MacGyver Posted January 1, 2022 Posted January 1, 2022 22 minutes ago, Calm said: And how does that work with the below? They need to be executed because they can’t repent to ease their suffering but they need to suffer excruciating pain because they did not repent. And you take away their body so they can’t suffer the way they should. The suffering may all take place in the spirit world for all I know. Joseph Smith taught that a spirit body is made up of matter, but the matter is finer than that of a physical body. Perhaps a spirit body can suffer the way the Savior did. But it should also be noted that the wicked will inherit the Telestial kingdom upon being resurrected, which is similar to the world in which we now live. Great suffering exists here in our world, so why not in a future Telestial kingdom?
Calm Posted January 1, 2022 Posted January 1, 2022 12 hours ago, Stargazer said: If you know of a scripture that says that punishment has to be done prior to resurrection, Quote When will we be resurrected? People will be resurrected at different times. The Resurrection of Jesus Christ ushered in the First Resurrection, or resurrection of the just. Some righteous people have already been resurrected since that time. After the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, many more righteous people will be resurrected. During the Millennium, other good people will be resurrected. After the Millennium, the wicked will be resurrected. (See D&C 76:32–112; 88:97–101.) What happens after we’re resurrected? After all people have been resurrected and the Millennium has ended, we will be brought into the presence of God to be judged according to our words, deeds, thoughts, and desires (see Revelation 20:12; Alma 12:14; D&C 137:9). Jesus Christ will be our Judge (see John 5:22, 27–29; Romans 14:10). https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2016/06/what-do-we-know-about-life-after-death?lang=eng
Calm Posted January 1, 2022 Posted January 1, 2022 Hell is the time of punishment and that occurs prior to resurrection. Quote Those who choose not to repent but who are not sons of perdition will remain in spirit prison until the end of the Millennium, when they will be freed from hell and punishment and be resurrected to a telestial glory (see Doctrine and Covenants 76:81–85). https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/hell?lang=eng
MacGyver Posted January 1, 2022 Posted January 1, 2022 4 minutes ago, Calm said: After the Millennium, the wicked will be resurrected. (See D&C 76:32–112; 88:97–101.) What happens to the wicked once they are resurrected after the millennium? In describing those who inherit the Telestial kingdom, D&C 76:84-85 says: 84 These are they who are thrust down to hell. 85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work. This appears to suggest that at the end of the millennium, upon being resurrected, their suffering in hell ends. Or perhaps it is also equating the Telestial kingdom with hell, in which case they are redeemed from the devil of this world upon being resurrected, but remain in hell. Regarding the wicked who inherit the Telestial kingdom, D&C 88: 100-101 says: 100 And again, another trump shall sound, which is the third trump; and then come the spirits of men who are to be judged, and are found under condemnation; 101 And these are the rest of the dead; and they live not again until the thousand years are ended, neither again, until the end of the earth. Following their resurrection, the wicked are still found under condemnation. So does this mean that their suffering continues in the Telestial kingdom? Do they have to suffer more as part of their progression to a higher kingdom? I would think so.
