What do you believe is the current narrative for most LGTBQ members of the Church?

[kimpearson]

I participate and follow this board because the majority of participants are traditional believing members who hold the beliefs that the majority of active members hold.  You are not afraid to speak up and share your thoughts.

Here is my question for you.  What is the narrative you believe is the actual narrative of most LGTBQ members of the Church?  Do you believe large numbers of LGTBQ members are active and happy in Church?  Do you believe that the stories shared in Church publications represent the common experiences of LGTBQ members?  Please offer up the reasons and data that supports your belief as to the common LGTBQ narrative.

Following is my lived experience on the narrative of the overwhelming majority of LGTBQ members.

I feel the current effort by the Church relating to LGTBQ+ stories is only to share the positive stories and completely ignore the bigger picture.  I hear so many members latching onto these stories as somehow offering hope and a path for LGTBQ members of the Church.  I hear many saying these stories give them hope personally.  I fear this will turn into an incredibly damaging hurtful trend for the vast majority of our LGTBQ children.  With hundreds of thousands of LGTBQ members (16 million times 5%), you can undoubtedly find 100 that are having a positive experience in the Church along with their personal relationship with God.

When my son came out in 2013 I started a relentless search for a path for him within the Church.  I attended conferences, read blogs, watched podcasts and most importantly listened to literally 3 or 4 thousand personal stories in the last eight years.  I am a member of Church affirming Facebook groups, questioning Facebook groups and Church opposing groups.  I can’t claim that my experience reflects the true picture 100% but I am highly confident it is the true picture.  I personally have only heard less than 20 stories of queer members who are active, happy and at peace with the Church, their lives and God.  I have heard the stories of maybe 50 who are sincerely trying to make the Church work for a queer single person but find many struggles and much pain in trying to do so.  I have heard the story of maybe 20 mixed orientation marriages that have endured for more than 20 years where the couple is active,  happy and at peace with the Church and God.

What about the other 99.9%?  I have listened to a thousand stories of queer members who spent years trying to make Church and God work for them.  They each came to a point where to go on who have likely led to a mental breakdown or suicide.  They struggle with believing in a loving God.  I have listened to hundreds of queer members who tried to make mixed orientation marriages work.  Almost all ended in very ugly ways with hurt children and spouses.  By far the largest queer story is those that left the Church and often God as soon as they fully admitted to themselves they were queer.  Often that process involved mental illness and suicidal ideation.  In my experience these are the true story of queer members of the Church in such overwhelming numbers that any other story has little or no value to the whole group of queer members.  I honor the lucky few who have good stories and I am happy for them but their stories should be shared very carefully because for the vast majority of queer members, these stories are destructive and hurtful.  These positive stories appear to me to only benefit non-queer members who want to feel good about themselves and the Church.  These stories support a false belief that there is a place for queer members in the Church.  The only place for queer members in the Church is to live a pretend life of a heterosexual, cisgender person accepting you will be changed in the next life. This belief is destroying lives.  

I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
 

[Duncan]

It was Elder Tad R. Callister said that the Church ruins it for others (churches that is) so if you fall out with the church then that's it, no church and your are apathetic towards God or atheist. That's what i've seen, not just for LGBTQ. I don't know too many people who have left our church and joined another one. I think too people want fairness for everyone, why me and not them? so if they perceive unfairness towards the LGBTQ then why bother with the church? God is no respecter towards people but the Church seems to be and it doesn't make any sense. 

Some people want gay or anyone they seem as inferior to themselves out of the church. It boosts their own ego if others fall and they haven't. I had a YSA Bishop years say that God is working towards getting people out of the church, "thinning the herd" I don't believe that, it seems weird he wants people in the church and he wants people out of the church? I recall a scripture about a house divided against itself and all that.

https://www.thechurchnews.com/living-faith/2019-12-15/elder-tad-r-callister-members-church-latter-day-saints-169646

Edited November 11, 2021 by Duncan

[Canadiandude]

I too would be curious to here the responses to this post.

[strappinglad]

Where did the idea that life needs to be fair come from ? God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance . Is that fair? If I steal a dollar or a million dollars ,the sin must be repented of or I am damned.  Is that fair? If I am born with an affliction that repels and therefore never get married or be loved , is that fair ? Why am I living in a place of peace and prosperity while millions live in turmoil and poverty? Is that fair ? My child was struck with MS. She was a very talented pianist. Why will God not heal her when he heals others? NOT FAIR I SAY !!

Perhaps we should just curse God and die because life is not fair. 

It has been said that if the trials of a group of people were placed in the middle of the room and we got to pick a different trial if we wanted, most would end up picking their original problems back up. Possibly, but  for folks with the illnesses shown below, I'm not trading:

Top 10 Gruesome Disfiguring Diseases - Listverse

[strappinglad]

As for the OP, I think life as a LBGTQ person is and always will be difficult in the church. They must remain single and celibate . Personally I think it is a mistake to enter into a " mixed orientation " marriage unless both parties are fully aware of the situation and seek professional help , and even then... 

The Transition world is a whole other can of salamanders. 

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, kimpearson said:

I participate and follow this board because the majority of participants are traditional believing members who hold the beliefs that the majority of active members hold.  You are not afraid to speak up and share your thoughts.

This is far from true.  Even those who are generally faithful, believing members of the LDS Church, have a variety of unorthodox views -- as one would expect from a blog of this sort.  However, we have many marginal believers, and non-believers here, in addition to visitors from other religions.  All are very welcome, but there is nothing like a majority of believing members.  An ordinary LDS member would probably find this board disturbing or threatening in some way.

3 hours ago, kimpearson said:

Here is my question for you.  What is the narrative you believe is the actual narrative of most LGTBQ members of the Church?  Do you believe large numbers of LGTBQ members are active and happy in Church?  Do you believe that the stories shared in Church publications represent the common experiences of LGTBQ members?  Please offer up the reasons and data that supports your belief as to the common LGTBQ narrative.

The actual narrative is likely a recognition that the LDS Church will always consider active practice of any LGBTQ preference a sin, and has celibacy as the only option.  That is very difficult for many if not most LGBTQ members to accept and likely leads many of them to leave active membership.  Many others simply live quietly with that fact -- a pattern of celibacy even being practiced by a very large percentage of heterosexuals within the Church.

3 hours ago, kimpearson said:

Following is my lived experience on the narrative of the overwhelming majority of LGTBQ members.

