What do you believe is the current narrative for most LGTBQ members of the Church?

[Chum]

2 minutes ago, The Great Pretender said:

I could offer some insight into how the Church's position on LGBT issues is not all it seems from an "outsider's" perspective.

I'm a straight old white guy, live in a rural county, end product of generations of redneck love.

I'm a little light experience so I'll just go with whatever you say.

[The Great Pretender]

42 minutes ago, CV75 said:

As I said, it doesn’t matter what people believe as long as they act in good faith and receive the companionship of the Holy Ghost. Each generation has its own language and context as well, so the messages (both transmitted, received and conveyed) change accordingly. And a prophet saying something like that (but what is the social context?) would still be technically correct in a society that “indoctrinated” people to put lit cigarettes in their mouth. In our case, society is “indoctrinating” people to identify themselves by their sexual orientation, so the finer point has to be made.

There are many ways to reduce negative effects of indoctrination. This is an individual, one-on-one process, whether it is approached spiritually or clinically. The choice of application is up to the sufferer.

Which leads to the idea that ministering on the finer points is best conducted one-on-one, and not in the group venues you’ve been describing. Support, activist and other groups can offer only so much, which is why you’ve seen them fail: the individual becomes invisible, either by choice or by absorption into an identity that doesn’t fully, specifically acknowledge their own. The Church offers what it does as well, which is only so much when the ingredient of one-on-one ministering is absent.

Most members have people in their lives that need one-on-one ministering. Are people who can help suffering LGBTQ+ members spiritually unprepared or unwilling to help them? Probably. Are the LGBTQ+ people with problems likewise negligent in maintaining their spiritual power or willingness to get help? Probably. We have been warned, most recently by our current prophet, not to act this way but to step up, individually. The collective impact of this is miraculous.

I think you can now skip your next Elders Quorum meeting!

You may be right.

What I know in my heart that definitely feels wrong is what isn't happening at the moment. I continue to see families broken and lives destroyed.

It is all too easy to point a critical finger and suggest that someone should have been stronger or more willing to fight their internal conflict, even though it is intolerable to the point where they feel death is the least painful option.

When we have walked in the shoes of those for whom life is a constant state of unhappiness, then we are qualified to judge. 

[sunstoned]

Outside pressure will continue until the church revises it exclusionary policy.  This might have to happen after DHO passes, but it will happen. 

[Tacenda]

12 minutes ago, The Great Pretender said:

You may be right.

What I know in my heart that definitely feels wrong is what isn't happening at the moment. I continue to see families broken and lives destroyed.

It is all too easy to point a critical finger and suggest that someone should have been stronger or more willing to fight their internal conflict, even though it is intolerable to the point where they feel death is the least painful option.

When we have walked in the shoes of those for whom life is a constant state of unhappiness, then we are qualified to judge. 

I probably have sometimers/Alzheimer's but I get confused with your posts. So you are saying gays are sinning if they have a partner because being gay isn't innate?

[rodheadlee]

8 hours ago, Fether said:

Your either missing my point entirely, or ignoring it because your too prideful to admit I make an excellent point.

If someone comes up to me and says “don’t you just hate having periods!?”. They are not saying I am a girl, but their statement implies they think I’m a girl. I can then either go along with it and say “Ya! Bleeding out your vagina is the worst! And the crane stink!”, keep quiet and let her continue to just assume I’m a girl, or I can come out and say “I’m actually a boy, I don’t have those.

I would argue 99% or the world would take that third course of action.

With homosexuals, we are effectively doing this same thing when we ask what temple they want to be married in, if they have a crush on anyone of the opposite gender, if they are a boob or a Butt guy, talk about cute girls with them, or talk about viewing pornography at church. The list goes on. We are constantly making all sorts of assumptions when we talk to others 

You are missing the point. There is no need to announce your sexuality to the world. If it comes out in general conversations with your friends it's no problem. If I am remodeling your home I don't need to know about your sex life.

[The Great Pretender]

13 minutes ago, Chum said:

I'm a straight old white guy, live in a rural county, end product of generations of redneck love.

