Relationship with Heavenly Parents

[InCognitus]

9 hours ago, MacGyver said:

That statement is not a disavowel of "blood atonement."

No, but this one is:  "bld tnmnt"

Edit:  Sorry, I couldn't resist.  

Edited January 3, 2022 by InCognitus

[InCognitus]

2 hours ago, MacGyver said:

I think knowing that you have no chance of ever becoming like God or having an eternal family would be absolute hell. I wouldn't find any happiness in that at all.

I agree, and maybe this is what Joseph Smith had in mind when he said:

Quote

A man is his own tormentor and his own condemner. Hence the saying, They shall go into the lake that burns with fire and brimstone.  The torment of disappointment in the mind of man is as exquisite as a lake burning with fire and brimstone. I say, so is the torment of man.  (History of the Church, Vol.6, Ch.14, p.314, JSP: History, 1838–1856, volume E-1 [1 July 1843–30 April 1844].

[MacGyver]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Unknowable 

And if we knew, unspeakable 

Why is that?

[CV75]

11 hours ago, MacGyver said:

What do you base this belief on?

The telestial kingdom is “so great” for those who enjoy it, being the most they are willing to receive. Especially after all that time in hell in fear of the resurrection.

11 hours ago, MacGyver said:

I think knowing that you have no chance of ever becoming like God or having an eternal family would be absolute hell. I wouldn't find any happiness in that at all. 

Perhaps that is simply because you enjoy receiving more, so if you receive less than what you are willing to receive, you would not enjoy it and find it to be a “hell” or a “bondage.” Someone else might simply see it as not fair and want the Father's glory on their own terms.

11 hours ago, MacGyver said:

I do. I think it's the only thing that makes sense.

I don't believe that God intends to prevent 99.9% of his children from becoming like him and inheriting all that he has for all of eternity because they messed up during their mortal lives. The mortal life of a human is like a couple of hours to God. In the span of a couple of hours 99.9% of God's children will forever separate themselves from him, never to receive another chance? I don't believe this. That would not be fulfilling God's work and glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

The best any of us can do is to believe in what makes sense to us. What God intends (Moses 1:39) and what we are willing to do with that (and receive from Him) can be very different things.

“Mortal life” in my mind extends into the spirit world, which is long enough to become a burden (a “bondage” per D&C 45:16, 17 and 138:50) to the righteous, who eagerly anticipate the resurrection.

11 hours ago, MacGyver said:

I guess this comes back to my question about where you are getting this idea that the Telestial kingdom is so great that you won't even care about the fact that you will never see your Father in Heaven, Jesus Christ, or any other members of your family who inherit the Celestial kingdom ever again, and will never ever become like God? 

I get the idea that the telestial kingdom is “so great” for those who enjoy it from the scripture explaining it is what the inhabitants are willing to receive (especially after all that time in hell in fear of the resurrection as taught elsewhere). I'm not so sure they can be apart from those who are ministering to them (D&C 76:88), which would include family members; they are just not living where they live, sealed to Christ and in the Church of the Firstborn. But if it is as you say it is, that is still all they are willing to receive, so they are happy with that.

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

The telestial kingdom is “so great” for those who enjoy it, being the most they are willing to receive. Especially after all that time in hell in fear of the resurrection.

Perhaps that is simply because you enjoy receiving more, so if you receive less than what you are willing to receive, you would not enjoy it and find it to be a “hell” or a “bondage.” Someone else might simply see it as not fair and want the Father's glory on their own terms.

The best any of us can do is to believe in what makes sense to us. What God intends (Moses 1:39) and what we are willing to do with that (and receive from Him) can be very different things.

“Mortal life” in my mind extends into the spirit world, which is long enough to become a burden (a “bondage” per D&C 45:16, 17 and 138:50) to the righteous, who eagerly anticipate the resurrection.

