What do you believe is the current narrative for most LGTBQ members of the Church?

[smac97]

On 11/12/2021 at 5:09 PM, california boy said:

Not sure what your point is.  The vast majority of gay guys grew up and lived most of their lives not being even able to marry the person they love.  

But the "vast majority" did not grow up on the Church.  Yet you are blaming the Church anyway.  For . . . something.

On 11/12/2021 at 5:09 PM, california boy said:

Something your Church did everything they could to prevent them from doing.  

So did a lot of black folks, yet you never seem to get around to categorically condemning them as hateful bigots and endlessly rail against them, years after the fact, for daring to exercise their constitutional rights and vote according to their preferences and conscience.

Selective outrage has its perks, I guess.  

Same-sex marriage is the law of the land.  I disagree with it, but it's hardly worth spewing venom at those who support it.  It's over, CV.  We and ours lost, you and yours won.  How you can even now, many years later, still express ongoing hostility and resentment for the Church and its members exercising their constitutional right to vote is, frankly, weird.  

I hope someday you will find the capacity to tolerate, rather then endlessly condemn and calumnate against, those who do not think exactly like you.

On 11/12/2021 at 5:09 PM, california boy said:

They also grew up being constantly told by their churches that they were going to hell, were perverts, and abominations which is exacta what Spencer W. Kimball referred to those that were gay in  The Miracle of Forgiveness.  It is that book my Church leaders and father asked me to read, highlighting that chapter.  So why would a lot of them worry about conforming to a monogamous marriage?  

Right.  Much easier to abdicate any sense of self-governance and control.  Just blame the Mormons for every choice in your life.

On 11/12/2021 at 5:09 PM, california boy said:

You expect decades of behavior to all the sudden conform with that religion wants?

Huh?

On 11/12/2021 at 5:09 PM, california boy said:

Those same religions that kicked them out some for just being gay and just about every one of them for wanting to live with the person they choose?  It wasn't all that long ago when the Church punished gay couples from marrying by calling them apostates, excommunicating them from the church and refusing to baptize their underaged children.

Yeah, that was a harrowing three years full of . . . nothing much.  Some few quiet and private meetings.

On 11/12/2021 at 5:09 PM, california boy said:

The question I would like you to answer is "Why would a gay person feel the need for a monogamous marriage if both partners were ok with an open relationship?  

When there are essentially no constraints on sexual behavior, descent into rampant promiscuity and infidelity is to be expected, I suppose.

How this ends up being grounds to vilify the Church is beyond me.  And yet, you find a way.

As I noted previously, some heterosexual and homosexual former members adopt an "In for a penny..." attitude relative to extramarital sexual activity.  But this is not an attitude that is exclusive to them.  To the contrary, the rampant promiscuity and infidelity in the sociological data simply cannot be explained with an airy "It's all the Mormons' fault!"

On 11/12/2021 at 5:09 PM, california boy said:

Name just ONE thing the Church has done to encourage gay couples to have a monogamous committed relationship.

Name just ONE thing the Church has done to encourage its members to commit fornication or adultery.

What on earth are you saying here?  Why would you expect the Church to "encourage" sexual behavior that is prohibited by the doctrines of the Church?

Thanks,

-Smac

[thatjimguy]

Quote

 

If that were true, and it wasn’t about Easton, then he could have easily communicated so to the respective staff and administrators in a private meeting- without using loaded words such ‘commandeering’.

He could have stated that it ‘wasn’t Easton’s fault’ or that he didn’t hold him responsible to ensure that nobody aimed such muskets at the valedictorian.

 

I do not think it was a prepared speech. If it were, perhaps he could have worded it differently as you suggested.

[Canadiandude]

5 hours ago, thatjimguy said:

An "attack" on him personally? No, it certainly wasn't that. That was a criticism of those who approved the speech because it risks the graduating ceremony to turn into a political show for any number of subjects. If you see that as an attack, it is because you want to see it as such. 

 

Why is my sexual orientation political but yours isn’t?

Who decides who’s too political for public??

How often do BYU student speakers at commencement suggest they are straight?