I feel the current effort by the Church relating to LGTBQ+ stories is only to share the positive stories and completely ignore the bigger picture.  I hear so many members latching onto these stories as somehow offering hope and a path for LGTBQ members of the Church.  I hear many saying these stories give them hope personally.  I fear this will turn into an incredibly damaging hurtful trend for the vast majority of our LGTBQ children.  With hundreds of thousands of LGTBQ members (16 million times 5%), you can undoubtedly find 100 that are having a positive experience in the Church along with their personal relationship with God.

When my son came out in 2013 I started a relentless search for a path for him within the Church.  I attended conferences, read blogs, watched podcasts and most importantly listened to literally 3 or 4 thousand personal stories in the last eight years.  I am a member of Church affirming Facebook groups, questioning Facebook groups and Church opposing groups.  I can’t claim that my experience reflects the true picture 100% but I am highly confident it is the true picture.  I personally have only heard less than 20 stories of queer members who are active, happy and at peace with the Church, their lives and God.  I have heard the stories of maybe 50 who are sincerely trying to make the Church work for a queer single person but find many struggles and much pain in trying to do so.  I have heard the story of maybe 20 mixed orientation marriages that have endured for more than 20 years where the couple is active,  happy and at peace with the Church and God.

What about the other 99.9%?  I have listened to a thousand stories of queer members who spent years trying to make Church and God work for them.  They each came to a point where to go on who have likely led to a mental breakdown or suicide.  They struggle with believing in a loving God.  I have listened to hundreds of queer members who tried to make mixed orientation marriages work.  Almost all ended in very ugly ways with hurt children and spouses.  By far the largest queer story is those that left the Church and often God as soon as they fully admitted to themselves they were queer.  Often that process involved mental illness and suicidal ideation.  In my experience these are the true story of queer members of the Church in such overwhelming numbers that any other story has little or no value to the whole group of queer members.  I honor the lucky few who have good stories and I am happy for them but their stories should be shared very carefully because for the vast majority of queer members, these stories are destructive and hurtful.  These positive stories appear to me to only benefit non-queer members who want to feel good about themselves and the Church.  These stories support a false belief that there is a place for queer members in the Church.  The only place for queer members in the Church is to live a pretend life of a heterosexual, cisgender person accepting you will be changed in the next life. This belief is destroying lives.  ........................

The idea that one must be a member of the LDS Church is silly, even though some LGBTQ members may have been raised in that Church and have a strong attachment to it and their friends in it.  Most people on this planet are not and never will be members of the LDS Church.  Such membership is not existential.  In most Western nations, LGBTQ practices (including ss marriage) are legal and not persecuted.  One may freely associate with like-minded friends and acquaintances.  Making the various churches which prohibit such conduct out to be boogeymen is probably counterproductive, but people are going to blame someone for the problems they perceive -- and perception is everything.

[Fether]

5 hours ago, kimpearson said:

I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

I have a gay brother and a trans sister. This has lead me down quite a few rabbit holes.

Honestly, it seems to me that the church is still trying to find a good way to approach it all. In Elder Holland’s recent infamous BYU talk, he mentioned that the brethren are working tirelessly to give what they can to those in the LGBTQ community, all the while staying within the doctrine God has declared. The things the church is doing now is not in attempt to blindly declare all is well, but rather they are doing their best to support those in need and provide hope to those that wish to stay active. It’s just difficult because our sexuality is a fairly large part of who we are and it is a part of our conscience and sub conscience daily communication. We can’t simply ignore it.

Its nice to see the church no longer blankety teaching homosexuals should get heterosexually married married or suggest to have faith and it will go away. They are admitting it is hard more and more and the leaders seem to be getting more and more sympathetic.

[Mike Drop]

8 hours ago, kimpearson said:

I participate and follow this board because the majority of participants are traditional believing members who hold the beliefs that the majority of active members hold.  You are not afraid to speak up and share your thoughts.

Here is my question for you.  What is the narrative you believe is the actual narrative of most LGTBQ members of the Church?  Do you believe large numbers of LGTBQ members are active and happy in Church?  Do you believe that the stories shared in Church publications represent the common experiences of LGTBQ members?  Please offer up the reasons and data that supports your belief as to the common LGTBQ narrative.

Following is my lived experience on the narrative of the overwhelming majority of LGTBQ members.

I feel the current effort by the Church relating to LGTBQ+ stories is only to share the positive stories and completely ignore the bigger picture.  I hear so many members latching onto these stories as somehow offering hope and a path for LGTBQ members of the Church.  I hear many saying these stories give them hope personally.  I fear this will turn into an incredibly damaging hurtful trend for the vast majority of our LGTBQ children.  With hundreds of thousands of LGTBQ members (16 million times 5%), you can undoubtedly find 100 that are having a positive experience in the Church along with their personal relationship with God.

When my son came out in 2013 I started a relentless search for a path for him within the Church.  I attended conferences, read blogs, watched podcasts and most importantly listened to literally 3 or 4 thousand personal stories in the last eight years.  I am a member of Church affirming Facebook groups, questioning Facebook groups and Church opposing groups.  I can’t claim that my experience reflects the true picture 100% but I am highly confident it is the true picture.  I personally have only heard less than 20 stories of queer members who are active, happy and at peace with the Church, their lives and God.  I have heard the stories of maybe 50 who are sincerely trying to make the Church work for a queer single person but find many struggles and much pain in trying to do so.  I have heard the story of maybe 20 mixed orientation marriages that have endured for more than 20 years where the couple is active,  happy and at peace with the Church and God.

What about the other 99.9%?  I have listened to a thousand stories of queer members who spent years trying to make Church and God work for them.  They each came to a point where to go on who have likely led to a mental breakdown or suicide.  They struggle with believing in a loving God.  I have listened to hundreds of queer members who tried to make mixed orientation marriages work.  Almost all ended in very ugly ways with hurt children and spouses.  By far the largest queer story is those that left the Church and often God as soon as they fully admitted to themselves they were queer.  Often that process involved mental illness and suicidal ideation.  In my experience these are the true story of queer members of the Church in such overwhelming numbers that any other story has little or no value to the whole group of queer members.  I honor the lucky few who have good stories and I am happy for them but their stories should be shared very carefully because for the vast majority of queer members, these stories are destructive and hurtful.  These positive stories appear to me to only benefit non-queer members who want to feel good about themselves and the Church.  These stories support a false belief that there is a place for queer members in the Church.  The only place for queer members in the Church is to live a pretend life of a heterosexual, cisgender person accepting you will be changed in the next life. This belief is destroying lives.  

I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
 

What’s a common LGTBQ narrative? What does that even mean? Are you under the impression homosexuality is a sin? And if so, does that mean other “sinners” have a narrative? Is there an alcoholic narrative? An embezzler narrative? An adulterer narrative? A liar’s narrative? A smokers narrative? 
 

