Relationship with Heavenly Parents

[Teancum]

19 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

It gets rid of evil people and gets them off of our dime

Who are you to judge their evil and whether they may repent.  As for the $ to support a criminal in jail, I find your approach crass. It is part of society's obligation.  

[Teancum]

19 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Well I used to be against the death penalty until this guy car jacks two women in their car. Then when he was done with the car he parked it put them in the trunk and lit the car on fire. Sorry, I think the death penalty is just fine for people like that.

I get that visceral reaction.  I feel it as well on such things.  But I think life in prison, no chance of parole, solitary confinement, etc is better that spilling the offender's blood.

[Tacenda]

4 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I get that visceral reaction.  I feel it as well on such things.  But I think life in prison, no chance of parole, solitary confinement, etc is better that spilling the offender's blood.

I have some problems with some prisoners that are indeed guilty of a heinous crime to be treated the same of those that do lesser crimes. People like Mark Hoffman, or Lafferty or a serial killer like Bundy. And more people like these of course, such as the child sexual abusers etc. These sickos should not be in an environment that could basically be a really nice college campus, minus the open doors. 

A few years back a homeless man started a fire in the mountains, specifically to go to jail. Some people that live on the streets probably wouldn't mind jail/prison over that. And prison offers an education, the ability to learn a craft, friendship, nutrition, dental/medical, beats the gutter! 

So we need to definitely make prisons segregated according to the crime. I know they probably do a little of that already. 

[BRMC]

19 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Murder in LDS theology ends someone's opportunity to grow and  repent and become Christ like. It also ends their moral agency in this life.

Absolutely.   I'm comfortable that God has a handle on that.

[rodheadlee]

35 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I get that visceral reaction.  I feel it as well on such things.  But I think life in prison, no chance of parole, solitary confinement, etc is better that spilling the offender's blood.

Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out. Not really, but I have to stop reading the news. The things some humans do to other humans is disgusting. I don't know how God keeps His patience. 

[MacGyver]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Pretty much so, yes.

Why?

[MacGyver]

15 hours ago, sunstoned said:

We can lock them up to protect others from them, but to take their life away would only diminish us as a people and a society. 

How does the death penalty "diminish us as a people and a society?"

[MacGyver]

18 hours ago, Calm said:

When living among barbarians it may be the appropriate behaviour for a very limited time. But when there are other options, I don’t think it should be the default choice.  

When was there ever not an option to not put someone to death as a punishment for murder?

 

18 hours ago, Calm said:

I think the death penalty should be the choice of the criminal.  They should have the option to die whether because they do t want to live in prison for the rest of their lives or because they believe that is the only way they won’t harm another again or because they believe it will help pay for their guilt, though I think it better for them to try and be as productive as they can even if imprisoned and give anything not required for their expenses or education to a victims’ fund. 

Why should the murderer who intentionally shed innocent blood be allowed to choose whether they live or die? 

How is that just? What choice did their victim have? 

Edited December 25, 2021 by MacGyver

[MacGyver]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Murder in LDS theology ends someone's opportunity to grow and  repent and become Christ like. It also ends their moral agency in this life.

When it comes to murder in LDS theology, it depends on the level of knowledge and accountability a murderer has. An individual who has reached a sufficient level of knowledge and accountability, who then sheds innocent blood, becomes a son of perdition. 

Those who haven't reached that level may repent of murder and receive forgiveness either in this life or the next.

Even sons of perdition will eventually have a chance to progress again, but it will be a long, long road. 

Edited December 25, 2021 by MacGyver

[Olmec Donald]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Murder in LDS theology ends someone's opportunity to grow and  repent and become Christ like. It also ends their moral agency in this life.

Agreed.  Imo ironically here it is YOU, my atheist/agnostic friend, who are using religion correctly, to offer mercy and the opportunity for self-correction and healing.

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Who are you to judge their evil and whether they may repent.  As for the $ to support a criminal in jail, I find your approach crass. It is part of society's obligation.  

 

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

I get that visceral reaction.  I feel it as well on such things.  But I think life in prison, no chance of parole, solitary confinement, etc is better that spilling the offender's blood.

