Relationship with Heavenly Parents

[MacGyver]

22 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

He has allowed the death penalty for murder.

God hasn't just allowed it. He has commanded it. 

Here's another instance of God commanding the death penalty for murder:

18 Thou shalt not suffer a murderer to live.

JST Exodus 22

And Joseph Smith taught:

In debate, George A. Smith said imprisonment was better than hanging. I replied, I was opposed to hanging, even if a man kill another, I will shoot him, or cut off his head, spill his blood on the ground, and let the smoke thereof ascend up to God; and if ever I have the privilege of making a law on that subject, I will have it so.

Joseph Smith, History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 7 volumes, edited by Brigham H. Roberts, (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1957), 5:296

Joseph Smith was in favor of the death penalty for murder (particularly he wanted the murderers blood spilt) instead of imprisonment. 

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, MacGyver said:

True. But God inspired the Constitution of the United States which says that a person's life may be taken as a punishment for a crime, provided that they receive due process.

There was also a time where capital punishment was prohibited in the USA.

1 hour ago, MacGyver said:

God also said the following about what should happen to a murderer:

12 And whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed; for man shall not shed the blood of man.

JST Genesis 9

19 And again, I say, thou shalt not kill; but he that killeth shall die.

D&C 42

God has perscribed the death penalty for murder. Governments can of course ignore this and do whatever they please, though.

So what?  Sabbath breakers and fornicators used to be stoned. Using bronze aged nomadic laws that are thousands of years old is foolish in many things.  Do you follow the dietary restrictions from the Law of Moses?  As I said before we should hope humans have matured beyond a lot of this but apparently not.

[MacGyver]

13 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Like I said before if I really need to explain it to you I think I cannot help you with this.  Sorry.

I don't understand why you personally find the death penalty barbaric in all cases, so can you please explain why you believe it is barbaric?

 

[Teancum]

Just now, MacGyver said:

I don't understand why you personally find the death penalty barbaric in all cases, so can you please explain why you believe it is barbaric?

 

 

I already have. I think murder is barbaric even murdering the murderer.  It does not solve anything and research shows it is not a deterrent.

[BRMC]

51 minutes ago, Teancum said:

How so?

How so, what?   I trust that God is a fair and just God, and me using my agency negatively against you isn't going to negatively affect your exaltation.

[teddyaware]

53 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I don't care.  Alma is likely a fictional character anyway.

Perhaps I have misunderstood this passage about I always read it to mean denying the holy ghost not actual murder.

Yes and so? One of the reasons murder is so evil is it deprives the victim of life and pursuit of a happy life. And in LDS terms the opportunity to repent and exercise moral agency.

The plain, simple and straightforward interpretation is that it isn’’t easy to be forgiven for murder, which is a far cry from not being able to be forgiven at all. What you are basically thinking is that being a murderer is equivalent to being a son of perdition, which isn’t true. Even Alma himself was forgiven for murder and then went onto become a great high priest and prophet of God.

13 Yea, I did remember all my sins and iniquities, for which I was tormented with the pains of hell; yea, I saw that I had against my God, and that I had not kept his holy commandments.

14 Yea, and I had murdered many of his children, or rather led them away unto destruction; yea, and in fine so great had been my iniquities, that the very thought of coming into the presence of my God did rack my soul with inexpressible horror.

15 Oh, thought I, that I could be banished and become extinct both soul and body, that I might not be brought to stand in the presence of my God, to be judged of my deeds.

16 And now, for three days and for three nights was I racked, even with the pains of a damned soul (Alma 36).

Of course you know that at the end of Alma’s three days and three nights of suffering as a damned soul he turned to Christ, pleading for forgiveness. And he was completely forgiven by God in a most marvelous way, even to the point where he obtained total peace of conscience.

You are also misinformed about the spirits of the murdered somehow being deprived of their agency and the opportunity to pursue happiness because, even as the Apostle Peter taught, in the spirit world the spirits of dead are judged by what they believe and do there as if they are still living in the flesh; because while in the world of the spirits of the departed dead they are still endowed with the free will to choose to live according to God’s will (or not live according to God’s will if they are rebellious).