     In all my studies about LGBTQ members of the church, one of the worst situations a gay member can put themselves in is relying solely on what the brethren say about LGBT issues, and on the flip side listening to podcast like Mormon Stories can be a big circle jerk. Mormon Stories can be depressing as hell! 

  I’ve taught my gay daughter not to be a victim. In both examples above, the brethren and Mormon Stories rely on “victimhood” to “help” LGBT members try to get over what ever mental road blocks they are facing. Ultimately, it comes down to realizing there’s no man or woman on earth any of us need to bow down to. Not one! LEARNING, PRACTICING and IMPLEMENTING positive daily routines is the best way to combat negativity no matter if it comes from a religion, family or some dude begging for money on a podcast.
 

     

    

[smac97]

On 11/10/2021 at 9:03 PM, kimpearson said:

What is the narrative you believe is the actual narrative of most LGTBQ members of the Church?  

I am not sure I understand your question.  Do you refer here to some sort of "internal" narrative that "LGTBQ members" tell themselves?  Or are you asking about the "cultural" narrative arising from the cultural milieu in which LGBTQ members find themselves?  Or is it the doctrinal narrative espoused by the Church?

On 11/10/2021 at 9:03 PM, kimpearson said:

Do you believe large numbers of LGTBQ members are active and happy in Church?  

"Active and happy" can be a transitory thing.  I think observing the Law of Chastity in this increasingly sexualized world can be a real challenge.  We could ask the same question of unmarried (never-marrieds, divorced, widowed). 

I have a good friend who has never married.  He has a testimony, but I am not sure "active and happy" suits him.  He struggles being a middle-aged never-married in the Church. 

I have another friend, a divorced father of five, who has at times struggled not having a companion (and his children are now grown), but he is presently "happy and active." 

I have yet another friend, a never-married gay man, who is "happy and active." 

I have another friend, a woman, who has recently left the Church for a variety of reasons (some pertaining to LGBTQ issues).  She previously had a strong testimony, but now says she does not believe.  She does not seem particularly happy at present.

And yet another friend who was previously an ardent and happy believer, but he has now left the Church and hates it a lot.  He has also taken his family (wife and kids) with him.  He comes across as happy, which is a little jarring since his smiles are interspersed with a lot of venom about the Church and its teachings and leaders.

I think happiness in the Church most often arises when the individual is reconciled with the doctrines pertaining to Jesus Christ and the necessary connection between loving God and keeping His commandments.  There is a measure of strength, resilience and endurance that arises from a faith-based desire to keep one's covenants, and that measure is usually sufficient to see the individual through difficult times.  I think this is why there are so many scriptural passages about remembrance, about returning, about enduring to the end, and so on.  

I surmise that this measure is lessened where the covenant-keeping is more a matter of cultural/familial expecations, and/or where such expectations and other factors (sociocultural pressures to fit in, to adopt alternative perspectives on things like the Law of Chastity, etc.) overshadow faith-based convictions regarding the Restored Gospel.  

On 11/10/2021 at 9:03 PM, kimpearson said:

Do you believe that the stories shared in Church publications represent the common experiences of LGTBQ members?  

Of some of these members, sure.  Of others, not so much.

On 11/10/2021 at 9:03 PM, kimpearson said:

Please offer up the reasons and data that supports your belief as to the common LGTBQ narrative.

Still not sure what "narrative" you are referencing here.  Also, what sort of "data" would you think we would have (beyond anecdotal, anyway)?

On 11/10/2021 at 9:03 PM, kimpearson said:

Following is my lived experience on the narrative of the overwhelming majority of LGTBQ members.

I feel the current effort by the Church relating to LGTBQ+ stories is only to share the positive stories and completely ignore the bigger picture.  

That depends, I suppose, on what "the bigger picture" actually is.  

I submit that the Church is presenting stories that are congruent with the sentiment expressed in March 8:

Quote

34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it.
36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

And Matthew 7:

Quote

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

And D&C 121:

Quote

7 My son, peace be unto thy soul; thine adversity and thine afflictions shall be but a small moment;
8 And then, if thou endure it well, God shall exalt thee on high; thou shalt triumph over all thy foes.

And John 15:

Quote

10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.

And D&C 6:

Quote

32 Verily, verily, I say unto you, as I said unto my disciples, where two or three are gathered together in my name, as touching one thing, behold, there will I be in the midst of them—even so am I in the midst of you.
33 Fear not to do good, my sons, for whatsoever ye sow, that shall ye also reap; therefore, if ye sow good ye shall also reap good for your reward.
34 Therefore, fear not, little flock; do good; let earth and hell combine against you, for if ye are built upon my rock, they cannot prevail.

And 1 Corinthians 2:

Quote

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

And 2 Timothy 4:

Quote

5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

And 2 Nephi 31:

Quote

19 And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.
20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

And so on.

The Church is playing the long game, I think.  I think it is intently focused on "the bigger picture."  But again, that depends on what "the bigger picture" means to the individual.

On 11/10/2021 at 9:03 PM, kimpearson said:

I hear so many members latching onto these stories as somehow offering hope and a path for LGTBQ members of the Church.  I hear many saying these stories give them hope personally.  I fear this will turn into an incredibly damaging hurtful trend for the vast majority of our LGTBQ children.  With hundreds of thousands of LGTBQ members (16 million times 5%), you can undoubtedly find 100 that are having a positive experience in the Church along with their personal relationship with God.

More than half of the adults in the Church are unmarried.  Many are never married.  Many are divorced or widowed.  No small number of those who are married have significant struggles in their marital relationships.

Many of the parents in the Church are worried about their children.

Many members of the Church struggle with physicial or emotional health issues.  And/or financial issues.  Many live in difficult sociopolitical circumstances.

And yet the Church teaches the same things to everyone, poor and rich, healthy and sick, you name it.  I think that is because, as Joseph Smith put it:

Quote

“Happiness is the object and design of our existence; and will be the end thereof, if we pursue the path that leads to it; and this path is virtue, uprightness, faithfulness, holiness, and keeping all the commandments of God” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith [1976], 255–56).

I think those that declare that Joseph got it wrong, that happiness is to be found in not "keeping all the commandments of God," are steering themselves up a blind alley.  I think they are the ones who ignore, or have lost sight of, "the bigger picture."

On 11/10/2021 at 9:03 PM, kimpearson said:

When my son came out in 2013 I started a relentless search for a path for him within the Church.  I attended conferences, read blogs, watched podcasts and most importantly listened to literally 3 or 4 thousand personal stories in the last eight years.  I am a member of Church affirming Facebook groups, questioning Facebook groups and Church opposing groups.  I can’t claim that my experience reflects the true picture 100% but I am highly confident it is the true picture.  I personally have only heard less than 20 stories of queer members who are active, happy and at peace with the Church, their lives and God.  

