Relationship with Heavenly Parents

[Olmec Donald]

 

1 hour ago, MacGyver said:

The Book of Mormon clearly says that justice requires the punishment for sin. And in the case of murder, justice requires that the murderer be put to death.

19 Now, if there was no law given—if a man murdered he should die—would he be afraid he would die if he should murder?
20 And also, if there was no law given against sin men would not be afraid to sin.
21 And if there was no law given, if men sinned what could justice do, or mercy either, for they would have no claim upon the creature?
22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.

Alma 42

Let's look at that exact same passage again but with the emphasis on a different phrase:

19 Now, if there was no law given—if a man murdered he should die—would he be afraid he would die if he should murder?
20 And also, if there was no law given against sin men would not be afraid to sin.
21 And if there was no law given, if men sinned what could justice do, or mercy either, for they would have no claim upon the creature?
22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.

If you treasure vengeance, then you will take advantage of this passage's implied justification for capital punishment.

If you treasure mercy, then you will take advantage of this passage's implied justification for granting the person every opportunity for repentance until God calls them home (i.e. imprisonment for life, perhaps with the possibility of parole).

Where does your treasure lie?

True justice is the undoing of injustice.  The undoing of injustice is the Atonement.  The Atonement is mercy.  Therefore, true justice is mercy.

Edited December 27, 2021 by Olmec Donald

[MacGyver]

4 hours ago, Olmec Donald said:

If you treasure vengeance, then you will take advantage of this passage's implied justification for capital punishment.

If you treasure mercy, then you will take advantage of this passage's implied justification for granting the person every opportunity for repentance until God calls them home (i.e. imprisonment for life, perhaps with the possibility of parole).

Where does your treasure lie?

There is no "implied justification for capital punishment." God has repeatedly said that the murderer should be put to death. It says this in the Bible, Book of Mormon, and D&C. Joseph Smith taught this as well. My treasure lies in upholding what God has declared, instead of twisting what he has said or trying to justify disagreeing with it.

Justice and vengeance are not the same thing. It would not be just to allow a murderer, who senselessly takes the life of another, to live. The desire to give the murderer a chance to repent, while admirable, does not satisfy the demands of justice. How is it just for the murderer to be given a long life to repent, after they have taken this away from their victim? It isn't. 

Fortunately for both the murderer and the victim there is the opportunity to repent in the Spirit World. Putting a murderer to death actually helps them make a partial atonement for what they have done, thus easing the suffering they will have to endure in the next life as part of the repentance process they will have to go through before they are eventually saved in the Telestial Kingdom of heaven. 

4 hours ago, Olmec Donald said:

True justice is the undoing of injustice.  The undoing of injustice is the Atonement.  The Atonement is mercy.  Therefore, true justice is mercy.

Mercy and justice are opposites. The aren't the same thing at all. Mercy cannot rob justice. But through the atonement of Jesus Christ, the demands of justice can be satisfied, while mercy is also extended. It is only because of the atonement of Jesus Christ, that murderers are not left to suffer in hell forever, but are freed from hell at the end of the millennium and saved in the Telestial Kingdom. 

[teddyaware]

19 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The scriptures do not spend a lot of time rating sins. The few they do put becoming perdition at the top and murder right below it. Rationally I might think leading someone to hell is worse than murder but scripture does not seem to agree.

There’s a fatal flaw in your argument, and this is it: The words destruction, destroy (and their variants) appear at least 517 times in the Book of Mormon, and in quite nearly every instance the words destruction and destroy are very closely linked to and virtually synonymous with physical death. Look it up yourself and you’ll see I’m right. Alma’s choice to link the word murder with the word destruction makes perfect sense in light of how the Book of Mormon employs the word destruction and it’s variants. Here’s only one of scores and scores of examples…

21 And they have caused the destruction of this people of whom I am now speaking (the Jaredites), and also the destruction of the people of Nephi. (Ether chapter eight)

Do note that in the case of both the Jaredite and Nephite nations the populations of each were totally exterminated and the word of choice to describe these two instances of massive physical death is the word destruction.

Again, I challenge you to look up how the words destruction and destroy are used in the Book of Mormon and you’ll soon see they are almost invariably used to describe physical death and the destruction of property that naturally occurs with violence.