Within the great program of preaching the gospel to the dead in the spirit world, the spirits of the murdered are not excluded from the process, and why would they be? What’s so special about the circumstances of being murdered that murdered individuals should for some strange reason be deprived and be excluded from the opportunity to learn about, accept, and live the gospel in the spirit world?

5 Who (all of us ) shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Peter 4)

 

 

Edited December 26, 2021 by teddyaware

[The Nehor]

47 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Yes and so? One of the reasons murder is so evil is it deprives the victim of life and pursuit of a happy life. And in LDS terms the opportunity to repent and exercise moral agency.

Meh, in my experience those are overrated.

[MacGyver]

6 hours ago, Teancum said:

 

It does not solve anything

It serves justice. It is just that a person who murders another forfeits their own life. 

6 hours ago, Teancum said:

research shows it is not a deterrent

This is what those who wish to abolish the death penalty claim, but there is actually just as much evidence, if not more so, that the death penalty does act as a deterrent and therefore saves lives. See for example:

https://www.heritage.org/testimony/the-death-penalty-deters-crime-and-saves-lives

 

Edited December 26, 2021 by MacGyver

[The Nehor]

3 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

The plain, simple and straightforward interpretation is that it isn’’t easy to be forgiven for murder, which is a far cry from not being able to be forgiven at all. What you are basically thinking is that being a murderer to being a son of perdition, which isn’t true. Even Alma himself was forgiven for murder and then went onto become a great high priest and prophet of God.

13 Yea, I did remember all my sins and iniquities, for which I was tormented with the pains of hell; yea, I saw that I had against my God, and that I had not kept his holy commandments.

14 Yea, and I had murdered many of his children, or rather led them away unto destruction; yea, and in fine so great had been my iniquities, that the very thought of coming into the presence of my God did rack my soul with inexpressible horror.

15 Oh, thought I, that I could be banished and become extinct both soul and body, that I might not be brought to stand in the presence of my God, to be judged of my deeds.

16 And now, for three days and for three nights was I racked, even with the pains of a damned soul (Alma 36).

Of course you know that at the end of Alma’s three days and three nights of suffering as a damned soul he turned to Christ, pleading for forgiveness. And he was completely forgiven by God in a most marvelous way, even to the point where he obtained total peace of conscience.

You are also misinformed about the spirits of the murdered somehow being deprived of their agency and the opportunity to pursue happiness because, even as the Apostle Peter taught, in the spirit world the spirits of dead are judged by what they believe and do there as if they are still living in the flesh, because while in the world of the spirits of the departed dead they are still endowed with the free will to choose to live according to God’s will (or not live according to God’s will if they are rebellious).

Within the great program of preaching the gospel to the dead in the spirit world, the spirits of the murdered are not excluded from the process, and why would they be? What’s so special about the circumstances of being murdered that murdered individuals should for some strange reason deprived and be excluded from the opportunity to learn about, accept, and live the gospel in the spirit world?

 

 

Alma wasn’t talking about literal murder.

[Tacenda]

47 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

God hasn't just allowed it. He has commanded it. 

Here's another instance of God commanding the death penalty for murder:

18 Thou shalt not suffer a murderer to live.

JST Exodus 22

And Joseph Smith taught:

In debate, George A. Smith said imprisonment was better than hanging. I replied, I was opposed to hanging, even if a man kill another, I will shoot him, or cut off his head, spill his blood on the ground, and let the smoke thereof ascend up to God; and if ever I have the privilege of making a law on that subject, I will have it so.

Joseph Smith, History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 7 volumes, edited by Brigham H. Roberts, (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1957), 5:296

Joseph Smith was in favor of the death penalty for murder (particularly he wanted the murderers blood spilt) instead of imprisonment. 

Wha?

[The Nehor]

53 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

God hasn't just allowed it. He has commanded it. 

Here's another instance of God commanding the death penalty for murder:

18 Thou shalt not suffer a murderer to live.

JST Exodus 22

And Joseph Smith taught:

In debate, George A. Smith said imprisonment was better than hanging. I replied, I was opposed to hanging, even if a man kill another, I will shoot him, or cut off his head, spill his blood on the ground, and let the smoke thereof ascend up to God; and if ever I have the privilege of making a law on that subject, I will have it so.

