Relationship with Heavenly Parents

[Bernard Gui]

An interesting question in last week’s Sunday School lesson manual…

Quote

What difference do these truths [in the 13 Articles of Faith] make in our relationship with our Heavenly Parents and Jesus Christ?

How would you answer?

[JustAnAustralian]

I'd go with something along the lines of

v1: They exist

v2-3: They love us

v4-5: Ordinances can bring us closer to them

v6: We have access to the ordinances through the church

v7-9: Revelation is real (i.e they can speak with us and us to them)

v10: Christ will return

v11-13: We choose how to act (which links back in to v3).

 

Edited December 15, 2021 by JustAnAustralian

[CV75]

8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

An interesting question in last week’s Sunday School lesson manual…

How would you answer?

This question certainly opens up discussion about our Heavenly Mother, of which nothing has specifically been mentioned in the scriptures (or covenants and ordinances), at least as clearly as the Father.

The scholars have a lot to say about how to infer Her existence and our relationship with Her. The prophets of the restoration infer Her existence from the revealed sealing principles.

At any rate, I think we can use the Articles of Faith to consider how each principle works in relation to our covenants, none of which are made in the name of the Mother. But if we keep our covenants, the idea that we each have a Heavenly Mother gives us the model for the eternal family: that we came from Sealed Parents, and can follow that pattern in this life and beyond through our temple sealings, which must always include a woman in the eternal chain of links.

I think it is inappropriate to pray to Heavenly Mother in public since we do not have an explicit covenant relationship with her, as reflected in what Jesus taught and our manuals teach about how our private and personal prayers are to be structured. I understand some people feel very close to Her and communicate with her, and even pray to her, which is their understanding and blessing, but with this I would exercise wisdom in proclaiming things that are "not in the manual" and charity in discussing the topic.

Edited December 15, 2021 by CV75

[MustardSeed]

As far as anything the church provides, including Any articles of faith, nothing provides me anything that gives me a relationship with my heavenly mother (except of course one hymn that only “suggests” her existence via logic”)

To answer the question:

Personally, the articles of faith speak to the reality that we worship Jesus Christ and that He continues His work today.  This strengthens my resolve to follow the gospel guidance and affects my relationship with God in that I feel closer to Him when I do so, and further when I don’t. 

Edited December 17, 2021 by MustardSeed

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, MustardSeed said:

As far as anything the church provides, including Any articles of faith, nothing provides me anything that gives me a relationship with my heavenly mother (except of course one hymn that only “suggests” her existence via logic”)

Personally the articles of faith speak to the reality that we worship Jesus Christ and that He continues His work today. 

I agree. I don’t find anything in the articles of faith that even hint at or imply heavenly parents.  I don’t think addressing or even alluding to that was it’s purpose, so it’s not surprising it’s not in there.

Do we know if JS even believed in a Heavenly Mother at this point in the restoration?

[MustardSeed]

It’s odd that the manual would ask that question to include Her. 

[longview]

Priests and kings, priestesses and queens make for a very egalitarian Celestial Kingdom.  All set up to rule and reign in the House of Israel forever.  The Abrahamic Covenant of Eternal Increase.  Dominions on top of dominions.  For the benefit of infinite numbers of intelligences waiting for their turn in the next Eternal Rounds.

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, longview said:

Priests and kings, priestesses and queens make for a very egalitarian Celestial Kingdom.  All set up to rule and reign in the House of Israel forever.  The Abrahamic Covenant of Eternal Increase.  Dominions on top of dominions.  For the benefit of infinite numbers of intelligences waiting for their turn in the next Eternal Rounds.

Not disagreeing but I am giggling over the idea that royalty is a very egalitarian position.

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

It’s odd that the manual would ask that question to include Her. 

If the correlation committee is trying to work Heavenly Mother into the conversation more then that's a good thing. But it's also problematic because we just don't really have much we can say and I think it will highlight that huge blank spot in our theology.  A spot that we know is full but we know practically nothing beyond that.

[rongo]

5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

If the correlation committee is trying to work Heavenly Mother into the conversation more then that's a good thing. But it's also problematic because we just don't really have much we can say and I think it will highlight that huge blank spot in our theology.  A spot that we know is full but we know practically nothing beyond that.

