What do you believe is the current narrative for most LGTBQ members of the Church?

[Chum]

11 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

Only when is there a marriage announcement or similar do I become “aware “ of the unacknowledged. Most of the rest stay in the closet so to speak and AFAIK are treated by myself and others in a normal manner. I

Those who stay in the closet are blessed with being treated by you in a normal manner.

Sounds like quite the bargain. Is there a long queue to get a piece of that?

[The Great Pretender]

On 11/24/2021 at 8:46 PM, CV75 said:

Yes, we do differ on the point that our attractions in and of themselves are sinful. I believe the enabling power of Christ helps us not to act on them in sinful ways. Neither is an attraction a passing thought, or a sinful thought that we entertain in a covetous way, though the enabling power of Christ helps us control our those also, or at least not act on them in sinful ways. There are many scriptures and Church talks that explain these principles.

The enabling power of Christ also helps with addiction. If you are suggesting attractions similarly require a multi-disciplinary approach to “breaking” them, how would the keys of revelation be used to uncover such approach, and what precedent raises this expectation?

Attractions may never leave us in this life, but our behavior can be managed and we can find strength, progress and even joy in the enabling power of Christ. Many can no longer bear being in the Church for any number of reasons, but many do hang on, and the emotional component of these decisions can be addressed through the Church’s emotional resilience module of the self-reliance resources.

Thank you for your thoughts. They reveal an important issue.

I have opinions on how painful it must be to give birth. I haven't ever given birth myself because I'm a man, but I've assisted my wife four times. Anecdotal evidence suggests that some women find the process more challenging than others. I could attempt to reassure a woman that it will be relatively painful but bearable. However, that is based simply on a multitude of assumptions.

I have also never smoked, and I would probably tell a new member all the things you have shared above. And they have a certain amount of merit.

The problem for me is that I increasingly see beyond the Disney-style conviction that attempts to convince us that God will answer all our sincerest prayers. It also seems to me that some individuals experience attractions (and other challenges) to varying degrees. One person may view an attractive individual, mentally acknowledge that they are easy on the eye, and move on. Another individual may try to do the same but find themselves returning repeatedly to the mental image of the person that registered so deeply in their consciousness.

The history of my Church membership until 2010 was one of absolute devotion and commitment. In my twenties in the temple, I made a covenant with God that I would forcibly push everything related to my unwanted side to the furthest recesses of my being. I drew upon prayer, service, and sacrifice for support. I wholeheartedly believed the scripture that God wouldn't allow me to be tried above my ability to endure. And I liked to think I was successful. I became a husband and father, sealed in the temple—a pillar of my ward and stake. And all the while the pressures of what I was pretending not to be were building in other areas of my life. Feelings of inner fraudulence spilled over into my professional life, and I became repeatedly ill with stress-related IBS (although I always worked through it).

And then in 2010, something snapped, and I burst into tears while chairing a technical teleconference for a multinational corporation with colleagues on the call from four countries. And then the floodgates burst open. I cried for about two days straight; constantly. My doctor gave me meds, but nothing helped. It took four months before I could return to work without unexpectedly crying at the simplest of things.

Fast-forward five years, and a Church email lands in my inbox telling me the Church has resources for those who experience differing attractions. Before then, all I knew were the messages of harrowing condemnation from apostles and prophets, saying that people like me were going straight to hell. I had refused to yield to temptation (to become the vile thing they spoke of), and the emotional consequences for someone in my circumstances and with my disposition nearly saw me take my life on several occasions (stopped only by thoughts of leaving my kids without a father—which served only to magnify my stresses).

I now feel angry that I have watched so many individuals leave the Church because they were unable to reconcile their attractions with their faith, and I felt critical of them because I felt they were weak or insufficiently committed. My closest friend is in the process of doing it right now. Married for 30 years with five kids—four of whom are returned missionaries. The Church has failed him. It has left him with nothing but guilt and unaddressed emptiness. He now wants nothing to do with me because he believes I am blinded by my faith in what he considers to be a church led by bigots.

What the Church is doing at the moment (telling people they are welcome—but essentially offering nothing to help address their religion-induced conflict) is not helping. It may work for those whose attractions are subtle. It doesn't work for those who feel strongly attracted. I'd say I'm maybe halfway along that spectrum, which might explain how I have managed to hang on for as long as I have.

I love the gospel, but no amount of prayer, service, loss of self, piety, devotion, spiritual acuity, worship, covenants, and willpower have been able to fix what is deeply broken. And I refuse to continue damaging myself emotionally by telling myself I can still resolve what is wrong by praying a little more fervently, reading the scriptures all night long, visiting the sick and afflicted instead of sleeping, and so on. There is a time when you have to accept that some things just are the way they are—and the best we can hope for is to diminish the unpleasantness in the least damaging ways we can find.

[The Great Pretender]

On 11/25/2021 at 1:56 AM, Gillebre said:

My formative experiences have been different from yours in many ways, and yet similar in others. If sustained devotion to the Savior through our covenants isn't the remedy then I can't imagine there will ever be any remedy at all.