I get the idea that the telestial kingdom is “so great” for those who enjoy it from the scripture explaining it is what the inhabitants are willing to receive (especially after all that time in hell in fear of the resurrection as taught elsewhere). I'm not so sure they can be apart from those who are ministering to them (D&C 76:88), which would include family members; they are just not living where they live, sealed to Christ and in the Church of the Firstborn. But if it is as you say it is, that is still all they are willing to receive, so they are happy with that.

It's probably exactly what most non-members think "heaven" is, and will be just fine hanging out with their old drinking buddies, scoffing at the need of others who think they are better than themselves.

It has been said that if they could have seen the Tlk mortally they might commit suicide to get there

[CV75]

34 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

It's probably exactly what most non-members think "heaven" is, and will be just fine hanging out with their old drinking buddies, scoffing at the need of others who think they are better than themselves.

It has been said that if they could have seen the Tlk mortally they might commit suicide to get there

..and then keep trying just for a bar game: and every time you come back you have to down another!

[Cordelia]

15 hours ago, InCognitus said:

I agree, and maybe this is what Joseph Smith had in mind when he said:

I'd never seen that quote. Thank you.

[MacGyver]

23 hours ago, CV75 said:

I get the idea that the telestial kingdom is “so great” for those who enjoy it from the scripture explaining it is what the inhabitants are willing to receive (especially after all that time in hell in fear of the resurrection as taught elsewhere). I'm not so sure they can be apart from those who are ministering to them (D&C 76:88), which would include family members; they are just not living where they live, sealed to Christ and in the Church of the Firstborn. But if it is as you say it is, that is still all they are willing to receive, so they are happy with that.

I appreciate you sharing your beliefs, but the problem with what you are saying is that the scriptures don't say that the Telestial kingdom is so great. You are reading that into the text. 

You also haven't been able to provide any information on what it is that the heirs of the Telestial kingdom receive, that's so great that they are in a state of true happiness and have no desire to progress. 

The scriptures also do not say that what they receive is all they will ever be willing to receive. It was all they were willing to receive in this life.

If your model is correct, the heirs of the Telestial kingdom will never see anyone from the Celestial kingdom ever again. They will only see ministering angels from the terrestrial kingdom. This means they will not see the Father, Jesus Christ, or member of their mortal family who inherits the Celestial kingdom ever again. 

I don't believe that this is happiness. 

[CV75]

2 hours ago, MacGyver said:

I appreciate you sharing your beliefs, but the problem with what you are saying is that the scriptures don't say that the Telestial kingdom is so great. You are reading that into the text. 

You also haven't been able to provide any information on what it is that the heirs of the Telestial kingdom receive, that's so great that they are in a state of true happiness and have no desire to progress. 

The scriptures also do not say that what they receive is all they will ever be willing to receive. It was all they were willing to receive in this life.

If your model is correct, the heirs of the Telestial kingdom will never see anyone from the Celestial kingdom ever again. They will only see ministering angels from the terrestrial kingdom. This means they will not see the Father, Jesus Christ, or member of their mortal family who inherits the Celestial kingdom ever again. 

I don't believe that this is happiness. 

By "great" (your term, I used it to accommodate you), I mean "surpasses all understanding". So the telestial kingdom is great in that the inhabitants are resurrected, have glory which surpasses all understanding, have a lot of company (innumerable), receive the ministration of the Holy Spirit, and otherwise enjoy what they are willing to receive, which is immortality but not eternal life. If this includes terrestrial angels who are family members, but not celestial family members, they simply might enjoy the former and not the latter!

“And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.” This describes the disposition of everyone, no matter which kingdom they are willing to receive.

The difference between enjoyment and happiness may be semantic, but you will find happiness in whatever you believe provides it, and enjoy that which you are willing to receive, no matter the source. If affixing the teachings of D&C 76 solely to a model for the types of people found in mortality and who, except for sons of perdition, will yet progress to exaltation inspires you to keep the covenants and enjoy the companionship of the Holy Ghost, that is great (as in "surpasses all understanding" j/k) also. But for the sake of discussion, I would like to see you compile the scriptures together in a cogent way that supports your model without referencing your guiding exegesis and extra-textual terminology, to observe the same standard you held up for me. Thank you!