Funnily enough without any apostolic accusations of their commandeering the podium, nor dissatisfaction that it occurred in the first place.

https://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2021/08/27/how-often-do-byu-student-speakers-at-commencement-suggest-theyre-straight/

 

5 hours ago, thatjimguy said:

How beneficial to 2slgbtq+ BYU students and non-students was Elder Holland’s advocacy of more people taking up metaphorical ‘muskets’ in defense of the church’s doctrine re: traditional families?

Because that statement wasn't for them. The traditional family has been degraded for the last decade very hard and the young, and our society, are going to suffer from it. You don't think the traditional family has been looked down upon?

I do not believe that the traditional family has been looked down upon, at least not compared to ‘non-traditional’ families.

What countries ban heterosexual marriages?

what adoption agencies refuse to serve heterosexual marriages?

How long has heterosexual marriage been institutionalized in your country (if it has)? What about homosexual and other marriages between consenting adults?

How did such marriage come to be politically institutionalized? Was it assumed as a norm or deemed ‘political’ and unavailable? 

Please describe for me the political campaigns so as to ensure heterosexual marriages never become institutionalized.

What’s that? There weren’t any?

Alight, now do the same for other kinds of marriages, specifically homosexual.

5 hours ago, thatjimguy said:

If you see that as an attack, it is because you want to see it as such. 

 

Edited November 14, 2021 by Canadiandude

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

So did a lot of black folks

This is a horrible statement even for you. A lot of religiously conservative people (including black religious conservatives) opposed gay marriage. It has nothing to do with their skin color. Give me a break. 

Edited November 14, 2021 by SeekingUnderstanding

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

still express ongoing hostility and resentment for the Church and its members exercising their constitutional right to vote is, frankly, weird.

You vote to remove someone’s constitutional guaranteed freedom one time and they just can’t let it go. Cry me a river. 

[Calm]

5 hours ago, thatjimguy said:

You don't think the traditional family has been looked down upon?

I don’t think it has been looked down upon, rather it just isn’t the ideal anymore.  Might feel like the same thing to many.

Now large families…there is a weird contradiction there where there is a sense from many that it’s unhealthy and puts a strain on society, but then there is a fascination with them as demonstrated by reality TV.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

So did a lot of black folks, yet you never seem to get around to categorically condemning them as hateful bigots and endlessly rail against them, years after the fact, for daring to exercise their constitutional rights and vote according to their preferences and conscience.

Maybe he would if over the years we had more than a few show up here (of the conservative religious persuasion).

Edited November 14, 2021 by Calm

[kimpearson]

21 hours ago, Gillebre said:

I can speak to this topic as a male member of the Church of Jesus Christ who has been deeply attracted to other males throughout my life. My experience will be unique and different, but what I've learned through hard experience does, I think, paint the best solution.

My experience tells me that if the LGBT person has not internalized their covenants on a deeply personal, even intimate level, and learned for themselves how the Savior can save them individually, then I fear they will perpetually be blown around and torn between two opposing worldviews.

I am secure where I stand because I've fought long and hard with the natural man to stabilize my orbit around the Son through the covenants I've made with Him. This is the fruit that every single LGBT Saint can have for themselves if they want it badly enough. They can actually have personal peace throughout their lives no matter where their journey takes them.

Nothing of this mortal world can give us the lasting desire to be valiant and endure to the end except it be the undeniable witness and assurance that if He truly does command us to live a chaste life then He will make a way for us to be successful. That success can only be found in a covenant partnership with Him.

I love that the Brethren are seeking further light about these challenging questions and trials of faith. Some say that the celibate lifestyle is unfair or unreasonable to expect, and an irrational impossibility, but I testify as He lives that what He asks us to do is in fact possible because He asked it, and I have seen the principles prove themselves.

LGBT Saints have an especial and urgent need to draw near to the Savior so that the Holy Ghost can both teach and testify to them of His will for them, and this in truth and not according to their own will for what the world and their innate feelings drive them towards.

As LGBT Saints place their desires on the altar of sacrifice and make the same type of offering as Abraham I can witness that He will answer their faith and trust with pure revelation and inspiration for their lives. He can quiet their fears and lay to rest their uncertainty about the future because they are willing to trust His goodness and in the power of His redemption.

The answers they really need are these in no particular order:

1. Is this truly His Church and are these His authorized servants?

2. Does He expect them to both live and embrace the Law of Chastity?

3. Are they willing to live by His words as the Spirit confirms them even as those words contradict the world's popular wisdom?