What is lacking or missing from the covenants of the Restored Church that would give us the ability to access grace sufficient for our unwanted weaknesses? I believe that we have exactly what we need already revealed to us, but we can't buy into the deception that it's not possible (for then it truly becomes impossible as we have no faith).

I live as an example and witness that devotion and focus on the Savior can allow us to walk on the water, as it were, and give us the means to do what many believe is impossible: reconcile feelings of same-sex attraction with a life of valiance in the Gospel and Church of Jesus Christ. By intimate experience with the Savior's Atonement I can testify that there are blessings and endowments, held in reserve and tied to laws in Heaven, that can strengthen us to bear these especially frustrating and confusing burdens. There's no answer other than sustained agency used one day, one hour, or even one minute at a time to put Him first in our mind and heart.

I've read several of your posts since you joined us here and wondered if I should address you. I'm in my thirties and have spent many years wrestling with similar questions, pains, and challenges as you've described. I've been through what I once considered a most dreadful spiritual journey of constant backsliding incident to a regular addiction to pornography for over twenty years. Now I can only thank Him for showing me the way out of that darkness, and this so I can testify to others that they can enjoy the same peace that only comes from being one with Him.

I want you to know that I truly mourn and empathize with you. I don't know you personally, but as your brother I hope against hope that you can give place for my witness.

The placebo that you call devotion really is our part of the answer, and more specifically it's found in the Sacrament prayer. Specifically that as we strive to "always remember him and keep his commandments which he has given [us]; [then we] may always have his Spirit to be with [us]."

I promise you with tender feelings for the long time you've struggled and suffered, for I too have spent many years in the darkness of frustration and despair, that this small and simple prayer contains the seeds of the answer you seek: the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost.

Another part of the answer is found in redefining what our expectations should be. I haven't suddenly had my attractions to men vanish, but the Lord added something to me that I didn't have before: an attraction to His light that has greater allure and yields more tranquility than anything else in my life. Of course I use attraction in that sense with an eye towards the broader definition of pull or appeal.

Having drawn closer to Jesus Christ on a daily and sometimes hourly basis I'm more attracted to His light than I am to other men. He has become the center of my universe and as long as I strive to keep it that way, and it is exceedingly difficult (but not impossible), then I know I can rely on His grace through ongoing and effective prayer to help motivate and sustain my progress.

The pull of His light has an effect that I would liken to gravity: the closer you get to Him the more influence He has over you, and that influence enables you to more consistently choose not to entertain ideas that would take one away from Him. Although the attraction never has gone away it has taken a back seat to the real connection I'm developing with the Savior which then supercedes everything else. 

I tend to ramble in my replies so I'll stop here except to bear my testimony, and again I ask that you leave room to trust me.

I know with a perfect knowledge that the lasting peace we seek can only be received by living inside our covenants with the Savior (especially those made in the Temple). His grace flows more freely to us through our covenants, but only if that is our true focus. When our hearts are upon our covenants they become our treasure on earth and in heaven. My greatest obstacle was in coming to believe Christ's own testimony about His power to save. 

Perhaps Satan's most effective lie amongst the Saints is that we can't really be perfected by Christ or experience lasting change by virtue of His atoning blood. We're too far gone, we've screwed up and failed one too many times. The Church just doesn't offer a perfect solution which can enable me to deal with my unwanted feelings.

Ether 12:27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

I plead with you to believe Him when He says He really can make you whole. I also plead with you to remember the pattern He gave us in Mosiah 24:14 where Alma and his people didn't have their afflictions suddenly lifted once they were "good enough" and instead had to live in their covenants with the Lord for both relief and strength to live valiantly.

14 And I will also ease the burdens which are put upon your shoulders, that even you cannot feel them upon your backs, even while you are in bondage; and this will I do that ye may stand as witnesses for me hereafter, and that ye may know of a surety that I, the Lord God, do visit my people in their afflictions.

I don't know you personally, but I love you dearly and hope you remain with us. We are here for you. Your Savior will not leave you comfortless.

I went on longer than I intended, but I have shared the words and witness He gave me.

With love,

Your brother

 

Buddy, I accept everything you have to say in the spirit it was meant.

You're in your thirties, right? Well, in my teens, twenties, thirties, and forties, I was emotionally and faithfully resilient enough to eschew absolutely everything that I feared would point me in the wrong direction (towards the thing I refused even to name to myself because I was so repulsed by it). When I was 18 and my stake president asked me in my mission-application interview if I masturbated, he then had to explain it to me because I didn't even know such a thing was possible. Honestly. No word of a lie. I have NEVER viewed porn. I have never smoked, never drunk, never taken drugs. I never did anything to cultivate or accommodate my darker side. And then, BOOM, at the age of 46 my life fell apart emotionally on account of decades of falsifying who I was.

