Input on Eating Meat "Sparingly"

[Mike Drop]

16 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Two thoughts. First, I’m talking about the lives that factory farmed animals live, not their deaths. Every living thing will die. 
 

Second, I’ve never understood all this what about-ism. I could say something like child rape is bad and you’d be like - well did you know that Lion’s eat the babies of their predecessors. Isn’t that just life on earth?

Yes. 

What’s wrong with the lives of factory animals? Seriously! I’ve never understood why people think the lives of factory animals are so bad. How do you know the chickens that are raised in factories aren’t happy to be inside out of the rain? They don’t need to worry about hawks, eagles, ospreys, fox, bear, snakes, and dozens of other predators. They don’t have to sleep in the rain or freeze to death when it’s cold outside. They have shelter, fans thought blow on them when it’s hot, they have a entire staff that waits on them 24/7. They receive medication, clean water, food, lots of friends to hang out with. How do you know they’re not happy to be inside a warm/cozy shelter unlike their wild relatives? Farm raised chickens, pigs and cows are probably extremely happy the are waited on 24/7 by people. Tell ya truth!! They probably laugh at us for taking such good care of them. If I was a farm raised chicken, I would be lookin out the window of the barn and be totally grateful I wasn’t outside battling the elements and worrying about all the predators that would eat me if I was a wild chicken. Hell!! Some cows get to drink beer and get massages in a daily basis 😂. 

[The Nehor]

20 minutes ago, Mike Drop said:

What’s wrong with the lives of factory animals? Seriously! I’ve never understood why people think the lives of factory animals are so bad. How do you know the chickens that are raised in factories aren’t happy to be inside out of the rain? They don’t need to worry about hawks, eagles, ospreys, fox, bear, snakes, and dozens of other predators. They don’t have to sleep in the rain or freeze to death when it’s cold outside. They have shelter, fans thought blow on them when it’s hot, they have a entire staff that waits on them 24/7. They receive medication, clean water, food, lots of friends to hang out with. How do you know they’re not happy to be inside a warm/cozy shelter unlike their wild relatives? Farm raised chickens, pigs and cows are probably extremely happy the are waited on 24/7 by people. Tell ya truth!! They probably laugh at us for taking such good care of them. If I was a farm raised chicken, I would be lookin out the window of the barn and be totally grateful I wasn’t outside battling the elements and worrying about all the predators that would eat me if I was a wild chicken. Hell!! Some cows get to drink beer and get massages in a daily basis 😂. 

This is insane. It is arguing that safety is somehow the ultimate win. It is like arguing that solitary confinement is actually a good thing because it means that you will never get rained on, no one else can hurt you, and they even have air conditioning in there. I mean, the inmates are probably are laughing at us as they enjoy their luxurious safety.

Of course with the animals the safety lasts until they are ready to be killed and then they die.

I am not opposed to killing animals as food but making them live a life of torment is a bit much. Doesn’t strike me as letting them fill the measure of their creation and probably involves little of joy.

[champatsch]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Production of meat requires a lot more land and effort than agriculture. The problem with any transition to more plant-based food production is that currently most agriculture uses a lot of the waste (manure) from our meat sources. There are experiments in trying to use the waste of vegetation (compost/mulch) to achieve the same effect but it may be difficult to generate enough of it.

With climate change we may have to relocate or shift a lot of agriculture as well. It will be a jarring transition.

Corporations can and do enjoy massive margins on plant agriculture. As a consequence, plant agriculture typically gets promoted over animal agriculture; the benefits of the former are overestimated and the benefits of the latter are underestimated. For example, we ignore that the vast majority of food waste is plant-based, probably because humans know by experience that meat is so much more valuable as a food source than plants.

And the land use is nonoverlapping to a significant degree. Animal agriculture can and does use a huge amount of non-arable agricultural land. Another thing to consider is that meat is nutrient dense compared to plants. So we need to eat much less meat than plants to get critical nutrients.

Humans can survive (and thrive) on meat and water alone (as long as the meat isn't too lean – so called rabbit starvation). But humans cannot survive on wheat or corn or soy or rice and water alone.