teddyaware Posted January 1, 2022 Posted January 1, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, MacGyver said: The suffering may all take place in the spirit world for all I know. Joseph Smith taught that a spirit body is made up of matter, but the matter is finer than that of a physical body. Perhaps a spirit body can suffer the way the Savior did. But it should also be noted that the wicked will inherit the Telestial kingdom upon being resurrected, which is similar to the world in which we now live. Great suffering exists here in our world, so why not in a future Telestial kingdom? One of the big mistakes most members of the Church make when considering the inheritors of the telestial kingdom of glory is that they believe those who will.dwell there are still “wicked,” which they are not. If one reads Doctrine and Covenants 76 carefully, it will be observed that what’s being described is a process that will eventually transform the formerly wicked inhabitants of the earth into justified (I.e. forgiven) individuals who will be worthy of the presence of the third member of the Godhead as well as angelic ministration. Here are the steps in process of converting the wicked from their wickedness into becoming the forgiven heirs of salvation described in Doctrine and Covenants 76: 1) The wicked live lives of wickedness while in the flesh on earth. 2) As a consequence of their wickedness these wicked people “suffer the wrath of God” on earth (meaning they are deprived of God’s forgiveness and blessings). 3) At the time of death they are thrust down to hell where they continue to suffer the wrath of God in a highly intensified manner while in the spirit world. 4) The hell to which these wicked enemies of God are subjected is called “the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God,” where Christ severely punishes the wicked for their sins until they are finally subdued in humility and are no longer his enemies (remember, as our Savior Christ possesses the keys of death and hell). 5) These humbled formerly wicked enemies of God are finally forgiven and granted the companionship of the Holy Spirit because, by the power of the Holy Spirit, they are sincerely willing to confess unto God the Father that Jesus is the Christ and the Lord of their salvation. 6) At last these forgiven and blessed former enemies of God are admitted into the telestial kingdom of glory, a heavenly realm of light, life, truth and glory so great that it is utterly beyond present comprehension of man. 7) While inhabiting the telestial kingdom of heavenly glory, as opposed to this present fallen telestial World of misery and physical and spiritual death, the converted formerly wicked will be righteous enough to become servants of God in the furtherance of his holy work and eternal purposes. Eight) The inhabitants of the telestial kingdom will be ministered to by ministers from the terrestrial kingdom, as well as by angels from the celestial kingdom, who will instruct them on how to continue in the furtherance of their divinely decreed course of eternal progression. Edited January 1, 2022 by teddyaware
Stargazer Posted January 2, 2022 Posted January 2, 2022 12 hours ago, Calm said: Hell is the time of punishment and that occurs prior to resurrection. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/hell?lang=eng It wouldn't be the first time a church manual was incorrect, or incomplete. The scriptures, which I quoted previously, say differently. I must give them precedence over a study manual. And of course, you're welcome to disagree with me. 🙂 In the end, as I wrote previously, whether the unrepentant are punished "even as I" before or after the resurrection, isn't a critical point of doctrine.
MacGyver Posted January 2, 2022 Posted January 2, 2022 22 hours ago, teddyaware said: One of the big mistakes most members of the Church make when considering the inheritors of the telestial kingdom of glory is that they believe those who will.dwell there are still “wicked,” which they are not. If one reads Doctrine and Covenants 76 carefully, it will be observed that what’s being described is a process that will eventually transform the formerly wicked inhabitants of the earth into justified (I.e. forgiven) individuals Why does D&C 88:100 say that at the time of their resurrection and judgment they are still found under condemnation? 100 And again, another trump shall sound, which is the third trump; and then come the spirits of men who are to be judged, and are found under condemnation; 22 hours ago, teddyaware said: the telestial kingdom of glory, a heavenly realm of light, life, truth and glory so great that it is utterly beyond present comprehension of man Do you have a reference for this description of the Telestial kingdom? 22 hours ago, teddyaware said: While inhabiting the telestial kingdom of heavenly glory, as opposed to this present fallen telestial World of misery and physical and spiritual death Where are you getting this distinction between the Telestial kingdom and our Telestial world? Doesn't the temple say that the world in which we now live IS the Telestial kingdom? 22 hours ago, teddyaware said: the converted formerly wicked will be righteous enough to become servants of God in the furtherance of his holy work and eternal purposes Are telestial people in the world in which we no live unable to be servants of God in bringing about his eternal purposes? 22 hours ago, teddyaware said: The inhabitants of the telestial kingdom will be ministered to by ministers from the terrestrial kingdom, as well as by angels from the celestial kingdom, who will instruct them on how to continue in the furtherance of their divinely decreed course of eternal progression. Isn't this happening in the world in which we now live?