I'm a little light experience so I'll just go with whatever you say.

I love the gospel of Jesus Christ. I don't love some of the things the Church has done in the past in the name of Jesus Christ--and continues to do in some cases with total impunity. 

The OP's question was simple. And my response is equally simple. The Church is mishandling the LGBT issue. This is evidenced by members who continue to feel there is no place for them in the Church.

I support the Family Proclamation, but I also understand why some struggle to see how they fit into it and how they are hurt by the lack of compassion they experience in relation to that. True compassion extends beyond rhetoric. 

[The Great Pretender]

15 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I probably have sometimers/Alzheimer's but I get confused with your posts. So you are saying gays are sinning if they have a partner because being gay isn't innate?

Apologies. I don't mean to confuse the issues. 

I believe in the Family Proclamation as much as the next guy. The law of chastity applies to all.

Indulge me in a metaphor. Some can have their cake and eat it by marrying. Others must never eat cake.

What I don't accept is that the Church is unwilling to offer meaningful help to those who want to eat cake but are forbidden. They are simply told to be strong and faithful, but they experience emotional and mental trauma on account of being incorrectly wired yet being offered nothing to stem the pain of that. They become perpetual victims. 

[Chum]

4 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

There is no need to announce your sexuality to the world.

Thanks for updating us on their needs. I guess.

4 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

If it comes out in general conversations with your friends it's no problem.

Oh good. Please enjoy gushing rivers of gratitude for this limited permission.

Edited November 27, 2021 by Chum

[Peacefully]

Just now, The Great Pretender said:

Apologies. I don't mean to confuse the issues. 

I believe in the Family Proclamation as much as the next guy. The law of chastity applies to all.

Indulge me in a metaphor. Some can have their cake and eat it by marrying. Others must never eat cake.

What I don't accept is that the Church is unwilling to offer meaningful help to those who want to eat cake but are forbidden. They are simply told to be strong and faithful, but they experience emotional and mental trauma on account of being incorrectly wired yet being offered nothing to stem the pain of that. They become perpetual victims. 

How would you feel if the church came out with a policy where same-sex, monogamous, married couples could have full fellowship, including callings? Would you feel as if you had wasted your life because you went by the “old” teachings and married a woman and never had the chance to be true to yourself? I would be happy if the church changed its exclusionary policies, but I could see how that could hurt you, klindley, Gillebre, and others who have followed the rules and kept your covenants at great personal sacrifice. 

[Chum]

17 minutes ago, The Great Pretender said:

The OP's question was simple. And my response is equally simple. The Church is mishandling the LGBT issue. This is evidenced by members who continue to feel there is no place for them in the Church.

Regarding disharmony between Church teachings and learned experience: It's fine. Reconciliation comes with time and wisdom.

Regarding people who insist disharmony must be resolved now: Shut up. Also stop trying to leverage Church teachings into bludgeoning others into doing what you want.

[The Great Pretender]

2 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

How would you feel if the church came out with a policy where same-sex, monogamous, married couples could have full fellowship, including callings? Would you feel as if you had wasted your life because you went by the “old” teachings and married a woman and never had the chance to be true to yourself? I would be happy if the church changed its exclusionary policies, but I could see how that could hurt you, klindley, Gillebre, and others who have followed the rules and kept your covenants at great personal sacrifice. 

Great question that I've come across before. Sadly, it's 1.05am here, and I must get to bed. I shall think this over. I don't believe the Church will ever change its position on the Family Proclamation though, and nor should it. The real question is how to help in meaningful ways those who fall between the cracks. 

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

Are people who can help suffering LGBTQ+ members spiritually unprepared or unwilling to help them? Probably.

Of course they are unprepared. Who in your average elders quorum IS prepared to do that?

[Gillebre]

1 hour ago, Peacefully said:

How would you feel if the church came out with a policy where same-sex, monogamous, married couples could have full fellowship, including callings? Would you feel as if you had wasted your life because you went by the “old” teachings and married a woman and never had the chance to be true to yourself? I would be happy if the church changed its exclusionary policies, but I could see how that could hurt you, klindley, Gillebre, and others who have followed the rules and kept your covenants at great personal sacrifice. 