[champatsch]

To the WoW's point about the evil and designs of conspiring men in the last days, we are today suffering in a big way from that, which most of us don't know about. For example, US dietary guidelines still tell us to substitute butter with vegetable oils, when it is actually the other way around. We're told that stable saturated fat is bad for us and that unstable polyunsaturated fat is good for us, when it's the other way around.

Our current paradigm comes from Ancel Keys and others, some of whom had highly questionable motives. Anyone can find historical medical analyses in books and online.

If I were to add one thing to the WoW today, it would be to avoid vegetable seed oils at all costs. These weren't around when the revelation was given. The linoleic acid in these heavily used oils breaks down into many toxic, unstable metabolites, which can shut down mitochondrial function. A very small amount of naturally occurring LA is fine, which was the norm in Joseph Smith's day, but the large amount we consume in our current processed food environment can be deadly and is deadly to many. To quote one research ophthalmologist, these seed oils are genotoxic, mutagenic, carcinogenic, atherogenic, thrombogenic, and obesogenic. Anyone who cuts these out of their diet will notice beneficial effects within weeks, such as a reduction in inflammation and regulating of the satiety mechanism.

Edited November 17, 2021 by champatsch

[Teancum]

15 hours ago, The Nehor said:

So meat is like alcohol and meth.

My daughter had a shirt and written on it was "Meat is murder. Tasty, tasty murder,"  I thought it a bit humorous.

[Analytics]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Two thoughts. First, I’m talking about the lives that factory farmed animals live, not their deaths. Every living thing will die. 
 

Second, I’ve never understood all this what about-ism. I could say something like child rape is bad and you’d be like - well did you know that Lion’s eat the babies of their predecessors. Isn’t that just life on earth?

Yes. 

When I first opened this thread, this was my precise response, and its an interesting example of how a deeper understanding of contemporary moral issues can by stymied by revealed religion.

With regards to "eating meat sparingly," the moral lessons we should get from this is:

1- Industrial farm animals need to be treated much more humanely. Doing this will increase the cost and will necessitate eating less of it.

2- For health purposes, in general Americans should eat more vegetables and less grain. Meat is a healthy part of the diet, but in much lower quantities than what many people consume--perhaps 3 ounces per day is ideal for most people.  

 

[Analytics]

2 hours ago, Mike Drop said:

What’s wrong with the lives of factory animals? Seriously! I’ve never understood why people think the lives of factory animals are so bad. How do you know the chickens that are raised in factories aren’t happy to be inside out of the rain? They don’t need to worry about hawks, eagles, ospreys, fox, bear, snakes, and dozens of other predators. They don’t have to sleep in the rain or freeze to death when it’s cold outside. They have shelter, fans thought blow on them when it’s hot, they have a entire staff that waits on them 24/7. They receive medication, clean water, food, lots of friends to hang out with. How do you know they’re not happy to be inside a warm/cozy shelter unlike their wild relatives? Farm raised chickens, pigs and cows are probably extremely happy the are waited on 24/7 by people. Tell ya truth!! They probably laugh at us for taking such good care of them. If I was a farm raised chicken, I would be lookin out the window of the barn and be totally grateful I wasn’t outside battling the elements and worrying about all the predators that would eat me if I was a wild chicken. Hell!! Some cows get to drink beer and get massages in a daily basis 😂. 

Yuval Harari Noah spends a few pages talking about this in his excellent books Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind and Homo Deus: A Brief History of Tomorrow. If you’d like to be enlightened, I highly recommend these two books. He says:

Quote

To the casual observer domesticated animals may seem much better off than their wild cousins and ancestors. Wild boars spend their days searching for food, water and shelter, and are constantly threatened by lions, parasites and floods. Domesticated pigs, in contrast, enjoy food, water and shelter provided by humans, who also treat their diseases and protect them against predators and natural disasters. True, most pigs sooner or later find themselves in the slaughterhouse. Yet does that make their fate any worse than the fate of wild boars? Is it better to be devoured by a lion than slaughtered by a man? Are crocodile teeth less deadly than steel blades?