teddyaware Posted January 2, 2022 Posted January 2, 2022 50 minutes ago, MacGyver said: Why does D&C 88:100 say that at the time of their resurrection and judgment they are still found under condemnation? 100 And again, another trump shall sound, which is the third trump; and then come the spirits of men who are to be judged, and are found under condemnation; Do you have a reference for this description of the Telestial kingdom? Where are you getting this distinction between the Telestial kingdom and our Telestial world? Doesn't the temple say that the world in which we now live IS the Telestial kingdom? Are telestial people in the world in which we no live unable to be servants of God in bringing about his eternal purposes? Isn't this happening in the world in which we now live? 1) D&C 88:100 is speaking of the sons of perdition who steadfastly refuse to repent and are resurrected “as if there had been no redemption made. 2) 87 And the terrestrial through the ministration of the celestial. 88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation. 89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding; (D&C 76) In the temple, the present realm in which we now live is the “telestial world.” And as I’ve already shown, whether one wants to call this present fallen, unredeemed word a telestial kingdom, it certainly bears very little resemblance the the heavenly mansion of glory that will become the habitation of those resurrected and saved individuals who will become “servants of the Most High.” 3) You must realize there’s a vast difference between this fallen telestial world of death that is the present habitation of the devil and his hosts and the post-resurrection telestial kingdom of heavenly glory where Satan does not dwell and where the redeemed are ministered to by the Third Member of the Godhead (who testifies of God the Father and Christ), by ministers from the terrestrial kingdom of heavenly glory, as well as by and angels from the celestial kingdom. “ 88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them.” (D&C 76) 4) People who serve God in this fallen, mortal telestial world must first become baptized and confirmed members of Christ’s Celestial Kingdom Church before they can be servants of God. There’s also a vast difference between faithful members of the Church who strive to live God’s law and the unconverted wicked in this telestial world. Even so, by now you should be willing to agree that there’s a very bid difference between this fallen world of death and the post-resurrection heavenly kingdom of glory known as the telestial kingdom? And just the fact that Satan and his hosts are banished from the telestial kingdom, as opposed to this fallen and devilish telestial world, makes all the difference in the world. 1
CV75 Posted January 2, 2022 Posted January 2, 2022 On 1/1/2022 at 10:34 AM, MacGyver said: What happens to the wicked once they are resurrected after the millennium? In describing those who inherit the Telestial kingdom, D&C 76:84-85 says: 84 These are they who are thrust down to hell. 85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work. This appears to suggest that at the end of the millennium, upon being resurrected, their suffering in hell ends. Or perhaps it is also equating the Telestial kingdom with hell, in which case they are redeemed from the devil of this world upon being resurrected, but remain in hell. Regarding the wicked who inherit the Telestial kingdom, D&C 88: 100-101 says: 100 And again, another trump shall sound, which is the third trump; and then come the spirits of men who are to be judged, and are found under condemnation; 101 And these are the rest of the dead; and they live not again until the thousand years are ended, neither again, until the end of the earth. Following their resurrection, the wicked are still found under condemnation. So does this mean that their suffering continues in the Telestial kingdom? Do they have to suffer more as part of their progression to a higher kingdom? I would think so. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/section-88-the-olive-leaf?lang=eng D&C 88:100–101. The Resurrection of Telestial Beings “All liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers and all who love and make a lie,” President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote, “shall not receive the resurrection at this time, but for a thousand years shall be thrust down into hell where they shall suffer the wrath of God until they pay the price of their sinning, if it is possible, by the things which they shall suffer” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:297). After they have satisfied the demands of justice by paying for their own sins in hell, they will then be brought forth and resurrected (see D&C 76:103–6). [this answers you last question -- their suffering occurs prior to their resurrection] “These do not live during the millennial reign, but during that time are spending their time in torment, or anguish of soul, because of their transgressions. … [this answers your question about D&C 76:84-85]. “This suffering will be a means of cleansing, or purifying, and through it the wicked shall be brought to a condition whereby they may, through the redemption of Jesus Christ, obtain immortality. Their spirits and bodies shall be again united, and they shall dwell in the telestial kingdom. But this resurrection will not come until the end of the world.” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:298.) D&C 88:102. Who Are Those “Who Shall Remain Filthy Still”? The sons of perdition, though they will be resurrected (see Alma 11:41; 2 Nephi 9:22; 1 Corinthians 15:22), will be the last to be brought forth. Like those who are telestial, they will suffer in hell before their resurrection. Unlike telestial individuals, they will be cast back into hell after their resurrection (see D&C 76:31–39, 43–49). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 28 minutes ago, teddyaware said: 1) D&C 88:100 is speaking of the sons of perdition who steadfastly refuse to repent and are resurrected “as if there had been no redemption made. Please see above. 1
The Nehor Posted January 2, 2022 Posted January 2, 2022 On 1/1/2022 at 8:24 AM, MacGyver said: I don't know what you mean by "sufficiently suffer?" The idea is that by shedding the blood of someone who is no longer capable of repenting for their sins in this life an atonement is made, which will ease their suffering in the world or worlds to come. Blood atonement has been publicly disavowed. https://www.deseret.com/2010/6/18/20122138/mormon-church-statement-on-blood-atonement
MacGyver Posted January 2, 2022 Posted January 2, 2022 29 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Blood atonement has been publicly disavowed. https://www.deseret.com/2010/6/18/20122138/mormon-church-statement-on-blood-atonement That statement is not a disavowel of "blood atonement."