Wait --- are you saying that the Valerie Hudson/gospel topics essay isn't enough?  

I do think that we have many theological questions that aren't answered that the key-holders could inquire and receive revelation on (God-willing), but we as an institutional church haven't actively sought this at the top for some time now. I'm not saying we don't have revelation, just that the things revelation is sought for are more policy-oriented than doctrinal --- and have been for some time. 

On the individual level, the sky's the limit, and many people live above (or beneath) their privileges, but these personal revelations aren't binding on the Church. 

[CV75]

9 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

It’s odd that the manual would ask that question to include Her. 

I think we might see more explicit tie-ins with the eternal family. I think it interesting that this is being done with the Articles of Faith, which children memorize and parents help put into a practical context for daily life and discipleship. Elder Hafen has an interesting article (a few years old) in the CFM for this week's lesson that points to the need to do this.  https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2015/08/the-proclamation-on-the-family-transcending-cultural-confusion?lang=eng

I think much of his data may be challenged by conflicting special interests some 8 years on. But he also says some things that foreshadow what we see 8 years later: that marriage is most strongly defended on a freedom of religion basis than by sociological arguments. That it was ordained of God, the pattern set forth in the conception and birth of the Only Begotten Son of God, bears this out.

I also think framing his remarks as a "Universal Love Story" to support the "joys of human love and family belonging" can be challenged by same-sex marriage interests, since they claim the same longings. The argument to balance individual and societal interests becomes moot, especially when individual interests win more and more often, and when the pattern set forth by God trumps either individual or societal interests, interestingly by reconciling them through the birth and atoning mission of Jesus Christ.

 

Edited December 18, 2021 by CV75

[Teancum]

On 12/15/2021 at 8:58 AM, CV75 said:

This question certainly opens up discussion about our Heavenly Mother, of which nothing has specifically been mentioned in the scriptures (or covenants and ordinances), at least as clearly as the Father.

The scholars have a lot to say about how to infer Her existence and our relationship with Her. The prophets of the restoration infer Her existence from the revealed sealing principles.

At any rate, I think we can use the Articles of Faith to consider how each principle works in relation to our covenants, none of which are made in the name of the Mother. But if we keep our covenants, the idea that we each have a Heavenly Mother gives us the model for the eternal family: that we came from Sealed Parents, and can follow that pattern in this life and beyond through our temple sealings, which must always include a woman in the eternal chain of links.

I think it is inappropriate to pray to Heavenly Mother in public since we do not have an explicit covenant relationship with her, as reflected in what Jesus taught and our manuals teach about how our private and personal prayers are to be structured. I understand some people feel very close to Her and communicate with her, and even pray to her, which is their understanding and blessing, but with this I would exercise wisdom in proclaiming things that are "not in the manual" and charity in discussing the topic.

Heavenly mother is really becoming in vogue in LDS things. The term heavenly parents as well. Such topics were not brought up I think as much until the past maybe 5 years?  Many active LDS men I know say it is not a heavenly mother but heavenly mothers and this is why we have no reference to just one.

[MacGyver]

The term "Heavenly Parents" is not found anywhere in the Articles of Faith or in the scriptures for that matter.

There is also no instruction or command to build a relationship with our Heavenly Mother. We are to build a relationship with the Godhead (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost), not our Heavenly Parents. 

But presumably by being faithful to the commandments and loving and serving God and our fellow man, we also please our Heavenly Mother as she is undoubtedly aware of us and cares about us, too. 

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

But presumably by being faithful to the commandments and loving and serving God and our fellow man, we also please our Heavenly Mother as she is undoubtedly aware of us and cares about us, too. 

Very generous of you to allow her awareness. 

[MacGyver]

39 minutes ago, Calm said:

Very generous of you to allow her awareness. 

I'm not "allowing" her awareness.

The reality is that we know precious little about our Heavenly Mother. We don't even know if she is aware of what is going on in our lives in the same way our Heavenly Father is. But I think it's safe to assume that she is aware of us and that it brings her joy when we keep the commandments of God and love and serve our fellow man.

Edited December 18, 2021 by MacGyver

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, MacGyver said:

I'm not "allowing" her awareness.