What makes the fate of domesticated farm animals particularly harsh is not just the way they die, but above all the way they live. Two competing factors have shaped the living conditions of farm animals from ancient times to the present day: human desires and animal needs. Thus humans raise pigs in order to get meat, but if they want a steady supply of meat, they must ensure the long-term survival and reproduction of the pigs. Theoretically this should have protected the animals from extreme forms of cruelty. If a farmer did not take good care of his pigs, they would soon die without offspring and the farmer would starve.

Unfortunately, humans can cause tremendous suffering to farm animals in various ways, even while ensuring their survival and reproduction. The root of the problem is that domesticated animals have inherited from their wild ancestors many physical, emotional and social needs that are redundant on human farms. Farmers routinely ignore these needs, without paying any economic penalty. They lock animals in tiny cages, mutilate their horns and tails, separate mothers from offspring and selectively breed monstrosities. The animals suffer greatly, yet they live on and multiply.

 

Harari, Yuval Noah. Homo Deus: A Brief History of Tomorrow (p. 79). 

A link to photos of where most pigs spend their entire lives.

Would you see the cruelty if we treated humans this way?

Quote

We can congratulate ourselves on the unprecedented accomplishments of modern Sapiens only if we completely ignore the fate of all other animals. Much of the vaunted material wealth that shields us from disease and famine was accumulated at the expense of laboratory monkeys, dairy cows and conveyor-belt chickens. Over the last two centuries tens of billions of them have been subjected to a regime of industrial exploitation whose cruelty has no precedent in the annals of planet Earth. If we accept a mere tenth of what animal-rights activists are claiming, then modern industrial agriculture might well be the greatest crime in history.

Harari, Yuval Noah. Sapiens (p. 379). 

Finally:

Quote

Just as the Atlantic slave trade did not stem from hatred towards Africans, so the modern animal industry is not motivated by animosity. Again, it is fuelled by indifference. Most people who produce and consume eggs, milk and meat rarely stop to think about the fate of the chickens, cows or pigs whose flesh and emissions they are eating. Those who do think often argue that such animals are really little different from machines, devoid of sensations and emotions, incapable of suffering. Ironically, the same scientific disciplines which shape our milk machines and egg machines have lately demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt that mammals and birds have a complex sensory and emotional make-up. They not only feel physical pain, but can also suffer from emotional distress.

Evolutionary psychology maintains that the emotional and social needs of farm animals evolved in the wild, when they were essential for survival and reproduction. For example, a wild cow had to know how to form close relations with other cows and bulls, or else she could not survive and reproduce. In order to learn the necessary skills, evolution implanted in calves – as in the young of all other social mammals – a strong desire to play (playing is the mammalian way of learning social behaviour). And it implanted in them an even stronger desire to bond with their mothers, whose milk and care were essential for survival.

What happens if farmers now take a young calf, separate her from her mother, put her in a closed cage, give her food, water and inoculations against diseases, and then, when she is old enough, inseminate her with bull sperm? From an objective perspective, this calf no longer needs either maternal bonding or playmates in order to survive and reproduce. But from a subjective perspective, the calf still feels a very strong urge to bond with her mother and to play with other calves. If these urges are not fulfilled, the calf suffers greatly.

Harari, Yuval Noah. Sapiens (p. 343).

Edited November 17, 2021 by Analytics

[BlueDreams]

21 hours ago, smac97 said:

I'd like to have a discussion about the two verses in the Word of Wisdom pertaining to meat:

"Sparingly" seems to be very much akin to the "hot drinks" referenced in verse 9.  That is, we are obliged to interpret/construe terms.  The meaning of "hot drinks" is not immediately self-evident to us, but it apparently was to the early Saints:

The Church has, for quite a while now, publicly construed "hot drinks" in this way.

"Sparingly" has also been kinda sorta construed, but it doesn't seem to get nearly as much attention.  From the same link:

"The key word with respect to the use of meat is sparingly."  That doesn't really help clarify much.

In my family eat meat mostly every day, but not in large quanties.  Breakfast rarely involves any (sometimes sausage/bacon).  Lunch will have little or none (lunch meats, for example).  Our dinners, though, usually include a meat component.  