The Nehor Posted January 2, 2022 Posted January 2, 2022 38 minutes ago, MacGyver said: That statement is not a disavowel of "blood atonement." That is a radical interpretation of the text.
MacGyver Posted January 2, 2022 Posted January 2, 2022 57 minutes ago, The Nehor said: That is a radical interpretation of the text. No, it isn't. Nowhere in that statement does it say that the church has disavowed "blood atonement."
MacGyver Posted January 2, 2022 Posted January 2, 2022 4 hours ago, teddyaware said: D&C 88:100 is speaking of the sons of perdition who steadfastly refuse to repent and are resurrected “as if there had been no redemption made. No, verses 100-101 are talking about those who inherit the Telestial kingdom. Verse 102 is talking about sons of perdition. 102 And another trump shall sound, which is the fourth trump, saying: There are found among those who are to remain until that great and last day, even the end, who shall remain filthy still. So why does verse 100 say that those who ar resurrected and inherit the Telestial kingdom are found under condemnation at judgment day? 4 hours ago, teddyaware said: In the temple, the present realm in which we now live is the “telestial world.” And as I’ve already shown, whether one wants to call this present fallen, unredeemed word a telestial kingdom, it certainly bears very little resemblance the the heavenly mansion of glory that will become the habitation of those resurrected and saved individuals who will become “servants of the Most High.” The temple says that the world in which we now live is the Terrestrial kingdom, not the Terrestrial world. You are making a distinction that isn't made on the temple. According to Brigham Young everyone, except for sons of perdition, are already saved. They aren't saved after suffering in hell. They are saved right now. The name of every son and daughter of Adam are already written in the Lamb's Book of Life. Is there ever a time when they will be taken out of it? Yes, when they become sons of perdition, and not till then. Every person has the privilege of retaining it there for ever and ever. If they neglect that privilege, then their names will be erased, and not till then. All the names of the human family are written there, and the Lord will hold them there until they come to the knowledge of the truth, that they can rebel against him, and can sin against the Holy Ghost; then they will be thrust down to hell, and their names be blotted out from the Lamb's Book of Life. (JD 6:297, Brigham Young, August 15, 1852) 4 hours ago, teddyaware said: You must realize there’s a vast difference between this fallen telestial world of death that is the present habitation of the devil and his hosts and the post-resurrection telestial kingdom of heavenly glory where Satan does not dwell and where the redeemed are ministered to by the Third Member of the Godhead (who testifies of God the Father and Christ), by ministers from the terrestrial kingdom of heavenly glory, as well as by and angels from the celestial kingdom. “ 88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them.” (D&C 76) I recognize that you believe there is a vast difference between the world in which we now life and the Telestial kingdom, but none of the scriptures you have quoted so far say this. Everything you are saying about the Telestial kingdom exists here in the world in which we now live. Does the Holy Ghost adminster to people here on earth? Yes, all people are born with the light of Christ and can feel the influence of the Holy Ghost in this telestial sphere. And angels adminster to people here in this telestial sphere, too. 4 hours ago, teddyaware said: People who serve God in this fallen, mortal telestial world must first become baptized and confirmed members of Christ’s Celestial Kingdom Church before they can be servants of God. Where does it say this? You really think no one besides baptized and confirmed members of the Lord's church can serve God in any capacity? I don't think so. Lots of people who aren't members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints serve God and help bring about his purposes. 4 hours ago, teddyaware said: by now you should be willing to agree that there’s a very bid difference between this fallen world of death and the post-resurrection heavenly kingdom of glory known as the telestial kingdom I'm sorry, but I can't agree to this. I recognize that your belief on this is pretty common within the church, but I don't believe the scriptures and teachings of the Joseph Smith and other early leaders of the church support this.