4. Are they willing to yoke themselves to Him every day by living inside their covenants?

It's all really about coming to know and trust Jesus Christ. If they will do this and strive to repent then the darkness of confusion will be dispersed by the light they've invited into their lives by making time for, and actively remembering Him everyday. 

Bottom line: LGBT Saints can know how the Lord wants them to live, and they will be blessed beyond measure for their diligence in seeking His will over their own. No earthly companionship, romance, or sexual fulfillment can hold a candle to the Savior of the world. All other things fall away when He becomes everything to them.

I would ask you how many LGTBQ members you personally know that have achieved the peace you have and how many haven't?  I would also ask are you single or married?  If married are you sexually satisfied in that relationship?  If single how old are you?  Have you always kept the law of chastity?  You might feel I am invading your privacy but I have heard your exact words many times by those younger than their 40's but never from anyone past their 40's that didn't have a time in their life when they had a gay relationship that was deeply committed for awhile.  I have heard your words expressed by a number of married men who say they are gay but when questioned about their sexual attraction to their wife they have all confirmed a healthy sex life with physical attraction to their wife thus by definition they were actually bisexual.  I have never met a married or formerly married man who was truly gay who shared with me that they enjoyed sex with their wife and felt fulfilled.  These gay men were always deeply scared by their marriage to the opposite sex.  Again, I am speaking form a place of having personally listened to 3 or 4 thousand stories of LGTBQ members and maybe these stories aren't representative although I doubt that.   One last question have you always been open with everyone around you about your attraction?  If not, why not?

If your solution is the best solution for every LGTBQ member, then why doesn't it appear to be happening to so many who have tried so hard to do everything you mention in your post.  I have talked to many LGTBQ members and former members who have tried all the things you outline and the most common story I have heard is they felt spiritual confirmation that God loves them just the way they are and they should leave the Church and look for a committed loving relationship.  They bear a testimony to this with all the same feeling you do.   The next most common story that covers pretty much all the rest is they felt nothing from God and after working so hard decided the very promises you make are false and they leave the Church and God.

[Hamba Tuhan]

10 hours ago, Gillebre said:

I invite my fellow brothers and sisters in the Church to chime in on this...do you feel I'm in error to make this generalization as I've explained it?

You're not in error. What you have described is, in fact, the consecration that all Saints must aspire to; some just don't realise it yet because they've found discipleship to be a comfortable fit so far. That won't last; it never does, often because the perception of comfort is based more on culture than on actual doctrine.

But you are up against people who have a vested interest in speaking against the message of Christ when it comes to these matters. They are prepared to argue that agency isn't real, that repentance isn't necessary, and that if there is a God, and if He's really merciful, He is prepared to save us in rather than from our sins. Never mind that the end result of such false messages is despair and, eventually, alienation from the abiding power of Christ.

You are likewise up against people who will attempt to use emotional blackmail against you by claiming, contrary to all data, that your defence of the message of Christ is the real source of despair and the cause of suffering.

The Book of Mormon accurately describes such messages as 'antichrist' because, well, they entirely eliminate Him, His atoning sacrifice, and His power and desire to redeem. They also destroy the divine agency that we fought for like lions before this life, and which was only secured 'by the blood of the Lamb'.

We hear echoes of the preaching of the Book of Mormon antichrists in this very thread:

• 'And many more such things did he say unto them, telling them that ... whatsoever a man did was no crime'.
• 'And he also testified unto the people that all mankind should be saved at the last day, and that they need not fear nor tremble, but that they might lift up their heads and rejoice; for the Lord had created all men, and had also redeemed all men; and, in the end, all men should have eternal life'.

As C.S. Lewis correctly noted, 'There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done", and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done"'.

Edited November 14, 2021 by Hamba Tuhan

[Meadowchik]

7 hours ago, Gillebre said:

To me it's only a risk if the underlying premise, the Atonement of Jesus Christ, were not a reality. 

If the Atonement is real, that still doesn't make the church's stance on LGBT lives real. Same-sex relationships could be intended as a good path intended for them to further understand Christ.

