Relationship with Heavenly Parents

[MacGyver]

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

You are suggesting that only belief in God keeps people from doing abhorrent things because it is only rational to do so.

I suggested no such thing.

I asked a question. The goal was to gain a better understanding of Teacum's beliefs, not to suggest that a belief in God is the only thing that keeps people from doing abhorrent things. 

Please don't put words in my mouth.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, MacGyver said:

I suggested no such thing.

I asked a question. The goal was to gain a better understanding of Teacum's beliefs, not to suggest that a belief in God is the only thing that keeps people from doing abhorrent things. 

Please don't put words in my mouth.

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Why does anything we do matter if we just cease to exist when we die and that's it? 

 

[MacGyver]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

Why does anything we do matter if we just cease to exist when we die and that's it? 

Yeah, that's a question I would like to get Teacum's take on. It's not a suggestion that a belief in God is the only thing that keeps people from doing abhorrent things. And if you look at the context of that question, it's even more clear that I wasn't suggesting what you claim.

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, MacGyver said:

Yeah, that's a question I would like to get Teacum's take on. It's not a suggestion that a belief in God is the only thing that keeps people from doing abhorrent things. And if you look at the context of that question, it's even more clear that I wasn't suggesting what you claim.

It is a leading question loaded with implications. I just spelled them out.

[Olmec Donald]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

By this logic Satan is love.

That's right.  

And maybe some day the first and last prodigal son will return to his Father.  Or maybe not.  

The Atonement would have to really be infinite and really be eternal, but maybe it is.

Edited December 30, 2021 by Olmec Donald

[MacGyver]

12 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

It is a leading question loaded with implications. I just spelled them out.

No, it wasn't a leading question. It was just a question. You assumed something that wasn't there. 

[Stargazer]

On 12/29/2021 at 10:37 PM, MacGyver said:

I completely agree with everything you said here. The atonement of Jesus Christ is "blood atonement." In D&C 19, when Jesus said that if we don't repent we must suffer even as he did, that's "blood atonement." "Blood atonement" is all over the scriptures. But you're right, people don't want to talk about it because they think it's "icky" or "offensive" or whatever. 

The problem with blood atonement is that it isn't blood atonement.

What Christ suffered may have peripherally involved shedding his blood, but that was only an outward manifestation, for our benefit. The scourging and the cross itself played barely an ancillary role. That he was scourged and nailed to a cross had literally nothing to do with the atonement, except that it was necessary for us limited-sight mortals to see. This is my opinion, of course, but after a lot of study and contemplation I'm pretty convinced it is true. The Romans and others such at the Carthaginians and even Alexander the Great executed plenty of people on crosses, and plenty of them were nailed as opposed to tied (which is how the two thieves are generally depicted). Many of those thus executed survived longer than Jesus did on his cross, and so arguably suffered more in the body than He. But Jesus's suffering in the body was a mosquito bite compared to what he suffered in spirit in the Atonement, which we could not see. When He says "how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not" he isn't merely saying you need to be crucified to know what its like. It is much, much worse, so that this "suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink"... That is a lot worse than simple crucifixion, and it started in the Garden of Gethsemane. And it ended on the cross, of course, not because of physical processes, but because it was finished, and he voluntarily gave up his mortal life.

[Stargazer]

On 12/30/2021 at 3:20 AM, MacGyver said:

You assumed something that wasn't there. 

Sigh. A lot of that going around.

[MacGyver]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

The problem with blood atonement is that it isn't blood atonement.

What Christ suffered may have peripherally involved shedding his blood, but that was only an outward manifestation, for our benefit. The scourging and the cross itself played barely an ancillary role. That he was scourged and nailed to a cross had literally nothing to do with the atonement, except that it was necessary for us limited-sight mortals to see. This is my opinion, of course, but after a lot of study and contemplation I'm pretty convinced it is true.

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Jesus's suffering in the body was a mosquito bite compared to what he suffered in spirit in the Atonement, which we could not see. When He says "how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not" he isn't merely saying you need to be crucified to know what its like. It is much, much worse, so that this "suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink"... That is a lot worse than simple crucifixion, and it started in the Garden of Gethsemane. And it ended on the cross, of course, not because of physical processes, but because it was finished, and he voluntarily gave up his mortal life.

