? Hell no! Of course not. God would never allow that to happen! I pondered today on this type of thinking that seems to be prevalent in the church. How can a people who can find all kinds of excuses for polygamy not find any space for monogamous, homosexual couples. It’s like every way a person can be different and keep the commandments to the best of their abilities is good enough until it is something that makes people uncomfortable like homosexuality or transgenderism. 3
carbon dioxide Posted January 3, 2022 Posted January 3, 2022 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Peacefully said: I pondered today on this type of thinking that seems to be prevalent in the church. How can a people who can find all kinds of excuses for polygamy not find any space for monogamous, homosexual couples. It’s like every way a person can be different and keep the commandments to the best of their abilities is good enough until it is something that makes people uncomfortable like homosexuality or transgenderism. As a libertarian leaning and pro agency person I has space for anything that does not infringe on another persons agency or rights. So I can support legal gay marriage, polygamy, all drug use, prostitution, etc. if a transgender wants to change their name and all that fine. However those that are not transgender have rights as well. We have a right to choose the pronouns we want to say and determine for ourselves what is boy and girl. In terms of polygamy, we can find a religious and scriptural argument for it. Gay marriage? I see as much as scriptural argument for that as a man marrying a ham and turkey sandwich. It is far easier to make an argument that the church should accept polygamists over those in same sex marriages. Edited January 3, 2022 by carbon dioxide 1
carbon dioxide Posted January 3, 2022 Posted January 3, 2022 1 hour ago, juliann said: I really really wish the church would stop using “gender” when they are referring to a person’s biological sex. Most people use gender and sex interchangeably. I do as well and I am not changing what has worked for me for 52 years while I have been on this planet. I think the church usage is constant to what most people have used since 1830 1
Peacefully Posted January 3, 2022 Posted January 3, 2022 (edited) 23 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said: As a libertarian leaning and pro agency person I has space for anything that does not infringe on another persons agency or rights. So I can support legal gay marriage, polygamy, all drug use, prostitution, etc. if a transgender wants to change their name and all that fine. However those that are not transgender have rights as well. We have a right to choose the pronouns we want to say and determine for ourselves what is boy and girl. In terms of polygamy, we can find a religious and scriptural argument for it. Gay marriage? I see as much as scriptural argument for that as a man marrying a ham and turkey sandwich. It is far easier to make an argument that the church should accept polygamists over those in same sex marriages. I think part of it is I didn’t grow up in the church so polygamy doesn’t sit well with me. I’ve tried to tell myself that it is used by Heavenly Father when he needs to raise up a righteous generation quickly, but the more I ponder on it, I think God can make something good out of anything we humans mess up. On the other hand, I believe many gay people are born that way and Heavenly Father doesn’t make mistakes so there should be no reason two men or two women who are born this way shouldn’t be able to get together and share their lives. Even if they are given full fellowship in the church, who are they hurting? Edited January 3, 2022 by Peacefully 2
carbon dioxide Posted January 3, 2022 Posted January 3, 2022 3 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: Even as a member I was astonished at this sentiment. I mean God is out there. He allows for all types of horrible things on this earth. Child rape? Sure. Natural disasters that kill hundreds of thousands of people? Yep. Children born with all manner of deformities? Yes. “True hermaphrodites”? Absolutely. Misaligning a female spirit into a male physical body? Hell no! Of course not. God would never allow that to happen! God allows us to use agency for our choices. That has nothing to do with male spirits entering female bodies. If that is happening, whoever is in charge of overseeing that the process needs to be a fired now. What angels are involved in that are extremely incompetent.
carbon dioxide Posted January 3, 2022 Posted January 3, 2022 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Peacefully said: I think part of it is I didn’t grow up in the church so polygamy doesn’t sit well with me. I’ve tried to tell myself that it is used by Heavenly Father when he needs to raise up a righteous generation quickly, but the more I ponder on it, I think God can make something good out if anything is humans mess up. On the other hand, I believe many gay people are born that way and Heavenly Father doesn’t make mistakes so there should be no reason two men or two women who are born this way shouldn’t be able to get together and share their lives. Even if they are given full fellowship in the church, who are they hurting? Who are polygamists hurting if they are given fellowship in the church? We can find many actions that others do that do not harm us. If a member chooses to be a porn star, they are not harming me or you. Edited January 3, 2022 by carbon dioxide -1
SeekingUnderstanding Posted January 3, 2022 Posted January 3, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, carbon dioxide said: God allows us to use agency for our choices. That has nothing to do with male spirits entering female bodies. If that is happening, whoever is in charge of overseeing that the process needs to be a fired now. What angels are involved in that are extremely incompetent. The same angels that allowed men women and children in the hundreds of thousands to die in natural disasters? The same angels that allowed conjoined twins that don’t survive birth? The same angels that allow tens of thousands of children to die slowly and painfully off cancer each year? That’s competence to you, but a misaligned spirit, that’s over the line. Really!? Edited January 3, 2022 by SeekingUnderstanding 2
Scott Lloyd Posted January 3, 2022 Posted January 3, 2022 5 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: It’s really not. Many non-bigoted people do it every day. This agree-with-me-or-you’re-a-bigot attitude gets old fast. 3