If they don't take the path of engaging in human love and commitment when they desire it and have the opportunity, they risk the experiences and lessons they could have before arriving at the bar of judgment.

Christ taught that now is the time, that this is the life for men to fashion His kingdom out of relationships. So, on the contrary, they could be risking alot by heeding your advice, as much as anyone else who neglects to heed the word of God.

[Gillebre]

9 hours ago, kimpearson said:

I would ask you how many LGTBQ members you personally know that have achieved the peace you have and how many haven't?  I would also ask are you single or married?  If married are you sexually satisfied in that relationship?  If single how old are you?  Have you always kept the law of chastity?  You might feel I am invading your privacy but I have heard your exact words many times by those younger than their 40's but never from anyone past their 40's that didn't have a time in their life when they had a gay relationship that was deeply committed for awhile.  I have heard your words expressed by a number of married men who say they are gay but when questioned about their sexual attraction to their wife they have all confirmed a healthy sex life with physical attraction to their wife thus by definition they were actually bisexual.  I have never met a married or formerly married man who was truly gay who shared with me that they enjoyed sex with their wife and felt fulfilled.  These gay men were always deeply scared by their marriage to the opposite sex.  Again, I am speaking form a place of having personally listened to 3 or 4 thousand stories of LGTBQ members and maybe these stories aren't representative although I doubt that.   One last question have you always been open with everyone around you about your attraction?  If not, why not?

If your solution is the best solution for every LGTBQ member, then why doesn't it appear to be happening to so many who have tried so hard to do everything you mention in your post.  I have talked to many LGTBQ members and former members who have tried all the things you outline and the most common story I have heard is they felt spiritual confirmation that God loves them just the way they are and they should leave the Church and look for a committed loving relationship.  They bear a testimony to this with all the same feeling you do.   The next most common story that covers pretty much all the rest is they felt nothing from God and after working so hard decided the very promises you make are false and they leave the Church and God.

I'm in my early 30s and am engaged to be married to a woman that I've been dating for over two years. I've never acted on my feelings with anyone, but I have not always kept the law of chastity. In fact I'd say I've struggled for over 15 years to keep it completely, but I do keep it now. 

I don't know what my married life will look like in 5, 10, or 15+ years, but I know that as long as I do everything in my power to let the Spirit awaken my soul daily then I will not depart from the path I'm now on. If I personally turn back and embrace the pleasing and distracted life of video games, Netflix, and overall selfishness then I'll stop treasuring the Book of Mormon because I've replaced it as my treasure. I'll find "better" things to do than study Come Follow Me because it will have lost appeal. I'll find reasons not to pray meaningfully when it's hard to do so sometimes, or to rationalize serving myself instead of others because my own wants now come first. I pray I don't go back to that, and will fight with all my strength to never trade what I've gained for what I gave up to get it. 

You pose an important question about why others don't find the same peace and results as I have. I personally know a dozen other Saints like me who have, and many more who have not.

Several scriptures come to mind in 3 Nephi 27:33 and D&C 121:34-35 and D&C 25:10 and D&C 88:67 and Ether 12:27 that I believe may help illustrate the life-saving and sustaining principles we all need.

Quote

3 Nephi 27:33 ...enter ye in at the strait gate; for strait is the gate, and narrow is the way that leads to life, and few there be that find it; but wide is the gate, and broad the way which leads to death, and many there be that travel therein, until the night cometh, wherein no man can work.

D&C 121:34 Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen? 35 Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world

D&C 25:10 And verily I say unto thee that thou shalt lay aside the things of this world, and seek for the things of a better.

D&C 88:67 And if your eye be single to my glory, your whole bodies shall be filled with light, and there shall be no darkness in you; and that body which is filled with light comprehendeth all things.

Ether 12:27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

I base my overall generalization on the idea that if God is willing to bless me and others I've met in this way of reconciliation then He is willing to offer the same to any others who seek it with a singular focus. It's that simple in my mind because God is constant and is perfectly faithful in the execution of His work and glory to give us *all* that He has. Just because many fail doesn't mean He isn't trying to bless us with peace and revelation to comfort us when we need it most.

Would you agree that if God offers these blessings that He would do so on the same conditions to all His children that ask, seek, and knock after them? To say otherwise means He is selective in who He is willing to bless.