One of my daughters, in her teens, has for a while now been a wishy-washy "vegetarian."  She was okay with fish and animal products (eggs, dairy, etc.), but avoided the Big Three (chicken, pork, beef).  We have accommodated her for quite a while.  I encouraged her to keep up her protein intake via alternative sources like tofu (I served my mission in Taiwan, so I became a fan), rice and beans (long known to form a complete protein), etc.  However, this year she is both on the high school dance team and the swim team.  And she's 15 years old.  So she's growing, and has recently returned to eating meat.  Not only that, whereas she was previously telling us that she found the consumption of mean "gross" (particularly beef), recently she has been craving it and finding it delicious (I took her to In N Out last week for her first burger in about 2 years, and she really enjoyed it).  Her falling off the wagon (which she was never really fully on in the first place) was not surprising, as the vast majority of those who try a vegan or vegetarian diet revert back to consuming meat.

The Word of Wisdom has categorical prohibitions (alcohol, coffee/tea, tobacco (consumption)) and broad endorsements (wholesome herbs, grains, fruit of the vine).  Meat, though, seems to be in a separate "yes, but 'sparingly'" category.  So here are my questions:

1. What, in your view, does "sparingly" mean in the context of eating meat?

2. Has the instruction regarding eating meat "only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine" been lessened by, as the above quote from the church manual notes, "{m}odern methods of refrigeration" and other considerations (other preservation methods such as canning/jarring, freeze drying, etc.)?

3. Can/ought we consider reducing or moderating meat consumption so as to mitigate A) the environmental costs of large-scale livestock farming / animal husbandry, and B) the number of animals killed for our consumption?

Thanks,

-Smac

I know I’ve said this before, but a reminder that I’m a vegetarian. I would currently define myself as a largely Whole Foods plant based vegetarian who eats some eggs (1-2 a day) and a little dairy (mostly cheese). I have been one for almost 20 years and well over half my life. I didn’t go vegetarian for spiritual reasons, But i found spiritual lessons later on from it. My family eats meat sparingly. My daughter, due to her disorder, will either have practically no meat or dairy due to high protein content (I’ve found it a solid blessing that I’ve fostered the diet I have…it’s made it a lot easier to work with my daughter’s food restrictions) and my husband eats mostly fish or chicken pretty sparingly. He’s an opportunistic meat eater as in if it’s there he’ll probably eat it. So it’s usually only 1-3 times a month when visiting others or on a date night or the rare times I buy some for him. He is generally cheap and meat is generally more expensive.

So that is my background that likely influences my thoughts on this. I feel currently my diet is pretty dang close to what’s described in the WOW verses. And I’ve studied it often…as well as a few verses that echo its language. I don’t agree fully with the manual’s interpretation. Yes refrigeration would have been a problem…but meat production at that time was extremely different than it is today. Meat in essence was a luxury and only the wealthy could afford to eat it in large proportions and/or regularly. Often times people look to wealthy diets as the best ones…food as a status symbol basically. (Ps. This is still happening today. As poorer nations get wealthier, meat Consumption goes up.) But this diet would have rather affirmed their variation of balance…saying it was not only good but blessed by God.
 

How i think it should be interpreted for today is more through the lens of both the blessings given, how we’re to use meat products, and the reasons why the WOW was given in general. 1st it’s to be used with thanksgiving and in times with greater need (famine or cold…basically in times of food scarcity or absolute need). Meat in essence is supplemental and exceptional…not a mainstay or as the scripture would describe grains, a “staff of life.” I don’t think most like a blunt reading because very very few people live by it in especially affluent nations. We culturally treat meat as a necessity in our diets. It’s not….it never has been. In blue zones it’s usually a small part of people’s diets. Blue zones are regions that tend to have people with longer lives…which of note, good health and life is one of the blessings promised by the WOW. Not only is meat seen as some form of magical necessity it’s also often more divorced from where it came from (which I thnk ties into the concept of thanks giving)

The WOW also talks about social reasons given. It’s for the weakest of all saints and is because of the conspiring men. Our current meat consumption levels is unsustainable and inherently exploitative. Of nature, of land, of workers, and of us to keep us buying more of something we don’t actually need more of (and quite likely need less of). It’s the opposite of what I picture as wise stewardship. It's also tied with higher cancer, diabetes, and cardiovascular disease rates (tied IMO to the weakest of all...as in those most disposed to health problems)

But again the SAD (standard American diet) doesn’t really live to the standards of the WOW period. We eat very little whole grains, few fruits and veggies, and a ton of meat and highly processed foods/grains. A lot of out diet is out of whack….most people are at least vaguely aware of the problem of processed food. It would take profound changes to our culture and social structure to change that. But we haven’t really wrapped our minds around the cost of meat consumption, that we still culturally view as a necessity.