I've thought about this as well.

We've been promised by President Nelson that the Restoration continues and with that I've discerned this truth: we each need to emphasize our trust in the Savior, and renew our testimony of the divine calling of His servants who govern the Church on the earth.

Hypothetical 1: What if plural marriage is restored during the establishment of Zion? How many people would turn to unbelief because they refuse to prepare their hearts to trust the Savior and hearken to His servants? 

Hypothetical 2: What if the Prophet, seeking further light and knowledge on behalf of the children of God on the earth, shares revelation concerning those who are LGBT?

Are we prepared to set aside our own wisdom if and when the Prophet does something contrary to our worldview and assumptions?

This is what I focus on when I ponder that question. If I place my trust in Him before anything else then I won't be moved out of my place no matter how surprised I may be. 

I don't consider my choice to marry my fiancée to be a settling or a downgrade from what I could have. My own belief and understanding about my attractions are that they're a distortion of real unmet childhood needs that were twisted by exposure to sexuality and pornography at a very young age.

I trust Him to reveal whatever He sees fit, and I hope that will see me through whatever is to come that I can't fathom.

Edited November 27, 2021 by Gillebre

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, The Great Pretender said:

 

 

Edited November 27, 2021 by mfbukowski

[CV75]

3 hours ago, The Great Pretender said:

You may be right.

What I know in my heart that definitely feels wrong is what isn't happening at the moment. I continue to see families broken and lives destroyed.

It is all too easy to point a critical finger and suggest that someone should have been stronger or more willing to fight their internal conflict, even though it is intolerable to the point where they feel death is the least painful option.

When we have walked in the shoes of those for whom life is a constant state of unhappiness, then we are qualified to judge. 

Hopefully understanding that attraction is not a sin will help you walk in the shoes of those for whom life has improved, and you can minister more effectively to those who yet suffer.

54 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Of course they are unprepared. Who in your average elders quorum IS prepared to do that?

That is my point -- those who have opportunities to minister one-on-one to LGBTQ+ individuals in their life can be prepared when those opportunities arise, based on teh same principles I've shared about the companionship of the Holy Ghost.

Edited November 27, 2021 by CV75

[Peacefully]

39 minutes ago, Gillebre said:

I've thought about this as well.

We've been promised by President Nelson that the Restoration continues and with that I've discerned this truth: we each need to emphasize our trust in the Savior, and renew our testimony of the divine calling of His servants who govern the Church on the earth.

Hypothetical 1: What if plural marriage is restored during the establishment of Zion? How many people would turn to unbelief because they refuse to prepare their hearts to trust the Savior and hearken to His servants? 

Hypothetical 2: What if the Prophet, seeking further light and knowledge on behalf of the children of God on the earth, shares revelation concerning those who are LGBT?

Are we prepared to set aside our own wisdom if and when the Prophet does something contrary to our worldview and assumptions?

This is what I focus on when I ponder that question. If I place my trust in Him before anything else then I won't be moved out of my place no matter how surprised I may be. 

I don't consider my choice to marry my fiancée to be a settling or a downgrade from what I could have. My own belief and understanding about my attractions are that they're a distortion of real unmet childhood needs that were twisted by exposure to sexuality and pornography at a very young age.

I trust Him to reveal whatever He sees fit, and I hope that will see me through whatever is to come that I can't fathom.

Thank you for such a thoughtful answer. I too trust Him to reveal whatever he sees fit, and I do my best to follow. I know my Heavenly Father knows all and He loves us with a perfect love. When we go to him with pure intentions and ask for direction, He will sanctify our efforts to follow Him. I don’t have all the answers about the LGBTQ+ questions, but I want to be an ally to your community and I honor the choices each of you on this board have made. You, CB, Klindley, and Pretender are unique with unique experiences and I appreciate your willingness to share. I am learning. 

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, The Great Pretender said:

Apologies. I don't mean to confuse the issues. 

I believe in the Family Proclamation as much as the next guy. The law of chastity applies to all.

