Input on Eating Meat "Sparingly"

[Chum]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

 I was shocked at how tasteless the American chicken was even though visually it was much more attractive. 

If you had to summarize the US with a single sentence, this might be it.

[champatsch]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

There is basically no culture that has ever survived entirely on meat. Probably realized it was suboptimal with all the scurvy and constipation. Most hunter/gatherer societies had varied diets. The pure carnivore human is largely a myth.

Kind of a strawman – I don't think I was saying that there were/are cultures that ate/eat only meat. We're omnivores, and animal-based cultures like the pre-modern Inuit would include a bare minimum of plant-based eating when they had it. Or the Hadza, who are primarily animal-based but eat honey, and some plant foods occasionally. They're an example of a culture not living in the cold that is basically animal-based, with very few other inputs, which aren't essential. These aren't the only ones.

Today there are pure animal-based eaters, living in modern society, doing just fine – no scurvy and no constipation. Some live simply on ruminant meat and water.

And there is of course the curious case of Vilhjalmur Stefansson. "After retiring from Arctic forays in 1918, he estimated he had spent a total of five years living entirely off meat and water." https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/all-meat-diet . He showed in NYC that such a diet was perfectly fine and sustainable.

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

My big pet peeve is the use of the word "carbs" like all things carby are made equal.

Yeah, the current trend* of demonising all carbohydrates is bizarre ... and runs directly counter to the very clear statements in the Word of Wisdom that encourage a diet based on grains, vegetables (herbs), and fruits.

Quote

My diet is heavily "carbs" but I'm in generally good shape ...

Same. For dinner last night, I whipped up a curry full of cauliflower, carrots, green beans, okra, chickpeas, onions, ginger, garlic, coconut milk, smoked red chilli (courtesy of a ward member!), coriander seed, turmeric, asafoetida, curry leaves, and roasted curry powder. An online nutrition calculator estimates it would have had about 138g of carbohydrates. I ate 1/3 of it, so 46g.

I scooped up the curry with four freshly cooked roti made from a mix of stone-ground wholemeal wheat (chakki atta) enriched with soy, chickpea, oat and few other goodies. It looks like that was another 82g of carbohydrates. My weight this morning was 68kg (150lbs). My BMI is solidly in the healthy range, my blood pressure is at the low end of normal, and I have no known health issues.

I am deeply grateful for the gift of the Word of Wisdom. Like all other things that have come from true prophets, it has blessed me immensely and shaped my life in wonderful ways.

-----

*'Social media influencers are dishing out false nutrition and weight loss advice 90% of the time'.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Hamba Tuhan

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

When we moved up to Canada, still poor paying off student debt, my mom brought us up five frozen chickens one time because they were so expensive up there and quite a bit smaller.  (she would shop and cook for us while she was there).  I was shocked at how tasteless the American chicken was even though visually it was much more attractive. 

Chicken farming in the US is messed up. Have a video about how the industry is cruel and inhumane. And not just to the chickens.

Warning: Some profanity.

 

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I don’t have a choice but to eat meat sparingly any more. I can barely afford the past date selections.  

We frequent the day old cold rotisserie chicken display.  $2/whole chicken feeds the family affordably, sometimes twice.

[Calm]

19 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

We frequent the day old cold rotisserie chicken display.  $2/whole chicken feeds the family affordably, sometimes twice.

I actually like the slightly dried out dark meat better. Kind of like eating jerky. But too much salt, so off the list.  

Edited November 18, 2021 by Calm

[poptart]

On 11/16/2021 at 6:11 PM, Stargazer said:

I'm pretty sure I'm self-medicating with food when dealing with my ADD (I'm not hyperactive, but I am definitely highly distractable). I once got a prescription for a med to help me deal with the ADD and it worked, but the side effects were not pleasant. I quit in short order, but having once experienced what it was like to be not in attention deficit it gave me some ability to model my way out of the distractions with some effort.

However, having retired and no longer having as much structure in my life, the ADD seems to have taken over more. I may be seeking a medical solution again soon.

I wonder what 500 cals per day would be like. Might be interesting.

 

On 11/16/2021 at 6:11 PM, Stargazer said:

I'm pretty sure I'm self-medicating with food when dealing with my ADD (I'm not hyperactive, but I am definitely highly distractable). I once got a prescription for a med to help me deal with the ADD and it worked, but the side effects were not pleasant. I quit in short order, but having once experienced what it was like to be not in attention deficit it gave me some ability to model my way out of the distractions with some effort.

However, having retired and no longer having as much structure in my life, the ADD seems to have taken over more. I may be seeking a medical solution again soon.

I wonder what 500 cals per day would be like. Might be interesting.

