Relationship with Heavenly Parents

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Costs more to have a death penalty case and execute them than life imprisonment last I checked.

 Useful info possibly, I just glanced at it…

https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/policy-issues/costs

Yes, but that's an artificial cost. Leaving aside the seeming infinite amount of time and effort it takes to bring a death penalty into execution, which is a result of our legal system being rather convoluted, cutting off the offending member is cheaper than supporting it into old age.

That being said, I lean towards life in prison without parole as the proper outcome of the crime of deliberate murder. Although when it comes to rather infamous cases, such as the one where a man killed his pregnant wife and two daughters just so he could freely interbreed with another woman.... I don't know, sometimes the crime seems to require a rather more dreadful punishment. He's in prison now, but has to be kept out of the general prison population because the rest of the murderers are sickened by him and would kill him if he was allowed to mingle with them. And perhaps that would be the best course of action, after all.

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Well I used to be against the death penalty until this guy car jacks two women in their car. Then when he was done with the car he parked it put them in the trunk and lit the car on fire. Sorry, I think the death penalty is just fine for people like that.

Death penalty might be too easy for him. 

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Olmec Donald said:

Imo there is wisdom in the injunction, "Of you it is required to forgive all men."

Technically, if it wasn't you the perp sinned against, it's not your responsibility to forgive him. The Lord's Prayer says "And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors." In fact, you haven't any grounds for blaming him who did not sin against you, so your forgiveness is moot.

[Peacefully]

33 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Yes, but that's an artificial cost. Leaving aside the seeming infinite amount of time and effort it takes to bring a death penalty into execution, which is a result of our legal system being rather convoluted, cutting off the offending member is cheaper than supporting it into old age.

That being said, I lean towards life in prison without parole as the proper outcome of the crime of deliberate murder. Although when it comes to rather infamous cases, such as the one where a man killed his pregnant wife and two daughters just so he could freely interbreed with another woman.... I don't know, sometimes the crime seems to require a rather more dreadful punishment. He's in prison now, but has to be kept out of the general prison population because the rest of the murderers are sickened by him and would kill him if he was allowed to mingle with them. And perhaps that would be the best course of action, after all.

I feel the same way about people who abuse and kill children. My first thought is they should be abused and killed in the same way. But, I see Calm’s point where the people asked to carry out the punishment and execution would be negatively affected and that’s not really fair. My second thought is to put them in a hardcore prison and let the other inmates take care of them. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, MacGyver said:

Doesn't taking life in defense of one's family and country do the same thing. Do you consider that to be barbaric as well?

The Book of Mormon and D&C also command the death penalty for murder. Do you believe that the Book of Mormon and D&C command us to do something barbaric? 

I think doing it not in the heat of the moment or when one is in the power seat and can’t be physically harmed if they don’t execute someone adds a layer of hardening that immediate self defense doesn’t have. 
 

Quote

Do you believe that the Book of Mormon and D&C command us to do something barbaric? 

Yes. I also don’t believe barbarism is wrong at all times. When living among barbarians it may be the appropriate behaviour for a very limited time. But when there are other options, I don’t think it should be the default choice.  

I think the death penalty should be the choice of the criminal.  They should have the option to die whether because they do t want to live in prison for the rest of their lives or because they believe that is the only way they won’t harm another again or because they believe it will help pay for their guilt, though I think it better for them to try and be as productive as they can even if imprisoned and give anything not required for their expenses or education to a victims’ fund. 

[Calm]

15 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

My second thought is to put them in a hardcore prison and let the other inmates take care of them. 

But isn’t that passing the buck. You are promoting murder by people you are punishing or isolating because they harmed people because that is wrong.  Isn’t that hypocritical?

I am not sure there can be a truly moral solution unless we are willing to pay tons more for decent prisons and to keep those nonviolent or less violent separated as well as the government truly trying with decent financing to find the truth about crimes, digging until there are no questions left instead of assuming the defense will defend them against accusation of what may end up as the most likely culprit rather than the culprit.
 

Forced imprisonments should include being protected by those imprisoning you as well as other duties if one takes on the role of caregiver by choice. 

Edited December 25, 2021 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, sunstoned said:

Do I believe there is an omnipotent being that commits mass genocide on his subjects (children?) because they don't worship him in the right way?  No I done.  The mental gymnastics needed for that are too much for me. 

Agreed.

I don't know what kind of a person would believe that!

Who did you have in mind?

[Olmec Donald]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

I am not talking about forgiveness much, because one can do that and still live in fear of further abuse or assault because one knows the person is violent.

Does fear justify execution when there are other options?  Imo incarceration is a better option.   

Just to clarify, imo self defense or defense of a loved one is justified.  I have nearly killed twice under such circumstances.

 

 

 

[Tacenda]

9 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Well I used to be against the death penalty until this guy car jacks two women in their car. Then when he was done with the car he parked it put them in the trunk and lit the car on fire. Sorry, I think the death penalty is just fine for people like that.