Alma chose his words well, knowing undoubtedly that some of those whose testimonies he destroyed suffered untimely physical deaths that wouldn’t have occurred had they remained righteous and faithful to the Lord instead of allowing Alma to lead them astray. Also note that if you are correct it’s the only time in the entire Book of Mormon that the word murder doesn’t refer to the unrighteous taking of human life .

Edited December 27, 2021 by teddyaware

[sunstoned]

On 12/25/2021 at 12:35 PM, MacGyver said:

How does the death penalty "diminish us as a people and a society?"

Because it turns us into killers.  

[Teancum]

On 12/25/2021 at 1:38 PM, BRMC said:

Absolutely.   I'm comfortable that God has a handle on that.

I guess you would be from an LDS standpoint.  It will all work out is the default faith answer even if it doesn't make rational sense.

[Teancum]

On 12/25/2021 at 1:59 PM, rodheadlee said:

Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out. Not really, but I have to stop reading the news. The things some humans do to other humans is disgusting. I don't know how God keeps His patience. 

Well sure.  While I am opposed to the death penalty I get it and there are times my gut is for it.  But as Nehor noted, solitary confinement for the rest of your life might be worse than death.  So maybe I am the cruel one?

[Vanguard]

3 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Well sure.  While I am opposed to the death penalty I get it and there are times my gut is for it.  But as Nehor noted, solitary confinement for the rest of your life might be worse than death.  So maybe I am the cruel one?

I used to be a strong advocate for the death penalty. I have softened my stance over the last 1-2 decades though. As unpopular as my new position might be, I now believe there can be a path for letting offenders return into the community after sufficient time behind bars. I don't dare repeat this to my law enforcement family (father & two brothers were LEOs). I have spent long hours contemplating how I would run things if I were king. ; )

[Teancum]

On 12/25/2021 at 2:33 PM, MacGyver said:

Why?

As I have mentioned I don't think killing someone else who killed solves much of anything.  I get the desire for vengeance and even a perceived justice.  I think life without parole in prison is a pretty good alternative.  Murder is an awful thing even when it is done by the state. And there are lots of instances in our justice system when the innocent have been convicted and then later it was found that the conviction was in error.  The risk of killing someone who is actually innocent is pretty high.  I am sure it has happened often.

[Teancum]

On 12/25/2021 at 10:22 PM, MacGyver said:

Who would know better, the murderer (whose mind would be darkened by their wicked deed) or God?

The Book of Mormon would suggest otherwise.

11 Now there is not any man that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another. Now, if a man murdereth, behold will our law, which is just, take the life of his brother? I say unto you, Nay.
12 But the law requireth the life of him who hath murdered;

Alma 34

Scripture holds nor authority for me on this issue. As noted the OT has lots of awful mandates that humans mostly have abandoned. And in the US scripture is not to be used to establish law.  So what the BoM or Bible says for the laws of this nation is irrelevant. Because you think your God says it is not good enough for the law of the land. I am sure you would oppose using Sharia law for the laws of our land as would I.

Edited December 27, 2021 by Teancum

[mfbukowski]

13 hours ago, MacGyver said:

There is no "implied justification for capital punishment." God has repeatedly said that the murderer should be put to death. It says this in the Bible, Book of Mormon, and D&C. Joseph Smith taught this as well. My treasure lies in upholding what God has declared, instead of twisting what he has said or trying to justify disagreeing with it.

Justice and vengeance are not the same thing. It would not be just to allow a murderer, who senselessly takes the life of another, to live. The desire to give the murderer a chance to repent, while admirable, does not satisfy the demands of justice. How is it just for the murderer to be given a long life to repent, after they have taken this away from their victim? It isn't. 

Fortunately for both the murderer and the victim there is the opportunity to repent in the Spirit World. Putting a murderer to death actually helps them make a partial atonement for what they have done, thus easing the suffering they will have to endure in the next life as part of the repentance process they will have to go through before they are eventually saved in the Telestial Kingdom of heaven. 