I've been toying with my diet and doing intermittent fasting, with school and work I don't have the free time to frolic in the woods and on mountain tops as much as I'd like.  I'll balance it with exercise, also supplements.  500 a day is rough, When i've had those days it's a ton of fluids, veggies and things like bolthouse farms salad dressing (Yogurt based, 35 calories a serving).  Anymore my calories are like, 1000-1500 a day, cept days like today lol.  Had the day off, went for a 15 mile jog.  My body was ready to kill me so yeah, today was closer to 2000.  

Anyway, yeah I've found for weight loss/maintenance diet and fasting work like magic.  Exercise is important but it all comes down to diet and the time between eating.  Also, with turkey day next week, yeah I'm pushing it kind of hard.  I did a few 24 hour fasts last week and one yesterday.  I wouldn't advise that but the holidays can really put on weight if you're not careful.  Grateful I don't really drink anymore save wine for special things like the holidays, even then it's rare.  That's another great reason to have LDS friends and family, they don't drink (usually) and most of the ones I know are outdoorsy, perfect match.  

[Chum]

4 minutes ago, poptart said:

I've been toying with my diet and doing intermittent fasting

One of my sons dropped >80lbs by delaying his first meal of the day until 5pm.

[poptart]

2 minutes ago, Chum said:

One of my sons dropped >80lbs by delaying his first meal of the day until 5pm.

How big is he?  That's insane.  Congrats for him BTW, that's awesome.

Edited November 18, 2021 by poptart

[Chum]

1 minute ago, poptart said:

How big is he?  That's insane.  Congrats for him BTW, that's awesome.

Six foot & 200 now. He wasn't obese before. He had inherited his grandpa's large bones.

[poptart]

7 minutes ago, Chum said:

Six foot & 200 now. He wasn't obese before. He had inherited his grandpa's large bones.

That's still crazy, is he healthy?  I've never heard of that.  I have a friend who sometimes doesn't eat for a few days and doesn't drop nearly that much weight.  

[Hamba Tuhan]

8 minutes ago, Chum said:

One of my sons dropped >80lbs by delaying his first meal of the day until 5pm.

One of the things I refuse to do is eat breakfast. I don't need it, and my body doesn't like it. I know people who do need it. Good on them. Unless I'm travelling/camping, I eat 12 meals per week: lunch and dinner on weekdays, dinner on weekends. So much of what we do is merely cultural expectations.

[Chum]

52 minutes ago, poptart said:

That's still crazy, is he healthy?  I've never heard of that.  I have a friend who sometimes doesn't eat for a few days and doesn't drop nearly that much weight.  

Yeah pretty healthy. I'm more worried about the 5-7 gal of water a day he drinks.

I was 6' 155 until my 30s so. I hit 230 last decade and fell back to 196 this summer.

[Chum]

57 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I know people who do need it

I get sick without it but I can skip all the following meals.

[sunstoned]

On 11/16/2021 at 12:38 PM, ksfisher said:

Seems entirely subjective.

Prophetic counsel is best understood within the context in which it is given.  The verse also says that it pleases the Lord if we only use meat at those times.  This seems then to be less of a commandment (thou shalt not...) and more of something we should work towards.

 

We should consider how our dietary choices effect the environment.  Personally, I'm trying to cut down on the amount of beef I eat.

 

The WoW was given not by 'commandment or restraint'.  So you are correct, it is not a commandment, but probably a good idea.  

Now I'm very willing to be corrected on this.  If anyone can produce the revelation that countermanded the "not by commandment" part, I will happily change my view on this.  And since the WoW was given as a revelation and is in our canonized scripture, it would take another revelation to override it.  Not just some GA's opinion.

[Hamba Tuhan]

40 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

Now I'm very willing to be corrected on this.

Not too terribly willing, based on the last time we discussed this point.

Brigham Young in the April 1867 General Conference taught that it had been revealed to him to call upon the Saints to follow the Word of Wisdom in the exact formulation we now observe.

Later that same year, he backed up what he had taught in General Conference with the following: 'There is not a single Saint deprived of the privilege of asking the Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, our Savior, if it is true that the Spirit of the Almighty whispers through His servant Brigham to urge upon the Latter-day Saints to observe the Word of Wisdom. All have this privilege from the apostle to the lay member. Ask for yourselves'.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Hamba Tuhan

[sunstoned]

4 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Not too terribly willing, based on the last time we discussed this point.

Brigham Young in the April 1867 General Conference taught that it had been revealed to him to call upon the Saints to follow the Word of Wisdom in the exact formulation we now observe.