I wasn't saying that "blood atonement" means that those who refuse to repent will need to be crucified. They will need to suffer excruciating pain even as the Savior did. I don't personally believe that this suffering can be accomplished without a physical body.

The shedding of Christ's blood and his death were central to his infinite atonement. Christ's blood was shed in the Garden of Gethsemane, while he was scourged, and on the cross. He was also killed.

The scriptures say over and over again that we are saved by having our garments washed clean and made white through the blood of Christ.

Edited December 31, 2021 by MacGyver

[Olmec Donald]

3 hours ago, MacGyver said:

those who refuse to repent... will need to suffer excruciating pain even as the Savior did. I don't personally believe that this suffering can be accomplished without a physical body.

So your God can only be appeased by torture, whether it be the torture of the guilty or the torture of the innocent on their behalf?

Who will have the privilege of inflicting this excruciating pain on the physical bodies of the unrepentant?

Edited December 31, 2021 by Olmec Donald

[MacGyver]

8 minutes ago, Olmec Donald said:

So your God can only be appeased by torture, whether it be the torture of the guilty or the torture of the innocent on their behalf?

The demands of justice cannot be met without the extreme suffering and death of either the Savior or the guilty party. This is all over the scriptures, but D&C 19 probably spells it out the most clearly.

9 minutes ago, Olmec Donald said:

Who will have the privilege of inflicting this excruciating pain on the unrepentant?

I don't think that this has been definitively revealed, but Joseph Smith said that man will be his own tormentor. 

[Stargazer]

7 hours ago, MacGyver said:

I wasn't saying that "blood atonement" means that those who refuse to repent will need to be crucified. They will need to suffer excruciating pain even as the Savior did. I don't personally believe that this suffering can be accomplished without a physical body.

And I agree that this is the way it must be. So those who have not repented will be resurrected beforehand. Because a resurrected being cannot die, the punishment cannot be short-circuited by death. And a mortal under such suffering will die. 

7 hours ago, MacGyver said:

The shedding of Christ's blood and his death were central to his infinite atonement. Christ's blood was shed in the Garden of Gethsemane, while he was scourged, and on the cross. He was also killed.

Yes, again I agree, but the bloodshedding is, in my humble opinion, symbolic even if necessary. The central feature of the atonement is the punishment that Christ describes as "how hard to bear you know not".

7 hours ago, MacGyver said:

The scriptures say over and over again that we are saved by having our garments washed clean and made white through the blood of Christ.

And I know this and agree, but the washing in Christ's blood is figurative, not literal. In my humble opinion.

[Stargazer]

4 hours ago, Olmec Donald said:

So your God can only be appeased by torture, whether it be the torture of the guilty or the torture of the innocent on their behalf?

Our God is not yours?

Anyway, "appeased" is not the correct term here. It is Justice itself that makes this demand of punishment. Not that Justice is a person. Have you never heard the expression, "no justice no peace"? It's frequently uttered by people who haven't a real clue about what they are talking about, but it suggests an important principle.

It's not a matter of "just because", mercy cannot rob justice:

• "For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance" D&C 1:31
• "And he said: Thus saith the Lord God — Cursed shall be the land, yea, this land, unto every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, unto destruction, which do wickedly, when they are fully ripe; and as I have said so shall it be; for this is the cursing and the blessing of God upon the land, for the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance."  Alma 45:16

And why can He not look upon it with any allowance? It's essential that justice receive its just due, or else God runs a risk:

• "But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the claw, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God." Alma 42:13,22,23,25,26
• Lehi makes it very clear: "And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away." 2 Ne 2:2

Not that I am a scholar of Islam, but my understanding of Islam is that Allah can forgive any sin, whether or not there was repentance, and Islam also rejects the Atonement of Christ, because God is God and who can make God suffer?. I guess this is somewhat like Nehor's teaching in the Book of Alma, and another false teaching recorded in 2 Nephi:

• And he (Nehor) also testified unto the people that all mankind should be saved at the last day, and that they need not fear nor tremble, but that they might lift up their heads and rejoice; for the Lord had created all men, and had also redeemed all men; and, in the end, all men should have eternal life. Alma 1:4
• And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God. 2 Ne 28:8

In these kinds of theories, God can just say, "Oh, never mind, then! Come on up to Heaven with your sins still staining your soul. It's not important, because I am the Almighty and I can do anything, including disregard Justice." If that's the case, then why did Christ die on the cross? 