Mercy and justice are opposites. The aren't the same thing at all. Mercy cannot rob justice. But through the atonement of Jesus Christ, the demands of justice can be satisfied, while mercy is also extended. It is only because of the atonement of Jesus Christ, that murderers are not left to suffer in hell forever, but are freed from hell at the end of the millennium and saved in the Telestial Kingdom. 

Wikipedia:

"Reification (also known as concretism, hypostatization, or the fallacy of misplaced concreteness) is a fallacy of ambiguity, when an abstraction (abstract belief or hypothetical construct) is treated as if it were a concrete real event or physical entity.^[1][2] In other words, it is the error of treating something that is not concrete, such as an idea, as a concrete thing. A common case of reification is the confusion of a model with reality: "the map is not the territory"."

[BRMC]

27 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I guess you would be from an LDS standpoint.  It will all work out is the default faith answer even if it doesn't make rational sense.

It doesn't make rational sense to a mortal being.  We're to trust in the Lord.  I do.  Just separating the wheat from the chaff.

[rodheadlee]

36 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Well sure.  While I am opposed to the death penalty I get it and there are times my gut is for it.  But as Nehor noted, solitary confinement for the rest of your life might be worse than death.  So maybe I am the cruel one?

It's the same thing as hell. When I died, I thought I would be alone for all eternity.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

But as Nehor noted, solitary confinement for the rest of your life might be worse than death. 

@The Nehor

Might be a good compromise though for pro capital punishment folks.

It also makes room for future adjustments 

Edited December 27, 2021 by mfbukowski

[MacGyver]

1 hour ago, sunstoned said:

Because it turns us into killers.  

Does any killing, even when justified, weaken society by turning us into killers? Do you believe that killing in defense of one's self, family, country, or a fellow citizen "turns us into killers?"

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, BRMC said:

It doesn't make rational sense to a mortal being.  We're to trust in the Lord.  I do.  Just separating the wheat from the chaff.

we are all mortal beings. 

[MacGyver]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

I get the desire for vengeance and even a perceived justice.  I think life without parole in prison is a pretty good alternative.

In the case of murder, which is more just, life in prison or the death penalty? Why should someone who murders another be allowed to live? How is that just?

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

Murder is an awful thing even when it is done by the state.

Is justified killing murder?

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

And there are lots of instances in our justice system when the innocent have been convicted and then later it was found that the conviction was in error.  The risk of killing someone who is actually innocent is pretty high.  I am sure it has happened often.

I think this is a valid concern.

What about a situation where it is absolutely certain that the murderer is guilty? Say, a man is caught on camera raping and then torturing a 10 year old girl to death. His finger prints are all over the murder weapon. His DNA is found inside the girl. When the police go to arrest him, he shoots and kills an officer and wounds another, crippling him for life.

Would you consider putting this person to death barbaric?

Edited December 27, 2021 by MacGyver

[MacGyver]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Wikipedia:

"Reification (also known as concretism, hypostatization, or the fallacy of misplaced concreteness) is a fallacy of ambiguity, when an abstraction (abstract belief or hypothetical construct) is treated as if it were a concrete real event or physical entity.^[1][2] In other words, it is the error of treating something that is not concrete, such as an idea, as a concrete thing. A common case of reification is the confusion of a model with reality: "the map is not the territory"."

God said to execute murders in the scriptures. Joseph Smith taught the same thing. Justice and mercy are not the same thing. 

All of these things are concrete. 

[BRMC]

18 minutes ago, Teancum said:

we are all mortal beings. 

And?

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, teddyaware said:

There’s a fatal flaw in your argument, and this is it: The words destruction, destroy (and their variants) appear at least 517 times in the Book of Mormon, and in quite nearly every instance the words destruction and destroy are very closely linked to and virtually synonymous with physical death. Look it up yourself and you’ll see I’m right. Alma’s choice to link the word murder with the word destruction makes perfect sense in light of how the Book of Mormon employs the word destruction and it’s variants. Here’s only one of scores and scores of examples…

21 And they have caused the destruction of this people of whom I am now speaking (the Jaredites), and also the destruction of the people of Nephi. (Ether chapter eight)

Do note that in the case of both the Jaredite and Nephite nations the populations of each were totally exterminated and the word of choice to describe these two instances of massive physical death is the word destruction.

