Relationship with Heavenly Parents

[MacGyver]

15 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It's not misleading.  It's measuring a specific thing.  It measures the number of women mentioned in the bible.  The answer the study came up with is 93. How is that false and misleading? 

It's false, because it is false. Way more than 93 women are mentioned in the Bible. 

https://www.womeninthescriptures.com/2017/03/list-of-all-women-in-old-testament.html

15 minutes ago, bluebell said:

And I'm sorry if I have some how confused you in regards to my intent, which is and has been during our whole discussion to acknowledge the fact that men in the bible were by and large sexist and that that bias shows up in scriptures and that it is dangerous not to take that bias into consideration when trying to understand God's relationship with His daughters.

I do not believe that it was God who said that if a woman is raped in town then she should be stoned, because no woman can possibly be raped in town without someone coming to her defense therefore it had to have been consensual, for example.  The bible says that it was God who said it because it's part of the Law of Moses, but I don't believe that God agrees with killing women who have been raped; I believe that is the product of sexist men who are claiming to speak for God but who are fallible and flawed.

The Law of Moses was a very harsh law given for a stiffnecked people. Just because you don't like certain aspects of it, doesn't mean the prophets were sexist and that God didn't give the law. 

And just because you don't like how women are portrayed in the scriptures doesn't mean the prophets were sexist, either. 

Edited December 21, 2021 by MacGyver

[bluebell]

17 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

It's false, because it is false. Way more than 93 women are mentioned in the Bible. 

https://www.womeninthescriptures.com/2017/03/list-of-all-women-in-old-testament.html

The Law of Moses was a very harsh law given for a stiffnecked people. Just because you don't like certain aspects of it, doesn't mean the prophets were sexist and that God didn't give the law. 

And just because you don't like how women are portrayed in the scriptures doesn't mean the prophets were sexist, either. 

Your list includes groups of women, the other list didn't.  It only includes specific women.

But yes, if you are fine with believing that God was ok will killing women who had been raped, then that says more about you then it says about God.  You can choose to die on that hill if you want to.  

[Freedom]

22 hours ago, MacGyver said:

Why do you accuse me of being an unorthodox and uninformed member?

Is that false accusation really necessary?

Notice how President Lee says probably. Apparently he doesn't know, either. 

Earlier I said that I believe it's safe to assume that our Heavenly Mother is aware of us and that it pleases her when we keep the commandments and love and serve God and our fellow man, but I don't know this for certain, because it hasn't been revealed. 

 

the word 'probably' is referring to both heavenly father and mother. Just sayin. 

[MacGyver]

10 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Your list includes groups of women, the other list didn't.  It only includes specific women.

Way more than 93 women are mentioned in the Bible, which means your stat was false.

10 minutes ago, bluebell said:

But yes, if you are fine with believing that God was ok will killing women who had been raped, then that says more about you then it says about God. 

Where does the law of Moses say that a woman who was raped should be put to death?

 

Edited December 21, 2021 by MacGyver

[Freedom]

3 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Does the following sound like the New Testament period men of the Church looked upon women as slaves?

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. (Ephesians 5)

if they were held in high esteem, then this verses would not have been needed. 

[Freedom]

3 hours ago, MacGyver said:

Way more than 93 women are mentioned in the Bible, which means your stat was false.

Where does the law of Moses say that a woman who was raped should be put to death?

 

for someone with such strong opinions on what the scriptures say you seem to not have a very good knowledge of what they say.  instead of just dismissing everything anybody ways that disagrees with you, provide some evidence to support your point of view. Deut 22:23-27

[Calm]

4 hours ago, MacGyver said:

It's false, because it is false. Way more than 93 women are mentioned in the Bible. 

That depends on what and how they were measuring and how they identified them. Different definitions will yield different numbers. Also different scholars look at names differently, some assuming any difference means it is likely a different person, others assuming if the story is a similar context, even if names are different, the text is actually referring to the same people and it is the scribes that erred in thinking an event happened twice just because names were inconsistent or something else. Naming standards were not exactly standardized in the Bible or among scholars, so there are quite a few different numbers out there being given for ‘women in scripture’.
 

I looked for the study, but so far I can just find it in the book and this cannot access the methodology.  My guess is they have taken similar circumstances to mean the same women and only count those women who can be definitely identified rather than vague references. 
 

I am not suggesting the study referenced by the Daily Mail is definite or absolute. For one thing, I don’t trust paraphrasing and cherry picking quotes by media. However, the study number itself is indicative of the trend in the text. Even if there are 300+ women mentioned as individuals in the Bible, in comparison to the men, that is not many. It is a much smaller percentage. 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Calm

[Calm]

I should have just skipped looking for the study and just checked the Daily Mail’s source, which is just another media outlet, so I ignored it. But they did much better in explaining the study.
 