That's a pretty high bar.  

On 11/10/2021 at 9:03 PM, kimpearson said:

I have heard the stories of maybe 50 who are sincerely trying to make the Church work for a queer single person but find many struggles and much pain in trying to do so.  

This seems a bit more realistic.  Many, many members of the Church have "many struggles and much pain" in their travels.  

My parents served a mission in Zimbabwe and returned with all sorts of stories about the extreme poverty, runaway inflation, rampant governmental ineptitude and corruption, substance abuse, little to no economic opportunity, and so on.  And yet there are members there who find much hope and happiness in the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ.  Not because the Gospel eliminates all such trials (although it can do quite a bit in reducing some of them), but because the Gospel gives them the means, and the hope, to carry on and endure.

I am reminded here of some salient observations by Admiral James Stockdale:

Quote

What is the Stockdale Paradox?

Stockdale was a prisoner of war in Vietnam for seven-and-a-half years. Before meeting with the legendary soldier and statesman, Collins read Stockdale’s memoir and found its grim details hard to bear, despite his knowledge that Stockdale’s later life was happy. Collins wondered, “If it feels depressing for me, how on earth did he survive when he was actually there and did not know the end of the story?” (Emphasis in the original.)

When he posed that question to the admiral, Stockdale answered: “I never lost faith in the end of the story. I never doubted not only that I would get out, but also that I would prevail in the end and turn the experience into the defining event of my life, which, in retrospect, I would not trade.”

Collins asked him about the personal characteristics of prisoners who did not make it out of the camps. “The optimists,” he replied. “Oh, they were the ones who said, ‘We’re going to be out by Christmas.’ And Christmas would come, and Christmas would go. Then they’d say, ‘We’re going to be out by Easter.’ And Easter would come, and Easter would go. And then Thanksgiving, and then it would be Christmas again. And they died of a broken heart … This is a very important lesson. You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end—which you can never afford to lose—with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be."

This formulation became known as the Stockdale Paradox. The admiral elaborated further on the concept when, at a West Point graduation, he was asked if he dwelt on the end of his imprisonment to sustain him, or if he lived day to day?

“I lived on a day-to-day basis. … [M]ost guys thought it was really better for everybody to be an optimist. I wasn't naturally that way; I knew too much about the politics of Asia when I got shot down. I think there was a lot of damage done by optimists; other writers from other wars share that opinion. The problem is, some people believe what professional optimists are passing out and come unglued when their predictions don't work out.”

For me, I find Stockdale's pragmatism very encouraging when I think of continuing in my covenants: "You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end—which you can never afford to lose—with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be."

I hope I never lose track of my "faith in the end of the story."  That is where the "bigger picture" is for me.

On 11/10/2021 at 9:03 PM, kimpearson said:

I have heard the story of maybe 20 mixed orientation marriages that have endured for more than 20 years where the couple is active,  happy and at peace with the Church and God.

MOMs are certainly a risky proposition.  But these days, so is straight-up heterosexual marriage.  And yet I reject the idea that we ought to impugn the sanctity and God-ordained status of marriage between a man and a woman by pointing to individual instances of less-than-fully-successful unions.

On 11/10/2021 at 9:03 PM, kimpearson said:

What about the other 99.9%?  

That's the statistic?

On 11/10/2021 at 9:03 PM, kimpearson said:

I have listened to a thousand stories of queer members who spent years trying to make Church and God work for them.  They each came to a point where to go on who have likely led to a mental breakdown or suicide.  They struggle with believing in a loving God.  I have listened to hundreds of queer members who tried to make mixed orientation marriages work.  Almost all ended in very ugly ways with hurt children and spouses.  By far the largest queer story is those that left the Church and often God as soon as they fully admitted to themselves they were queer.  Often that process involved mental illness and suicidal ideation.  In my experience these are the true story of queer members of the Church in such overwhelming numbers that any other story has little or no value to the whole group of queer members.  

"In my experience" would seem to be the operative phrase.  "Little or no value" is also illuminating.

On 11/10/2021 at 9:03 PM, kimpearson said:

I honor the lucky few who have good stories and I am happy for them but their stories should be shared very carefully because for the vast majority of queer members, these stories are destructive and hurtful.  

How so?

On 11/10/2021 at 9:03 PM, kimpearson said:

These positive stories appear to me to only benefit non-queer members who want to feel good about themselves and the Church.  

I don't understand what you are saying here.

On 11/10/2021 at 9:03 PM, kimpearson said:

These stories support a false belief that there is a place for queer members in the Church.  

Unless, of course, there is "a place for queer members in the Church," in which case these stories are important and merit emphasis and repetition, rather than censorship.

On 11/10/2021 at 9:03 PM, kimpearson said:

The only place for queer members in the Church is to live a pretend life of a heterosexual, cisgender person accepting you will be changed in the next life. This belief is destroying lives.  

We are all asked to live the Law of Chastity.  The same law will understandably have disparate impacts.  But I reject the cynical nihilism you propose here.

Jesus Christ welcomed everyone to follow Him.  To the extent you are saying "queer members" are somehow excluded from this invitation, I reject that.  Consider 2 Nephi 26:

Quote

32 And again, the Lord God hath commanded that men should not murder; that they should not lie; that they should not steal; that they should not take the name of the Lord their God in vain; that they should not envy; that they should not have malice; that they should not contend one with another; that they should not commit whoredoms; and that they should do none of these things; for whoso doeth them shall perish.

33 For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.

I reject the insinuation that those who have innate sexual attraction to members of their own gender are exempted from this passage. 

I reject the insinuation that their struggle is so thoroughly unique that it gives them some sort of special permission to disobey the Law of Chastity that is otherwise applicable to everyone in a covenant relationship with God.

I reject the insinuation that the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ gives cause for suicide.  I understand and appreciate that keeping the Law of Chastity can be quite difficult, but  the "We've gotta embrace same-sex behavior 'cuz otherwise homosexuals will kill themselves and it'll be our fault" meme just doesn't work for me. AKAIK, there is no correlation between gay suicides and social opprobrium. In fact, it appears that the correlation is not between "gay suicide" and "social opprobrium," but between "gay" and "suicide."  