Edited January 4, 2022 by CV75

[mfbukowski]

On 1/2/2022 at 8:58 PM, MacGyver said:

Why is that?

Seriously????

You have to BE God to understand God.  We are like ants trying to understand quantum theory 

Can you answer billions of prayers simultaneously?

Can you tell us how to do that then?

Clearly we are simply not capable of understanding God as He is.  To think we can is..... is....... uh, ..... erroneous .

[mfbukowski]

On 1/3/2022 at 6:12 AM, CV75 said:

Perhaps that is simply because you enjoy receiving more, so if you receive less than what you are willing to receive, you would not enjoy it and find it to be a “hell” or a “bondage.” Someone else might simply see it as not fair and want the Father's glory on their own terms.

This also answers why it is silly to think we can totally understand God now.

Telestial people can be brilliantly smart but simply do not understand what is actually possible to obtain.

They do not aspire to become anything more, because they do not know it is possible.

Once they understand it IS possible, perhaps they would begin to aspire to it

Similarly we worms compared to God cannot possibly understand what is possible for God to do.

We are only advanced a few paragraphs and a few flashes of testimony "ahead" of those who have never heard of such things 

We are all in this thing together 

Edited January 4, 2022 by mfbukowski

[MacGyver]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Seriously????

You have to BE God to understand God.  We are like ants trying to understand quantum theory 

Can you answer billions of prayers simultaneously?

Can you tell us how to do that then?

Clearly we are simply not capable of understanding God as He is.  To think we can is..... is....... uh, ..... erroneous .

Yeah, seriously.

I didn't ask about "understanding God as He is." I didn't ask about understanding how God can "answer billions of prayers simultaneously." I asked about how CV75 pictures the Telestial kingdom.

To which you responded that this is:

"Unknowable 

And if we knew, unspeakable"

Why is it "unknowable" or "unspeakable" how CV75 pictures the Telestial kingdom? 

[CV75]

4 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

Yeah, seriously.

I didn't ask about "understanding God as He is." I didn't ask about understanding how God can "answer billions of prayers simultaneously." I asked about how CV75 pictures the Telestial kingdom.

To which you responded that this is:

"Unknowable 

And if we knew, unspeakable"

Why is it "unknowable" or "unspeakable" how CV75 pictures the Telestial kingdom? 

Because there is a boundary beyond which I cannot put my thoughts, and even more so, my experience with the telestialkingdom, into words.

[MacGyver]

1 minute ago, CV75 said:

Because there is a boundary beyond which I cannot put my thoughts, and even more so, my experience with the telestialkingdom, into words.

Fair enough. When I get a chance I will try and answer your last request to explain my views of the Telestial kingdom using the scriptures (without adding any of my own words). 

I guess we'll see if I can put my view into words. I will give you one sneak peak into my beliefs. My current working theory is that this earth, the one in which we now live, is a perfect example of a Telestial kingdom. I believe every scripture about the Telestial kingdom perfectly matches what we see happening on this earth. 

It will likely take me some time to break all this down from the scriptures and statements by Joseph Smith and other leaders of the church, as this is a topic I haven't previously studied in the same depth as I have other topics. I don't have the scriptures and statements ready. I will need to do some more research and get back to you. 

[CV75]

1 hour ago, MacGyver said:

Fair enough. When I get a chance I will try and answer your last request to explain my views of the Telestial kingdom using the scriptures (without adding any of my own words). 

I guess we'll see if I can put my view into words. I will give you one sneak peak into my beliefs. My current working theory is that this earth, the one in which we now live, is a perfect example of a Telestial kingdom. I believe every scripture about the Telestial kingdom perfectly matches what we see happening on this earth. 

It will likely take me some time to break all this down from the scriptures and statements by Joseph Smith and other leaders of the church, as this is a topic I haven't previously studied in the same depth as I have other topics. I don't have the scriptures and statements ready. I will need to do some more research and get back to you. 