MacGyver Posted January 2, 2022 Posted January 2, 2022 4 hours ago, CV75 said: D&C 88:100–101. The Resurrection of Telestial Beings “All liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers and all who love and make a lie,” President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote, “shall not receive the resurrection at this time, but for a thousand years shall be thrust down into hell where they shall suffer the wrath of God until they pay the price of their sinning, if it is possible, by the things which they shall suffer” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:297). After they have satisfied the demands of justice by paying for their own sins in hell, they will then be brought forth and resurrected (see D&C 76:103–6). [this answers you last question -- their suffering occurs prior to their resurrection] “These do not live during the millennial reign, but during that time are spending their time in torment, or anguish of soul, because of their transgressions. … [this answers your question about D&C 76:84-85]. “This suffering will be a means of cleansing, or purifying, and through it the wicked shall be brought to a condition whereby they may, through the redemption of Jesus Christ, obtain immortality. Their spirits and bodies shall be again united, and they shall dwell in the telestial kingdom. But this resurrection will not come until the end of the world.” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:298.) I understand and agree with all of this. But what happens to them in the Telestial kingdom after the judgement at the very end of the millennium when, according to D&C 88:100, they are still found under condemnation?
CV75 Posted January 2, 2022 Posted January 2, 2022 26 minutes ago, MacGyver said: I understand and agree with all of this. But what happens to them in the Telestial kingdom after the judgement at the very end of the millennium when, according to D&C 88:100, they are still found under condemnation? They live happily ever after, per verse 32: 32 And they who remain shall also be aquickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are bwilling to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received. Note that verse 100 reads they "are to be judged, and are found under bcondemnation..." They have not yet been resurrected and judged (they are yet to be judged), but are found under the state of condemnation as spirits in prison. This is where they suffer their punishment in order to receive the telestial glory they are willing to receive. It is interesting to me that they must suffer the wrath of God before they can receive the free gift of immortality alone (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:298.), but that makes sense in that immortality is granted to the righteous sooner than the wicked, and in the meantime the wicked are none too happy waiting. 1
MacGyver Posted January 2, 2022 Posted January 2, 2022 4 minutes ago, CV75 said: Note that verse 100 reads they "are to be judged, and are found under bcondemnation..." They have not yet been resurrected and judged (they are yet to be judged), but are found under the state of condemnation as spirits in prison. This is where they suffer their punishment in order to receive the telestial glory they are willing to receive. It is interesting to me that they must suffer the wrath of God before they can receive the free gift of immortality alone (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:298.), but that makes sense in that immortality is granted to the righteous sooner than the wicked, and in the meantime the wicked are none too happy waiting. I read verse 100 to say that they are resurrected, judged, and found to be under condemnation at the final judgement. But, I agree that they are suffering in hell during the millennium prior to be resurrected and judged. 9 minutes ago, CV75 said: They live happily ever after, per verse 32: 32 And they who remain shall also be aquickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are bwilling to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received. I don't know that this verse says that they will live happily ever after. It says they will "enjoy that which they are bwilling to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received." What is it that they receive?
CV75 Posted January 2, 2022 Posted January 2, 2022 1 hour ago, MacGyver said: I read verse 100 to say that they are resurrected, judged, and found to be under condemnation at the final judgement. But, I agree that they are suffering in hell during the millennium prior to be resurrected and judged. I don't know that this verse says that they will live happily ever after. It says they will "enjoy that which they are bwilling to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received." What is it that they receive? It does say "enjoy," which means to take satisfaction, pleasure or delight in the possession of something, and which I colloquially rendered as "happily ever after" because the immortal inheritance that they enjoy has no ending. They receive the telestial glory, body and and inheritance (verse verse 31).
MacGyver Posted January 2, 2022 Posted January 2, 2022 9 minutes ago, CV75 said: It does say "enjoy," which means to take satisfaction, pleasure or delight in the possession of something, and which I colloquially rendered as "happily ever after" because the immortal inheritance that they enjoy has no ending. They receive the telestial glory, body and and inheritance (verse verse 31). What do you think life in the Telestial kingdom is like? Do you think people are stuck in this kingdom forever or will they have a chance to progress to a higher kingdom at some point?