According to a study in the Netherlands where homosexuality has been accepted and mainstreamed for years, homosexual behavior significantly increases the likelihood of psychiatric, mental and emotional disorders, negating the mindset that society's lack of tolerance of homosexual behavior and lifestyle produces these psychoses. Youth are four times more likely to suffer major depression, almost three times as likely to suffer generalized anxiety disorder, nearly four times as likely to experience conduct disorder, four times as likely to commit suicide, five times as likely to have nicotine dependence, six times as likely to suffer multiple disorders, and more than six times as likely to have attempted suicide. (Study of 5,998 Dutch adults) Theo G.M. Sandforte et al., "Same-Sex Sexual Behavior and Psychiatric Disorders: Findings from the Netherlands Mental Health Survey and Incidence," Archives of General Psychiatry 58, 10 (2001): 85-91.

Researchers found "an elevated suicide risk for homosexuals" even in tolerant Denmark. Ping Qin, Esben Agerbo, and Preben Bo Mortensen, "Suicide Risk in Relation to Socioeconomic, Demographic, Psychiatric, and Familial Factors: A National Register-Based Study of All Suicides in Denmark, 1981-1997." American Journal of Psychiatry 160 (2003): 765-772.

Moreover, people who like to go around blithely accusing active Latter-day Saints of fomenting gay suicide generally don't pay attention to (or are altogether ignorant of) stuff like this:

Quote

Active Latter-day Saints Seven Times Less Likely to Commit Suicide

SOURCE: American Journal of Epidemiology 2002;155:413-419. Write-up in: "High Religious Commitment Linked to Less Suicide", by Charnicia E. Huggins (Reuters Health), Daily News (6 March 2002), URL: http://dailynews.yah...om/htx/nm/20020 ... ion_1.html

NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - Young Mormon men living in Utah who closely adhere to the dictates of their faith are less likely to commit suicide than their peers who are less active in the church, study findings show.

The Mormon Church is known formally as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS).

For more than 10 years, 15- to 34-year-old males in Utah have had suicide rates markedly higher than those seen nationally. In fact, in the early to mid-1990s, suicide was the number one cause of death among 25- to 44-year-old men in the state and the second-leading cause of death among men aged 15 to 24.

"These results provide evidence that a low level of religious commitment is a potential risk factor for suicide," Dr. Sterling C. Hilton of Brigham Young University in Provo, Utah, and his colleagues write in the March 1st issue of the American Journal of Epidemiology.

Hmm. The Latter-day Saints who are at increased risk for suicide, then, are those who do not live according to the teachings of the LDS Church.

Put another way, the teachings of the LDS Church decrease the risk of suicide. This kinds contradicts the whole "We gotta let homosexuals ditch the Law of Chastity, else they'll kill themselves" narrative.

Just last month I started this thread: Opinion Article Re: Religious Activity and Suicidal Ideation (LGBT)

Some excerpts:

Quote

Opinion: Are Latter-day Saint LGBTQ youths less suicidal? New research asks the question

Strong familial ties and less drug and alcohol use were important factors in explaining the difference in reported mental health outcomes

By Walter Schumm  Oct 13, 2021, 10:03pm MDT

Might traditional religion actually be a protective factor against suicidality for youths, including LGBTQ youths?

A forthcoming analysis of data from the 2019 Utah Prevention Needs Assessment survey suggests that Latter-day Saint LGBQ youths (gender identity wasn’t looked at in the study) had lower levels of reported depression and suicidality than nonreligious LGBQ youths.

Published by three professors at Brigham Young University, the study also found that Latter-day Saint youths generally reported better outcomes in terms of depression and suicidality than their nonreligious peers.

In a separate study, recently published by Psychology of Sexual Orientation and Gender Diversity, researchers from Bowling Green State University analyzed the same data set and similarly found LGBTQ-Latter-day Saints had lower suicide risk than those of other faiths or no faith.

This research will undoubtedly prompt further investigation and study. The predominant social science theory used to explain discrepancies, on average, between mental health and physical health between sexual minorities and heterosexuals has been the sexual minority stress model, often labeled sexual minority theory. The gist of the theory is that social oppression and stigma adversely impact sexual minorities, including gay, lesbian, transgender and bisexual persons and families, leading to, if not causing, adverse health consequences.

 

Lately some controversy has arisen over the theory and the tendency to assume it’s correct without adequately testing alternative models. Still, most scholars today accept, with some evidence, that religion, especially traditional religion, is responsible for at least some stigma against sexual minorities. Surely cultural campaigns have plenty to say on that subject, too.

In turn, many scholars theorize that this stigma can become internalized and lead to physical and mental health problems. One study, for example, tied suicide and degraded mental health experienced by sexual minorities to conflicts with religion. Others have claimed that “One of the societal institutions with high rates of sexual stigma is religious organizations.”

Given that context, the recent data from Utah merits consideration. In the BYU analysis, Justin Dyer, Michael Goodman and David Wood, present evidence from the same large government survey of more than 86,000 Utah youths that the Bowling Green scholars analyzed. Their findings are that levels of depression and suicidality were elevated for LGBQ students across all levels of religious affiliation. Notably, however, the differences were smaller for Latter-day Saints than for other religious groups, including those with no religious affiliation.

On the surface, such findings would potentially further support sexual minority theory, at least in terms of elevated rates of depression and suicidality for LGBTQ youths. Some have suggested that Utah’s relatively high rate of youth suicide might be related to the large majority of residents who are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In social science literature, however, religiosity is generally associated with reduced suicide rates, possibly because it provides added social support, stronger community connections, meaning in life, better parent-child relations, and avoidance of self-destructive behaviors such as excessive alcohol or drug use.

Again: "{R}eligiosity is generally associated with reduced suicide rates, possibly because it provides added social support, stronger community connections, meaning in life, better parent-child relations, and avoidance of self-destructive behaviors such as excessive alcohol or drug use."

I can't help but contrast these general findings with the bleak picture you are claiming represents "99.9%" of the lives of gay Latter-day Saints.

Here's a sincere question for you: Based on the data set forth above (and I could provide much more if need be): If folks are so concerned about homosexuals committing suicide, why aren't they encouraging them to to maintain high levels of religious observance (which includes, in a Latter-day Saint context, abstinence from homosexual behavior)?

And why are they instead trying to persuade/cajole the Church into altering its teachings about same-sex attraction and the Law of Chastity when living in accordance with those teachings appears to lower the risk of suicide?

On 11/10/2021 at 9:03 PM, kimpearson said:

I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

I hope I have not been too blunt.  Accusations that the Church's teachings about the Law of Chastity are driving people to suicide, even when presented obliquely, do not sit well with me.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited November 12, 2021 by smac97

[smac97]

11 hours ago, Duncan said:

It was Elder Tad R. Callister said that the Church ruins it for others (churches that is) so if you fall out with the church then that's it, no church and your are apathetic towards God or atheist. That's what i've seen, not just for LGBTQ.  I don't know too many people who have left our church and joined another one.