Personally, I believe God gives us agency and lets us get on with life to learn from experience (rather than to diminish all our challenges simply because we ask for them to be taken away). I don't believe it is possible to pray the gay away. What I do believe is possible, however, is to support conflicted individuals in their various challenges.

I have attempted to offer support and find it for myself by associating online with individuals in the North Star LDS groups. Almost without exception, the subscribers there believe God made them gay, trans, asexual, or whatever. I believe that is heresy. It gives people a get-out clause where they can blame their eventual capitulation on God for making them that way.

The supportive group I created in the UK fizzled out to nothing because the others were either too gay (and gave up) or weren't gay enough (and felt no need to support either themselves or others).

Since I am fiercely self-reliant, I refuse to give up without a fight. If the Church won't facilitate the means for individuals with differing attractions to meet their emotional needs, I will find ways to do that myself. And I accept that I put myself at risk by so doing—which is why I keep my wife largely appraised of my actions. She knows I am a member of North Star. She knows I host a Church-oriented website for individuals with differing attractions. She knows I created a local men's walk and talk group during lockdown. She knows I attend a weekly LGBT sports club. She doesn't yet know that I have just joined a nationwide group for gay, bi, and trans men who hike, cycle, climb, and so forth in various locations throughout the year.

If you are of the opinion that it is counterproductive to put oneself in the path of the very thing one is trying to avoid, I'll be happy to explain the logic. Or you can read a fascinating book by Tim Timmerman: A Bigger World Yet; Faith, Brotherhood, and Same-Sex Needs.

 

[Teancum]

17 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

No, you do not know what lies in the hearts of those deeply committed to following the spirit.

Nor do you.  We only know what is in our own hearts. Yet the LDS members, leaders, scripture, etc make literal truth claims.  And none of the leaders I know of teach the way to "truth" the way you do.  I am not the one making the claims. I do not claim there is one truth, a best truth, etc.  You even seem to claim the latter. I don't think there is such a thing. I think what we seek and test is based on human constructs and different ones that people make work for them. 

17 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

There is one funalmentalist gospel for children which some take into adulthood, and others who have come to the same conclusions I have. Professors Paulsen and Givens, Ostler, Mason, Faulconer and many many others would parallel my opinions. There are General Authorities whose messages parallel these ideas.  President Kimball did a talk on Absolute Truth which was brilliant.

I recall the Kimball talk you shared. It was pretty good. I am not a fan of Given or Ostller.  They, sort of like you, have created this nuanced gospel or approach to the LDS paradigm that simply is not what the LDS church teaches.

17 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

You are looking at the wrong sources.

Why would you want to emulate the lowest common denominator in all religions?

 

I am not sure what the lowest common demotivator you refer to is and what sources should I be  looking at.

[Teancum]

17 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

You don't find your purpose in life through empirical testing, unless it is by testing paths, and then still pursuing your heart.

Well sort of. I can test and try various paths. If a path is not satisfying I can try another.

17 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Ever been in love? Same thing 

Again sort of. But I have in real time experiences with the person I love. I can get to know them, talk to them, be physical with them, build a life with them, work through difficulties all in the physical world.  

[Teancum]

17 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Nope.

Your position seems to be one self contradiction after another.

You say this but you don't show why. I have explained now a number of times I do not make the claim that there is one best truth.  Not one whit.  How is this a contradiction?

17 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

There's no "position" to understand.

State one and we can discuss its alleged "truth" and how to justify it as "rational".

There is not one best truth.  

[Teancum]

17 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

The beliefs of millions who have found it and affirm its truth.

 

And millions have found a contradictory truth.  Billions in fact.  Muslims do not believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God. Is their truth and good then? 

17 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Here you again are self-contradaictory.

How so?

17 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

As I have said a hundred times to you there are many paths that lead to Christ, but eventually "every knee shall bow".  Every spiritual advance by anyone in any religion leads to Christ as all will know when we see Him face to face, instead of through a dark mirror 

You say I am self contradictory but here you are claiming one spiritual truth.  All roads lead to Jesus Christ. And you wonder why what you say is hard to follow.

[Gillebre]

35 minutes ago, The Great Pretender said:

Buddy, I accept everything you have to say in the spirit it was meant.

You're in your thirties, right? Well, in my teens, twenties, thirties, and forties, I was emotionally and faithfully resilient enough to eschew absolutely everything that I feared would point me in the wrong direction (towards the thing I refused even to name to myself because I was so repulsed by it). When I was 18 and my stake president asked me in my mission-application interview if I masturbated, he then had to explain it to me because I didn't even know such a thing was possible. Honestly. No word of a lie. I have NEVER viewed porn. I have never smoked, never drunk, never taken drugs. I never did anything to cultivate or accommodate my darker side. And then, BOOM, at the age of 46 my life fell apart emotionally on account of decades of falsifying who I was.

Personally, I believe God gives us agency and lets us get on with life to learn from experience (rather than to diminish all our challenges simply because we ask for them to be taken away). I don't believe it is possible to pray the gay away. What I do believe is possible, however, is to support conflicted individuals in their various challenges.