Later that same year, he backed up what he had taught in General Conference with the following: 'There is not a single Saint deprived of the privilege of asking the Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, our Savior, if it is true that the Spirit of the Almighty whispers through His servant Brigham to urge upon the Latter-day Saints to observe the Word of Wisdom. All have this privilege from the apostle to the lay member. Ask for yourselves'.

I am aware of BY's statement, but is talk does not override a canonized revelation.  Remember, this is the guy that brought us the priesthood ban.

[Hamba Tuhan]

8 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

I am aware of BY's statement, but [h]is talk does not override a canonized revelation.

I find it mildly amusing when people who believe in neither prophets nor revelation presume to explain such things down to us.

Here is what you wrote two years ago: 'With that said, show me where any church leader (written or verbal) has made a claim of a second revelation that changed the original WoW'.

When I then showed you precisely what Brigham Young had said in General Conference as Church President about receiving revelation on this point, you immediately shifted the goalposts, and from what I can tell, you've been shifting them ever since.

[Stargazer]

29 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I find it mildly amusing when people who believe in neither prophets nor revelation presume to explain such things down to us.

Here is what you wrote two years ago: 'With that said, show me where any church leader (written or verbal) has made a claim of a second revelation that changed the original WoW'.

When I then showed you precisely what Brigham Young had said in General Conference as Church President about receiving revelation on this point, you immediately shifted the goalposts, and from what I can tell, you've been shifting them ever since.

He wants a "canonized" revelation. I.e. a new section in the D&C, or perhaps an addendum to D&C 89 (or would an "Official Declaration" suffice?). 

Tom, an old friend of mine, once gave me "The Three Questions". Here they are, answered in context with sunstoned's concerns:

1. So what? It doesn't matter to him.
2. Who cares? He doesn't; not really. It's just a convenient cudgel to beat the Church with.
3. What difference does it make? None at all; the Church is still bogus.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Stargazer

[pogi]

14 hours ago, champatsch said:

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/all-meat-diet . He showed in NYC that such a diet was perfectly fine and sustainable.

Did he?

First the study of his health was funded by, guess who?  Yep, The Institue of American Meat Packers!  That’s not suspect at all.

Sustainable you say?  Not according to him.  From your post:

“Despite his grandstanding, Stefansson didn’t think the all-meat diet was for everyone. It was expensive, and he knew there wasn’t enough meat in the world to feed everyone in such a way. “

 

[JAHS]

9 hours ago, sunstoned said:

The WoW was given not by 'commandment or restraint'.  So you are correct, it is not a commandment, but probably a good idea.  

Now I'm very willing to be corrected on this.  If anyone can produce the revelation that countermanded the "not by commandment" part, I will happily change my view on this.  And since the WoW was given as a revelation and is in our canonized scripture, it would take another revelation to override it.  Not just some GA's opinion.

 The word "scripture" not only refers to the 4 Standard works of the Church it can also be described as "whatsoever shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost"

2 And, behold, and lo, this is an ensample unto all those who were ordained unto this priesthood, whose mission is appointed unto them to go forth—
3 And this is the ensample unto them, that they shall speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost.
4 And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation. (D&C 68:2-4; cf. 1:38; 2 Pet. 2:21; 2 Tim. 3:16).

Therefore, anyone who is moved upon by the Holy Ghost while speaking in General Conference and recorded for later reading in the Ensign, including the First Presidency messages, are considered scripture, although they would not be included as part of the Standard works of the Church.
As explained in the Book "Gospel Principles":
"In addition to these four books of scripture, the inspired words of our living prophets become scripture to us. Their words come to us through conferences, Church publications, and instructions to local priesthood leaders." (Gospel Principles Chapter 12)

Revelation from God does not have to be included in our cannon of scriptures. That is your opinion that it must be included.

[champatsch]

20 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

Most of the nutrients can be found in plants or have plant equivalents. We naturally produce carnitine in our bodies. The only ones that are harder to find is B12....but this is still not hard to get. I had more than what I need in my tofu scramble this morning via nutritional yeast.

Yes, I get what you're saying. The way I wrote it wasn't clear, since "plants lack" can mean either "plants don't have" or "plants are deficient in." Only the latter would be accurate for most of these, but for a few of them "don't have" is actually accurate, one of which you pointed out.

In your case, you're ovo-lacto, so you avoid some deficiencies that way. But for strict vegetarians, i.e. vegans, there are deficiencies that build up over time where supplementation is advisable.

(The source for that list was some widely followed doctor, who unfortunately didn't offer any details along with the list.)