Olmec Donald Posted January 3, 2022 Posted January 3, 2022 (edited) Please consider the following to be my opinion only. @MacGyverand @Stargazer, I think one place where our paradigms diverge is this: I believe “an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth” is the old law, and is not the highest level of truth that has been revealed on the subject. I understand that the preponderance of scripture is on the side of “an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth”, though presumably if Joseph Smith had taught a higher law on the subject you would be comfortable with it. To the best of my knowledge he did not, though Jesus did. My guess is that Joseph Smith never got around to studying and inquiring about it, but the canon is not necessarily closed on the subject, as the Lord “may yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.” You both object to my use of the word “vengeance” in some of the places where you would use the word “justice”, and I can understand that. I used rather inflammatory wording for effect, and maybe got more of an effect than I bargained for! For decades I believed and taught pretty much the same thing you guys do, and would likewise have objected to the use of a word with such negative connotations being applied to one of my beliefs. Here is the definition of “vengeance”: “Punishment inflicted or retribution exacted for an injury or wrong.” If you can substitute the word “vengeance” for “justice” without any change to the outcome, then the old law of “an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth” is in play. So you're probably wondering, what does this alleged “higher law” look like? Well for one thing it looks like the last eleven verses of Matthew Chapter Five: ”Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: “But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. “And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. “And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. “Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. “Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. “But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; “That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. “For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? “And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” Lest you have any doubt that this is indeed the higher law, please re-read that last verse. In my opinion the higher law would entail a perspective from which all of the above, including the most unreasonable-sounding sections, the ones I bolded, make perfect sense exactly as written. I think this higher law might be summed up in the New Commandment Jesus gave (John 13:34): “A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.” Or along similar lines, maybe this higher law is summed up in a slightly different way by the Second Great Commandment (which “is like unto the First”), from Matthew 22:39: “Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” Now it's probably not clear from anything I've written thus far how the practical application of this higher law differs from “an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth”. Fortunately we have an example: The woman caught in the act of adultery (John 8:3-11). I assume you're familiar with the story. In this story Jesus does three things: First, he rescues the woman from those who, under the old law, have every right to condemn and execute her. Second, he explicitly does not condemn her. Third, he gives her instruction to correct her behavior (“Go, and sin no more”). What is missing? Condemnation and the associated vengeance-disguised-as-justice which demands the suffering of excruciating pain for sin. Thus also missing is a balancing-of-the-books to ensure that mercy does not rob justice. In this paradigm, justice and mercy are not at odds. They both seek the exact same thing, which is healing and correction. Refer back to the last 11 verses of Matthew Chapter 5 above. Would God expect more of us than of himself? He expects us to NOT condemn so that we may become perfect, therefore presumably He does not abide a lesser law than this. Now you're probably saying, “Wait a minute – condemnation is all throughout the scriptures!” Yes it is, because those most in need of correction are also the least likely to respond to it without the added incentive of escaping condemnation. Those who are whole are not the ones in need of a physician. So God uses scary language for heightened effect on those who need correction the most - see D&C 19:6-12. Condemnation is a big part of Telestial law, which obviously is in play here in this Telestial world, and is to be lain gently aside when its time of usefulness has passed. Please do not mistake “no condemnation” for “no accountability”. I can see how the two could easily be conflated, which is probably why “no condemnation” is not overtly taught in scriptures intended for a Telestial audience. By way of example, in school, beatings are not administered for failures (or at least not anymore), but neither are students issued diplomas they do not deserve. I believe the path is very long and that there are no honorary degrees dispensed anywhere along the way. I believe very literally in these words Jesus spoke to the Nephites (from 3rd Nephi Chapter 27 Verse 27): “What manner of men ought ye to be? Verily I say unto you, even as I am.” If there are any specific questions you guys feel I should respond to let me know, and I will do my best as time allows. I have a disability which makes typing very slow. Edited January 4, 2022 by Olmec Donald 3