I have attempted to offer support and find it for myself by associating online with individuals in the North Star LDS groups. Almost without exception, the subscribers there believe God made them gay, trans, asexual, or whatever. I believe that is heresy. It gives people a get-out clause where they can blame their eventual capitulation on God for making them that way.

The supportive group I created in the UK fizzled out to nothing because the others were either too gay (and gave up) or weren't gay enough (and felt no need to support either themselves or others).

Since I am fiercely self-reliant, I refuse to give up without a fight. If the Church won't facilitate the means for individuals with differing attractions to meet their emotional needs, I will find ways to do that myself. And I accept that I put myself at risk by so doing—which is why I keep my wife largely appraised of my actions. She knows I am a member of North Star. She knows I host a Church-oriented website for individuals with differing attractions. She knows I created a local men's walk and talk group during lockdown. She knows I attend a weekly LGBT sports club. She doesn't yet know that I have just joined a nationwide group for gay, bi, and trans men who hike, cycle, climb, and so forth in various locations throughout the year.

If you are of the opinion that it is counterproductive to put oneself in the path of the very thing one is trying to avoid, I'll be happy to explain the logic. Or you can read a fascinating book by Tim Timmerman: A Bigger World Yet; Faith, Brotherhood, and Same-Sex Needs.

 

I think if you're being led by the Spirit to keep your baptismal covenants then you should definitely continue to heed His voice in how you minister to your brothers and sisters. There is no more holy course than to watch over the wandering and lost. I've also been part of North Star for a long time and believe in what it's trying to accomplish.

I very much appreciate your drive and desire to lift as many souls as possible. I too share that motivating  feeling, and it's been difficult because the philosophies of men have become so ingrained and widely accepted.

Satan has done a careful job of adapting one of his most readily accepted half-truths ever: I shouldn't seek any change because that would deny how the Lord made me to be. Other variations on this idea exist, but getting people to the point of understanding that there aren't multiple covenant paths for different experiences of life has been difficult.

As a fellow Saint striving to receive all of the blessings available to us I appreciate your steadfastness over many years. Part of my personal mission is to help others who are attracted like me to understand that the covenant path is exactly what we need, and that there isn't any other name or path given whereby we can be sustained and raised up by God throughout our mortal journey that leads to eternal life.

Our experiences take us to different places, and while I haven't ended up outside the Church, I can say that I long wished that I could have separated myself. I once wished with all my heart that I could find fulfillment and peace in living how I felt I should in tandem with my feelings.

At 15 years old the Holy Ghost made me to know that the Lord really lived and that He had a plan for me. I've tested Him many times only to find out that there really is no happiness or stability for me personally anywhere outside of His Restored Gospel. He knows that I know, and I cannot deny it. That sacred knowledge has torn me apart as I nevertheless tried to live a lukewarm life with one foot in Zion and another in Babylon.

Just this year the Lord has brought all the pieces of the puzzle together. I'm engaged to be married to a woman of God who has known my struggle from the beginning of our relationship years ago, but has chosen to partner with me for eternity anyway. We have both received a witness that nothing is too hard for the Lord, and that as we put Him first and communicate openly with charity and meekness then He will sanctify us. I've spent time every week since August in the Temple seeking further light to confirm that we were on the right path and that He would help redirect me if we should go astray, and He has blessed our engagement. This is what we've felt is right for us.

I'm grateful to have you on the Lord's side. We need your experience, compassion, and your vision of His love for others. While I can't say I completely agree with your assessment of the Church's efforts, I know that as you let Him guide you to those in need you will continue to be a ministering angel in His service to many people. Thank you for your example!

[CV75]

2 hours ago, The Great Pretender said:

Thank you for your thoughts. They reveal an important issue.

I have opinions on how painful it must be to give birth. I haven't ever given birth myself because I'm a man, but I've assisted my wife four times. Anecdotal evidence suggests that some women find the process more challenging than others. I could attempt to reassure a woman that it will be relatively painful but bearable. However, that is based simply on a multitude of assumptions.

I have also never smoked, and I would probably tell a new member all the things you have shared above. And they have a certain amount of merit.

The problem for me is that I increasingly see beyond the Disney-style conviction that attempts to convince us that God will answer all our sincerest prayers. It also seems to me that some individuals experience attractions (and other challenges) to varying degrees. One person may view an attractive individual, mentally acknowledge that they are easy on the eye, and move on. Another individual may try to do the same but find themselves returning repeatedly to the mental image of the person that registered so deeply in their consciousness.

The history of my Church membership until 2010 was one of absolute devotion and commitment. In my twenties in the temple, I made a covenant with God that I would forcibly push everything related to my unwanted side to the furthest recesses of my being. I drew upon prayer, service, and sacrifice for support. I wholeheartedly believed the scripture that God wouldn't allow me to be tried above my ability to endure. And I liked to think I was successful. I became a husband and father, sealed in the temple—a pillar of my ward and stake. And all the while the pressures of what I was pretending not to be were building in other areas of my life. Feelings of inner fraudulence spilled over into my professional life, and I became repeatedly ill with stress-related IBS (although I always worked through it).