Joseph Smith, History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 7 volumes, edited by Brigham H. Roberts, (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1957), 5:296

Joseph Smith was in favor of the death penalty for murder (particularly he wanted the murderers blood spilt) instead of imprisonment. 

I am going to stand with the apostles on this question.

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/official-statement/capital-punishment
 

[MacGyver]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

I thought only those who deny the HG are Sons of Perdition.  Can you give some support for this?

18 And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come.

D&C 42

31 Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—

32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;

33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;

34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come.

D&C 76

My statement that, "Even sons of perdition will eventually have a chance to progress again, but it will be a long, long road," is doctrinal. 

D&C 76:45-48 and D&C 19:5-12 both say that the suffering of the sons of perdition will have an end. 

Not much has been revealed about what happens to the sons of perdition after their suffering has ended, but Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball gave us some idea of what will happen to them once their suffering is over. Here is my analysis of what they said:
 

President Brigham Young made the following remark about the fate of the sons of perdition:

Jesus will redeem the last and least of the sons of Adam, except the sons of perdition, who will be held in reserve for another time. They will become angels of the Devil… [and] will have to suffer the wrath of God, and go down to hell to dwell in a lake that burns with brimstone and fire, "where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched," and I would not give the ashes of a rye−straw for all they will do. It is good for nothing: there is no life in it − there is no soul in it. This intelligence must endure.

(JD 8:156, Brigham Young, August 26, 1860)

In this statement Brigham Young states that while all the rest of mankind will be redeemed by the Savior by the end of the millennium, the sons of perdition “will be held in reserve for another time.” He also seems to apply the burning in the lake of fire and brimstone in a more literal way, suggesting that by the end of the burning in the lake of brimstone and fire, the sons of perdition will be reduced into something less than “ashes of a rye-straw” and that in this state “there is no life” and “no soul.” He then adds that “[t]his intelligence must endure.”

This suggests that the sons of perdition will be returned to their former state as an intelligence before they were organized into spirits (see Abraham 3:22-23). And presumably if they are returned to their state as raw intelligence, they will be “held in reserve for another time” to once again begin their journey along the path to exaltation, but they will have to begin at the very beginning.  

 

Heber C. Kimball, an original member of the Quorum of the 12 apostles and first counselor to Brigham Young, said the following:

Will any man ever be redeemed upon any other principle than what we are redeemed upon? No. Men must abide the same law, or God Almighty will never redeem them. If they violate that law, they bring damnation upon themselves, and must suffer the consequences of it. Still, I believe the greater part of the inhabitants of the earth will be redeemed; yea, all will be finally redeemed, except those who have sinned against the Holy Ghost or shed innocent blood; and they never can be redeemed until that debt is paid. And I do not know any way for them to pay it, unless they are brought back again to a mortal existence, and pay the debt where they contracted it.

God will make every man pay off the debt he contracts; for a restoration must take place, which has been spoken of by the mouth of all the holy Prophets since the world began.

(JD 6:67, Heber C. Kimball, November 22, 1857)

Heber C. Kimball states that all men, including sons of perdition, can only “ever be redeemed upon [the same] principle [that] we are redeemed upon.” All men must “abide the same law” before “God Almighty will  [ever] redeem them.” He goes on to say that sons of perdition  “never can be redeemed until that debt is paid. And I do not know any way for them to pay it, unless they are brought back again to a mortal existence, and pay the debt where they contracted it.” 

According to Heber C. Kimball the sons of perdition must be brought back again to a mortal existence” and prove themselves by “pay[ing] the debt where they contracted it,” which was while they lived in mortality upon an earth. Heber C. Kimball adds that this is necessary because “God will make every man pay off the debt he contracts; for a restoration must take place, which has been spoken of by the mouth of all the holy Prophets since the world began.” By this he is saying that the sons of perdition must prove themselves worthy in a mortal body in order to be resurrected and redeemed. 

Heber C. Kimball is supported in this statement by D&C 76:37-39, where it says that everyone except for the sons of perdition will be “redeemed in the due time of the Lord” and “be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb.” Before the sons of perdition can be redeemed and resurrected, like the rest of mankind, they must abide by the law upon which this is predicated. And they will have to once again receive a mortal body and dwell on an earth in order to abide by this law. 