Your words "So your God can only be appeased by torture" seem to say that those who sin and do not repent just get a pass. Is this the case? So why did Christ suffer? He Himself set forgiveness upon the condition of repentance. And what was the alternative, if one chose not to repent? The NT uses the term "hell" to describe the suffering, and non-LDS Christians tend to regard the suffering in hell to be never-ending. Now THAT'S torture for you! LDS doctrine holds that the pain of atoning for one's own sin if one doesn't repent to be a temporary matter. That once one has paid for unrepented sin by suffering as Christ suffered, it's done. 

Those who repent can point to Christ's suffering and claim His suffering in place of their own. He is their proxy, and He is able to pass them through the flames, as it were, unpunished, because they sincerely repented. Justice permits this, because Christ, though he suffered for sins, he had none of his own. This is what made his atonement infinite. And how he can forgive all who repent.

4 hours ago, Olmec Donald said:

Who will have the privilege of inflicting this excruciating pain on the physical bodies of the unrepentant?

I don't know. Does it matter, though, or are you just expressing outrage that it is done at all? Are you one of those folks who hold that those who break laws owe no recompense or restoration, and that they should just be chastised for a few minutes and let go? 

And again, why was Christ crucified, and why did he suffer in the Atonement? Did it mean something beyond his suffering, or was it meaningful only for him?

[Calm]

10 hours ago, MacGyver said:

They will need to suffer excruciating pain even as the Savior did. I don't personally believe that this suffering can be accomplished without a physical body.

 

Then it seems highly counterproductive to execute them at least in any fashion that is either quick or relatively painless if someone correctly. 

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Because a resurrected being cannot die, the punishment cannot be short-circuited by death. And a mortal under such suffering will die. 

But the resurrected are assigned to kingdoms of glory, even the murderers and unrepentant….God’s glory which no impure thing can abide.  All punishment therefore needs to be done prior to resurrection. 
 

Suffering for their sins takes place in spirit prison prior to resurrection. 
 

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Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them either on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, “Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit” (D&C 19:16–18). After suffering for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-41-the-postmortal-spirit-world?lang=eng

[Stargazer]

14 minutes ago, Calm said:

But the resurrected are assigned to kingdoms of glory, even the murderers and unrepentant….God’s glory which no impure thing can abide.  All punishment therefore needs to be done prior to resurrection. 

I see what your saying, but Christ suffered though he was in an immortal body that could not die solely as a result of the punishment. If you know of a scripture that says that punishment has to be done prior to resurrection, I'd like to see it. But D&C 19:18 says:

Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink

But immediately before saying this, in verse 17 he says:

But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

If Christ suffered in both body and spirit, how can they suffer "even as I" if they suffer only in spirit?

14 minutes ago, Calm said:

Suffering for their sins takes place in spirit prison prior to resurrection. 

I'm sorry, but no.

14 minutes ago, Calm said:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-41-the-postmortal-spirit-world?lang=eng

The manual may make it look like the punishment of which D&C 19:18 occurs in the spirit prison, but whatever punishment or discomfort they may suffer there is not the punishment they ultimately experience if they refuse to repent. In the last paragraph of the manual chapter we find:

Quote

 

Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them either on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, “Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit” (D&C 19:16–18). After suffering for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom.

 

The paragraph above includes the verse I referenced above, which still contains the "both body and spirit" reference. Even the manual does not identify the timing of the punishment as before their resurrection.  The Atonement of Christ enables them to inherit the Telestial after suffering for their own sins because of the resurrection. Non-resurrected beings cannot even inherit the Telestial Kingdom, but inherit only Outer Darkness, which is not a place of glory.

But to be generous, whether they suffer that eternal punishment in spirit prison or immediately after resurrection but before assignment to the Telestial Kingdom, is six of one or half dozen of another. They get where they're going however they get there. It's just that if the revelation found in D&C 19 is true and accurate, that punishment must occur after resurrection and before assignment to the Telestial.

[Olmec Donald]

@MacGyverand @Stargazer, I don't have time right now but soon as I do I'll reply to you guys.  It may be a few days.

[MacGyver]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

Then it seems highly counterproductive to execute them at least in any fashion that is either quick or relatively painless if someone correctly. 

We don't really know what the suffering of the wicked who refuse to repent looks like.

God said to execute murderers and at other times he has also said to execute people for other serious sins. There is obviously a reason for why he said to do this. 

