Relationship with Heavenly Parents

[katherine the great]

3 hours ago, MacGyver said:

What about a situation where it is absolutely certain that the murderer is guilty? Say, a man is caught on camera raping and then torturing a 10 year old girl to death. His finger prints are all over the murder weapon. His DNA is found inside the girl. When the police go to arrest him, he shoots and kills an officer and wounds another, crippling him for life.

Would you consider putting this person to death barbaric?

I would consider it completely appropriate. As long as a person could possibly be rehabilitated I don’t object to life in prison w/o parole but I just see no reason to keep remorseless sociopathic killers on the planet. God created them and is the only one who understands them- let Him deal with them.  If someone raped and murdered my daughter I would want them dead.

[MacGyver]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

Why should someone who murders by put to death?  You think it is because God says so.  

Yes, I believe God said they should be put to death. But I also believe it is just, even if God didn't say so. 

 

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

But the Book of Mormon, which you believe is God's word, has a people that would have rather died then killed in self defense.  That story seems to support that such a course was noble.

Yes, this true. But these were people who were previously blood thirsty and had made a covenant with God to never shed the blood of man again. They were also about to break this covenant in order to defend their country, but Helaman talked them out of it. So they sent their sons to go fight and kill instead. 

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

As I have noted I have visceral reactions to such heinous crimes and my gut reaction would be capital punishment. But if I am true to my personal ethics on this I would still say life in prison, no parole.

So do you consider it to be barbaric to put them to death for such a heinous crime, or do you just prefer life in prison?

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, BRMC said:

That's why we have a Prophet.

For what it is worth. My conclusion is the LDS prophets and apostles don't have anymore insight to any God being's thoughts then any other human. 

[Teancum]

4 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

Yes, I believe God said they should be put to death.

Yep.  But that is not a reason for the US government to apply the death penalty.

4 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

 

 

 

But I also believe it is just, even if God didn't say so. 

Yes I understand that.  

 

4 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

 

Yes, this true. But these were people who were previously blood thirsty and had made a covenant with God to never shed the blood of man again. They were also about to break this covenant in order to defend their country, but Helaman talked them out of it. So they sent their sons to go fight and kill instead.

Ah so it was quite fine for their sons but not for them?

4 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

 

 

So do you consider it to be barbaric to put them to death for such a heinous crime, or do you just prefer life in prison?

I have told you numerous times I believe the death penalty is barbaric. I imagine I could be convinced in a very few cases.  But not most.

[BRMC]

35 minutes ago, Teancum said:

For what it is worth. My conclusion is the LDS prophets and apostles don't have anymore insight to any God being's thoughts then any other human. 

It's not worth a lot, since you're incorrect.

[Teancum]

17 minutes ago, BRMC said:

It's not worth a lot, since you're incorrect.

Keep telling yourself that. From Joseph Smith's failed prophecies, his polygamy debacle and the priesthood bad, well that is just scratching the surface about how unreliable LDS prophets and apostles are.  But we digress.....

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, katherine the great said:

I would consider it completely appropriate. As long as a person could possibly be rehabilitated I don’t object to life in prison w/o parole but I just see no reason to keep remorseless sociopathic killers on the planet. God created them and is the only one who understands them- let Him deal with them.  If someone raped and murdered my daughter I would want them dead.

I would likely feel the same way.

[MacGyver]

4 hours ago, Teancum said:

But that is not a reason for the US government to apply the death penalty.

If the citizens of the US are in favor of it and the purpose is to bring about justice, then that's a good reason, even if God didn't say it.

4 hours ago, Teancum said:

Ah so it was quite fine for their sons but not for them?

Yes, it was. Have you forgotten the story? Their sons hadn't previously participated in the killings that were part of the blood thirsty Lamanite culture. They hadn't made a covenant with God to never shed the blood of man again as part of their repentance.

4 hours ago, Teancum said:

I have told you numerous times I believe the death penalty is barbaric. I imagine I could be convinced in a very few cases.  But not most.

I guess I'm still trying to understand why you find the death penalty to be barbaric. I know you said that you don’t think it serves useful purpose besides vengeance, but that doesn't seem like a good enough reason for you to say it's barbaric.

Maybe, I just don't understand your belief system. You clearly reject both Mormonism and Christianity. You don't believe in the God of the Bible or the other standard works. What God do you believe in? What do you consider to be the purpose of life and what do you believe happens when you die?

If you could explain this, maybe I will be able to understand why your code of ethics is strictly opposed to the death penalty. 

Edited December 28, 2021 by MacGyver

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, katherine the great said:

I would consider it completely appropriate. As long as a person could possibly be rehabilitated I don’t object to life in prison w/o parole but I just see no reason to keep remorseless sociopathic killers on the planet. God created them and is the only one who understands them- let Him deal with them.  If someone raped and murdered my daughter I would want them dead.