 

 

Edited December 26, 2021 by MacGyver

[MacGyver]

9 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I am going to stand with the apostles on this question.

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/official-statement/capital-punishment
 

The Church is politically neutral. That doesn't change what the scriptures and Joseph Smith say about God being in favor of the death penalty for murder. 

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

The Church is politically neutral. That doesn't change what the scriptures and Joseph Smith say about God being in favor of the death penalty for murder. 

It doesn’t. It does mean that I don’t have to advocate or support capital punishment here and now especially since I believe the government I live under uses capital punishment irresponsibly.

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Alma wasn’t talking about literal murder.

Then why did he use that most terrible of all words so carelessly? It’s overwhelmingly likely that what he meant is that his anti-Christ preaching, during the days of his total rebellion against God , led some individuals down the road to spiritual destruction, in some cases culminating in deaths that wouldn’t have occurred if he had not destroyed their minds and hearts with his vicious,  testimony destroying  propaganda.

I can tell you that if I had done the same and caused some people to be led to untimely deaths because, for example, I got them hooked on heroin, I would feel I had murdered them even though I wasn’t the one who actually injected the lethal dose into his or her arm. In the same way, drug lords, especially those who lace heroin with fentanyl, are murderers. Don’t you agree that a person can be a murderer without pulling a trigger or stabbing someone in the heart with a knife.

At any rate, it’s this same Alma who testified that it is possible to be forgiven of murder but that the road to that forgiveness is a very difficult one; an extremely difficult road that he can bear witness to because he had to spend three days and three nights as a damned soul in hell, like unto being cast off into an everlasting perdition, before obtaining forgiveness and being given a clean conscience.

Edited December 26, 2021 by teddyaware

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, teddyaware said:

Then why did he use that most terrible of all words so carelessly? It’s overwhelmingly likely that what he meant is that his anti-Christ preaching, during the days of his total rebellion against God , led some individuals down the road to spiritual destruction, in some cases culminating in deaths that wouldn’t have occurred if he had not destroyed their minds and hearts with his vicious,  testimony destroying  propaganda.

I can tell you that if I had done the same and caused some people to be led to untimely deaths because, for example, I got them hooked on heroin, I would feel I had murdered them even though I wasn’t the one who actually injected the lethal dose into his or her arm. In the same way, drug lords, especially those who lace heroin with fentanyl, are murderers. Don’t you agree that a person can be a murderer without pulling a trigger or stabbing someone in the heart with a knife.

At any rate, it’s this same Alma who testified that it is possible to be forgiven of murder but that the road to that forgiveness is a very difficult one; an extremely difficult road that he can bear witness to because he had to spend three days and three nights as a damned soul in hell, like unto being cast off into an everlasting perdition, before obtaining forgiveness and being given a clean conscience.

He was clear that he was talking about spiritual murder, i.e. leading souls to damnation. There is nothing in the text to suggest they literally physically died. He used such an extreme word because he (rightly) considers spiritual harm on that level to be analogous to murder.

Yes, someone can be a murderer without directly killing someone but your reasoning is a stretch.

[teddyaware]

30 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

He was clear that he was talking about spiritual murder, i.e. leading souls to damnation. There is nothing in the text to suggest they literally physically died. He used such an extreme word because he (rightly) considers spiritual harm on that level to be analogous to murder.

Yes, someone can be a murderer without directly killing someone but your reasoning is a stretch.

He was not at all clear that he was speaking only of spiritual murder. And in fact, spiritual murder is worse in magnitude than physical murder because physical murder can eventually be forgiven, as Alma so testified, but spiritual murder is more serious in its consequences because a murdered body can and will be resurrected, but leading someone to become a son of perdition (a state where the light of God, even in its weakest and dimmest manifestations. no longer dwells within such individuals) cannot be reversed and rectified. The bodies of murdered individuals will eventually be raised from the dead into an even better state of existence that what they once enjoyed, but those who have been spiritually murdered will be as if there was no redemption made.

A question: In accordance with your perceptions on this issue, do you believe Alma’s spiritual punishment would have been more severe if he had committed first degree in addition to spiritual murder?