Indulge me in a metaphor. Some can have their cake and eat it by marrying. Others must never eat cake.

What I don't accept is that the Church is unwilling to offer meaningful help to those who want to eat cake but are forbidden. They are simply told to be strong and faithful, but they experience emotional and mental trauma on account of being incorrectly wired yet being offered nothing to stem the pain of that. They become perpetual victims. 

I agree, but yet again, I should have asked in the first place. You do or don't believe homosexuality is a thing, and all are heterosexual no matter what but because of upbringing or ? IOW there is no such thing as a gay person, which is kind of what Elder Bednar said at one time. 

[Chum]

2 hours ago, Gillebre said:

Hypothetical 1: What if plural marriage is restored during the establishment of Zion?

Hypothetical 2: What if the Prophet shares revelation concerning those who are LGBT?

Fifteen years ago I could have answered these right off. I had the conviction of will.

If these happened today, I don't know what I'd think until I thought it thru. My conviction follows reason.

[Fether]

6 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

You are missing the point. There is no need to announce your sexuality to the world. If it comes out in general conversations with your friends it's no problem. If I am remodeling your home I don't need to know about your sex life.

I agree, I really do. I’m just pointing out that our sexuality is more intertwined into our society than we realize. I think there are many gays that take their identity as a homosexual too far and that alone becomes their identity, but many of the people who “come out” do so people don’t have To incorrectly assume their sexuality.

Edited November 27, 2021 by Fether

[kimpearson]

On 11/25/2021 at 9:43 PM, mrmarklin said:

I deal with homosexuals frequently in business, both acknowledged and unacknowledged. Only when is there a marriage announcement or similar do I become “aware “ of the unacknowledged. Most of the rest stay in the closet so to speak and AFAIK are treated by myself and others in a normal manner. I don’t make a deal of this, but some people out there seem to put themselves out there for what I regard as special treatment. No one needs to tell me they are homosexual to be treated with respect. I treat everyone with common courtesy. You don’t need to tell me you’re homosexual to get it. 

I deal every day with 16 year old queer kids who spent the first 15 years of their life being the perfect Mormon kid.  Talks, testimonies, temple attendance, in youth group presidencies, praying, reading the scriptures and being the kid all other parents wanted their kid to be like.  Then suddenly something goes terribly wrong.  The youth withdraws, becomes rebellious or antagonistic, starts cutting themselves and changing their looks drastically.  The parents become frantic with fear because they have no idea what happened to their perfect child.  They as parents have done everything right.  Missions, temple marriage, family prayer, scripture study, church attendance, always expressed and shown love to all their kids and quite often served and given all they had to the Church in important callings.  They are sick and praying desperately for the Holy Ghost's guidance in how to help their child.  There is no answer.  Their church leaders don't have a clue either but also offer prayers and priesthood blessing.  Then one night, one of several things happen.  They stumble across something on the internet their child has posted that indicates they are queer.  Or, in the car with their child something happens and the child bursts out I am gay (transgender or bi, the three most common terms used that often change latter).  Or, they get an email from their child confessing the child is queer and let their parents know they have found another place to live since they are sure their parents won't want them because they can't be part of their eternal family.  The kid has finally started to let the world know who they really are just like all their friends have for years.  There is just one problem, for that queer kid to stay active in the Church, they have to stuff it all back inside and never act upon something that is part of their innermost being.  They have already tried that and it is slowly killing them.  They are out and they aren't going back in.  They usually tell friends first, then family discovers it or is told.  If the family responds with love and acceptance, the child's behavior and mental state starts to improve.  The parents start to breath a sigh of relief but they are members of the Church and they continue to attend and expect their child to attend because the Church has brought so much comfort to the parents.  Now that is in the open they know they will find a place for their child in the Church were their child can become their old selves again.  But something strange happens, the child goes to Church and start to have problems again.  Those problems get worse.  The parents can't understand it.  Finally the child breaks down in tears and tells mom and dad that the Church hates them because every week they hear a lesson or talk about the "covenant path" and only righteous people who go to the temple and are married for eternity can live in the celestial kingdom.  They know they will never marry in the temple.  The thought makes them so sick to the core of their soul that they wonder if continuing to live is worth it.  Mom and dad get scared and tell their child they don't need to attend church.  The child starts to make a new life outside of the Church with new friends and new activities.  The parents are worried because the friends just don't look like normal Mormon kids but they let them be a part of their child's life anyway.  The child's health improves steadily and dramatically over the next several years.  The family finds some measure of peace with the child but now there are so many new questions and issues.   They aren't treated the same in their ward anymore as more and more people find out about their child.  Some church friends of their child remain friends but other withdraw their friendship.  Anybody not in the know questions mom and dad where their prefect child is at.  Why aren't they seeing them at church?  The parents end up coming out over and over for their child.  Their child has a thousand aunts, uncles, cousins and cherished grandparents who all want to know what is going on.  The child comes out slowly over time to each relative or sometimes asks mom and dad to just send out a broadcast.  Some are accepting while some are angry.  The questions constantly come.  Are you sure your gay?  Do you know that many transgender people later wish they had never transitioned (actual this is very rare)?  The Church leadership tells you how much they love your gay child and family.  You ask if lessons can be more inclusive but the leaders regretfully say no.  They have to follow the lesson plans sent out from headquarters.  They hold a fireside on supposedly being more accepting of LGTBQ members but they have to end the fireside with the reminder that being gay in not a sin but acting on it is.  The parents know in their hearts that if their child would have been at the fireside, their soul would have been damaged once again.