Again, I challenge you to look up how the words destruction and destroy are used in the Book of Mormon and you’ll soon see they are almost invariably used to describe physical death and the destruction of property that naturally occurs with violence.

Alma chose his words well, knowing undoubtedly that some of those whose testimonies he destroyed suffered untimely physical deaths that wouldn’t have occurred had they remained righteous and faithful to the Lord instead of allowing Alma to lead them astray. Also note that if you are correct it’s the only time in the entire Book of Mormon that the word murder doesn’t refer to the unrighteous taking of human life .

Since I don’t believe the term destruction meant total death in the case of the destruction of the entire population of the Jaredites or the Nephites this is not convincing.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

As I have mentioned I don't think killing someone else who killed solves much of anything.  I get the desire for vengeance and even a perceived justice.  I think life without parole in prison is a pretty good alternative.  Murder is an awful thing even when it is done by the state. And there are lots of instances in our justice system when the innocent have been convicted and then later it was found that the conviction was in error.  The risk of killing someone who is actually innocent is pretty high.  I am sure it has happened often.

The one objection I have to this argument is the idea that capital punishment cannot be reversed while other miscarriages of justice can be. Imagine if you are arrested and unjustly convicted of a crime and sentenced to life in prison at the age of 25. When you are 70 the miscarriage of justice is exposed and you are released. Being released doesn’t give you back the lost decades. In fact I think in this scenario I would also prefer to have just been executed.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, MacGyver said:

God said to execute murders in the scriptures. Joseph Smith taught the same thing. Justice and mercy are not the same thing. 

All of these things are concrete.

Dang.

I thought these were feelings inspired by God.

How much is two pounds of mercy?

Wait a minute.

Make it 2 1/2 pounds

I need more, but don't know how big the package will be

I'm a little short of storage space, with my year's supply and all.  Concrete is heavy stuff.

How much is the shipping?

Edited December 27, 2021 by mfbukowski

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, BRMC said:

And?

And nothing.  You solution is simply to trust God. Faith.  So who's God? Which scripturas?  Which interpretation of the same scriptures?  You are mortal but you think you have God figured out apparently. If your default is just trust God (which really means trust God how you think God thinks) then there is nothing more to discuss on the topic at hand.  

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, MacGyver said:

In the case of murder, which is more just, life in prison or the death penalty? Why should someone who murders another be allowed to live? How is that just?

Apparently you and I disagree on this. I am not sure what else you want me to say. Why should someone who murders by put to death?  You think it is because God says so.  

2 hours ago, MacGyver said:

Is justified killing murder?

I think it self defense, defense of family and times of war killing is not murder in the sense of a crime. But the Book of Mormon, which you believe is God's word, has a people that would have rather died then killed in self defense.  That story seems to support that such a course was noble.

2 hours ago, MacGyver said:

I think this is a valid concern.

Good.

2 hours ago, MacGyver said:

What about a situation where it is absolutely certain that the murderer is guilty? Say, a man is caught on camera raping and then torturing a 10 year old girl to death. His finger prints are all over the murder weapon. His DNA is found inside the girl. When the police go to arrest him, he shoots and kills an officer and wounds another, crippling him for life.

Would you consider putting this person to death barbaric?

As I have noted I have visceral reactions to such heinous crimes and my gut reaction would be capital punishment. But if I am true to my personal ethics on this I would still say life in prison, no parole.

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

The one objection I have to this argument is the idea that capital punishment cannot be reversed while other miscarriages of justice can be. Imagine if you are arrested and unjustly convicted of a crime and sentenced to life in prison at the age of 25. When you are 70 the miscarriage of justice is exposed and you are released. Being released doesn’t give you back the lost decades. In fact I think in this scenario I would also prefer to have just been executed.

Thoughtful points.

[BRMC]

42 minutes ago, Teancum said:

And nothing.  You solution is simply to trust God. Faith.  So who's God? Which scripturas?  Which interpretation of the same scriptures?  You are mortal but you think you have God figured out apparently. If your default is just trust God (which really means trust God how you think God thinks) then there is nothing more to discuss on the topic at hand.  

That's why we have a Prophet.