Edited December 26, 2021 by teddyaware

[The Nehor]

15 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

He was not at all clear that he was speaking only of spiritual murder. And in fact, spiritual murder is worse in magnitude than physical murder because physical murder can eventually be forgiven, as Alma so testified, but spiritual murder is more serious in its consequences because a murdered body can and will be resurrected, but leading someone to become a son of perdition (a state where the light of God, even in its weakest and dimmest manifestations. no longer dwells within such individuals) cannot be reversed and rectified. The bodies of murdered individuals will eventually be raised from the dead into an even better state of existence that what they once enjoyed, but those who have been spiritually murdered will be as if there was no redemption made.

A question: In accordance with your perceptions on this issue, do you believe Alma’s spiritual punishment would have been more severe if he had committed first degree in addition to spiritual murder?

The scriptures do not spend a lot of time rating sins. The few they do put becoming perdition at the top and murder right below it. Rationally I might think leading someone to hell is worse than murder but scripture does not seem to agree.

[Olmec Donald]

2 hours ago, MacGyver said:

It [capital punishment] serves justice. It is just that a person who murderers another forfeits their own life. 

Capital punishment is vengeance, not "justice". 

True justice would be the undoing of injustice.   Vengeance undoes nothing.  

Edited December 26, 2021 by Olmec Donald

[Calm]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Rationally I might think leading someone to hell is worse than murder but scripture does not seem to agree.

Which suggests to me there is repentance for choosing spiritual death, a way for people to see how they were poorly or falsely influenced to reject God and now change their mind about it and do whatever needs to be done to accept God’s blessings.  And if this is true, in the end no one leads another to hell, anyone ending up there is choosing it freely and therefore the only one responsible, imo.

But there is likely much pain and suffering while trying to heal manipulations and misguidance, so it is one of the worse sins to have done so to someone in mortality, imo.

[Olmec Donald]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Which suggests to me there is repentance for choosing spiritual death, a way for people to see how they were poorly or falsely influenced to reject God and now change their mind about it and do whatever needs to be done to accept God’s blessings.  And if this is true, in the end no one leads another to hell, anyone ending up there is choosing it freely and therefore the only one responsible, imo.  [emphasis Donald's]

This makes total sense to me.  

IF our Father and Mother don't want any of their sons or daughters to be cheated; IF the worth of souls is great; IF Christ will not fail to accomplish his work and his glory; and IF God is the most intelligent of all, THEN the Gods have probably already figured out ways of accomplishing their purposes which we haven't even thought of yet. 

[MacGyver]

3 hours ago, Olmec Donald said:

Capital punishment is vengeance, not "justice". 

The Book of Mormon clearly says that justice requires the punishment for sin. And in the case of murder, justice requires that the murderer be put to death.

19 Now, if there was no law given—if a man murdered he should die—would he be afraid he would die if he should murder?
20 And also, if there was no law given against sin men would not be afraid to sin.
21 And if there was no law given, if men sinned what could justice do, or mercy either, for they would have no claim upon the creature?
22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.

Alma 42

 

[Chum]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

a way for people to see how they were poorly or falsely influenced to reject God and now change their mind about it and do whatever needs to be done to accept God’s blessings.  And if this is true, in the end no one leads another to hell, anyone ending up there is choosing it freely and therefore the only one responsible, imo.

Experiencing childhood has taught me that it is possible to raise most children to (as adults) embrace most evil outcomes.

[rodheadlee]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I am going to stand with the apostles on this question.

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/official-statement/capital-punishment
 

They neither support or oppose capital punishment. So they do not oppose it.

[Chum]

14 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

The Book of Mormon clearly says that justice requires the punishment for sin. And in the case of murder, justice requires that the murderer be put to death.

19 Now, if there was no law given—if a man murdered he should die—would he be afraid he would die if he should murder?
20 And also, if there was no law given against sin men would not be afraid to sin.
21 And if there was no law given, if men sinned what could justice do, or mercy either, for they would have no claim upon the creature?
22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.

Alma 42

 

Opens MDDB.

Finds someone trying to instill a desire to execute people.

Closes MDDB.