And then in 2010, something snapped, and I burst into tears while chairing a technical teleconference for a multinational corporation with colleagues on the call from four countries. And then the floodgates burst open. I cried for about two days straight; constantly. My doctor gave me meds, but nothing helped. It took four months before I could return to work without unexpectedly crying at the simplest of things.

Fast-forward five years, and a Church email lands in my inbox telling me the Church has resources for those who experience differing attractions. Before then, all I knew were the messages of harrowing condemnation from apostles and prophets, saying that people like me were going straight to hell. I had refused to yield to temptation (to become the vile thing they spoke of), and the emotional consequences for someone in my circumstances and with my disposition nearly saw me take my life on several occasions (stopped only by thoughts of leaving my kids without a father—which served only to magnify my stresses).

I now feel angry that I have watched so many individuals leave the Church because they were unable to reconcile their attractions with their faith, and I felt critical of them because I felt they were weak or insufficiently committed. My closest friend is in the process of doing it right now. Married for 30 years with five kids—four of whom are returned missionaries. The Church has failed him. It has left him with nothing but guilt and unaddressed emptiness. He now wants nothing to do with me because he believes I am blinded by my faith in what he considers to be a church led by bigots.

What the Church is doing at the moment (telling people they are welcome—but essentially offering nothing to help address their religion-induced conflict) is not helping. It may work for those whose attractions are subtle. It doesn't work for those who feel strongly attracted. I'd say I'm maybe halfway along that spectrum, which might explain how I have managed to hang on for as long as I have.

I love the gospel, but no amount of prayer, service, loss of self, piety, devotion, spiritual acuity, worship, covenants, and willpower have been able to fix what is deeply broken. And I refuse to continue damaging myself emotionally by telling myself I can still resolve what is wrong by praying a little more fervently, reading the scriptures all night long, visiting the sick and afflicted instead of sleeping, and so on. There is a time when you have to accept that some things just are the way they are—and the best we can hope for is to diminish the unpleasantness in the least damaging ways we can find.

Sometimes God answers our sincerest prayers with, “Not yet” and this, I believe, is intended to maintain the crucible that helps us seek and cultivate the companionship of the Holy Ghost so that anger, shame, fear, frustration, contention, etc., and the hurtful ways these are expressed, are washed away. We all have that gift and this is what we need to become like Christ, no matter our experience in life.

Everyone has things they don’t like about themselves, but this is often based on a misunderstanding of doctrine (e.g., attraction is a sin). A worse misunderstanding is to conflate this with not liking themselves. The Church can help with the first, but is not designed to help people like themselves beyond granting people the gift of the Holy Ghost and teaching them how to use it (this is a fundamental principle in the self-reliance and emotional self-reliance courses).

I’ll suggest that the anger and shame you describe carrying with you by believing that attraction is a sin is a signal that you need to the companionship of the Holy Ghost. This is not a condemnation of you personally, but an invitation to feel the grace of the Lord. Church members believe and conclude all sorts of erroneous things, but as long as they have matched covenant-keeping with a sense of spiritual “happiness, peace and rest” – or at least enough of it, and more this year/decade than the last – they will yet obtain a fulness.

[Fether]

10 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Yeah well. If you really must know I didn't go to the prom. I wasn't one of the beautiful people. I pumped gas into the cars of the people going to the prom. I can't have children. They called me the Virgin because I don't commit adultry. I was sexually assaulted by an LGBTQ when I was about 10 years old and they won't give me a TR because my sin is nicotine. I don't advertise the fact the we had sex over 7300 times during the first 10 years of our marriage. 

Your either missing my point entirely, or ignoring it because your too prideful to admit I make an excellent point.

If someone comes up to me and says “don’t you just hate having periods!?”. They are not saying I am a girl, but their statement implies they think I’m a girl. I can then either go along with it and say “Ya! Bleeding out your vagina is the worst! And the crane stink!”, keep quiet and let her continue to just assume I’m a girl, or I can come out and say “I’m actually a boy, I don’t have those.

I would argue 99% or the world would take that third course of action.

With homosexuals, we are effectively doing this same thing when we ask what temple they want to be married in, if they have a crush on anyone of the opposite gender, if they are a boob or a Butt guy, talk about cute girls with them, or talk about viewing pornography at church. The list goes on. We are constantly making all sorts of assumptions when we talk to others 

Edited November 26, 2021 by Fether

[The Great Pretender]

1 hour ago, Gillebre said:

I think if you're being led by the Spirit to keep your baptismal covenants then you should definitely continue to heed His voice in how you minister to your brothers and sisters. There is no more holy course than to watch over the wandering and lost. I've also been part of North Star for a long time and believe in what it's trying to accomplish.