Sometimes I wonder if there's a way to make them suffer in prison too. Almost wonder if death is too easy on them. Instead, hope they either have a conscience and feel guilt ridden on a daily basis. Or if they're hated so much they aren't allowed to be near others because they'd get killed possibly, then it would be a long, very lonely life and humans usually suffocate without interaction with others. So maybe torture in prison is easier than death. If this all made sense, haha.

ETA: On the second to the last line on my comment here, I mean't to say it's easier to die than rot in prison if the person A. has a conscience or B. has to be isolated from all the other prisoners. 

And my comment is in regards to rodheadlee's post of the story of the man carjacking the two women's car and then putting them into the trunk and lighting the car on fire. Like they were just garbage to throw away and burn. It's people like this that should suffer torment in prison, because it's maybe easier on them to be put to death. 

Edited December 25, 2021 by Tacenda

[sunstoned]

4 hours ago, MacGyver said:

Why do you consider the death penalty to be barbaric in all cases?

Thou shalt not kill.  That is a centuries old commandment. It didn't come with any qualifiers.  Those came later, all added by men.  If there is a god, then this is the one I believe in.  Strait forward commandments to help people live better and get alone with each other. No BS, just do it, and you will be better off.

I worked as a prison guard while I was going to school.  It was an eye opener to say the least.  I was an naïve country Mormon boy, and I found out real quick what the underside of humanity looks like, and how deprived some people can become.  I remember thinking that there were people here at the point of the mountain, that if they dropped dead today, the world would be a better place.  But, IMO we don't have the right to take their life away.  We can lock them up to protect others from them, but to take their life away would only diminish us as a people and a society. 

 

[sunstoned]

7 hours ago, BRMC said:

Murder is murder to you.  Why would murder be murder to someone with an eternal perspective?   You aren't dead, your mortal body is.

This makes no sense to me at all.  So, its okay to cap someone because their sole lives on? 

[The Nehor]

37 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Sometimes I wonder if there's a way to make them suffer in prison too. Almost wonder if death is too easy on them, instead, hope they either have a conscience and feel guilt ridden on a daily basis. Or if they'ew hated so much they aren't allowed to be near others because they'd get killed possibly, then it would be a long very lonely life and humans usually suffocate without interaction from others. So maybe torture in prison is easier than death. If this all made sense, haha.

The problem with tormenting the guilty is that anyone volunteering to do the tormenting probably deserves to be on the other end too. It is why the vision of hell with demons tormenting people is flawed. The pitchfork would be needed for all of them.

I don’t have a moral problem with the death penalty if used judiciously but I think the United States have shown they are not currently capable of doing that considering the racial disparity and many weird cases it didn’t belong in. Add a governor announcing how many people were killed by the death penalty while he was in office and getting cheers and a standing ovation and I think we are not capable of using it wisely or fairly. Also listened to a judge say something along the lines of it being a pleasure to sentence someone to death. At best it should be a duty….but a pleasure….no.

Then again I think a vast overhaul of our prison system is in order. Most crimes shouldn’t involve prison at all. Add in that many of our jails are borderline torturous and that many people in jails have been convicted of no crime and I think we are doing it very wrong.

[Calm]

41 minutes ago, Olmec Donald said:

Does fear justify execution when there are other options?  Imo incarceration is a better option.   

I can see it as a justification, enough justification I doubt it though I leave the possibility open…is the person a danger to those in the prison, is the victim completely shut down, unable to move on and would it make a difference in giving back their life as well as the impact on others (what if a parent and they were freaking out, keeping their kids at home, never allowing contact with outsiders, etc…would it give the family a chance to have a decent life), no doubt other reasons I could come up with if I cared to…

Realistically speaking, it takes so long to execute anyone in the US I see a situation like this as highly unlikely given it is at least a decade from conviction to execution.  The kids will be adult and may have kids of their own in many cases.  And not sure what impact knowing someone was executed in part because of ‘you’ it could have on a kid.  I can see reporters tracking down family members and screwing up their lives when the time for execution came, them receiving death threats because our world is way too crazy that way.

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, BRMC said:

Murder is murder to you.  Why would murder be murder to someone with an eternal perspective?   You aren't dead, your mortal body is.

So abortion is not a big deal? Huh, interesting perspective.

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

why the vision of hell with demons tormenting people is flawed.

Yes, demons have to be turned into nonhumans, inherently evil to make it seem balanced, maybe even rational if such demons can be called that (this type of being falls into the category of requiring faith for me, but maybe that is due to the impression provided by movie versions)….leave the wicked to the wicked and let the righteous get on with the blessings promised without that burden.  But why would a loving God allow such power to something inherently evil?  Does he really need to torture sinners that way?  If they don’t feel guilt or remorse, why not simply ‘turn on’ that capability.  Let them live as if they were the victim suffering over and over.  Seems more appropriate, but is it just to make someone suffer eternally when their victims did not (this assumes no one ends up damned themselves because they were twisted into killers, etc. by the actions of others).