Back to the question of why others aren't receiving the same blessings I've witnessed in my own life and in others. I have five answers from the five scriptures I shared, and these encompass everything about the manner they choose to live on a daily and weekly basis, and their determination to repent when they realize they've gone off into a strange road on their own.

Quote

1. This path to peace and life requires us to actively seek and sustain spiritual rebirth. No one will stumble onto it, and Saints who fail to rise above casual observance will never stay on it either. This life isn't about finding the path once and then perfectly walking in it, but in repenting to get back on track every time we stray. Sometimes we don't do that for a long time, but repentance is always available as long as we're capable of it. We forget that Satan is actively opposing us at every opportunity. The ever narrowing nature of this covenant path means that we need to receive greater endowments of grace in order to stay the course.

2. One of the biggest reasons that I believe people fail to find or stay on this course is because they ultimately value something else more than the Lord. Embracing a lifestyle of self-indulgence makes it so much harder to even desire to change our ways. Even choosing to remain in a state of partial worldliness does us no favors because no one can serve two masters, and a house divided against itself *will* fall. Harboring feelings of malice or enmity towards others will only leave us vulnerable as the Spirit is forced to leave us. Eventually experience will hopefully illustrate clearly that what the world offers isn't spiritually fulfilling, and then it'll finally become easier to set our hearts on establishing the Kingdom of God and His righteousness.

3. We fail to use our agency in seeking for the things of the "better", or spiritual, world. We must come to hunger and thirst after righteousness and to let ourselves be driven by the need for light and spiritual nourishment *every day*. I guarantee that if someone has fallen away then they aren't nourishing themselves daily on the Book of Mormon (feasting, not merely reading a chapter or a few verses). The spiritual rebirth that we all need to be steady in our walk must be renewed in our hearts and evidenced by our actions far more than just when we partake of the Sacrament. A half-hearted effort throughout each day and during the week will never yield the spiritual power to fend off Satan's attacks, as well as the temptations, fears, and doubts that we all face throughout life. A heartfelt desire planted deeply within us for those blessings the Lord offers goes a long way to giving us the motivation we need to keep getting up when we stumble and fall short. It's about steady growth and progress towards the goal of Christ, and the Savior never ceases trying to inspire us to lift our gaze above our own limited views of ourselves, others, and His willingness to carry 99% of our burdens while we learn how to be more consistent in obedience. 

4. We must be able to recognize when we're regressing in darkness rather than growing up in light, and fight to pursue the latter. We must become individuals who repent relentlessly so we can invite the Holy Ghost to teach and prompt us. We do this by showing Him our willingness to listen and obey quickly. If we don't do this, meaning keeping our eye single to God, then other influences and the cares of the world seep in and reorder our priorities. When His will, and by extension our covenants, comes first then everything else falls into place. This makes it much easier to sustain our growth.

5. We must regularly use our agency to cooperate with the Lord as He presents us with opportunities and grace to gradually change our weakness into strength. We can't be ignoring our weak spots or Satan will exploit them over and over again. Consequently we will only be protected as we thoughtfully wear the full armor of God a little more consistently from day to day. By embracing our reliance on the Lord through ongoing prayer can we actually grow in righteousness from week to week and month to month.

Your other point speaks to something that highlights a contradiction: the idea that the Spirit has deliberately led people away from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and to walk their own path. I'm not omniscient so I can't make any final judgments on the course others choose, but I can confidently say that either this is all true as Apostles and Prophets so testify or it's all false and a complete waste of time. 

If this is the truth of God then His Spirit isn't telling people to ignore the commandments and live their own favored truths. There are other spirits out there besides the Holy Spirit, and the forces of good and evil are at war over us. God either has one standard and one properly authorized Church with ordained servants or He has none at all on the earth. He's not a God of confusion, but of order, and it's against His nature to guide His Church in one direction while simultaneously telling these other children they can ignore parts or all that offends their expectations for life. It's one or the other and we're responsible for the side we embrace. 

As there are many who have once been on the covenant path to peace and have since left they did so because in some capacity they stopped doing the things I pointed out above. The result was that they removed His covenant yoke from their lives.