I very much appreciate your drive and desire to lift as many souls as possible. I too share that motivating  feeling, and it's been difficult because the philosophies of men have become so ingrained and widely accepted.

Satan has done a careful job of adapting one of his most readily accepted half-truths ever: I shouldn't seek any change because that would deny how the Lord made me to be. Other variations on this idea exist, but getting people to the point of understanding that there aren't multiple covenant paths for different experiences of life has been difficult.

As a fellow Saint striving to receive all of the blessings available to us I appreciate your steadfastness over many years. Part of my personal mission is to help others who are attracted like me to understand that the covenant path is exactly what we need, and that there isn't any other name or path given whereby we can be sustained and raised up by God throughout our mortal journey that leads to eternal life.

Our experiences take us to different places, and while I haven't ended up outside the Church, I can say that I long wished that I could have separated myself. I once wished with all my heart that I could find fulfillment and peace in living how I felt I should in tandem with my feelings.

At 15 years old the Holy Ghost made me to know that the Lord really lived and that He had a plan for me. I've tested Him many times only to find out that there really is no happiness or stability for me personally anywhere outside of His Restored Gospel. He knows that I know, and I cannot deny it. That sacred knowledge has torn me apart as I nevertheless tried to live a lukewarm life with one foot in Zion and another in Babylon.

Just this year the Lord has brought all the pieces of the puzzle together. I'm engaged to be married to a woman of God who has known my struggle from the beginning of our relationship years ago, but has chosen to partner with me for eternity anyway. We have both received a witness that nothing is too hard for the Lord, and that as we put Him first and communicate openly with charity and meekness then He will sanctify us. I've spent time every week since August in the Temple seeking further light to confirm that we were on the right path and that He would help redirect me if we should go astray, and He has blessed our engagement. This is what we've felt is right for us.

I'm grateful to have you on the Lord's side. We need your experience, compassion, and your vision of His love for others. While I can't say I completely agree with your assessment of the Church's efforts, I know that as you let Him guide you to those in need you will continue to be a ministering angel in His service to many people. Thank you for your example!

I'm delighted to hear you are engaged. I wouldn't trade my wife and children for anything, but that doesn't take away the other emptiness.

I am a member of the main North Star FB group (as is my wife), but neither of us ever posts there. I am also a member of the men's group, but there are many in that group who have wildly differing concepts of what it means to strive to remain on the covenant path. You must have noticed that. Consequently, I keep my comments mostly to the married men's group. The difference is considerable. We each have more in common because we have made further commitments and covenants. You'll discover that if you join that group at some point. Even so, there are men who leave that group because they can't bear trying to keep up appearances when their life looks entirely different from what they know it should.

After Hamba Tuhan posted a reply to me in this group that supports my conviction that homosexuality isn't innate, I posted his comments (without disclosing identifying information) to the North Star married men's group. A few agreed with me and his comments while one particular guy expressed is opinion that he is eternally gay. Wait, what?

One guy said it didn't matter either way. My response was forthright but rather long. If it is of interest, I'll send it to you privately.

[The Great Pretender]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Sometimes God answers our sincerest prayers with, “Not yet” and this, I believe, is intended to maintain the crucible that helps us seek and cultivate the companionship of the Holy Ghost so that anger, shame, fear, frustration, contention, etc., and the hurtful ways these are expressed, are washed away. We all have that gift and this is what we need to become like Christ, no matter our experience in life.

Everyone has things they don’t like about themselves, but this is often based on a misunderstanding of doctrine (e.g., attraction is a sin). A worse misunderstanding is to conflate this with not liking themselves. The Church can help with the first, but is not designed to help people like themselves beyond granting people the gift of the Holy Ghost and teaching them how to use it (this is a fundamental principle in the self-reliance and emotional self-reliance courses).

I’ll suggest that the anger and shame you describe carrying with you by believing that attraction is a sin is a signal that you need to the companionship of the Holy Ghost. This is not a condemnation of you personally, but an invitation to feel the grace of the Lord. Church members believe and conclude all sorts of erroneous things, but as long as they have matched covenant-keeping with a sense of spiritual “happiness, peace and rest” – or at least enough of it, and more this year/decade than the last – they will yet obtain a fulness.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, I know all the gospel teachings. I have already stated that I was baptised 50 years ago and have always been active, have been endowed and temple recommend holding for 40 years, have served for decades in positions of priesthood leadership. I have also seen cancer victims die in spite of the much praying and fasting of faith-filled members; prayers for which "Not yet" is meaningless.

I applaud your devotion, and I have similarly expressed devotion in the past to others.

I am one of the fortunate ones. I have a testimony that has been forged in the fires of longevity and no small amount of persecution.

Countless others are less fortunate. New converts who come into the Church having already accepted themselves as having one challenging identity or another stand almost no chance of becoming fully converted to the gospel because, sooner or later, they realise they don't want to live like a hermit or a monk, and they don't think they should be told to.