Based on my understanding of the teachings of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, other early church leaders, and the scriptures on "blood atonement," I believe that the purpose of putting people to death and spilling their blood for murder (and other serious sins when God commands it) is for those who have put themselves beyond the ability to repent in this life, to make an atonement offering for themselves. Making this atonement offering will ease their suffering in the world or worlds to come. 

[MacGyver]

Sounds like we're pretty much on the same page.

9 hours ago, Stargazer said:

And I agree that this is the way it must be. So those who have not repented will be resurrected beforehand. Because a resurrected being cannot die, the punishment cannot be short-circuited by death. And a mortal under such suffering will die. 

I honestly don't know what the suffering for the truly wicked looks like. I know they suffer before they are resurrected. Logic would suggest that they must also suffer in a body in order for it to be anything like what the Savior experienced.

I think the doctrine of eternal lives (sometimes referred to as multiple mortal probations) has something to do with this. 

9 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Yes, again I agree, but the bloodshedding is, in my humble opinion, symbolic even if necessary. The central feature of the atonement is the punishment that Christ describes as "how hard to bear you know not".

I tend to agree that the bloodshedding is symbolic. But I also think there may be a literal aspect of it, too. The shedding of the blood of Christ and His death were absolutely necessary in order to bring about the atonement. I believe that there is some eternal law or principle that requires this. 

9 hours ago, Stargazer said:

And I know this and agree, but the washing in Christ's blood is figurative, not literal. In my humble opinion.

I agree. I don't believe that we will literally have our dirty clothing washed and made white by Jesus' blood. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, MacGyver said:

We don't really know what the suffering of the wicked who refuse to repent looks like.

You think they can sufficiently suffer in the few seconds it takes to die?

[Stargazer]

5 hours ago, MacGyver said:

I think the doctrine of eternal lives (sometimes referred to as multiple mortal probations) has something to do with this. 

This is another topic entirely, but I've often wondered about this. 

One reason for my wondering is the question of whether I've been tested enough in my mortal probation. Is one trip through the meat grinder enough to show that I am, or am not, worthy of exaltation? I think that one trip is sufficient for salvation, but exaltation? I don't know. How can Heavenly Father know that I really am suitable, based on the relatively trivial problems I've had to deal with? 

The solution to this is of course the idea that each of have to do it again and again, but in other circumstances, to make sure that we are thoroughly tested. 

Well, I hope not, myself, but there may be others who wouldn't mind a "do over".

 

[MacGyver]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

You think they can sufficiently suffer in the few seconds it takes to die?

I don't know what you mean by "sufficiently suffer?" 

The idea is that by shedding the blood of someone who is no longer capable of repenting for their sins in this life an atonement is made, which will ease their suffering in the world or worlds to come.

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

The idea is that by shedding the blood of someone who is no longer capable of repenting for their sins in this life an atonement is made, which will ease their suffering in the world or worlds to come.

And how does that work with the below?

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They will need to suffer excruciating pain even as the Savior did. I don't personally believe that this suffering can be accomplished without a physical body.

They need to be executed because they can’t repent to ease their suffering but they need to suffer excruciating pain because they did not repent. And you take away their body so they can’t suffer the way they should. 

[Calm]

Quote

These people did not receive the gospel or the testimony of Jesus either on earth or in the spirit world. They will suffer for their own sins in hell until after the Millennium, when they will be resurrected. “These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.” These people are as numerous as the stars in heaven and the sand on the seashore. They will be visited by the Holy Ghost but not by the Father or the Son. (See D&C 76:81–88, 103–6, 109.)

They suffer for their sins in hell and afterwards, then they are resurrected.  Suffering is apparently over with by the time we come before God purified of sin to be resurrected into immortal bodies.
 

 I would think immortal bodies would make it more difficult to repent. 
 

Once we have had the experience of mortality, I suspect our minds are fully capable of receiving and understanding suffering, including being able to remember and imagine how their bodies reacted and experienced any pain as if they were there, if they need to. They may even be able to experience what others suffered. 
 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-46-the-final-judgment?lang=eng

Edited January 1, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

When the resurrection comes, we shall come forth clothed with immortal bodies; and the persecutions, suffering, sorrow, pain and death, incident to mortality, will be done away forever.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-wilford-woodruff/chapter-8?lang=eng