Agreed.  Imo how a society treats "the least of these" among them is a pretty good yardstick of its moral development, and it seems to me that the non-religious have been leading the way in this area.

 

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Teancum said:

I get that visceral reaction.  I feel it as well on such things.  But I think life in prison, no chance of parole, solitary confinement, etc is better that spilling the offender's blood.

That sounds more horrific to me than being killed. Life in extended solitary is basically a surefire route to insanity.

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I have some problems with some prisoners that are indeed guilty of a heinous crime to be treated the same of those that do lesser crimes. People like Mark Hoffman, or Lafferty or a serial killer like Bundy. And more people like these of course, such as the child sexual abusers etc. These sickos should not be in an environment that could basically be a really nice college campus, minus the open doors. 

A few years back a homeless man started a fire in the mountains, specifically to go to jail. Some people that live on the streets probably wouldn't mind jail/prison over that. And prison offers an education, the ability to learn a craft, friendship, nutrition, dental/medical, beats the gutter! 

So we need to definitely make prisons segregated according to the crime. I know they probably do a little of that already. 

I think you imagine that prisons in the US are much nicer than they are. It is also rare for the homeless to crave confinement. Most would rather be free than have a bed in a small cell. Admittedly conditions do vary. Federal prisons are usually better built and slightly more roomy than state facilities. State facilities vary based on budgets and requirements and whether they practice the barbaric practice of privatized prisons. Here in Texas there are a few that I believe qualify as ‘cruel and/or unusual’.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, MacGyver said:

When it comes to murder in LDS theology, it depends on the level of knowledge and accountability a murderer has. An individual who has reached a sufficient level of knowledge and accountability, who then sheds innocent blood, becomes a son of perdition. 

Those who haven't reached that level may repent of murder and receive forgiveness either in this life or the next.

Even sons of perdition will eventually have a chance to progress again, but it will be a long, long road. 

There is no innocent blood on Earth until at least the Millenium with the sole exception of Christ. Hence why being perdition is described as assenting to Christ’s death.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, MacGyver said:

Why should the murderer who intentionally shed innocent blood be allowed to choose whether they live or die? 

How is that just? What choice did their victim have? 

Because only the murderer is likely to have some inkling of what might be better for their soul? There is no way to make murder fall under any form of reparative justice.

[MacGyver]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

There is no innocent blood on Earth until at least the Millenium with the sole exception of Christ. Hence why being perdition is described as assenting to Christ’s death.

What about the blood of a child or the blood of a righteous person? 

I believe that senslessly shedding the blood of such a person constitutes shedding innocent blood. 

[MacGyver]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Because only the murderer is likely to have some inkling of what might be better for their soul?

Who would know better, the murderer (whose mind would be darkened by their wicked deed) or God?

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

There is no way to make murder fall under any form of reparative justice.

The Book of Mormon would suggest otherwise.

11 Now there is not any man that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another. Now, if a man murdereth, behold will our law, which is just, take the life of his brother? I say unto you, Nay.
12 But the law requireth the life of him who hath murdered;

Alma 34

[Olmec Donald]

13 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out. Not really, but I have to stop reading the news. The things some humans do to other humans is disgusting. I don't know how God keeps His patience. 

The lens we look through can be either devastating or rejuvenating.  Imo the teaching "men [and women] are that they might have joy" justifies hope that when the lens we look though is showing us devastation, it is not showing us the true picture.  

Edited December 26, 2021 by Olmec Donald

[teddyaware]

17 hours ago, Teancum said:

Murder in LDS theology ends someone's opportunity to grow and  repent and become Christ like. It also ends their moral agency in this life.

The Prophet Alma in the Book of Mormon disagrees with you.

6 For behold, if ye deny the Holy Ghost when it once has had place in you, and ye know that ye deny it, behold, this is a sin which is unpardonable; yea, and whosoever murdereth against the light and knowledge of God, it is not easy for him to obtain forgiveness; yea, I say unto you, my son, that it is not easy for him to obtain a forgiveness. (Alma 39)

There’s a very big difference between loosing any and all opportunities to repent and having repentance and forgiveness still be available but “not easy” to obtain.