Hamba Tuhan Posted January 3, 2022 Posted January 3, 2022 7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: This agree-with-me-or-you’re-a-bigot attitude gets old fast. As does the suggestion that my concerns in relation to novel sexual identities is an expression of personal 'discomfort'. 1
Duncan Posted January 3, 2022 Posted January 3, 2022 27 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: This agree-with-me-or-you’re-a-bigot attitude gets old fast. or the conservative version disagree with me and you're an apostate-i'm trying to remember what the church called gay marriages participants, do you remember? 3
carbon dioxide Posted January 3, 2022 Posted January 3, 2022 54 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: The same angels that allowed men women and children in the hundreds of thousands to die in natural disasters? The same angels that allowed conjoined twins that don’t survive birth? The same angels that allow tens of thousands of children to die slowly and painfully off cancer each year? That’s competence to you, but a misaligned spirit, that’s over the line. Really!? Apples and oranges. Mortality and agency comes with the idea that bad things will happen and disease like cancer will occur. There is no reason to believe anyone is coordinating who gets cancer and who does not. That is completely different than male spirits accidentally going into female bodies. If we are going to entertain that idea the spirits of one gender from the premortal world are finding themselves in the bodies of the opposite gender then let’s not stop there. Perhaps spirits are ending up in the wrong species as well. My dog actually could be one of the spirit daughters of God but things went wrong and found herself in the body of a canine. Why not? 1
Scott Lloyd Posted January 3, 2022 Posted January 3, 2022 18 minutes ago, Duncan said: or the conservative version disagree with me and you're an apostate-i'm trying to remember what the church called gay marriages participants, do you remember? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque
Peacefully Posted January 3, 2022 Posted January 3, 2022 2 hours ago, carbon dioxide said: Who are polygamists hurting if they are given fellowship in the church? We can find many actions that others do that do not harm us. If a member chooses to be a porn star, they are not harming me or you. You had to go there?
Duncan Posted January 3, 2022 Posted January 3, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque so, we are just supposed to forget what the church called gay marriage participants and hosts of conservative members of the church are allowed to have free reign of what they say and do to people who disagree with them? Edited January 3, 2022 by Duncan 3
Calm Posted January 3, 2022 Posted January 3, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, carbon dioxide said: That is completely different than male spirits accidentally going into female bodies. What is the difference in having a body that is missing nonsexual body parts or having too many or having dysfunctional parts including organs, which doesn’t match our eternal selves and having sexual body parts present that don’t match our eternal selves? In both cases it would seem programming went wrong in the building of the physical housing for the spirit, something that we are taught is corrected in the resurrection. In both cases, the individual spirit has to learn to adapt and endure. Edited January 3, 2022 by Calm 1
The Nehor Posted January 3, 2022 Posted January 3, 2022 3 hours ago, carbon dioxide said: God allows us to use agency for our choices. That has nothing to do with male spirits entering female bodies. If that is happening, whoever is in charge of overseeing that the process needs to be a fired now. What angels are involved in that are extremely incompetent. You would think creating a hermaphrodite would get you fired too. Or putting a spirit in a body born in a near-vegetative state. Or putting a spirit in a body with the brain wires crossed resulting in psychopathy. If God allows those levels of screw ups routinely I see no reason God would not allow something that is (by most standards) less extreme. 2
sunstoned Posted January 3, 2022 Posted January 3, 2022 8 hours ago, carbon dioxide said: Most people use gender and sex interchangeably. I do as well and I am not changing what has worked for me for 52 years while I have been on this planet. I think the church usage is constant to what most people have used since 1830 I feel the same way about using the name "mormon".
SeekingUnderstanding Posted January 3, 2022 Posted January 3, 2022 9 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: This agree-with-me-or-you’re-a-bigot attitude gets old fast. So does the whole “counterfeit” lifestyles, “living in sin”, and the threat of divine punishment (which is severe enough that God calls it Eternal punishment despite the fact that it ends) for disagreeing with religious people. Get used to it.
SeekingUnderstanding Posted January 3, 2022 Posted January 3, 2022 (edited) 9 hours ago, carbon dioxide said: Apples and oranges. Mortality and agency comes with the idea that bad things will happen and disease like cancer will occur. There is no reason to believe anyone is coordinating who gets cancer and who does not. That is completely different than male spirits accidentally going into female bodies. So an embryo that picks up an extra X chromosome is completely feasible and shows no incompetence. An embryo that only has one X chromosome, that is just a sign of our fallen world. But accidentally getting your Dad’s Y chromosome when you were supposed to get the X is completely out of the question. That is a completely different kind of error than anything else we have ever seen on this planet. Edited January 3, 2022 by SeekingUnderstanding 1
BRMC Posted January 3, 2022 Posted January 3, 2022 53 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: So does the whole “counterfeit” lifestyles, “living in sin”, and the threat of divine punishment (which is severe enough that God calls it Eternal punishment despite the fact that it ends) for disagreeing with religious people. Get used to it. It's easy to avoid. Just log off the religious forum and do you.
SeekingUnderstanding Posted January 3, 2022 Posted January 3, 2022 (edited) 2 minutes ago, BRMC said: It's easy to avoid. Just log off the religious forum and do you. I’m not the one complaining about it. If you don’t want to hear people call a position bigoted, don’t hang out on a forum that encourages discussion. Go hang out in an echo chamber. You do you. Edited January 3, 2022 by SeekingUnderstanding 1
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