That sounds like a productive exercise, but you can leave out the exegesis of the latter-day prophets for the same reason as you would anyone else's, and they would also be used to support a model you don't believe in, anyway. Just use scriptures, ordered and arranged in a way that make simple, direct and textual sense for showing your model.

I think I've heard this model before. It requires, among other things, that Joseph Smith incorrectly interpreted the vision recorded as D&C76 as post-resurrection kingdoms of glory, and that the correct interpretation of the vision is that it describes the levels of acceptance of the gospel in this world, which extends into and includes the spirit world (paradise/heaven and prison/hell), where telestial-type spirits (and terrestrial spirits, to a lesser degree) suffer for their sins, learn, repent, advance, etc. for as long as it takes for them to be taken up into the celestial kingdom and resurrected as such. Because the spirit world is an extension of mortality, we pick up where we left off in death, with our mortal spirituality intact, and cannot help but want to, and indeed, progress between kingdoms, given what we now know and submit to. In the last day, there is only heaven (the right hand, the sheep, salvation, where God and Christ are with numberless obedient children) and hell (the left hand, the goats, damnation, where the devil is with the very few remaining lost souls, the sons of perdition).

Edited January 5, 2022 by CV75

[MacGyver]

30 minutes ago, CV75 said:

you can leave out the exegesis of the latter-day prophets for the same reason as you would anyone else's, and they would also be used to support a model you don't believe in, anyway. Just use scriptures, ordered and arranged in a way that make simple, direct and textual sense for showing your model.

I consider the latter-day prophets, particularly Joseph Smith and those who were taught directly be him, to be authorities on doctrine. But I will make a point to provide plenty of scriptures.

30 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I think I've heard this model before. It requires, among other things, that Joseph Smith incorrectly interpreted the vision recorded as D&C76 as post-resurrection kingdoms of glory, and that the correct interpretation of the vision is that it describes the levels of acceptance of the gospel in this world, which extends into and includes the spirit world (paradise/heaven and prison/hell), where telestial-type spirits (and terrestrial spirits, to a lesser degree) suffer for their sins, learn, repent, advance, etc. for as long as it takes for them to be taken up into the celestial kingdom and resurrected as such. Because the spirit world is an extension of mortality, we pick up where we left off in death, with our mortal spirituality intact, and cannot help but want to, and indeed, progress between kingdoms, given what we now know and submit to. In the last day, there is only heaven (the right hand, the sheep, salvation, where God and Christ are with numberless obedient children) and hell (the left hand, the goats, damnation, where the devil is with the very few remaining lost souls, the sons of perdition).

I don't believe that the model I'm suggesting requires any of this. What it does require is more than one "mortal life" and "resurrection" on the path to exaltation. 

This is sometimes known as the doctrine of "eternal lives" or "multiple mortal probations." This doctrine was taught by Joseph Smith and by some of his contemporaries. Joseph Smith's King Follett Discourse lays the groundwork for this. There are also scriptures that support it.

Edited January 5, 2022 by MacGyver

[CV75]

1 hour ago, MacGyver said:

I consider the latter-day prophets, particularly Joseph Smith and those who were taught directly be him, to be authorities on doctrine. But I will make a point to provide plenty of scriptures.

I don't believe that the model I'm suggesting requires any of this. What it does require is more than one "mortal life" and "resurrection" on the path to exaltation. 

This is sometimes known as the doctrine of "eternal lives" or "multiple mortal probations." This doctrine was taught by Joseph Smith and by some of his contemporaries. Joseph Smith's King Follett Discourse lays the groundwork for this. There are also scriptures that support it.

That is another model I've heard before, which is well and good. But to take care of the problem of using the same statements from our authorities to justify all sorts of things elevated as so-called "doctrines", and to hold to your expectation to not paraphrase or read into the text, just use the canon to present a model for multiple eternal probations (a non-scriptural term), or eternal lives being defined as God's children having more than one mortal life and resurrection.