We won't ever live perfectly in this life, but we can make progress along an upward trajectory of our own choosing independent of our circumstances. One of the chief functions of the gift of the Holy Ghost, if we have made room for Him in our lives, is to inspire us to reach for greater heights and possibilities. I felt an assurance that the Lord could actually make me holy according to the promises given in the Book of Mormon, and with that encouragement I was able to make small, steady changes and gradual adjustments to how I lived one day a time. Like Peter who started to walk on water, but then began to sink, I can't take my focus off of the Savior for long or I'll start to drown in darkness again and become like every other person who fell from their walk on this path to peace and life. Spiritual weeds often work their way into our lives and choke our faith and throw us into darkness, but we *can* choose to repent and let the Lord raise us up again and again. He is willing to do that in spite of our assumptions to the contrary.

I've fallen from the path so many, many times. I've given up for months and years at a time. Small and seemingly insignificant acts of faith changed everything about my spiritual life, and they will for anyone who embraces the hunger for light. That driving need for light is what I have now that I didn't have before when I kept rising and falling over and over. Now that I've chosen to proactively engage with the Holy Ghost as a companion to whom I'm constantly looking at as a partner throughout my day the challenges become easier to bear successfully. I've stopped trying to live my life for myself and in exchange He has made what felt impossible a reality. 

In conclusion the true path is hard to find and stay on because the world is right in front of us and is more immediately enticing and entertaining than laboring in the Spirit to even want to repent after falling short again and again, but *it is* possible to those that want it badly enough and won't cease striving until they see His face (D&C 93:1).

Edited November 14, 2021 by Gillebre

[Gillebre]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

You're not in error. What you have described is, in fact, the consecration that all Saints must aspire to; some just don't realise it yet because they've found discipleship to be a comfortable fit so far. That won't last; it never does, often because the perception of comfort is based more on culture than on actual doctrine.

But you are up against people who have a vested interest in speaking against the message of Christ when it comes to these matters. They are prepared to argue that agency isn't real, that repentance isn't necessary, and that if there is a God, and if He's really merciful, He is prepared to save us in rather than from our sins. Never mind that the end result of such false messages is despair and, eventually, alienation from the abiding power of Christ.

You are likewise up against people who will attempt to use emotional blackmail against you by claiming, contrary to all data, that your defence of the message of Christ is the real source of despair and the cause of suffering.

The Book of Mormon accurately describes such messages as 'antichrist' because, well, they entirely eliminate Him, His atoning sacrifice, and His power and desire to redeem. They also destroy the divine agency that we fought for like lions before this life, and which was only secured 'by the blood of the Lamb'.

We hear echoes of the preaching of the Book of Mormon antichrists in this very thread:

• 'And many more such things did he say unto them, telling them that ... whatsoever a man did was no crime'.
• 'And he also testified unto the people that all mankind should be saved at the last day, and that they need not fear nor tremble, but that they might lift up their heads and rejoice; for the Lord had created all men, and had also redeemed all men; and, in the end, all men should have eternal life'.

As C.S. Lewis correctly noted, 'There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done", and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done"'.

Thank you for your insights! I'm grateful for the opportunity to have this conversation here because it's helped me solidify what I've come to understand. I'm still working on getting my thoughts across more concisely and I particularly admire that you seem to do that well. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

50 minutes ago, Gillebre said:

Thank you for your insights!

Thanks, mate.

Quote

I'm still working on getting my thoughts across more concisely ...

Don't worry about it. People who've experienced such things for themselves know exactly what you're talking about.

[california boy]

8 hours ago, smac97 said:

 

Same-sex marriage is the law of the land.  I disagree with it, but it's hardly worth spewing venom at those who support it.  
 

8 hours ago, smac97 said:

 

How this ends up being grounds to vilify the Church is beyond me.  And yet, you find a way.

Thanks,

-Smac

You accuse me of spewing venom and vilifying the Church.  What have I said that is not absolutely  true?  And if every word I said is true, then isn’t really the actions of the church what you consider to be vile?

[california boy]

8 hours ago, smac97 said:

 

Name just ONE thing the Church has done to encourage its members to commit fornication or adultery.

Thanks,

 

You wrote a lengthy post about  some gay couples not being in a monogamous marriage.  Do you think the Church expects those marriages to be monogamous?  Has the Church ever stated that?