Same here.  When I review the friends and family I know personally who have previously been raised in and active in the Church, and then turned away from it, I can only think of one who turned to another system of faith (he became an Evangelical Christian).  AFAICS, everyone else has become, as you put it, "apathetic towards God or atheist."

11 hours ago, Duncan said:

I think too people want fairness for everyone, why me and not them? so if they perceive unfairness towards the LGBTQ then why bother with the church? God is no respecter towards people but the Church seems to be and it doesn't make any sense.

I think the sense of it turns on the assumptions one brings to the table.

11 hours ago, Duncan said:

Some people want gay or anyone they seem as inferior to themselves out of the church. It boosts their own ego if others fall and they haven't.

This is an exceedingly rare sentiment, IMO.  And those who succumb to it are not acting in accordance with the teachings of the Church.

11 hours ago, Duncan said:

I had a YSA Bishop years say that God is working towards getting people out of the church, "thinning the herd" I don't believe that, it seems weird he wants people in the church and he wants people out of the church? I recall a scripture about a house divided against itself and all that.

https://www.thechurchnews.com/living-faith/2019-12-15/elder-tad-r-callister-members-church-latter-day-saints-169646

There are plenty of scriptures that speak of "separation."  Christ did not preach the "Bread of Life" sermon in John 6 knowing, I think, that it would result in some of His disciples leaving.  My sense is that he did not teach it because it was popular.  He did so because it was right.  Christ preached a gospel that was not going to be popular in the minds of an increasingly wicked world.  He knew that.  But He preached it anyway.  I think He knew beforehand that His message would alienate many people, including some otherwise good and decent people.  But He preached anyway.  I think He did so because those who were ready for His message needed to hear it, and needed to be gathered out of the World.  

Perhaps this is why He said: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."  Perhaps this is why He also said (several times, actually) : "Behold, I am God; give heed unto my word, which is quick and powerful, sharper than a two-edged sword, to the dividing asunder of both joints and marrow; therefore give heed unto my words."  Christ also said: "He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."  Christ also said "For if ye will not abide in my covenant ye are not worthy of me." 

As He told the Nephites in 3 Nephi 26:

Quote

8 And these things have I written, which are a lesser part of the things which he taught the people; and I have written them to the intent that they may be brought again unto this people, from the Gentiles, according to the words which Jesus hath spoken.
9 And when they shall have received this, which is expedient that they should have first, to try their faith, and if it shall so be that they shall believe these things then shall the greater things be made manifest unto them.
10 And if it so be that they will not believe these things, then shall the greater things be withheld from them, unto their condemnation.
11 Behold, I was about to write them, all which were engraven upon the plates of Nephi, but the Lord forbade it, saying: I will try the faith of my people.

I want everyone in the Church, but discipleship has to be on the Lord's terms if it is to mean anything.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited November 11, 2021 by smac97

[california boy]

9 hours ago, strappinglad said:

Where did the idea that life needs to be fair come from ? God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance . Is that fair? If I steal a dollar or a million dollars ,the sin must be repented of or I am damned.  Is that fair? If I am born with an affliction that repels and therefore never get married or be loved , is that fair ? Why am I living in a place of peace and prosperity while millions live in turmoil and poverty? Is that fair ? My child was struck with MS. She was a very talented pianist. Why will God not heal her when he heals others? NOT FAIR I SAY !!

Perhaps we should just curse God and die because life is not fair. 

It has been said that if the trials of a group of people were placed in the middle of the room and we got to pick a different trial if we wanted, most would end up picking their original problems back up. Possibly, but  for folks with the illnesses shown below, I'm not trading:

Top 10 Gruesome Disfiguring Diseases - Listverse

When members compare being LGBT with the 10 Gruesome Disfiguring Diseases in the world, it says to me they have no idea what they are talking about.  Being gay is not a disease. It is not a curse from God.  It is not a negative thing at all.  It just is how things are.  We follow the plan of God.  Finding happiness in someone we love.  We share that love and relationship in a way that strengthens our happiness and progression towards Christ.  

If a person can not find that kind of happiness within the Church, the best option is to leave it.  I know literally hundreds if not thousands of LGBT people that have found faith in God and are on a healthy path towards Christ that are no longer tied to some religious organization and no longer feel like they are victims of some God that has curse them with a horrible disease. 

I am not cursed by God.  On the contrary I am blessed and strengthened by God for being gay.  He has given me a partner that I love more deeply than anything else on earth.  One that has taught me over the past 12 years that love can be deeper than I ever imagined.  That is critical to the plan of happiness that God has for us.  God has also taught me to love unconditionally towards those that are different.  To be more worried about my own sins than the sins of others.  To stand up for what I believe no matter what the cost.  Even when that cost was shunning from my family for 13 years.  And it taught me to forgive them when they were ready.

 Not only have I grown spiritually from being gay, my entire family learned how to be more Christ like.  Does that sound like some horrible disfiguring disease?  Does that sound like a curse from God?  Does that sound like God has been unfair to me?  Maybe, like my family, the Church itself will grow and learn some of the most important lessons God wanted his children to learn from those that are different.  I have already seen great strides within my lifetime.  

Life is fair because all that God does leads us back to him.

 

[CV75]

12 hours ago, kimpearson said:

I participate and follow this board because the majority of participants are traditional believing members who hold the beliefs that the majority of active members hold.  You are not afraid to speak up and share your thoughts.

Here is my question for you.  What is the narrative you believe is the actual narrative of most LGTBQ members of the Church?  Do you believe large numbers of LGTBQ members are active and happy in Church?  Do you believe that the stories shared in Church publications represent the common experiences of LGTBQ members?  Please offer up the reasons and data that supports your belief as to the common LGTBQ narrative.

Following is my lived experience on the narrative of the overwhelming majority of LGTBQ members.

I feel the current effort by the Church relating to LGTBQ+ stories is only to share the positive stories and completely ignore the bigger picture.  I hear so many members latching onto these stories as somehow offering hope and a path for LGTBQ members of the Church.  I hear many saying these stories give them hope personally.  I fear this will turn into an incredibly damaging hurtful trend for the vast majority of our LGTBQ children.  With hundreds of thousands of LGTBQ members (16 million times 5%), you can undoubtedly find 100 that are having a positive experience in the Church along with their personal relationship with God.