The reality is that we know precious little about our Heavenly Mother. We don't even know if she is aware of what is going on in our lives in the same way our Heavenly Father is. But I think it's safe to assume that she is aware of us and that it brings her joy when we keep the commandments of God and love and serve our fellow man.

Maybe because no one cares to say what she thinks, like they say what HF thinks. It's just men, that write down scripture basically, and their idea of God, IMNSHO. 

[CV75]

7 hours ago, Teancum said:

Heavenly mother is really becoming in vogue in LDS things. The term heavenly parents as well. Such topics were not brought up I think as much until the past maybe 5 years?  Many active LDS men I know say it is not a heavenly mother but heavenly mothers and this is why we have no reference to just one.

The Restoration is an ongoing process. I think overly enthusiastic extrapolations from and resistance to developments in Church teachings by some members are par for the course, but most saints I think handle them well.

[MacGyver]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Maybe because no one cares to say what she thinks, like they say what HF thinks. It's just men, that write down scripture basically, and their idea of God, IMNSHO. 

I disagree. The scriptures are the word of God. And the prophets had no problem with recording the experiences and thoughts of many different women. There is obviously a reason for why God has revealed virtually nothing about our Heavenly Mother. In my opinion, this is at least in part because he wants to protect her from being blasphemed the way he so often is. 

[Calm]

On 12/18/2021 at 11:33 PM, MacGyver said:

the experiences and thoughts of many different women

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2940774/Study-finds-93-women-Bible-speak-just-1-1-cent-time.html

Quote

they discovered that of the 93 women, only 49 were named - and together they spoke a grand total of 14,056 words. 

Quote

Their painstaking study revealed that Mary, the mother of Jesus, speaks just 191 words, while Mary Magdalene says only 61 words and Sarah, the wife of Abraham, is attributed with 141 words.

Meanwhile, Eve - perhaps the Bible's best-known woman - speaks only 74 words, and Judith, from the Book of Judith, has the most words spoken with a grand total of 2,689 

An unnamed Samaritan woman, who has the longest recorded conversation with Jesus in the Bible, speaks a total of just 151 words.

It is estimated that the Bible contains around 1.1 million words in total. 

Added: the study referred to is about women speaking in the Bible, not just mentioned. I am assuming the Daily was using “mentioned” as ‘writing down what someone said’ rather than talking about someone.  My apologies for any confusion that follows, which was quite a bit. The issue for me was always the percentage of women’s voices in the Bible, whether paraphrased or quoted, so the error doesn’t change the point of the comments by focusing on the quotes.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/bible-women-words_n_6608282

Still not the actual study. Hopefully the description is accurate. 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Calm

[MacGyver]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

they discovered that of the 93 women, only 49 were named - and together they spoke a grand total of 14,056 words. 

Clearly the prophets didn't have a problem with talking about women. God obviously didn't want them to write about Heavenly Mother. 

[Calm]

4 hours ago, MacGyver said:

Clearly the prophets didn't have a problem with talking about women.

https://wordcounter.net/blog/2015/12/08/10975_how-many-words-bible.html
 

Whether they had a problem or not, they clearly chose not to for the most part.  Over 780,000 words in the Bible and a little over 14,000 spoken by women. If you had that kind of relationship with your daughter, you would likely be accused of neglect. 

Edited December 19, 2021 by Calm

[bluebell]

7 hours ago, MacGyver said:

I disagree. The scriptures are the word of God. And the prophets had no problem with recording the experiences and thoughts of many different women. There is obviously a reason for why God has revealed virtually nothing about our Heavenly Mother. In my opinion, this is at least in part because he wants to protect her from being blasphemed the way he so often is. 

Many different women?

How many thoughts of many different women can you actually provide references for? 

[bluebell]

7 hours ago, MacGyver said:

Clearly the prophets didn't have a problem with talking about women. God obviously didn't want them to write about Heavenly Mother. 

Clearly the prophets hardly ever spoke about women at all.  93 times over thousands of years.  

[MacGyver]

38 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Clearly the prophets hardly ever spoke about women at all.  93 times over thousands of years.  

They spoke about way more than 93 women in the scriptures. 

[The Nehor]

6 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

They spoke about way more than 93 women in the scriptures. 

Fun Pop Quiz: How many women are mentioned by name in the Book of Mormon?

Edited December 19, 2021 by The Nehor