Edited November 14, 2021 by california boy

[CV75]

5 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

If the Atonement is real, that still doesn't make the church's stance on LGBT lives real. Same-sex relationships could be intended as a good path intended for them to further understand Christ.

If they don't take the path of engaging in human love and commitment when they desire it and have the opportunity, they risk the experiences and lessons they could have before arriving at the bar of judgment.

Christ taught that now is the time, that this is the life for men to fashion His kingdom out of relationships. So, on the contrary, they could be risking alot by heeding your advice, as much as anyone else who neglects to heed the word of God.

Regarding the Atonement of Christ, He came into the world for this very purpose, and He came through the covenant union, or a marriage, between a Man and a woman. That is why I think that is the sole pattern for marriage. The life of discipleship is one of making and keeping each covenant in good faith, beginning with baptism and culminating in the temple.

Where everyone is born with a conscience (the Light of Christ), whatever they do that runs amiss of the perfection Christ invites us to, can be repented and healed of through His Atonement. I think most people act in good faith and express love the best or only way they know how, and Christ helps us find the way to perfecting that. This is repentance, where even willful rebellion aside, acting in good faith can be replaced with better and best faith

A person in a good-faith, same-sex relationship who recognizes the Gospel path will make the covenant of baptism, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and follow the example of Christ in all things, in good faith. The Church provides that path, not multiple paths that Christ did not lay out.

 

[Canadiandude]

Taking another break from this board.
 

The expectations for the various debaters just isn’t the same, and this disparity often seems drawn along the lines of whose positions are privileged here.

The problem is by no means unique to the board or orthodox members, yet I admittedly see more evidence of this warped sense of reciprocity among many within the broader church than its questioners. 

 

 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

5 hours ago, CV75 said:

He came through the covenant union

Um… 

Mary wasn’t married. And Christ’s teachings on marriage in heaven are pretty clear - (Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. “For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage). 

[kllindley]

12 hours ago, Gillebre said:

Thank you for your insights! I'm grateful for the opportunity to have this conversation here because it's helped me solidify what I've come to understand. I'm still working on getting my thoughts across more concisely and I particularly admire that you seem to do that well. 

You expressed yourself very well! I've largely given up sharing my experience. People like @kimpearson, @Meadowchik, and others are really good at dismissing our experiences as anomalies.  The grilling you got was interesting to me. If someone were to ask similar questions of an LGBT former/dissatisfied member, those questions would be attacked as unacceptable. 

I respect you for trying to share your experience. You are a great example!

[kllindley]

15 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

You're not in error. What you have described is, in fact, the consecration that all Saints must aspire to; some just don't realise it yet because they've found discipleship to be a comfortable fit so far. That won't last; it never does, often because the perception of comfort is based more on culture than on actual doctrine.

But you are up against people who have a vested interest in speaking against the message of Christ when it comes to these matters. They are prepared to argue that agency isn't real, that repentance isn't necessary, and that if there is a God, and if He's really merciful, He is prepared to save us in rather than from our sins. Never mind that the end result of such false messages is despair and, eventually, alienation from the abiding power of Christ.

You are likewise up against people who will attempt to use emotional blackmail against you by claiming, contrary to all data, that your defence of the message of Christ is the real source of despair and the cause of suffering.

The Book of Mormon accurately describes such messages as 'antichrist' because, well, they entirely eliminate Him, His atoning sacrifice, and His power and desire to redeem. They also destroy the divine agency that we fought for like lions before this life, and which was only secured 'by the blood of the Lamb'.

We hear echoes of the preaching of the Book of Mormon antichrists in this very thread:

• 'And many more such things did he say unto them, telling them that ... whatsoever a man did was no crime'.
• 'And he also testified unto the people that all mankind should be saved at the last day, and that they need not fear nor tremble, but that they might lift up their heads and rejoice; for the Lord had created all men, and had also redeemed all men; and, in the end, all men should have eternal life'.

As C.S. Lewis correctly noted, 'There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done", and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done"'.

Well put! That pretty perfectly describes my own conclusions after attempting for years to share my own experiences on this board.  The tolerance and love wins crowd apparently only believe in those values for people they agree with. 

[CV75]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Um… 

Mary wasn’t married. And Christ’s teachings on marriage in heaven are pretty clear - (Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. “For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage). 