It is 93 women who speak in the Bible, not who are mentioned. My apologies for not catching this sooner. 
 

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/bible-women-words_n_6608282

Quote

There are 93 women who speak in the Bible, 49 of whom are named. These women speak a total of 14,056 words collectively -- roughly 1.1 percent of the total words in the holy book.

My posts and others were focused on women’s voices, so I don’t see the more precise and limited reference of “speaking” needing to change our comments, however I will add a correction to my original post. 
 

Quote

"I wanted to know what women in the Bible really said," Freeman told The Huffington Post. "I was stunned to see that nobody had done this before."

The women met in the basement of Trinity Episcopal Church in Excelsior, Minnesota, where Freeman served as rector at the time the project began. They worked to identify each woman who makes a speaking appearance in the Bible, how many words she utters and what her larger role is. Their efforts culminated in a final book, Bible Women: All Their Words and Why They Matter, which was published in September 2014.

 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Calm

[Calm]

MacGyver (ach…my brain fog is humiliating me), do you believe the stat of 93 women speaking in the Bible is false and misleading, and if so please explain why. 
 

And again, my apologies for not better doublechecking the reference. I was lazy and too easily distracted at the time.  In my defense (which I have to add because I am embarrassed by the slip), I am usually more careful and it has not been a great week…little pity party here as it was a great three weeks prior and I got my hopes up the Meniere’s was weakening.

Apologies to Bluebell as well, for any time and effort  you feel wasted, though my opinion is that it doesn’t change the point of either of our posts. 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Calm

[MacGyver]

26 minutes ago, Freedom said:

Deut 22:23-27

I actually do know my scriptures pretty well. Which is why I asked for the reference..

These verses don't say that a raped woman should be put to death. They say they exact opposite. If a woman is raped then she is an innocent victim and is not to be punished. 

25 ¶ But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die:
26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:

[bluebell]

17 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

I actually do know my scriptures pretty well. Which is why I asked for the reference..

These verses don't say that a raped woman should be put to death. They say they exact opposite. If a woman is raped then she is an innocent victim and is not to be punished. 

25 ¶ But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die:
26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:

23 ¶ If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;

24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour’s wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

[bluebell]

26 minutes ago, Calm said:

BRMC, do you believe the stat of 93 women speaking in the Bible is false and misleading, and if so please explain why. 
 

And again, my apologies for not better doublechecking the reference. I was lazy and too easily distracted at the time.  In my defense (which I have to add because I am embarrassed by the slip), I am usually more careful and it has not been a great week…little pity party here as it was a great three weeks prior and I got my hopes so the Meniere’s was weakening.

Apologies to Bluebell as well, for any time and effort  you feel wasted, though my opinion is that it doesn’t change the point of either of our posts. 

It's Macgyver, not BRMC.

And no worries from me.  

[Freedom]

33 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

I actually do know my scriptures pretty well. Which is why I asked for the reference..

These verses don't say that a raped woman should be put to death. They say they exact opposite. If a woman is raped then she is an innocent victim and is not to be punished. 

25 ¶ But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die:
26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:

In this verse, it is refering to a prostitute that is found in a location where, even isnshe shouted out nobody would hear her. Verse 24 clearly states that she would be put to death unless she can prove that she shut out. 

[MacGyver]

28 minutes ago, bluebell said:

23 ¶ If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;

24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour’s wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

This is referring to a woman who is betrothed to a husband having consensual sex with another man, not being raped by another man. This clear from the next two verses, which address with what is to happen if she is raped. In that case she is innocent and the rapist is to be put to death, while she is to receive no punishment. 

Edited December 22, 2021 by MacGyver

[MacGyver]

12 minutes ago, Freedom said:

In this verse, it is refering to a prostitute that is found in a location where, even isnshe shouted out nobody would hear her. Verse 24 clearly states that she would be put to death unless she can prove that she shut out. 

It isn't referring to a prostitute. It's referring to a woman betrothed to a husband having consensual sex with another man. Nowhere does it say that she has to prove that she shouted out or else be put to death, either. 

[bluebell]

10 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

This is referring to a woman who is betrothed to a husband having consensual sex with another man, not being raped by another man. This clear from the next two verses, which address with what is to happen if she is raped. In that case she is innocent and the rapist is to be put to death, while she is to receive no punishment. 

No the next two verses do not address what happens if she is raped, it clarifies what should happen if she is raped in a field and not in a city.  

But I don't think that the discussion is worth having any more.  

[MacGyver]

59 minutes ago, Calm said:

BRMC, do you believe the stat of 93 women speaking in the Bible is false and misleading, and if so please explain why. 

I can't speak for BRMC since I'm not him. But, I believe that the 93 women speaking stat is still misleading (and false). 