I have heard this story over and over hundreds of times.  Some stories are different but all have an element of damage done to a beloved child before they came out as gay.  Mrmarklin, you have not been around these kids.  You do not know any of these kids or you would never wonder why they want to be out and loud.  They refuse to be hurt any further by a culture that has damaged them and they know the best way to fight that damage is to be proud of who they are.  To fully accept themselves as just as whole and perfect as any other child of God.  I really feel for the Great Pretender because he is a perfect example of what happens when a queer person doesn't come out to the whole world about who they are in their innermost core.  What does it really matter what the cause is of queerness?  Has a soul always been that way?  Are genes and chromosomes involved?  Early childhood conditioning?  Queer people are queer and I believe the obligation we all have is to just accept that they are queer and do whatever we believe we can do that will bring such individuals peace, happiness, growth and love.   You will know if you are doing the right thing if you see peace, happiness, growth and love in the queer people you come in contact with.

Edited November 27, 2021 by kimpearson

[Gillebre]

7 hours ago, Chum said:

Fifteen years ago I could have answered these right off. I had the conviction of will.

If these happened today, I don't know what I'd think until I thought it thru. My conviction follows reason.

Fair enough. My point is that we'll all be challenged in some way by what we didn't expect.

As a brief tangent: I'm actually more convinced about the return of plural marriage in Zion because we know that at least some resurrected men will be living it on account of being sealed to multiple women. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob. Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and other individuals from our dispensation. President Nelson. 

Therefore because they'll be living in Zion the policy will of necessity be adjusted lest we excommunicate resurrected beings. Lol.

That doesn't speak to what we may or may not be called upon to do, but I think an argument can be made that plural marriage is part of celestial law and we know that Zion must be built up according to those principles.

Therefore I think it wise to consider our willingness to obey every command of the Lord regardless of cultural baggage and how distorted we view it due to hypersexualization in our society today. If we aren't willing to do anything He asks then it follows that we'll be moved out of our place at some point. For some it was the vaccine. Others masks in the Temple.

We'd be wise to prepare our hearts to receive all His laws no matter what we may expect.

Tangent over. Hah.

[california boy]

15 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

You are missing the point. There is no need to announce your sexuality to the world. If it comes out in general conversations with your friends it's no problem. If I am remodeling your home I don't need to know about your sex life.

I don't think you really understand the corrosive effect of having people assume you are straight when you are gay.  It feels like you are lying to everyone every single day of your life.  It feels like you can never trust anyone's love.  When they say you are a wonderful person, in your mind, you are constantly asking yourself, if you knew I was gay, would you still think I am a wonderful person?  The answer may be yes, but you don't really know.  As a result of that, you can never fully trust someone's love for you.  