When my son came out in 2013 I started a relentless search for a path for him within the Church.  I attended conferences, read blogs, watched podcasts and most importantly listened to literally 3 or 4 thousand personal stories in the last eight years.  I am a member of Church affirming Facebook groups, questioning Facebook groups and Church opposing groups.  I can’t claim that my experience reflects the true picture 100% but I am highly confident it is the true picture.  I personally have only heard less than 20 stories of queer members who are active, happy and at peace with the Church, their lives and God.  I have heard the stories of maybe 50 who are sincerely trying to make the Church work for a queer single person but find many struggles and much pain in trying to do so.  I have heard the story of maybe 20 mixed orientation marriages that have endured for more than 20 years where the couple is active,  happy and at peace with the Church and God.

What about the other 99.9%?  I have listened to a thousand stories of queer members who spent years trying to make Church and God work for them.  They each came to a point where to go on who have likely led to a mental breakdown or suicide.  They struggle with believing in a loving God.  I have listened to hundreds of queer members who tried to make mixed orientation marriages work.  Almost all ended in very ugly ways with hurt children and spouses.  By far the largest queer story is those that left the Church and often God as soon as they fully admitted to themselves they were queer.  Often that process involved mental illness and suicidal ideation.  In my experience these are the true story of queer members of the Church in such overwhelming numbers that any other story has little or no value to the whole group of queer members.  I honor the lucky few who have good stories and I am happy for them but their stories should be shared very carefully because for the vast majority of queer members, these stories are destructive and hurtful.  These positive stories appear to me to only benefit non-queer members who want to feel good about themselves and the Church.  These stories support a false belief that there is a place for queer members in the Church.  The only place for queer members in the Church is to live a pretend life of a heterosexual, cisgender person accepting you will be changed in the next life. This belief is destroying lives.  

I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
 

All members have the gift of the Holy Ghost and can obtain answers for themselves. The happiest LGBTQ members, as with anyone, are those who create their own narrative with this precious gift, and not simply assume or adopt something they read in a magazine, online, or from someone else. The approach to take is common to all members.

My observation and interpretation of Church statistics tell me that large numbers of members of all stripes are not active and happy in Church, ergo not following the best approach to being active and happy, and that the same holds true for LGBTQ members. Everybody can be unhappy and inactive over any point of doctrine or interaction. The converse is also the case. In addition, many unhappy people still come to Church at the very least to partake of the Sacrament and improve their spiritual lot.

I do not know why some people seem to suffer more than others to the point of being more prone to mental breakdown or suicide according to published statistics. I do know the Lord watches and weeps over them until the Judgement Day when He wipes all tears away from their eyes.

We are often “Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth” because we put too much emotion and intellect, often negatively oriented but not necessarily so, into solving our problems programmatically and politically, and not enough of our deeper inclinations into becoming vulnerable enough to connect with God.

From my experience with how the Brethren approach the issues tormenting the world, I am positive they are seeing and reviewing the same data you are and doing what they can policy- and programmatic-wise. But in the end they give us baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost (keys of the ordinances), and how to apply these ordinances and covenants in the form of discipleship (keys of revelation) in their General Conference talks and other venues.

[strappinglad]

5 minutes ago, california boy said:

When members compare being LGBT with the 10 Gruesome Disfiguring Diseases in the world,

How did I know that comment was coming ? My reference was to my last paragraph about trading problems. It was not a comparison. 

You have found being gay a joy and a blessing to yourself and others. Wonderful ! Many others have found it to be a serious burden as was expressed in the OP, even to the point of self-harm. Should we discount their feelings because of your success?

[california boy]

1 hour ago, strappinglad said:

How did I know that comment was coming ? My reference was to my last paragraph about trading problems. It was not a comparison. 

You have found being gay a joy and a blessing to yourself and others. Wonderful ! Many others have found it to be a serious burden as was expressed in the OP, even to the point of self-harm. Should we discount their feelings because of your success?

My question is why do you continue to use that analogy?  

The self harm does not come from being gay.  The self harm comes when people tell them they don't fit in.   That they need to conform to some image that they will never fit into.  It comes from family and friends and churches that see them as different, even diseased.  Your analogy is the problem.   You don't bring up the Top 10 Gruesome Disfiguring Diseases - Listverse and apply it to straight people who are struggling to find companionship and want to be with that person for the rest of their life.  Have you ever brought up Top 10 Gruesome Disfiguring Diseases - Listverse when talking to Nehor about being single?  How about Calm and her struggles with health issues?  

They are not victims of being LGBT.  They are victims your type of thinking.  Is that blunt enough?

Edited November 11, 2021 by california boy

[MrShorty]

As I see it (more and more of a cafeteria Mormon), I think the narrative depends in large part on what one believes about how the Church ought to fit into their path towards salvation and exaltation.

If your path to salvation and exaltation includes full fellowship and participation in the Church. To paraphrase Elder McConkie (if appropriate), if we assume that we have all the light and knowledge needed to understand LGBT+ issues and there is no more light and knowledge to be revealed, then homosexual members should probably avoid the mixed orientation marriage route and live a long life of singleness and celibacy. Bisexual members will have the harder decision of whether or not to enter an opposite sex marriage and be faithful to that spouse. Transgender members should decide to present as their "biological sex at birth" designation. Intersex members will be dealt with by the top leadership on a case by case basis (I have no idea what principles go into these deliberations). I don't see much talk for the asexual members. IMO, the Church's ideal orientation would be hetero-romantic (to encourage seeking an opposite sex spouse), hetero-demisexual (to minimize the temptation towards sexual activity before the relationship can move towards marriage). I have no idea what the Church expects of those elsewhere on the asexual spectrum. Entering into an allosexual-asexual mixed orientation marriage will have most of the same problems of other mixed orientation marriages, so maybe the best choice is single. Hetero-romantic asexuals might have the advantage of being better positioned to enter long term platonic "roommate" type relationships than allosexuals.

That's what I understand about the Church's narratives for LGBT+ people -- assuming (as I think the Church does) that everyone's path to salvation and exaltation must include full fellowship and participation in the Church and that we have all the light and knowledge needed to come to this conclusion.

Of course, if you believe that full fellowship and participation in the Church is not necessary to your individual path to salvation and exaltation, there are other options. I see some who enter same sex relationships and continue to partially participate in the Church. Others are in full fellowship and participation for only part of their life (Tom Christofferson who spent most of his adult life in a same sex relationship, then left that relationship to come into full fellowship. Others may start out in full fellowship, then leave when they marry). If we start to relax assumptions about how much we know or how much fellowship/participation in the Church is required for salvation and exaltation, then a person might choose any of these narratives as valid, and not worry about what the Church officially thinks.

