CV75 Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 3 hours ago, MacGyver said: The verse you quoted was speaking specifically of sons of perdition and they certainly do not "live happily ever after." And since they don't live happily ever after, I think it's a real stretch to apply a verse about sons of perdition "enjoying that which they were willing to receive" to the heirs of the Telestial kingdom and then claiming this shows that they "live happily ever after." Are there any other scriptures you can use to support your claim that the heirs of the Telestial kingdom "live happily ever after" and will be perfectly content and satisfied living in the Telestial kingdom for all of eternity with no hope of progressing? I explained what I meant by “happily ever after” (or, in your words, “so great”, and now “perfectly content” and “satisfied”) a number of posts ago, using scriptural descriptions from D&C 76: 16, 17, 39, 85, 86, 88, 89 and 109, text which speaks for itself. We find examples of this principle in D&C 56:15 and D&C 138:57-59, as well as 88:32. When an individual has no hope of one thing because they have fulfilled their hope of what matters most to them, they are satisfied without adopting another person’s higher expectation for them. We (including those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the spirit world) receive a reward according to our works per D&C 76, including whatever those works may be for spirits in prison who repent and obey the ordinances of the house of the Lord. 3 hours ago, MacGyver said: I'm sure you can find theories about MMP on blogs/websites, though it would be helpful to know which ones you are referring to. I would suspect that they all use scriptures and quotes from Joseph Smith and his contemporaries, which is what I plan to do. Yes, so I think the best thing to is present the scripture text that speaks for itself.
CV75 Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 2 minutes ago, Olmec Donald said: Why should someone be restricted to only using the canon as a source, and then only if they don't "read [anything] into the text", presumably according to the other party's definition of the term? For example there is nothing in the canon about temple garments, unless you read something into the text. Since non-canonical sources and reasoning (inductive and/or deductive) are normally used around here, why not in this case? I would be interested in what you have to say whether or not it includes non-canonical sources and/or reasoning. Seems to me that readers can (and will) filter what you write if they wish to exclude non-canonical sources. In this case, the restriction is helpful only because he required it of me as a standard of fact over reasoning, that the text must speak for itself. And now that you mention it, it would reduce filtering. That, I think, is a novel approach and worth trying rather than rehashing the same old reasoning easily found elsewhere.
Olmec Donald Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 21 minutes ago, CV75 said: In this case, the restriction is helpful only because he required it of me as a standard of fact over reasoning, Ah, I should have read the entire exchange. That stipulation didn't sound like you.
CV75 Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 3 hours ago, Olmec Donald said: Ah, I should have read the entire exchange. That stipulation didn't sound like you. I'm always open to trying new approaches! It think it would be remarkable to see a doctrine laid out solely with scriptural text. It would answer all sorts of rhetorical questions like these (and I emphasize rhetorical): What if someone chose not to go back to mortality? What if a mass murderer (including of chidden) chose to go back and improve his lot by killing 5% fewer people each time? And what if some of the 95% of his victims were coming back from the last time he killed them, only to be killed again? Can any of these choose to progress between post-mortal kingdoms instead (or as well)? Are both, and other, plans in place, and can we choose one or mix and match? Does it mean that the 20 billion people from this planet progress to the fulness of the stature of Christ, for a total of 20 billion saviors for 20 billion other planets, each with 20 billion other people involved in the MMP plan of redemption for this planet alone (I guess 4 x 10 to the 20th power, times however many cycles are in progress for other planets, coming into existence both previously and after ours)?
Olmec Donald Posted January 6, 2022 Posted January 6, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, CV75 said: I'm always open to trying new approaches! It think it would be remarkable to see a doctrine laid out solely with scriptural text. Imo that could become the pathway to stagnation. How many churches claim their doctrine is based solely on "scriptural text"? The one down the street from me proudly proclaims the Bible to be "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth". Even though I'm not a member, I'd hate to see Mormonism reduced to just another a version of that. I MUCH prefer Joseph Smith's approach (which imo doesn't get old): "We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God." If the Eighth Article of Faith is true in the present tense, and if it is not apparent what God "does now reveal", then maybe it makes more sense to widen the search radius instead of narrowing it? Edited January 6, 2022 by Olmec Donald 1
MacGyver Posted January 6, 2022 Posted January 6, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, CV75 said: What if someone chose not to go back to mortality? If the world upon which we now live is literally a Telestial kingdom, and the people in this world who die and earn another Telestial reward may not have a choice. They may just be born into another body. That may be how they are resurrected. 1 hour ago, CV75 said: What if a mass murderer (including of chidden) chose to go back and improve his lot by killing 5% fewer people each time? This wouldn't be enough of an improvement to warrant much progress. The mass murderer would keep being a son of perdition or inherit another Telestial kingdom. 1 hour ago, CV75 said: And what if some of the 95% of his victims were coming back from the last time he killed them, only to be killed again? This could conceivably happen, but I don't see why this would matter. 1 hour ago, CV75 said: Can any of these choose to progress between post-mortal kingdoms instead (or as well)? Are both, and other, plans in place, and can we choose one or mix and match? Not sure what you are asking here. Can you please clarify? 1 hour ago, CV75 said: Does it mean that the 20 billion people from this planet progress to the fulness of the stature of Christ, for a total of 20 billion saviors for 20 billion other planets, each with 20 billion other people involved in the MMP plan of redemption for this planet alone (I guess 4 x 10 to the 20th power, times however many cycles are in progress for other planets, coming into existence both previously and after ours)? In my opinion only males will eventually progress to be Saviors of worlds. All males from this planet may never progress to Godhood, but I think the opportunity will always be there. Maybe they will all eventually progress to this point. In which case there would be 20 billion Saviors of 20 billion planets. Why not? God said that he has created so many planets that man cannot count them. Edited January 6, 2022 by MacGyver
CV75 Posted January 6, 2022 Posted January 6, 2022 12 hours ago, MacGyver said: If the world upon which we now live is literally a Telestial kingdom, and the people in this world who die and earn another Telestial reward may not have a choice. They may just be born into another body. That may be how they are resurrected. This wouldn't be enough of an improvement to warrant much progress. The mass murderer would keep being a son of perdition or inherit another Telestial kingdom. This could conceivably happen, but I don't see why this would matter. Not sure what you are asking here. Can you please clarify? In my opinion only males will eventually progress to be Saviors of worlds. All males from this planet may never progress to Godhood, but I think the opportunity will always be there. Maybe they will all eventually progress to this point. In which case there would be 20 billion Saviors of 20 billion planets. Why not? God said that he has created so many planets that man cannot count them. These were rhetorical questions, intended as humor.
CV75 Posted January 6, 2022 Posted January 6, 2022 12 hours ago, Olmec Donald said: Imo that could become the pathway to stagnation. How many churches claim their doctrine is based solely on "scriptural text"? The one down the street from me proudly proclaims the Bible to be "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth". Even though I'm not a member, I'd hate to see Mormonism reduced to just another a version of that. I MUCH prefer Joseph Smith's approach (which imo doesn't get old): "We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God." If the Eighth Article of Faith is true in the present tense, and if it is not apparent what God "does now reveal", then maybe it makes more sense to widen the search radius instead of narrowing it? Yes, remarkable.
MacGyver Posted January 6, 2022 Posted January 6, 2022 1 hour ago, CV75 said: These were rhetorical questions, intended as humor. Yeah, I got that they were rhetorical questions, intended for effect. But I think that each of your questions has an answer, which is why I provided one.
Recommended Posts