I would feel the same way. One reason I am glad the justice system doesn’t let the victim or those that love them choose the punishment.

[JLHPROF]

6 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I would feel the same way. One reason I am glad the justice system doesn’t let the victim or those that love them choose the punishment.

Except restitution is a gospel principle and a key part of repentance.  Who other than those most wronged receive restitution?

[BRMC]

12 hours ago, Teancum said:

Keep telling yourself that. From Joseph Smith's failed prophecies, his polygamy debacle and the priesthood bad, well that is just scratching the surface about how unreliable LDS prophets and apostles are.  But we digress.....

We didn't digress.  You're just on a Latter-day Saint page insulting Latter-day Saints.   It's fine.

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, BRMC said:

We didn't digress.  You're just on a Latter-day Saint page insulting Latter-day Saints.   It's fine.

You seem to have pretty thin skin. I see you are going down the board nanny approach again.  Apparently the concept of a discussion board alludes you.  This board is not a safe place for believing  Latter-day Saints, as has been pointed out to you.  The mods do keep a tight reign though and can ban someone from a thread it they get out of line or evene the board.  While I have been banned from some threads here and there I am still on the board.  Ah well.

[BRMC]

21 minutes ago, Teancum said:

You seem to have pretty thin skin. I see you are going down the board nanny approach again.  Apparently the concept of a discussion board alludes you.  This board is not a safe place for believing  Latter-day Saints, as has been pointed out to you.  The mods do keep a tight reign though and can ban someone from a thread it they get out of line or evene the board.  While I have been banned from some threads here and there I am still on the board.  Ah well.

Not at all.  I guess I just have a higher regard for manners and politeness.

[katherine the great]

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I would feel the same way. One reason I am glad the justice system doesn’t let the victim or those that love them choose the punishment.

They can’t choose the punishment but they can give victim impact statements that may (but don’t  usually seem to) influence the punishment.  I can think of one situation where I wish the victim had more say in the punishment. That is when the  perp is a one time offender and is the parent or child of the victim. I read about a Texas case (I think) where the son killed the mother and other son but the father survived. The state sentenced him to the death penalty but through the father’s pleas for mercy, at the last moment it was commuted to life in prison (probably in order to avoid inflicting more pain on the lone survivor). I thought that was the right decision in the circumstances.  

Edited December 28, 2021 by katherine the great

[Teancum]

13 hours ago, MacGyver said:

If the citizens of the US are in favor of it and the purpose is to bring about justice, then that's a good reason, even if God didn't say it.

And currently capital punishment is legal in the USA.

 

13 hours ago, MacGyver said:

Yes, it was. Have you forgotten the story? Their sons hadn't previously participated in the killings that were part of the blood thirsty Lamanite culture. They hadn't made a covenant with God to never shed the blood of man again as part of their repentance.

Yes I know the story.

13 hours ago, MacGyver said:

I guess I'm still trying to understand why you find the death penalty to be barbaric. I know you said that you don’t think it serves useful purpose besides vengeance, but that doesn't seem like a good enough reason for you to say it's barbaric.

My goodness how many times do I have to say this. Murder is evil. A horrible thing. Even if you murder the murderer.  And I think deliberate capital punishment is much different than self defense or war time killing. Though one could argue war time killing can be murder on the parts of the aggressor. I certainly think the Nazi leadership were murderers.

 

13 hours ago, MacGyver said:

Maybe, I just don't understand your belief system. You clearly reject both Mormonism and Christianity.

At this point I am border line agnostic.  I am open still be skeptical of the theistic claims of self proclaimed revealed religions.

 

13 hours ago, MacGyver said:

 

You don't believe in the God of the Bible or the other standard works. 

Not currently though there are some things of worth in them.

 

13 hours ago, MacGyver said:

 

What God do you believe in?

I don't believe in any particular God currently.

13 hours ago, MacGyver said:

 

 

What do you consider to be the purpose of life and what do you believe happens when you die?

What  I think the purpose of life is would be a topic for another thread.  I do not think you need a god or religion to find purpose in life.  I do not know what happens when you die and nobody does.  THey may have faith that what their religion teaches happens when they die but nobody really knows. I hope there is some sort of existence beyond this life but I do not know.

13 hours ago, MacGyver said:

If you could explain this, maybe I will be able to understand why your code of ethics is strictly opposed to the death penalty. 

I believe in doing our best to do no harm to others or ourselves.

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, BRMC said:

Not at all.  I guess I just have a higher regard for manners and politeness.