Once on the "slippery slope" of relaxing assumptions, one can then prayerfully come to whatever conclusions God leads you to. Perhaps that means completely leaving the Church in favor of a more LGBT affirmation congregation/church. Or maybe you don't choose to join any particular church. You become your own moral agent to choose for yourself (in consultation with God). The hardest part here for those coming from and LDS tradition is it might be quite a challenge to the Church's claims to be Christ's one true Church to feel led by God to leave the one true Church.

Whatever path one chooses, in the end, it all comes down to faith that God can lead and is leading you on your path to salvation and exaltation, and that Christ's atonement can cover whatever errors in judgement you happen to make along the way.

[Fether]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

We could ask the same question of unmarried (never-marrieds, divorced, widowed). 

I think there is a difference between being told:

(Heterosexual) I once was able to have sex when I was married, I now can’t because I’m not married, but it is a possibility in the future 

and

(Homosexual) I could never have sex in the past, cannot have sex now, and never will be able to have sex it.

We should, at very least, consider this

Edited November 11, 2021 by Fether

[smac97]

40 minutes ago, Fether said:

I think there is a difference between being told:

(Heterosexual) I once was able to have sex when I was married, I now can’t because I’m not married, but it is a possibility in the future 

and

(Homosexual) I could never have sex in the past, cannot have sex now, and never will be able to have sex it.

We should, at very least, consider this

I consider it to an extent.  But I don't accept that heterosexuals are treated differently from homosexuals under the Law of Chastity.  Everybody, regardless of sexual orientation, faces the same constraints pertaining to sexual behavior.

I get that we as a society have radically re-defined marriage to include same-sex unions, but such are not recognized in the Church (nor are polygamist unions, regardless of legality).

Thanks,

-Smac

[Duncan]

let's be honest male members of the church can be sealed to two or more women today and a gay member can't be married even once without sanctions to their membership, that seems unfair. A gay member wants to live the law of chastity with their legal gay spouse, but can't due to sanctions but a heterosexual member also wants to live the LOC and can be married without sanctions, that seems unfair to me. If people don't feel accepted or treated the same as everyone else will go where they are accepted and feel validated.

Edited November 11, 2021 by Duncan

[Fether]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

I consider it to an extent.  But I don't accept that heterosexuals are treated differently from homosexuals under the Law of Chastity.  Everybody, regardless of sexual orientation, faces the same constraints pertaining to sexual behavior.

I get that we as a society have radically re-defined marriage to include same-sex unions, but such are not recognized in the Church (nor are polygamist unions, regardless of legality).

Thanks,

-Smac

I agree they are held under the same standard, but the message is different.

we tell heterosexuals that one day they can have sex. We tell homosexuals that they can never have sex.

One comes with a message of hope. The other is a threat of condemnation.

I’m  no proponent of changing anything, I just think we should at least acknowledge that huge difference when we talk about this

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, MrShorty said:

Bisexual members will have the harder decision of whether or not to enter an opposite sex marriage and be faithful to that spouse.

There is this weirdly prevalent idea that anyone bisexual is somehow less capable of being monogamous.

[Nofear]

I have developed an analogy of thought. If earth is like a school experience then some of us will do better with some subjects than others. And, just like school, we don't take every course all at once but break it apart into semesters. Christ's Gospel and Covenants is a course that is a requirement for everybody for graduation. I am blessed to be taking that course right now. Some people are not taking that course yet but are taking other courses -- courses that I am not currently taking but will need to later. Some perhaps haven't met the "prerequisites" for the Gospel and Covenants course but others may well be ready to take it but happen to not be because they are taking other courses. I don't have to judge anybody for their current educational path. But, even with non-judgement of others, I can still acknowledge the eventual requirement of the Gospel and Covenant's course for everybody. Sadly, some people are flunking the Gospel and Covenants course and will have to "retake" it later.

As it relates to the current thread, it seems plausible to me that some individuals, including some LGTBQ individuals, are experiencing mortality and their coursework during mortality may not include Christ's Gospel and Covenants course just yet. Emotionally that is a hard thing for me to accept because the course is so downright awesome--easily the best course I am taking right now! While it's hard for me to empathize with those not currently taking the course, intellectually, I can allow the thought.

[Calm]

28 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

There is this weirdly prevalent idea that anyone bisexual is somehow less capable of being monogamous.

As if attraction to females is somehow different to males and that they long to have a male and a female in their lives rather than just one person of either persuasion.  There may be some who do desire both male and female physical attributes in their lovers, but I believe that would be a different label.  Of course they are attracted to twice as many people, so maybe it is twice as hard to be faithful  . (Actually they may be attracted to very few if they have an attraction that is limited to very few men or women just as a hertero or homosexual may have few they are attracted to).

Edited November 11, 2021 by Calm

[smac97]

8 minutes ago, Fether said:

I agree they are held under the same standard, but the message is different.

I'm not sure that's true.  Everyone is told the same "message," which is that sex is only to be between a husband and wife.

8 minutes ago, Fether said:

we tell heterosexuals that one day they can have sex.

Well, no, we don't.  We tell them the same thing we tell homosexuals.

I just saw this article earlier today: Cody Alan Opens Up About His Modern Family & Leaving the Mormon Church After Coming Out

This is a fellow who "knew he was gay from a young age," but nevertheless got married to a woman and had sex with her.  So the message to him was the same as the message to heterosexuals.

8 minutes ago, Fether said:

We tell homosexuals that they can never have sex.

We tell everyone that they can never have homosexual sex.

8 minutes ago, Fether said:

One comes with a message of hope. The other is a threat of condemnation.

The Law of Chastity presents the same parameters of acceptable sexual behavior to everyone, regardless of sexual orientation.

There are plenty of heterosexual members who may feel a "threat of condemnation" because of the prohibition against extramarital heterosexual sex.  That does not, in my view, impair or invalidate the Law of Chastity.  It's a matter of perspective.  Is a commandment of God a good thing or a bad thing?  I think they are always a good thing, even when obeying them is difficult.  YMMV.

8 minutes ago, Fether said:

I’m  no proponent of changing anything, I just think we should at least acknowledge that huge difference when we talk about this

There is also a "huge difference" in situation between married and unmarried folks.  More than half of the adult members of the Church are not married.  We could acknowledge that too.

Thanks,

-Smac

[SeekingUnderstanding]

54 minutes ago, smac97 said:

The Law of Chastity presents the same parameters of acceptable sexual behavior to everyone, regardless of sexual orientation.

 

 

55 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Well, no, we don't.  We tell them the same thing we tell homosexuals

 

55 minutes ago, smac97 said:

We tell everyone that they can never have homosexual sex.

Apologetics at its finest. 

[smac97]

1 minute ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Apologetics at its finest. 

Substance-free driveby potshot at its finest.

Thanks,

-Smac