[MacGyver]

15 minutes ago, CV75 said:

That is another model I've heard before, which is well and good. But to take care of the problem of using the same statements from our authorities to justify all sorts of things elevated as so-called "doctrines", and to hold to your expectation to not paraphrase or read into the text, just use the canon to present a model for multiple eternal probations (a non-scriptural term), or eternal lives being defined as God's children having more than one mortal life and resurrection.

I don't have any expectation to not paraphrase or read something into the text, when it is supported by a statement by Joseph Smith or someone who was tutored by him. 

But I will nevertheless make sure I support everything with the scriptures. 

[MiserereNobis]

Obviously I’m not familiar with all the terminology of the kingdoms of heaven. But I do want to say that there appears to be a serious limiting of the “infinite” atonement of Christ in this thread. It is especially distressing that some here seem to suggest that someone shedding their own blood can atone for their own sins. Obviously I am not conversant in LDS theology, but my belief is that Christ’s atonement is infinite, which means boundless. God gave Himself for us and doesn’t require our blood to seal the deal.

Sometimes Catholic confession is maligned as being too lenient. I’d actually argue that it’s a pure expression of the fullness of Christ’s atonement and mercy, and those who would add requirements (especially as severe as shedding your own blood) might misunderstand what an infinite atonement, offered by God Himself, means. 

[MacGyver]

On 1/2/2022 at 3:02 PM, CV75 said:

They live happily ever after, per verse 32:

32 And they who remain shall also be ^aquickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are ^bwilling to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.

Upon closer inspection, it would appear that this verse is talking about the sons of perdition and not those who inherit the Telestial kingdom. 

There are 4 classes of people spoken of in D&C 88, Celestial, Terrestrial, Telestial, and sons of perdition.

22 For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.

23 And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory.

24 And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory (sons of perdition).

The same order is repeated.

29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

32 And they who remain (sons of perdition) shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received. 

Same order repeated again.

97 And they who have slept in their graves shall come forth, for their graves shall be opened; and they also shall be caught up to meet him in the midst of the pillar of heaven—

98 They are Christ’s, the first fruits (Celestial), they who shall descend with him first, and they who are on the earth and in their graves, who are first caught up to meet him; and all this by the voice of the sounding of the trump of the angel of God.

99 And after this another angel shall sound, which is the second trump; and then cometh the redemption of those who are Christ’s at his coming; who have received their part in that prison which is prepared for them, that they might receive the gospel, and be judged according to men in the flesh. (Terrestrial)

100 And again, another trump shall sound, which is the third trump; and then come the spirits of men who are to be judged, and are found under condemnation; (Telestial)

101 And these are the rest of the dead; and they live not again until the thousand years are ended, neither again, until the end of the earth.

102 And another trump shall sound, which is the fourth trump, saying: There are found among those who are to remain until that great and last day, even the end, who shall remain filthy still. (sons of perdition)

They "who remain" are the sons of perdition, not those who inherit the Telestial kingdom.

So, it would appear that you were missing applying the phrase "they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received." This phrase applies to the sons of perdition, not the heirs of the Telestial kingdom.

[CV75]

10 hours ago, MacGyver said:

Upon closer inspection, it would appear that this verse is talking about the sons of perdition and not those who inherit the Telestial kingdom. 

There are 4 classes of people spoken of in D&C 88, Celestial, Terrestrial, Telestial, and sons of perdition.

22 For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.

23 And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory.

24 And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory (sons of perdition).

The same order is repeated.

29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

32 And they who remain (sons of perdition) shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received. 

Same order repeated again.

97 And they who have slept in their graves shall come forth, for their graves shall be opened; and they also shall be caught up to meet him in the midst of the pillar of heaven—

98 They are Christ’s, the first fruits (Celestial), they who shall descend with him first, and they who are on the earth and in their graves, who are first caught up to meet him; and all this by the voice of the sounding of the trump of the angel of God.

99 And after this another angel shall sound, which is the second trump; and then cometh the redemption of those who are Christ’s at his coming; who have received their part in that prison which is prepared for them, that they might receive the gospel, and be judged according to men in the flesh. (Terrestrial)

100 And again, another trump shall sound, which is the third trump; and then come the spirits of men who are to be judged, and are found under condemnation; (Telestial)

101 And these are the rest of the dead; and they live not again until the thousand years are ended, neither again, until the end of the earth.