The Church invites all to come unto Christ, but when they enter through the waters of baptism, the Church hopes everyone will leave certain parts behind that are inextricably bound to what makes them who they have become.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

Well sort of. I can test and try various paths. If a path is not satisfying I can try another.

And what empirical evidence do you have that it is SATISFYING??

THIS IS THE ENTIRE POINT OF ALL OUR DISCUSSIONS 

In this context where there is no traditional  empirical evidence, "SATISFYING " becomes "true", subjectively true.

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Teancum said:

And millions have found a contradictory truth.  Billions in fact.  Muslims do not believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God. Is their truth and good then? 

of course, all are stepping stones

4 hours ago, Teancum said:

You say I am self contradictory but here you are claiming one spiritual truth.  All roads lead to Jesus Christ. And you wonder why what you say is hard to follow.

Now we do the best we can, but then we will see face to face.

There is not one path, but all roads lead one place, to the Inventor of religion and all the paths.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, The Great Pretender said:

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, I know all the gospel teachings. I have already stated that I was baptised 50 years ago and have always been active, have been endowed and temple recommend holding for 40 years, have served for decades in positions of priesthood leadership. I have also seen cancer victims die in spite of the much praying and fasting of faith-filled members; prayers for which "Not yet" is meaningless.

I applaud your devotion, and I have similarly expressed devotion in the past to others.

I am one of the fortunate ones. I have a testimony that has been forged in the fires of longevity and no small amount of persecution.

Countless others are less fortunate. New converts who come into the Church having already accepted themselves as having one challenging identity or another stand almost no chance of becoming fully converted to the gospel because, sooner or later, they realise they don't want to live like a hermit or a monk, and they don't think they should be told to.

The Church invites all to come unto Christ, but when they enter through the waters of baptism, the Church hopes everyone will leave certain parts behind that are inextricably bound to what makes them who they have become.

You apparently consider yourself fully converted to the gospel, yet have a very ingrained belief that attraction is sin. This would impede your understanding of what it takes to become fully converted (though you may well be converted). Both affect how you perceive and feel for others and their conversion, i.e., how you minister to them. I understand that some conclude that they are being “told” to live like a hermit or a monk, which conclusion arises from a place of frustration, not conversion. So, while potentially mutually supportive, understanding and conversion are obviously not synonymous.

I would say that a more helpful view is that the Church invites all to come unto Christ, and when they enter through the waters of baptism, hopes everyone will understand that they are inextricably bound to Christ, who makes them who they are to become. And more than having hope, the Church also extends many resources, not the least of which is the gift of the Holy Ghost and how to use it, and does whatever it can to help people along this path.

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, The Great Pretender said:

The Church invites all to come unto Christ, but when they enter through the waters of baptism, the Church hopes everyone will leave certain parts behind that are inextricably bound to what makes them who they have become.

Yes, it is called "repentance"

The presumptions are that if one cannot follow the precepts of the church, we should not join.

Yet our temptations come with us and we all live with them. One can have horrible temptations and thoughts even as a heterosexual, and still not act on them

It is a path for those who want to OVERCOME the world, as the savior did.

Edited November 26, 2021 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I have also seen cancer victims die in spite of the much praying and fasting of faith-filled members; prayers for which "Not yet" is meaningless.

ERROR, THIS QUOTE WAS FROM GREAT PRETENDER NOT @CV75

 

And I have seen them cured.

And I have been inspired to bless others to be released from this life, after the interpretation was "not yet" when it was time to go.

"Not yet" can be an invitation to a new life on the other side when one's work is done, or an invitation to remain and work on further repentance.

Either way, it is not " meaningless".

Edited November 26, 2021 by mfbukowski

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

of course, all are stepping stones

Now we do the best we can, but then we will see face to face.

There is not one path, but all roads lead one place, to the Inventor of religion and all the paths.

So all realities and truths lead to the one you have concluded is the best one, at least in the long run?

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

So all realities and truths lead to the one you have concluded is the best one, at least in the long run?

There you go. No.

That is MY MY PARADIGM.

Because I am psychologically certain of it, I CALL it "true".  Similar to a courtroom judge who creates "facts".

That is my POSITION which guides my life.  All I say represents that. I take that on faith, which you apparently disavow as not valid, due to your positivism, as YOUR psychological certainty and faith.

Mine is consistent, because I see it as a psychological inclination, POSSIBLY, while you believe that "facts correspond to reality" which makes them "true", requiring your view of "valid evidence" which comes down to "being satisfied" with the results, a contradictory assertion.

Edited November 26, 2021 by mfbukowski

[The Great Pretender]

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

You apparently consider yourself fully converted to the gospel, yet have a very ingrained belief that attraction is sin. This would impede your understanding of what it takes to become fully converted (though you may well be converted). Both affect how you perceive and feel for others and their conversion, i.e., how you minister to them. I understand that some conclude that they are being “told” to live like a hermit or a monk, which conclusion arises from a place of frustration, not conversion. So, while potentially mutually supportive, understanding and conversion are obviously not synonymous.