The Bible speaks of crowds of people shouting or cheering and these crowds included both men and women. An example would be when Christ enters Jerusalem triumphantly in the last week of his life and the crowd shouted, "Hosanna, blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord." An unknown number of men and women are quoted here. This account alone, makes the 93 number false. 

Obviously a lot more men than women speak and are mentioned in the Bible. No one is disputing that. But unless you compare how many men speak in the Bible compared to women and how many lines they have, instead of comparing it to the overall words in the Bible, then the 93 women speaking 14,000 words stat is a very misleading statistic. 

Many women (as in thousands, if not millions) are mentioned in the Bible. Women are part of many stories in the Bible. I would dare say that women play a role in most stories in the Bible. Which again makes the 93 women speaking stat very misleading. 

[Calm]

50 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It's Macgyver, not BRMC.

And no worries from me.  

I don’t know why I got them mixed up except they are both new. Very distinct styles of writing. 
 

Sorry, MacGyver, just not with it right now. 

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

he Bible speaks of crowds of people shouting or cheering and these crowds included both men and women.

Your definition is much more broad than any other I have seen and could be misleading if not explained. 
 

If sufficient context is given, I don’t think either is misleading. I do think yours is irrelevant to the context I am speaking of, which is addressing women as individuals and not as part of a nameless crowd. 

[MacGyver]

9 minutes ago, bluebell said:

No the next two verses do not address what happens if she is raped, it clarifies what should happen if she is raped in a field and not in a city.  

But I don't think that the discussion is worth having any more.  

This discussion needs to happen. 

Verses 23 and 24 aren't dealing with rape at all. They are dealing with consensual sex. Verses 25 and 26 are about rape. 

23 ¶ If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;

24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour’s wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

25 ¶ But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die:

26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:

Notice how in the first scenario its says if a man "lie with her" and the second scenario says if a man "force her, and lie with her." The first scenario is consensual sex and the second is rape.

[MacGyver]

12 minutes ago, Calm said:

I don’t know why I got them mixed up except they are both new. Very distinct styles of writing. 
 

Sorry, MacGyver, just not with it right now. 

It's all good. 

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

This discussion needs to happen. 

Verses 23 and 24 aren't dealing with rape at all. They are dealing with consensual sex. Verses 25 and 26 are about rape. 

23 ¶ If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;

24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour’s wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

25 ¶ But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die:

26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:

Notice how in the first scenario its says if a man "lie with her" and the second scenario says if a man "force her, and lie with her." The first scenario is consensual sex and the second is rape.

I agree it needs to happen.  But I don't see that any good will come of it happening with you.  On those grounds, it's better to agree to disagree.

[MacGyver]

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

Your definition is much more broad than any other I have seen and could be misleading if not explained. 
 

If sufficient context is given, I don’t think either is misleading. I do think yours is irrelevant to the context I am speaking of, which is addressing women as individuals and not as part of a nameless crowd. 

Every woman in that crowd is an individual who was there and cheered when the Savior of the world entered Jerusalem triumphantly. 

And as I keep saying, in many, if not most, of the stories in the Bible, women play a role. 

[MacGyver]

6 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I agree it needs to happen.  But I don't see that any good will come of it happening with you.  On those grounds, it's better to agree to disagree.

Why won't any good come of it? Isn't it important to establish the truth that neither God nor his prophets said that a woman who was raped should be put to death? Seems like a pretty big deal to me.

I can't think of any reason why you would be opposed to establishing the truth about this.

[Calm]

I am going to try once and only once. 

29 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

Verses 23 and 24 aren't dealing with rape at all. They are dealing with consensual sex. Verses 25 and 26 are about rape. 

You are right in that it is dealing with consensual sex, but it is only assumed consensual sex as judged by whether or not the woman cries for help (and likely has to be heard by a witness and not just say “but I did cry out, only no one heard me” or “he had his hand over my mouth before I knew what he was doing”).  There would be no need to differentiate between field and city and when it matters that a woman cries out if she is being raped.
 

The issue is the assumption that the woman knows she will be heard in the city, so if she chooses not to cry out, it must not be rape…“the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city”.  They did not say “she gets stoned because she consented to lie with the man when he found her”.  They are saying it is consensual “because she cried not”.

So in reality it could very well be rape, but the woman who does not cry out has no legal defense against being stoned.  Her saying “I was forced, I was too scared to cry out” is not a legal defense.  It doesn’t matter if it was consensual or not if she wasn’t heard to cry out by a witness.

In the country where no one may hear whether or not she cries out, a different standard for determining rape must therefore be used. 
 

Quote

neither God nor his prophets said that a woman who was rapedshould be put to death?

I don’t assume that everything in the Bible was written by prophets or is the Word of God.  That is a different conversation in my view than the Law of Moses’ consequence for silent sex in the city.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Calm