I don’t think that if we lived more like the WOW that everyone would need to all become vegetarians (though there may be more of us running around). But I do think it would lead to a drastic drop in consumption, better land practices, and likely higher costing meats/animal products that actually represent higher quality and the cost of energy/resources needed to make a pound of animal flesh.

 

With luv,

BD

Edited November 17, 2021 by BlueDreams

[Calm]

40 minutes ago, Analytics said:

f how a deeper understanding of contemporary moral issues can by stymied by revealed religion.

So kind of you to spare your time to enlighten us .

Any chance you think revealed religion might help give us a deeper understanding of contemporary moral issues?

Edited November 17, 2021 by Calm

[Analytics]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

So kind of you to spare your time to enlighten us.

I live but to serve.

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

Any chance you think revealed religion might help give us a deeper understanding of contemporary moral issues?

Sure. My point is simply that if one spends excessive time focusing on the writings of 1832 or 28 or 300 B.C., they are less likely to know what the contemporary issues even are.  

[JLHPROF]

21 hours ago, smac97 said:

I'd like to have a discussion about the two verses in the Word of Wisdom pertaining to meat:

Quote

12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;
13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.

"Sparingly" seems to be very much akin to the "hot drinks" referenced in verse 9.  That is, we are obliged to interpret/construe terms.  The meaning of "hot drinks" is not immediately self-evident to us, but it apparently was to the early Saints:

I'm confused at any need for interpretation of "sparingly".

The Lord defines sparingly in verse 13.  Should not be used except in times of winter, cold, and famine.  I suppose the meaning depends on WHY it's ok during winter, cold, and famine.  I would presume this is a reference to lack of alternative foods - fruits, vegetables, grains, etc.

That being said, I don't think it really matters since we don't follow the scriptural word of wisdom anyway.  We follow whatever the current leadership says.  And they have no restrictions on eating meat that I know of.
Basically, we ignore this section, along with the "hot drinks" and instead stick to current policy.

[Analytics]

26 minutes ago, Calm said:

So kind of you to spare your time to enlighten us .

Any chance you think revealed religion might help give us a deeper understanding of contemporary moral issues?

Thinking more about this, I'd love nothing more than for President Nelson to read Homo Deus: A Brief History of Tomorrow, go to the Lord in prayer about the contemporary moral issues the book exposes, and canonize a new revelation. That would be beyond marvelous.

Unfortunately, it simply won't happen. The Church is about its religious tradition. Not contemporary life.

[BlueDreams]

16 hours ago, champatsch said:

We've been told that plant production is good and meat production is bad. But there is an immense loss of life associated with agriculture, and there is environmental degradation as well. And I remember hearing that the water needed to produce a pound of beef was immense. But the vast majority of that is rainwater.

Plants lack these nutrients:

This is by no means accurate. 

 

The largest percentage of large scale agriculture goes to feeding/growing livestock, not humans. This is the larger driver of environmental degradation...though other industrial ag=gricultural actions are also very destructive (ex. Palm oil trees replacing rainforest diversity, or crop development reliant on aquifers). 

Most of the nutrients can be found in plants or have plant equivalents. We naturally produce carnitine in our bodies. The only ones that are harder to find is B12....but this is still not hard to get. I had more than what I need in my tofu scramble this morning via nutritional yeast.   

 

With luv,

BD

[champatsch]

26 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

The largest percentage of large scale agriculture goes to feeding/growing livestock, not humans.

Some studies have shown that about 85% of livestock feed is not suitable for human consumption.

[Vanguard]

On 11/16/2021 at 11:51 AM, smac97 said:

1. What, in your view, does "sparingly" mean in the context of eating meat?

2. Has the instruction regarding eating meat "only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine" been lessened by, as the above quote from the church manual notes, "{m}odern methods of refrigeration" and other considerations (other preservation methods such as canning/jarring, freeze drying, etc.)?