I would have never guessed based on your postings here.  Manners and politeness does not seem prominent in your posts especially to those who don't conform to your beliefs.

[katherine the great]

19 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I would have never guessed based on your postings here.  Manners and politeness does not seem prominent in your posts especially to those who don't conform to your beliefs.

I’m not quite sure if he’s the kettle or the pot. 🤔 

[ttribe]

2 hours ago, BRMC said:

Not at all.  I guess I just have a higher regard for manners and politeness.

[CA Steve]

58 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

I’m not quite sure if he’s the kettle or the pot. 🤔 

I thought he was the whole kit and caboodle. 😝

[Olmec Donald]

The 11th Article of Faith says: 

"We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."

Here's what someone "following the dictates of their own conscience" looks like: 

 

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Murder is evil. A horrible thing. Even if you murder the murderer.  And I think deliberate capital punishment is much different than self defense or war time killing... 

At this point I am border line agnostic.  I am open still be skeptical of the theistic claims of self proclaimed revealed religions.

Not currently though there are some things of worth in [the scriptures].

I don't believe in any particular God currently.

What I think the purpose of life is would be a topic for another thread.  I do not think you need a god or religion to find purpose in life.  I do not know what happens when you die and nobody does.  THey may have faith that what their religion teaches happens when they die but nobody really knows. I hope there is some sort of existence beyond this life but I do not know.

I believe in doing our best to do no harm to others or ourselves.

 

 

[BRMC]

21 minutes ago, Olmec Donald said:

The 11th Article of Faith says: 

"We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."

Here's what someone "following the dictates of their own conscience" looks like: 

 

 

 

That's one example.  We can find many examples that show both good and horrific instances of people exercising that privilege.

[MacGyver]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

My goodness how many times do I have to say this. Murder is evil. A horrible thing. Even if you murder the murderer. 

Why do you consider capital punishment of a murderer to be murder? 

The definition of murder is the "unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another." 

If capital punishment is allowed by law, especially in the case of heinous crime, how is that murder? It doesn't fit the definition.

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

And I think deliberate capital punishment is much different than self defense or war time killing.

Why do you consider this to be much different than capital punishment? In many cases killing in self defense or war time killing is intentional. 

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

What  I think the purpose of life is would be a topic for another thread.  I do not think you need a god or religion to find purpose in life.  

I agree that one doesn't need to believe in God or participate in one of the major world religions to find purpose in life. But I do wonder what purpose a former believer in Mormonism or Christianity, who is now agnostic, finds in life. How does your view on the purpose of life make capital punishment barbaric?

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

I do not know what happens when you die... I hope there is some sort of existence beyond this life but I do not know.

What do you think happens when you die? I think this belief is connected to your belief that capital punishment is barbaric and completely unacceptable, even in the case of a heinous murderer. 

I understand why a Mormon/Christian would be opposed to capital punishment on the grounds that this might deny the murderer the chance to repent and avoid hell fire. But I don't understand why an agnostic person would find capital punishment to be unacceptable in all cases. You don't believe in hell do you? You don't seem to have any clear belief of what happens after you die and if there is any type of existence after this life, so why is capital punishment such a big no no for you?

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

I believe in doing our best to do no harm to others or ourselves.

Doesn't life in prison without the possibility of parole (or any other punishment for a crime for that matter) harm the person? If you believe we shouldn't harm anyone, why is a lifetime prison sentence okay, but the death penalty isn't?

[ksfisher]

1 minute ago, MacGyver said:

Doesn't life in prison without the possibility of parole (or any other punishment for a crime for that matter) harm the person? If you believe we shouldn't harm anyone, why is a lifetime prison sentence okay, but the death penalty isn't?

One thing life in prison does is protects society from the criminal without taking life.

Life in prison allows the possibility of repentance as well.

[MacGyver]

1 hour ago, Olmec Donald said:

The 11th Article of Faith says: 

"We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."

I don't think anyone here is saying that you, or Teancum, or anyone else doesn't have the right to follow their own conscience and worship how, where, or what they may. 

Teancum is very critical of Mormonism and Christianity. That is his right. I'm trying to understand his beliefs and why he believes the way he does. 

[MacGyver]

11 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

One thing life in prison does is protects society from the criminal without taking life.

Sure, but is it truly just to allow a murderer to live, after having murdered another human being? Why should the murderer be allowed to live, when they took this away from another?

11 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Life in prison allows the possibility of repentance as well.

I understand this view, but it really all depends on what is required of a murderer to gain forgiveness. If God requires that they be put to death and suffer in hell before they can be forgiven, then keeping them alive doesn't help them repent. It may even impede their repentance by prohibiting them from making any restitution for their crime in this life.

Edited December 28, 2021 by MacGyver