Relationship with Heavenly Parents

[Teancum]

18 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

I read one of those books once. They are not correct scripturally speaking from a Mormon point of view. Those guys are Eevee's that wrote them. They think they're going to get to skip out on the Great Tribulation and get raptured.

Well there are pre-trib and post trib believers amongst Christians. Thos EVs believe that true Christians will be spared the tribulation period.  However those who become Christians during the tribulation period will have to live through it and suffer.

[Teancum]

13 hours ago, MacGyver said:

It's certainly very strict, but how is it barbaric?

iF you need to ask I cannot help you.

[Teancum]

13 hours ago, MacGyver said:

Yes and no.

There are higher laws and lower laws. God has to work within the framework of eternal laws, but can switch between higher and lower laws as he sees fit in order to best bring about the immortality and eternal life of man. 

Sounds pretty subjective to me.

[MacGyver]

3 minutes ago, Teancum said:

iF you need to ask I cannot help you.

So no explanation for why you think the death penalty for adultery is barbaric then?

[Teancum]

2 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

So no explanation for why you think the death penalty for adultery is barbaric then?

None is needed. If you think stoning someone for sexual activity that is consensual is a crime worthy of stoning, now or ever I think your view is warped and barbaric.  I oppose capital punishment in general. I don't think consensual sexual activity is worthy of death nor a crime.  Not now, not historically not ever.  I think killing people for crimes is barbaric.  Just like I think cutting off hands for theft is barbaric.  These rules were written by nomads that herded goats and wandered the desert. I think they were bronze age.  Their rules reflected a culture I would like to think that humans have grown up and away from.  But given "honor" killing still happen in a good part of the world, and given that you think such things were a ok and others like you may as well I am probably wrong.

[MacGyver]

20 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I think killing people for crimes is barbaric.

So you think the death penalty is always barbaric no matter the crime then? 

[sunstoned]

6 hours ago, BRMC said:

You're looking at things from a mortal perspective.  From an eternal perspective, things look much different.

Dude, murder is murder. Now, do I believe there is a omnipotent being somewhere that gives his subjects laws and rules, and doesn't follow them himself? Do I believe there is an omnipotent being that commits mass genocide on his subjects (children?) because they don't worship him in the right way?  No I done.  The mental gymnastics needed for that are too much for me.  What I do believe in is bronze age nomadic tribes writing down their myths and justifications for their genocidal actions and claiming they commanded to do so by their gods.

[sunstoned]

21 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

So you think the death penalty is always barbaric no matter the crime then? 

I will let Teancum speak for himself, but my thoughts are the the death penalty is barbaric and there is no evidence that it serves as a deterrent.

 

https://www.aclu.org/other/death-penalty-questions-and-answers#:~:text=A%3A No%2C there is no,than long terms of imprisonment.&text=And states that have abolished,penalty has no deterrent effect.

[Olmec Donald]

24 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

So you think the death penalty is always barbaric no matter the crime then? 

This question wasn't directed at me, but imo the death penalty is wrong.  I do not see that it serves any constructive purpose.

Edited December 24, 2021 by Olmec Donald

[BRMC]

1 hour ago, sunstoned said:

Dude, murder is murder. Now, do I believe there is a omnipotent being somewhere that gives his subjects laws and rules, and doesn't follow them himself? Do I believe there is an omnipotent being that commits mass genocide on his subjects (children?) because they don't worship him in the right way?  No I done.  The mental gymnastics needed for that are too much for me.  What I do believe in is bronze age nomadic tribes writing down their myths and justifications for their genocidal actions and claiming they commanded to do so by their gods.

Murder is murder to you.  Why would murder be murder to someone with an eternal perspective?   You aren't dead, your mortal body is.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Olmec Donald said:

do not see that it serves any constructive purpose.

The only possible demonstrated useful purpose IMO is to give victims or those who survive them a greater sense of safety.  Some have problems knowing the monster stills breathes the same air they do.  Or fearing and hating that somehow they might get out of jail.

But I wonder if the prolonged justice process required for death penalties (for very good reasons IMO, in fact I would argue at times there should be more protections allowed) is more damaging in the long run by keeping the crime in front of them for so long.

[Calm]

37 minutes ago, BRMC said:

Why would murder be murder to someone with an eternal perspective?  

God commands us not to murder and I can’t think of anyone with a more eternal perspective than him.

[rodheadlee]

1 hour ago, Olmec Donald said:

This question wasn't directed at me, but imo the death penalty is wrong.  I do not see that it serves any constructive purpose.