Try living an entire life, without ever being able to trust anyone's love.  You may think, well surely those that are closest to you, your family and friends would love you no matter what.  But even those close to may very well abandon you if they knew you were gay.  My family abandoned me for 13 years of my life when I came out.  Those in the Church that I thought I was close to, only two ever reached out and talked to me again.  That answered the question for me.  If they knew I was gay, would they still love me.

Coming out was the BEST thing that I have ever done.  As painful as it was, and as much rejection that I received, I could now begin to live my life in honesty, rather than deceit. If people loved me, they loved me not because who they thought I was, but who I actually am.  It is like this 20 ton burden is lifted from you and your life can begin in authenticity. Sure it is painful and difficult.  But THIS is why you see people even in their 80's finally coming out.  It is why famous people or people in prominent businesses who have everything to loose, including their careers, still need to come out.  Every person who comes out rolls the dice with the strong chance that their lives will become exponentially worse.  But the one thing money or fame can not buy is peach of mind and knowing that you are honest in your life.

No, you don't need to tell every single person you come in contact with that you are gay.  But if the guy remodeling your house starts asking you about your marriage, or if you have a girlfriend, or what you did that weekend and with who, then there is NO reason to retreat back into that closet for a perfect stranger.  I would also add that perhaps the best thing that has gained LGBT acceptance and understanding is when people realized that their nice neighbor or the person you buy pastries with on Saturday morning, or the plumber that fixes your pipes, or the boy who mows your lawn who they though highly of was LGBT.  It is less likely that you will treat a minority group poorly when you actually know someone from that minority group.

[california boy]

10 hours ago, kimpearson said:

I deal every day with 16 year old queer kids who spent the first 15 years of their life being the perfect Mormon kid.  Talks, testimonies, temple attendance, in youth group presidencies, praying, reading the scriptures and being the kid all other parents wanted their kid to be like.  Then suddenly something goes terribly wrong.  The youth withdraws, becomes rebellious or antagonistic, starts cutting themselves and changing their looks drastically.  The parents become frantic with fear because they have no idea what happened to their perfect child.  They as parents have done everything right.  Missions, temple marriage, family prayer, scripture study, church attendance, always expressed and shown love to all their kids and quite often served and given all they had to the Church in important callings.  They are sick and praying desperately for the Holy Ghost's guidance in how to help their child.  There is no answer.  Their church leaders don't have a clue either but also offer prayers and priesthood blessing.  Then one night, one of several things happen.  They stumble across something on the internet their child has posted that indicates they are queer.  Or, in the car with their child something happens and the child bursts out I am gay (transgender or bi, the three most common terms used that often change latter).  Or, they get an email from their child confessing the child is queer and let their parents know they have found another place to live since they are sure their parents won't want them because they can't be part of their eternal family.  The kid has finally started to let the world know who they really are just like all their friends have for years.  There is just one problem, for that queer kid to stay active in the Church, they have to stuff it all back inside and never act upon something that is part of their innermost being.  They have already tried that and it is slowly killing them.  They are out and they aren't going back in.  They usually tell friends first, then family discovers it or is told.  If the family responds with love and acceptance, the child's behavior and mental state starts to improve.  The parents start to breath a sigh of relief but they are members of the Church and they continue to attend and expect their child to attend because the Church has brought so much comfort to the parents.  Now that is in the open they know they will find a place for their child in the Church were their child can become their old selves again.  But something strange happens, the child goes to Church and start to have problems again.  Those problems get worse.  The parents can't understand it.  Finally the child breaks down in tears and tells mom and dad that the Church hates them because every week they hear a lesson or talk about the "covenant path" and only righteous people who go to the temple and are married for eternity can live in the celestial kingdom.  They know they will never marry in the temple.  The thought makes them so sick to the core of their soul that they wonder if continuing to live is worth it.  Mom and dad get scared and tell their child they don't need to attend church.  The child starts to make a new life outside of the Church with new friends and new activities.  The parents are worried because the friends just don't look like normal Mormon kids but they let them be a part of their child's life anyway.  The child's health improves steadily and dramatically over the next several years.  The family finds some measure of peace with the child but now there are so many new questions and issues.   They aren't treated the same in their ward anymore as more and more people find out about their child.  Some church friends of their child remain friends but other withdraw their friendship.  Anybody not in the know questions mom and dad where their prefect child is at.  Why aren't they seeing them at church?  The parents end up coming out over and over for their child.  Their child has a thousand aunts, uncles, cousins and cherished grandparents who all want to know what is going on.  The child comes out slowly over time to each relative or sometimes asks mom and dad to just send out a broadcast.  Some are accepting while some are angry.  The questions constantly come.  Are you sure your gay?  Do you know that many transgender people later wish they had never transitioned (actual this is very rare)?  The Church leadership tells you how much they love your gay child and family.  You ask if lessons can be more inclusive but the leaders regretfully say no.  They have to follow the lesson plans sent out from headquarters.  They hold a fireside on supposedly being more accepting of LGTBQ members but they have to end the fireside with the reminder that being gay in not a sin but acting on it is.  The parents know in their hearts that if their child would have been at the fireside, their soul would have been damaged once again.