Edited December 25, 2021 by Calm

[Calm]

50 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

Thou shalt not kill.  That is a centuries old commandment. It didn't come with any qualifiers

Lazy today, so going with wiki though I have seen extensive treatments based on blood guilt, etc.  Do you disagree with the bolder explanation?

Quote

Thou shalt not kill (LXX; οὐ φονεύσεις), You shall not murder (Hebrew: לֹא תִּרְצָח ‎;  lo tirṣaḥ) or You shall not kill(KJV), is a moral imperative included as one of the Ten Commandments in the Torah.[1]

The imperative not to kill is in the context of unlawful killing resulting in bloodguilt.[2]

 

[The Nehor]

58 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

Thou shalt not kill.  That is a centuries old commandment. It didn't come with any qualifiers.  Those came later, all added by men.  If there is a god, then this is the one I believe in.  Strait forward commandments to help people live better and get alone with each other. No BS, just do it, and you will be better off.

It came out at the same time as a law that was pretty liberal with capital punishment offenses.

”They killed him because he was gathering sticks? What?”
”Well, he was reportedly trying to build a fire.”
”Oh, never mind then. He had it coming.”

[The Nehor]

15 minutes ago, Calm said:

Yes, demons have to be turned into nonhumans, inherently evil to make it seem balanced, maybe even rational if such demons can be called that (this type of being falls into the category of requiring faith for me, but maybe that is due to the impression provided by movie versions)….leave the wicked to the wicked and let the righteous get on with the blessings promised without that burden.  But why would a loving God allow such power to something inherently evil?  Does he really need to torture sinners that way?  If they don’t feel guilt or remorse, why not simply ‘turn on’ that capability.  Let them live as if they were the victim suffering over and over.  Seems more appropriate, but is it just to make someone suffer eternally when their victims did not (this assumes no one ends up damned themselves because they were twisted into killers, etc. by the actions of others).

To be clear I don’t believe fallen spirits/devils are the cause of the suffering of the damned. I suspect it is reality giving them enough awareness to know who and what they are.

[Peacefully]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

But isn’t that passing the buck. You are promoting murder by people you are punishing or isolating because they harmed people because that is wrong.  Isn’t that hypocritical?

I am not sure there can be a truly moral solution unless we are willing to pay tons more for decent prisons and to keep those nonviolent or less violent separated as well as the government truly trying with decent financing to find the truth about crimes, digging until there are no questions left instead of assuming the defense will defend them against accusation of what may end up as the most likely culprit rather than the culprit.
 

Forced imprisonments should include being protected by those imprisoning you as well as other duties if one takes on the role of caregiver by choice. 

I get what you are saying, and there are no easy answers. I just want people who hurt children to pay dearly, possibly by forfeiting their right to life. I know it can be a slippery slope, though. Should a mother who kills her child because of untreated post-partum depression be executed? (I don’t think so, but there needs to be intensive, inpatient treatment. Not sure about other punishment) So it’s not black and white but I do think capital punishment should be on the table for the most heinous crimes. 

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The problem with tormenting the guilty is that anyone volunteering to do the tormenting probably deserves to be on the other end too. It is why the vision of hell with demons tormenting people is flawed. The pitchfork would be needed for all of them.

I don’t have a moral problem with the death penalty if used judiciously but I think the United States have shown they are not currently capable of doing that considering the racial disparity and many weird cases it didn’t belong in. Add a governor announcing how many people were killed by the death penalty while he was in office and getting cheers and a standing ovation and I think we are not capable of using it wisely or fairly. Also listened to a judge say something along the lines of it being a pleasure to sentence someone to death. At best it should be a duty….but a pleasure….no.

Then again I think a vast overhaul of our prison system is in order. Most crimes shouldn’t involve prison at all. Add in that many of our jails are borderline torturous and that many people in jails have been convicted of no crime and I think we are doing it very wrong.

Totally agree to the bold, my response was to the guy that car jacked the car and burned the two women alive in the trunk, mainly. And in the back of my mind...a certain couple with the name "Daybell". 

ETA: When I read over my post you at first commented on, I noticed it didn't really say what I mean't to say. I turned 60 today, and I'm feeling it already!

 

Edited December 25, 2021 by Tacenda

[Calm]

Happy late birthday! 

[BRMC]

7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

So abortion is not a big deal? Huh, interesting perspective.

You aren't God

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, BRMC said:

You aren't God

Why do people keep saying that?  

[Teancum]

22 hours ago, MacGyver said:

So you think the death penalty is always barbaric no matter the crime then? 

Pretty much so, yes.

[Teancum]

20 hours ago, BRMC said:

Murder is murder to you.  Why would murder be murder to someone with an eternal perspective?   You aren't dead, your mortal body is.

Murder in LDS theology ends someone's opportunity to grow and  repent and become Christ like. It also ends their moral agency in this life.