Edited December 26, 2021 by teddyaware

[The Nehor]

11 hours ago, MacGyver said:

What about the blood of a child or the blood of a righteous person? 

I believe that senslessly shedding the blood of such a person constitutes shedding innocent blood. 

I don’t. I think it is wrong but not shedding innocent blood.

11 hours ago, MacGyver said:

Who would know better, the murderer (whose mind would be darkened by their wicked deed) or God?

God isn’t running our judicial system.

[MacGyver]

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

God isn’t running our judicial system.

True. But God inspired the Constitution of the United States which says that a person's life may be taken as a punishment for a crime, provided that they receive due process.

God also said the following about what should happen to a murderer:

12 And whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed; for man shall not shed the blood of man.

JST Genesis 9

19 And again, I say, thou shalt not kill; but he that killeth shall die.

D&C 42

God has perscribed the death penalty for murder. Governments can of course ignore this and do whatever they please, though.

[The Nehor]

47 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

True. But God inspired the Constitution of the United States which says that a person's life may be taken as a punishment for a crime, provided that they receive due process.

God also said the following about what should happen to a murderer:

12 And whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed; for man shall not shed the blood of man.

JST Genesis 9

19 And again, I say, thou shalt not kill; but he that killeth shall die.

D&C 42

God has perscribed the death penalty for murder. Governments can of course ignore this and do whatever they please, though.

He has allowed the death penalty for murder. I do admit that the Doctrine and Covenants scripture doesn’t convince me that capital punishment is what is being talked about. It just says they “shall die”. Not “kill them”.

[Teancum]

21 hours ago, BRMC said:

Absolutely.   I'm comfortable that God has a handle on that.

How so?

[Teancum]

20 hours ago, MacGyver said:

Why?

Like I said before if I really need to explain it to you I think I cannot help you with this.  Sorry.

[Teancum]

20 hours ago, MacGyver said:

When it comes to murder in LDS theology, it depends on the level of knowledge and accountability a murderer has. An individual who has reached a sufficient level of knowledge and accountability, who then sheds innocent blood, becomes a son of perdition. 

I thought only those who deny the HG are Sons of Perdition.  Can you give some support for this?

20 hours ago, MacGyver said:

Those who haven't reached that level may repent of murder and receive forgiveness either in this life or the next.

Even sons of perdition will eventually have a chance to progress again, but it will be a long, long road. 

I don't think the bolded item is LDS doctrine.  Can you give some support for this as well please?

[Teancum]

17 hours ago, The Nehor said:

That sounds more horrific to me than being killed. Life in extended solitary is basically a surefire route to insanity.

 

Honesty I think it is likely worse than the death penalty.  Thus maybe a fair deterrent?  I would  allow the murderer to at least have books to read and the ability to exercise and get outside maybe an hour a day.

17 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I think you imagine that prisons in the US are much nicer than they are. It is also rare for the homeless to crave confinement. Most would rather be free than have a bed in a small cell. Admittedly conditions do vary. Federal prisons are usually better built and slightly more roomy than state facilities. State facilities vary based on budgets and requirements and whether they practice the barbaric practice of privatized prisons. Here in Texas there are a few that I believe qualify as ‘cruel and/or unusual’.

You are likely correct.

[Teancum]

4 hours ago, teddyaware said:

The Prophet Alma in the Book of Mormon disagrees with you.

I don't care.  Alma is likely a fictional character anyway.

4 hours ago, teddyaware said:

6 For behold, if ye deny the Holy Ghost when it once has had place in you, and ye know that ye deny it, behold, this is a sin which is unpardonable; yea, and whosoever murdereth against the light and knowledge of God, it is not easy for him to obtain forgiveness; yea, I say unto you, my son, that it is not easy for him to obtain a forgiveness. (Alma 39)

Perhaps I have misunderstood this passage about I always read it to mean denying the holy ghost not actual murder.

4 hours ago, teddyaware said:

There’s a very big difference between loosing any and all opportunities to repent and having repentance and forgiveness still be available but “not easy” to obtain.

Yes and so? One of the reasons murder is so evil is it deprives the victim of life and pursuit of a happy life. And in LDS terms the opportunity to repent and exercise moral agency.