I have heard this story over and over hundreds of times.  Some stories are different but all have an element of damage done to a beloved child before they came out as gay.  Mrmarklin, you have not been around these kids.  You do not know any of these kids or you would never wonder why they want to be out and loud.  They refuse to be hurt any further by a culture that has damaged them and they know the best way to fight that damage is to be proud of who they are.  To fully accept themselves as just as whole and perfect as any other child of God.  I really feel for the Great Pretender because he is a perfect example of what happens when a queer person doesn't come out to the whole world about who they are in their innermost core.  What does it really matter what the cause is of queerness?  Has a soul always been that way?  Are genes and chromosomes involved?  Early childhood conditioning?  Queer people are queer and I believe the obligation we all have is to just accept that they are queer and do whatever we believe we can do that will bring such individuals peace, happiness, growth and love.   You will know if you are doing the right thing if you see peace, happiness, growth and love in the queer people you come in contact with.

This post should receive 1000 rep points.  THIS is exactly what is going on.  I was that kid.  I was that Decons president, Teachers president, Assistant to the bishop,  The whole reason why I decided to serve a mission was because I honestly thought that when I faced God on that day of judgement, and He weighed my worth, I could say, well at least I gave you two years of my life.  What I didn't have back then is any sign that I could be honest and live an authentic life and not die.  Now kids see that you can still find happiness and be LGBT.  IT GETS BETTER campaign is the one that gives those who see a glimmer of hope that they can still live a life of love and happiness. And once they find that happiness, they realize that being LGBT is not the curse that everyone for their whole life told them it was.

The work you are doing is the work of God.

[CV75]

12 hours ago, kimpearson said:

I deal every day with 16 year old queer kids who spent the first 15 years of their life being the perfect Mormon kid.  Talks, testimonies, temple attendance, in youth group presidencies, praying, reading the scriptures and being the kid all other parents wanted their kid to be like.  Then suddenly something goes terribly wrong.  The youth withdraws, becomes rebellious or antagonistic, starts cutting themselves and changing their looks drastically.  The parents become frantic with fear because they have no idea what happened to their perfect child.  They as parents have done everything right.  Missions, temple marriage, family prayer, scripture study, church attendance, always expressed and shown love to all their kids and quite often served and given all they had to the Church in important callings.  They are sick and praying desperately for the Holy Ghost's guidance in how to help their child.  There is no answer.  Their church leaders don't have a clue either but also offer prayers and priesthood blessing.  Then one night, one of several things happen.  They stumble across something on the internet their child has posted that indicates they are queer.  Or, in the car with their child something happens and the child bursts out I am gay (transgender or bi, the three most common terms used that often change latter).  Or, they get an email from their child confessing the child is queer and let their parents know they have found another place to live since they are sure their parents won't want them because they can't be part of their eternal family.  The kid has finally started to let the world know who they really are just like all their friends have for years.  There is just one problem, for that queer kid to stay active in the Church, they have to stuff it all back inside and never act upon something that is part of their innermost being.  They have already tried that and it is slowly killing them.  They are out and they aren't going back in.  They usually tell friends first, then family discovers it or is told.  If the family responds with love and acceptance, the child's behavior and mental state starts to improve.  The parents start to breath a sigh of relief but they are members of the Church and they continue to attend and expect their child to attend because the Church has brought so much comfort to the parents.  Now that is in the open they know they will find a place for their child in the Church were their child can become their old selves again.  But something strange happens, the child goes to Church and start to have problems again.  Those problems get worse.  The parents can't understand it.  Finally the child breaks down in tears and tells mom and dad that the Church hates them because every week they hear a lesson or talk about the "covenant path" and only righteous people who go to the temple and are married for eternity can live in the celestial kingdom.  They know they will never marry in the temple.  The thought makes them so sick to the core of their soul that they wonder if continuing to live is worth it.  Mom and dad get scared and tell their child they don't need to attend church.  The child starts to make a new life outside of the Church with new friends and new activities.  The parents are worried because the friends just don't look like normal Mormon kids but they let them be a part of their child's life anyway.  The child's health improves steadily and dramatically over the next several years.  The family finds some measure of peace with the child but now there are so many new questions and issues.   They aren't treated the same in their ward anymore as more and more people find out about their child.  Some church friends of their child remain friends but other withdraw their friendship.  Anybody not in the know questions mom and dad where their prefect child is at.  Why aren't they seeing them at church?  The parents end up coming out over and over for their child.  Their child has a thousand aunts, uncles, cousins and cherished grandparents who all want to know what is going on.  The child comes out slowly over time to each relative or sometimes asks mom and dad to just send out a broadcast.  Some are accepting while some are angry.  The questions constantly come.  Are you sure your gay?  Do you know that many transgender people later wish they had never transitioned (actual this is very rare)?  The Church leadership tells you how much they love your gay child and family.  You ask if lessons can be more inclusive but the leaders regretfully say no.  They have to follow the lesson plans sent out from headquarters.  They hold a fireside on supposedly being more accepting of LGTBQ members but they have to end the fireside with the reminder that being gay in not a sin but acting on it is.  The parents know in their hearts that if their child would have been at the fireside, their soul would have been damaged once again.

I have heard this story over and over hundreds of times.  Some stories are different but all have an element of damage done to a beloved child before they came out as gay.  Mrmarklin, you have not been around these kids.  You do not know any of these kids or you would never wonder why they want to be out and loud.  They refuse to be hurt any further by a culture that has damaged them and they know the best way to fight that damage is to be proud of who they are.  To fully accept themselves as just as whole and perfect as any other child of God.  I really feel for the Great Pretender because he is a perfect example of what happens when a queer person doesn't come out to the whole world about who they are in their innermost core.  What does it really matter what the cause is of queerness?  Has a soul always been that way?  Are genes and chromosomes involved?  Early childhood conditioning?  Queer people are queer and I believe the obligation we all have is to just accept that they are queer and do whatever we believe we can do that will bring such individuals peace, happiness, growth and love.   You will know if you are doing the right thing if you see peace, happiness, growth and love in the queer people you come in contact with.

I'm not sure if this is being said as you cite it, or if it is just heard and misinterpreted this way (and I am sure it is often a bit of both): "being gay in not a sin but acting on it is" is an incorrect notion. The more accurate understanding is, "our attributes, attractions, appetites and passions are not sins, but willfully acting on them against contrary to the covenants is." Precise distinctions have to be made according to the societal pressures of the day.

The Balm of Gilead must certainly be brought to those suffering as a consequence of applying incorrect beliefs to real pressures. There are successes; I am a witness to that among queer people I know and have helped. I also know that people do find what they consider, or come to consider, to be  "peace, happiness, growth and love" in different places, and that is why people leave the Church.

[mrmarklin]

On 11/25/2021 at 5:16 PM, kimpearson said:

 

Edited November 27, 2021 by mrmarklin
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