CV75 Posted January 3, 2022 Posted January 3, 2022 1 hour ago, MacGyver said: What do you think life in the Telestial kingdom is like? Do you think people are stuck in this kingdom forever or will they have a chance to progress to a higher kingdom at some point? If life there is anything like D&C 76 describes it, on one hand it is far better than what I now enjoy here materially, and not as satisfying as what I now enjoy here spiritually namely, the hope of eternal life in the Church of the Firstborn and all that entails). I don't believe in progression between kingdoms, mostly because people do not stop enjoying what they were willing to receive once and for all (which is better than they ever imagined in the first place) -- the attitude being like a dependency that someone doesn't mind having. In this case, the dependency is on others from higher kingdoms who minister to them to give keep giving them what they gladly receive. 1
MacGyver Posted January 3, 2022 Posted January 3, 2022 38 minutes ago, Olmec Donald said: If there are any specific questions you guys feel I should respond to let me know Two questions for now. Do you believe what is taught in the scriptures? Do you believe that there will be any kind of punishment and suffering for the sinner who doesn't repent? 1
MacGyver Posted January 3, 2022 Posted January 3, 2022 (edited) 24 minutes ago, CV75 said: If life there is anything like D&C 76 describes it, on one hand it is far better than what I now enjoy here materially What do you base this belief on? 24 minutes ago, CV75 said: and not as satisfying as what I now enjoy here spiritually namely, the hope of eternal life in the Church of the Firstborn and all that entails). I think knowing that you have no chance of ever becoming like God or having an eternal family would be absolute hell. I wouldn't find any happiness in that at all. 24 minutes ago, CV75 said: I don't believe in progression between kingdoms I do. I think it's the only thing that makes sense. I don't believe that God intends to prevent 99.9% of his children from becoming like him and inheriting all that he has for all of eternity because they messed up during their mortal lives. The mortal life of a human is like a couple of hours to God. In the span of a couple of hours 99.9% of God's children will forever separate themselves from him, never to receive another chance? I don't believe this. That would not be fulfilling God's work and glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. 24 minutes ago, CV75 said: mostly because people do not stop enjoying what they were willing to receive once and for all (which is better than they ever imagined in the first place) -- the attitude being like a dependency that someone doesn't mind having. In this case, the dependency is on others from higher kingdoms who minister to them to give keep giving them what they gladly receive. I guess this comes back to my question about where you are getting this idea that the Telestial kingdom is so great that you won't even care about the fact that you will never see your Father in Heaven, Jesus Christ, or any other members of your family who inherit the Celestial kingdom ever again, and will never ever become like God? Edited January 3, 2022 by MacGyver 1
Olmec Donald Posted January 3, 2022 Posted January 3, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, MacGyver said: I do [believe in progression between kingdoms]. I think it's the only thing that makes sense. I don't believe that God intends to prevent 99.9% of his children from becoming like him and inheriting all that he has for all of eternity because they messed up during their mortal lives. The mortal life of a human is like a couple of hours to God. In the span of a couple of hours 99.9% of God's children will forever separate themselves from him, never to receive another chance? I don't believe this. That would not be fulfilling God's work and glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. Amen, brother. And to follow up on your Moses 1:39 allusion, God is not going to fail. "The works and the designs and the purposes of God cannot be frustrated, neither can they come to naught." (D&C 3:1) I see the lower two Kingdoms as being stages in the journey rather than final destinations, though I suppose someone could choose to never progress, or to put it off for a really long time. Imo the parables of the lost sheep and of the prodigal son are not limited to earth life. 1 hour ago, MacGyver said: Two questions for now. Do you believe what is taught in the scriptures? Yes, but not to the exclusion of other sources of light and knowledge. A strict interpretation of the scriptures is not the highest authority in my personal life. I believe that God is nether limited to speaking through scripture nor through a particular religion. 1 hour ago, MacGyver said: Do you believe that there will be any kind of punishment and suffering for the sinner who doesn't repent? Absolutely, but I think it would be natural consequences, not retribution imposed on him by more advanced beings. I also think that the ranks of the unrepentant will be extremely sparse in the next life. In a little under four minutes the video at this link describes how I think it probably works: NDE Researcher Kenneth Ring: The Golden Rule Dramatically Illustrated - YouTube I'd be interested in your thoughts on it, if you don't mind. Edited January 3, 2022 by Olmec Donald
mfbukowski Posted January 3, 2022 Posted January 3, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, MacGyver said: What do you think life in the Telestial kingdom is like? Do you think people are stuck in this kingdom forever or will they have a chance to progress to a higher kingdom at some point? Unknowable And if we knew, unspeakable Edited January 3, 2022 by mfbukowski
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