It gets rid of evil people and gets them off of our dime

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

gets rid of evil people and gets them off of our dime

Costs more to have a death penalty case and execute them than life imprisonment last I checked.

 Useful info possibly, I just glanced at it…

https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/policy-issues/costs

Edited December 24, 2021 by Calm

[rodheadlee]

36 minutes ago, Calm said:

Costs more to have a death penalty case and execute them than life imprisonment last I checked.

 Useful info possibly, I just glanced at it…

https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/policy-issues/costs

Well I used to be against the death penalty until this guy car jacks two women in their car. Then when he was done with the car he parked it put them in the trunk and lit the car on fire. Sorry, I think the death penalty is just fine for people like that.

Edited December 24, 2021 by rodheadlee

[Olmec Donald]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

The only possible demonstrated useful purpose IMO is to give victims or those who survive them a greater sense of safety.  Some have problems knowing the monster stills breathes the same air they do.  Or fearing and hating that somehow they might get out of jail.

I think I understand your point (and not just from a purely hypothetical perspective), but I don't think that putting the perpetrator to death is the best solution for any of the parties involved.  Is there a different paradigm which does not require an execution in order for those most affected to be at peace? 

Imo there is wisdom in the injunction, "Of you it is required to forgive all men."   

Edited December 24, 2021 by Olmec Donald

[MacGyver]

2 hours ago, sunstoned said:

I will let Teancum speak for himself, but my thoughts are the the death penalty is barbaric and there is no evidence that it serves as a deterrent.

 

https://www.aclu.org/other/death-penalty-questions-and-answers#:~:text=A%3A No%2C there is no,than long terms of imprisonment.&text=And states that have abolished,penalty has no deterrent effect.

Why do you consider the death penalty to be barbaric in all cases?

[Calm]

29 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

think the death penalty is just fine for people like that.

I have the same gut reaction, but having the system in place seems to use up resources that would make a bigger difference if used elsewhere. I hate those kind of moral questions…do you use hundreds of thousands of dollars and years worth of hours of medical professionals to care for a very vulnerable newborn or use the money and hours to make the lives of borderline children’s lives healthier?

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

Why do you consider the death penalty to be barbaric in all cases?

What effect does it have on those involved in the guarding and then execution of these criminals?  What effect does it have on judges and juries to convict and sentence people to death…especially knowing errors have been made in the past and people out to death who shouldn’t have been?

Edited December 24, 2021 by Calm

[Calm]

19 minutes ago, Olmec Donald said:

, "Of you it is required to forgive all men."   

I am not talking about forgiveness much, because one can do that and still live in fear of further abuse or assault because one knows the person is violent.

[MacGyver]

10 minutes ago, Calm said:

What effect does it have on those involved in the guarding and then execution of these criminals?  What effect does it have on judges and juries to convict and sentence people to death…especially knowing errors have been made in the past and people out to death who shouldn’t have been?

Putting a criminal to death is hard, but how does that make it barbaric? Lots of things are hard. 

[Calm]

Just now, MacGyver said:

Putting a criminal to death is hard, but how does that make it barbaric? Lots of things are hard. 

If it changes people for the worse, hardens their hearts, causes unnecessary suffering for what may be to satisfy vindictiveness no matter how justified it is (let them suffer like their victims suffered), etc….I consider that barbaric.

[MacGyver]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

If it changes people for the worse, hardens their hearts, causes unnecessary suffering for what may be to satisfy vindictiveness no matter how justified it is (let them suffer like their victims suffered), etc….I consider that barbaric.

Doesn't taking life in defense of one's family and country do the same thing. Do you consider that to be barbaric as well?

The Book of Mormon and D&C also command the death penalty for murder. Do you believe that the Book of Mormon and D&C command us to do something barbaric? 

[SkyRock]

Anyone with experience working with the criminal justice system knows punishment has a strong deterrence effect.  Criminals want to avoid prison and the death penalty.   

The recent efforts at dropping punishments has only increased criminal activity.

Capital punishment isn't barbaric.  Encouraging crimes including murders by refusing to punish is barbaric.

[Stargazer]

4 hours ago, sunstoned said:

I will let Teancum speak for himself, but my thoughts are the the death penalty is barbaric and there is no evidence that it serves as a deterrent.

 

https://www.aclu.org/other/death-penalty-questions-and-answers#:~:text=A%3A No%2C there is no,than long terms of imprisonment.&text=And states that have abolished,penalty has no deterrent effect.

I'm no big fan of the death penalty, especially because of the uneven way it is applied, but one thing is certain, and that is regardless of whether it is a deterrent, the person who committed a crime and is executed for it, will not have a chance to commit it again.