I would say that a more helpful view is that the Church invites all to come unto Christ, and when they enter through the waters of baptism, hopes everyone will understand that they are inextricably bound to Christ, who makes them who they are to become. And more than having hope, the Church also extends many resources, not the least of which is the gift of the Holy Ghost and how to use it, and does whatever it can to help people along this path.

Prominent Church leaders told the membership in no uncertain terms for decades that anything homosexual related came directly from Satan. There was never any differentiation between attractions and actions. Decades later when my emotional damage was already well ingrained, the surviving leadership changed the message to make it more socially acceptable (and less likely to find the Church being sued or vilified). You bet I am unable to view my attractions as anything but sinful. That's how I was raised in a Church society. It would be like the prophet suddenly announcing that holding a lit cigarette in your mouth isn't against the Word of Wisdom as long as you don't inhale. 

Pardon me for being unable to change the effects of my indoctrination. There is nothing inert or harmless about my attractions. They eat away at me and visit me in my dreams when I have no say in the matter.

But you go right ahead and tell me how my experience should play out. 

[The Great Pretender]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Yes, it is called "repentance"

The presumptions are that if one cannot follow the precepts of the church, we should not join.

Yet our temptations come with us and we all live with them. One can have horrible temptations and thoughts even as a heterosexual, and still not act on them

It is a path for those who want to OVERCOME the world, as the savior did.

I have literally just rolled my eyes. You are so far from understanding that you do yourself a disservice by responding.

[mfbukowski]

25 minutes ago, The Great Pretender said:

I have literally just rolled my eyes. You are so far from understanding that you do yourself a disservice by responding.

Thanks for your correction

I understand the real YOU much better, pretender. But I am likely to continue responding, so teach me. 

 

 

Edited November 26, 2021 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

38 minutes ago, The Great Pretender said:

Pardon me for being unable to change the effects of my indoctrination. There is nothing inert or harmless about my attractions. They eat away at me and visit me in my dreams when I have no say in the matter.

But you go right ahead and tell me how my experience should play out. 

Why are you here at all?

We cannot remove your trauma. The GA's did not intend to harm you.

You don't need to respond of course, I don't expect you to do so.

[CV75]

58 minutes ago, The Great Pretender said:

Prominent Church leaders told the membership in no uncertain terms for decades that anything homosexual related came directly from Satan. There was never any differentiation between attractions and actions. Decades later when my emotional damage was already well ingrained, the surviving leadership changed the message to make it more socially acceptable (and less likely to find the Church being sued or vilified). You bet I am unable to view my attractions as anything but sinful. That's how I was raised in a Church society. It would be like the prophet suddenly announcing that holding a lit cigarette in your mouth isn't against the Word of Wisdom as long as you don't inhale. 

Pardon me for being unable to change the effects of my indoctrination. There is nothing inert or harmless about my attractions. They eat away at me and visit me in my dreams when I have no say in the matter.

But you go right ahead and tell me how my experience should play out. 

As I said, it doesn’t matter what people believe as long as they act in good faith and receive the companionship of the Holy Ghost. Each generation has its own language and context as well, so the messages (both transmitted, received and conveyed) change accordingly. And a prophet saying something like that (but what is the social context?) would still be technically correct in a society that “indoctrinated” people to put lit cigarettes in their mouth. In our case, society is “indoctrinating” people to identify themselves by their sexual orientation, so the finer point has to be made.

There are many ways to reduce negative effects of indoctrination. This is an individual, one-on-one process, whether it is approached spiritually or clinically. The choice of application is up to the sufferer.

Which leads to the idea that ministering on the finer points is best conducted one-on-one, and not in the group venues you’ve been describing. Support, activist and other groups can offer only so much, which is why you’ve seen them fail: the individual becomes invisible, either by choice or by absorption into an identity that doesn’t fully, specifically acknowledge their own. The Church offers what it does as well, which is only so much when the ingredient of one-on-one ministering is absent.

Most members have people in their lives that need one-on-one ministering. Are people who can help suffering LGBTQ+ members spiritually unprepared or unwilling to help them? Probably. Are the LGBTQ+ people with problems likewise negligent in maintaining their spiritual power or willingness to get help? Probably. We have been warned, most recently by our current prophet, not to act this way but to step up, individually. The collective impact of this is miraculous.

I think you can now skip your next Elders Quorum meeting!

[The Great Pretender]

42 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Why are you here at all?

We cannot remove your trauma. The GA's did not intend to harm you.

You don't need to respond of course, I don't expect you to do so.

I stumbled upon the OP's thread and felt I could offer some insight into how the Church's position on LGBT issues is not all it seems from an "outsider's" perspective. You are welcome to continue attempting to invalidate my considerable lived experiences if it makes you feel more secure.

In some respects, I am playing devil's advocate because I live on both sides of the divide. I am straight-acting and not "out" to my wider family, my church community, or my broader community. My parents lived and died having no idea.