3. Can/ought we consider reducing or moderating meat consumption so as to mitigate A) the environmental costs of large-scale livestock farming / animal husbandry, and B) the number of animals killed for our consumption?

Thanks,

-Smac

1. No way to nail that one down. There are too many ways to argue it. Sparingly could mean in contrast to what I might typically eat if left to my own devices. In other words, Vanguard would eat at In n' Out daily if left to his own devices. Because he wants to honor the WoW, he visits only once or twice a week. It could also mean what my demographic on the average consumes. In other words, let's say middle class Caucasian males 40-60 yrs of age typically eat at In n' Out ~1-2x/week, so Vanguard will eat there only once every other week in order to honor the WoW.

2. Good question but I have no idea.

3. I think I ought to reduce my meat consumption so as to mitigate what you have listed. I am a card-carrying meat eater. I love my hamburgers. I do not like to eat meat as much as I used to due in part to my sensitivities shifting regarding the environmental costs of farming, the depraved means of mass production, and the sheer number of animals killed for my and others' consumption.

Edited November 17, 2021 by Vanguard

[pogi]

5 hours ago, Mike Drop said:

What’s wrong with the lives of factory animals? Seriously! 

Their bodies grow way too fast for their bones and organs to keep up.  Many starve because leg and joint pain from fractures and bowed bones and spines make it too painful for them to walk to get feed.   Their poor hearts can't keep up and they suffer frequently from ascities and other heart problems, including sudden death syndrome.  

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, pogi said:

Their bodies grow way too fast for their bones and organs to keep up.  Many starve because leg and joint pain from fractures and bowed bones and spines make it too painful for them to walk to get feed.   Their poor hearts can't keep up and they suffer frequently from ascities and other heart problems, including sudden death syndrome.  

When we moved up to Canada, still poor paying off student debt, my mom brought us up five frozen chickens one time because they were so expensive up there and quite a bit smaller.  (she would shop and cook for us while she was there).  I was shocked at how tasteless the American chicken was even though visually it was much more attractive. 

Edited November 17, 2021 by Calm

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, champatsch said:

Corporations can and do enjoy massive margins on plant agriculture. As a consequence, plant agriculture typically gets promoted over animal agriculture; the benefits of the former are overestimated and the benefits of the latter are underestimated. For example, we ignore that the vast majority of food waste is plant-based, probably because humans know by experience that meat is so much more valuable as a food source than plants.

And the land use is nonoverlapping to a significant degree. Animal agriculture can and does use a huge amount of non-arable agricultural land. Another thing to consider is that meat is nutrient dense compared to plants. So we need to eat much less meat than plants to get critical nutrients.

Humans can survive (and thrive) on meat and water alone (as long as the meat isn't too lean – so called rabbit starvation). But humans cannot survive on wheat or corn or soy or rice and water alone.

The US federal government spends just under 40 billion dollars a year subsidizing the meat industry and that does not fully include allowing ranchers the use of federal land to graze on. It is meat that is made much cheaper than it should be. Compare this to the roughly 25 billion spent on farming. If we stopped propping up ranching meat prices would rise and our diets shift.

There is basically no culture that has ever survived entirely on meat. Probably realized it was suboptimal with all the scurvy and constipation. Most hunter/gatherer societies had varied diets. The pure carnivore human is largely a myth.

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, champatsch said:

To the WoW's point about the evil and designs of conspiring men in the last days, we are today suffering in a big way from that, which most of us don't know about. For example, US dietary guidelines still tell us to substitute butter with vegetable oils, when it is actually the other way around. We're told that stable saturated fat is bad for us and that unstable polyunsaturated fat is good for us, when it's the other way around.

Our current paradigm comes from Ancel Keys and others, some of whom had highly questionable motives. Anyone can find historical medical analyses in books and online.