Take iron as an example. Online I quickly saw that animal products were often at the top of lists as sources, and that spinach was often the first plant food mentioned. The problem in the case of spinach is that the absorption is much lower than with meat, and then the oxalates and polyphenols block some of the little absorption there is. And of course we don't want a bunch of oxalates accumulating over time, since that can cause various  physical problems. We can steam it to reduce the oxalates, and then we reduce the vit. C. Maybe broccoli is potentially useful for iron, and some think the sulforaphane is beneficial, though it does compete with iodine absorption. What if we look to beans, legumes, seeds, nuts, grains for iron. There we run into phytates which inhibit mineral absorption, including zinc and calcium. It's easy to get osteopenia eating a lot muesli whose base is oatmeal. If we pair seafood or red meat or eggs with spinach, then we get somewhat better absorption of the iron in spinach.

[champatsch]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

First the study of his health was funded by, guess who?  Yep, The Institute of American Meat Packers!  That’s not suspect at all.

Sustainable you say?  Not according to him.  From your post:

“Despite his grandstanding, Stefansson didn’t think the all-meat diet was for everyone. It was expensive, and he knew there wasn’t enough meat in the world to feed everyone in such a way.“

Sustainable for him, certainly, which is all that was meant. And who might have funded it doesn't mean he didn't actually follow such a diet. He did. 

You know, row-crop agriculture presents big problems of its own. I've just been listening to a beef rancher who runs a place called Alderspring in Idaho where they sequester 4 lbs. of carbon for every lb. of beef they produce. They massively enrich the soil and plant biodiversity, while their row-crop neighbors decimate the soil and make it pretty much lifeless. Both he and his wife are trained in ecology. That's an approach we need more of.

Edited November 18, 2021 by champatsch

[BlueDreams]

1 hour ago, champatsch said:

Yes, I get what you're saying. The way I wrote it wasn't clear, since "plants lack" can mean either "plants don't have" or "plants are deficient in." Only the latter would be accurate for most of these, but for a few of them "don't have" is actually accurate, one of which you pointed out.

In your case, you're ovo-lacto, so you avoid some deficiencies that way. But for strict vegetarians, i.e. vegans, there are deficiencies that build up over time where supplementation is advisable.

(The source for that list was some widely followed doctor, who unfortunately didn't offer any details along with the list.)

Take iron as an example. Online I quickly saw that animal products were often at the top of lists as sources, and that spinach was often the first plant food mentioned. The problem in the case of spinach is that the absorption is much lower than with meat, and then the oxalates and polyphenols block some of the little absorption there is. And of course we don't want a bunch of oxalates accumulating over time, since that can cause various  physical problems. We can steam it to reduce the oxalates, and then we reduce the vit. C. Maybe broccoli is potentially useful for iron, and some think the sulforaphane is beneficial, though it does compete with iodine absorption. What if we look to beans, legumes, seeds, nuts, grains for iron. There we run into phytates which inhibit mineral absorption, including zinc and calcium. It's easy to get osteopenia eating a lot muesli whose base is oatmeal. If we pair seafood or red meat or eggs with spinach, then we get somewhat better absorption of the iron in spinach.

The larger problem I have with this is what I've experienced as a vegetarian when talking to people who really love meat.... the hyper focus on potential deficiency in my diet does not come around to acknowledging to potential problems in their own diet. Deficiencies in meat heavy diets and the general deficiencies in american and related diets are often ignored...even though there is evidence that it's a serious problem in so many different avenues of health. There is a special irony of having your diet questioned for what I'm maybe missing, when I'm watching them down a highly processed, low fiber meal. Not that this happens all the time...it happened far more when I was younger. Still, it's ironic. Our bodies were not built to sustain long term meat-heavy diets. Our planet can't afford to have most  (or even a substantial minority) of us eating a meat heavy diet. For that matter, our bodies were also not meant to live off of a handful of food items....some sort of super food that would give us all or most anything we'd need. It was built to collect small portions of vitamins/nutrients from diverse (mostly plant based) foods and with tons of fiber to support our microbiome. This was supplemented by some animal protein ranging from eggs, to insects, to the occasional wild game, and for those who evolved to tolerate it, some milk products. That is my main point. I'm not proclaiming we all go vegan or even vegetarian. But I have serious doubts that the opposite of a meat heavy diet is solvent for our health let alone the stewardship we have for this planet.

   

With luv,

BD

[poptart]

14 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

One of the things I refuse to do is eat breakfast. I don't need it, and my body doesn't like it. I know people who do need it. Good on them. Unless I'm travelling/camping, I eat 12 meals per week: lunch and dinner on weekdays, dinner on weekends. So much of what we do is merely cultural expectations.

What does your workout routine look like?  Do a lot of cardio?  When you're traveling/camping what does your meal intake look like?  

 

Just thought of it, anyone ever read up on Daniel?  He was always my favorite biblical health nut lol.

Edited November 18, 2021 by poptart