What does "Um..." mean?

I'm not referring to Mary's espousal to Joseph under Mosaic law. I'm referring to Heavenly Father's relationship with Mary and identifying it as a covenant union between Him and Mary for the purpose of bringing the Only Begotten Son of God to earth in the meridian of time to carry out His atoning mission. Her reply to the angel (Luke 1:38) is her part in entering that covenant.

So we have a covenant union between a Man (God) and a woman (Mary) to bring forth the Son of God. This pattern of marriage is how God children's enter the second estate and become as He is. The union of Adam and Eve, the children of Abraham, and so forth into D&C 132 are all established through a covenant union between a man and a woman, which pattern is repeated in many ways.

If you are going to push back on this concept for my benefit, it would be best to consider Jesus' teachings on marriage in light of His example, including how He came into the world; His authorship of the law of Moses (as He intended it to be in its pre-apostate condition, of course); His authorship of the covenants established in the Garden of Eden; and, using latter-day revelation would help.

[Meadowchik]

8 hours ago, CV75 said:

Regarding the Atonement of Christ, He came into the world for this very purpose, and He came through the covenant union, or a marriage, between a Man and a woman. That is why I think that is the sole pattern for marriage. The life of discipleship is one of making and keeping each covenant in good faith, beginning with baptism and culminating in the temple.

Where everyone is born with a conscience (the Light of Christ), whatever they do that runs amiss of the perfection Christ invites us to, can be repented and healed of through His Atonement. I think most people act in good faith and express love the best or only way they know how, and Christ helps us find the way to perfecting that. This is repentance, where even willful rebellion aside, acting in good faith can be replaced with better and best faith

A person in a good-faith, same-sex relationship who recognizes the Gospel path will make the covenant of baptism, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and follow the example of Christ in all things, in good faith. The Church provides that path, not multiple paths that Christ did not lay out.

 

Your idea of His path is yours, others have sincere convictions, including spiritual experiences and scriptural understanding of Christ, which allow for same sex relationships.

[Meadowchik]

1 hour ago, kllindley said:

You expressed yourself very well! I've largely given up sharing my experience. People like @kimpearson, @Meadowchik, and others are really good at dismissing our experiences as anomalies.  The grilling you got was interesting to me. If someone were to ask similar questions of an LGBT former/dissatisfied member, those questions would be attacked as unacceptable. 

I respect you for trying to share your experience. You are a great example!

I didn't dismiss his experience at all. I pointed out of that it is his and not necessarily generalisable to others as he was trying to do. Such generalisations are the dismissive ones.

Edited November 14, 2021 by Meadowchik

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

Your idea of His path is yours, others have sincere convictions, including spiritual experiences and scriptural understanding of Christ, which allow for same sex relationships.

Of course they do; I am not suggesting they don't. I am sharing an idea that I believe some may not have heard of, or considered with an open mind, at least according to various reactions I've gotten on other threads!

I haven't heard a good explanation for same-sex marriage in the context of the Church's teachings. Moses 6: 63 seems to disallow it: all living things have their likeness, and also bear record of the Only Begotten Son. They were created physically before they were naturally upon the earth (Moses 3:5). Adam and Eve had their spiritual and natural likeness as man and woman, husband and wife with their attendant responsibility to multiply and replenish the earth. This bears record of how the Only Begotten Son came to earth (verses 54-62) as a child of an exalted Man and a mortal woman. Water, blood and the spirit all symbolize the process of spiritual, natural and redeemed, or eternal, creation and life.

On the other hand, we have seen wonderful explanations by a couple of posters wonderful descriptions of sincere convictions, including spiritual experiences and scriptural understanding of Christ, who otherwise would likely enter same sex relationships (by which term I assume you mean those committed relationships that include consensual physical intimacy and same-sex marriage).

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

I didn't dismiss his experience at all. I pointed out of that it is his and not necessarily generalisable to others as he was trying to do. Such generalisations are the dismissive ones.

No, once a good number of people agree upon and sustain the same general points, we have a generalized experience at the Church membership level. But these generalized experiences are dismissed too, when convenient to do so, and such attempts to do so with a "divide-and-conquer" rationale concerning some minor micro-point misrepresents the actual generalization.

Edited November 15, 2021 by CV75