If I were to add one thing to the WoW today, it would be to avoid vegetable seed oils at all costs. These weren't around when the revelation was given. The linoleic acid in these heavily used oils breaks down into many toxic, unstable metabolites, which can shut down mitochondrial function. A very small amount of naturally occurring LA is fine, which was the norm in Joseph Smith's day, but the large amount we consume in our current processed food environment can be deadly and is deadly to many. To quote one research ophthalmologist, these seed oils are genotoxic, mutagenic, carcinogenic, atherogenic, thrombogenic, and obesogenic. Anyone who cuts these out of their diet will notice beneficial effects within weeks, such as a reduction in inflammation and regulating of the satiety mechanism.

More importantly burn down the corn lobby. It is one of the most powerful lobbies in the United States and has fought tough and nail to keep Americans from consuming real sugar.

[Calm]

15 hours ago, The Nehor said:

l. I find the idea that my premortal spirit was eager for a body this flawed to be dubious at best.

Sounds too familiar.

[BlueDreams]

18 hours ago, Stargazer said:

For what it's worth, a long-time acquaintance of mine, who for years was obese despite all attempts to lose weight (I remember visiting him in the hospital after his heart attack), is now 50 pounds lighter. What did he do? He reduced his carbohydrate intake to near zero. Once a week he has some fruit. The rest of the time he eats meat. 

A researcher I have read material from says that this kind of diet isn't magical -- it's just that protein is more quickly satisfying, or filling, and thus causes us to reduce our overall caloric intake.

My wife has had one of those stomach-reduction surgeries, and she finds that if she eats meat first, she quickly runs out of interest in eating anything else.

 

There was a man that caught some attention by losing a ton of weight by eating absolutely nothing but potatoes for a year and it started a bit of a fad. I don't envy either diet. On anything Keto/atkins oriented, There's no long term studies on it and the best effects/research are still those with super special health problems (epilepsy). My big pet peeve is the use of the word "carbs" like all things carby are made equal. My diet is heavily "carbs" but I'm in generally good shape and have never weighed more than 150 lbs (that was when I was pregnant...I generally weight in the 120's nowadays). But my "carbs" are not the same of the average vision of "carbs" it entails very little added sugar....I don't own white sugar at all. Most of it comes from fresh fruits, veggies, and whole grain bread with low sugar and other whole grains. For example my breakfast this morning was a large amount of tofu (carb) cooked with zucchini (carbs) and 3 types of hardy greens (carbs) and with 1 egg and a little cheese and olive oil spiced with nutritional yeast, garlic, and tumeric powder, a homemade whole wheat flour biscuit (carb), 2 apples (carb) cooked in unsweetened almond milk (carb) and oats (carb). But I don't know anyone who would described what I just mentioned as "unhealthy." I'm satisfied for a long time after breakfast because the meal I have is nutrient dense and high in fiber.

Usually when I have people who are not used to this type of food, eat a little of it, they're surprised to find that they're full after a small bowl of food. They're used to full equally laden with grub. I'm used to full being satiated via nutrition and diversity. It feeds my body and my intestinal bacteria over time. 

 

With luv,

BD

[BlueDreams]

2 hours ago, champatsch said:

Some studies have shown that about 85% of livestock feed is not suitable for human consumption.

That depends strongly on how one selective reads stats. A specific stat can still be accurate while really missing the bigger picture. 

 

With luv,

BD

[Stargazer]

53 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

There was a man that caught some attention by losing a ton of weight by eating absolutely nothing but potatoes for a year and it started a bit of a fad.

Oh, yes, that was the magician, Penn Jillette! I read his book in which he described it. "Presto! How I Made Over 100 Pounds Disappear and Other Magical Tales"

Well, I didn't finish it. I got about 57% of it read, according to Kindle. Thanks for reminding me, I may go back and finish the book now.

It doesn't seem like too difficult a thing to do, given that I love potatoes. But maybe it is. My wife tells me that diets like that succeed because you get so fed up 🙂 with what you're eating that you stop eating so much of it.

 

[MustardSeed]

I don’t have a choice but to eat meat sparingly any more. I can barely afford the past date selections.  

[pogi]

6 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I don’t have a choice but to eat meat sparingly any more. I can barely afford the past date selections.  

Amen!

This company just built a huge facility in Utah. It is a cool idea that can save you some money.  I can’t vouch for the quality but I intend to try it out.  

https://www.misfitsmarket.com/