102 And another trump shall sound, which is the fourth trump, saying: There are found among those who are to remain until that great and last day, even the end, who shall remain filthy still. (sons of perdition)

They "who remain" are the sons of perdition, not those who inherit the Telestial kingdom.

So, it would appear that you were missing applying the phrase "they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received." This phrase applies to the sons of perdition, not the heirs of the Telestial kingdom.

As an eternal principle of agency, it is talking about any soul entering any kingdom: they "enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received." An exalted person enters the celestial kingdom to enjoy the fulness they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy the lesser glory they might have received had they not remained on the covenant path by grace. I believe the teaching is presented this order and format to punctuate that God acknowledges the agency He gave to even the least obedient of His children, and judges us all on the same balance.

Edited January 5, 2022 by CV75

[CV75]

11 hours ago, MacGyver said:

I don't have any expectation to not paraphrase or read something into the text, when it is supported by a statement by Joseph Smith or someone who was tutored by him. 

But I will nevertheless make sure I support everything with the scriptures. 

I can find MMP on a blog/website, just as you can find the Plan of Salvation on a Church website. The task, I think, is to present it strictly from the text in accordance with your expectation and evaluation of others' beliefs. This would vastly improve upon the approaches taken on MMP doctrine presented on blogs/websites.

[MacGyver]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

As an eternal principle of agency, it is talking about any soul entering any kingdom: they "enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received." An exalted person enters the celestial kingdom to enjoy the fulness they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy the lesser glory they might have received had they not remained on the covenant path by grace. I believe the teaching is presented this order and format to punctuate that God acknowledges the agency He gave to even the least obedient of His children, and judges us all on the same balance.

The verse you quoted was speaking specifically of sons of perdition and they certainly do not "live happily ever after." And since they don't live happily ever after, I think it's a real stretch to apply a verse about sons of perdition "enjoying that which they were willing to receive" to the heirs of the Telestial kingdom and then claiming this shows that they "live happily ever after." 

Are there any other scriptures you can use to support your claim that the heirs of the Telestial kingdom "live happily ever after" and will be perfectly content and satisfied living in the Telestial kingdom for all of eternity with no hope of progressing?

[MacGyver]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I can find MMP on a blog/website, just as you can find the Plan of Salvation on a Church website. The task, I think, is to present it strictly from the text in accordance with your expectation and evaluation of others' beliefs. This would vastly improve upon the approaches taken on MMP doctrine presented on blogs/websites.

I'm sure you can find theories about MMP on blogs/websites, though it would be helpful to know which ones you are referring to. I would suspect that they all use scriptures and quotes from Joseph Smith and his contemporaries, which is what I plan to do. 

[Olmec Donald]

16 hours ago, CV75 said:

But to take care of the problem of using the same statements from our authorities to justify all sorts of things elevated as so-called "doctrines", and to hold to your expectation to not paraphrase or read into the text, just use the canon to present a model for multiple eternal probations (a non-scriptural term), or eternal lives being defined as God's children having more than one mortal life and resurrection.

Why should someone be restricted to only using the canon as a source, and then only if they don't "read [anything] into the text", presumably according to the other party's definition of the term?  For example there is nothing in the canon about temple garments, unless you read something into the text.

Since non-canonical sources and reasoning (deductive and/or inductive) are normally used around here, why not in this case?  

3 hours ago, MacGyver said:

I'm sure you can find theories about MMP on blogs/websites, though it would be helpful to know which ones you are referring to. I would suspect that they all use scriptures and quotes from Joseph Smith and his contemporaries, which is what I plan to do. 

I would be interested in what you have to say whether or not it includes non-canonical sources and/or reasoning.  Seems to me that readers can (and will) filter what you write if they wish to exclude non-canonical sources.  

 

Edited January 5, 2022 by Olmec Donald