What do you believe is the current narrative for most LGTBQ members of the Church?

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I will be blunt.

The problem here is that you persist in believing there IS such a thing as ONE TRUTH, when there is not.

 

No that is incorrect. It is the  LDS Church and the majority of their believing adherents who claim this as well as true believers on other religions.

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

 

 

Science itself is based on trusting a theory until a better one that works as a "better explanation" / paradigm comes around.

Yes.  With empirical testing.

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

You have NO evidence of this odd notion of ONE TRUTH based on empiricism.

But as noted above I don't think there is one truth.  

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

From my view you believe in a strange metaphysical world that cannot be experienced by humans, some Ideal One Truth For All.

Your world of naive realism takes more faith than I can muster to believe in.

And yours of metaphysical experience takes more faith than I can muster.

But as I have told you, I am ok with living my reality and letting you live yours.  My truth is as good as anyone's is it not?

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

There is literally no evidence for your belief in such a world, as has been shown by 2500 years of failed Western philosophy.

Again I don't believe there is one truth.

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

And Moroni 10 speaks of a truth that is MANIFESTED, not "proven"

THAT is your error.

Your "manifested" truth is different from mine, quite clearly.

Yep.

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

My approach is "finding my own testimony" for all truth, which is what Moroni says.

"Ask God, and He will manifest the truth" is what it says.  What we CONSIDER what that word  "manifest" means is the issue.  We all have different "manifestations" due to our different abilities, cultures, talents, etc. etc.

And even relative truth itself is only relatively "true". 

Your position is more faith based than mine. 

It appears you do not really understand my position.

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Poof.

One world in which everyone agrees on every "truth".  

Best wishes on finding it on this side of the Veil. 

THAT is my Truth. NOW "through a glass darkly,", THEN "face to face".

Find your OWN testimony.  That is the gospel of Jesus Christ.

But who and what defines the gospel of Jesus Christ? And what of those whose religious truth precludes Jesus Christ?

 

[CV75]

1 hour ago, The Great Pretender said:

With respect, I suggest this is untrue for anyone with differing sexual attractions. I can only speak for myself, of course. I've done all that, and I've felt my attractions strongly, even while serving in the temple. And to say that the attractions aren't sinful is hogwash.

Attractions have a lot in common with addiction (even though there are clear differences). And maintaining spiritual fortitude alone will not cure addiction.

While serving a mission, I repeatedly pleaded with the Lord to remove my attractions to help me serve most effectively. I was a diligent missionary who immersed himself in his missionary efforts. My attractions never left me. You are free to suggest or imply that I am mistaken or even lying, but my experience is common to all those people who find they can no longer bear being in the Church. Telling us we are wrong solves nothing. That's what makes me so angry. I'm trying to hang on to my faith, but there's nothing to temper the hidden distress. No remedies. And devotion isn't a remedy. At best, it is a placebo.

Yes, we do differ on the point that our attractions in and of themselves are sinful. I believe the enabling power of Christ helps us not to act on them in sinful ways. Neither is an attraction a passing thought, or a sinful thought that we entertain in a covetous way, though the enabling power of Christ helps us control our those also, or at least not act on them in sinful ways. There are many scriptures and Church talks that explain these principles.

The enabling power of Christ also helps with addiction. If you are suggesting attractions similarly require a multi-disciplinary approach to “breaking” them, how would the keys of revelation be used to uncover such approach, and what precedent raises this expectation?

Attractions may never leave us in this life, but our behavior can be managed and we can find strength, progress and even joy in the enabling power of Christ. Many can no longer bear being in the Church for any number of reasons, but many do hang on, and the emotional component of these decisions can be addressed through the Church’s emotional resilience module of the self-reliance resources.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

No that is incorrect. It is the  LDS Church and the majority of their believing adherents who claim this as well as true believers on other religions.

Yes.  With empirical testing.

But as noted above I don't think there is one truth.  

And yours of metaphysical experience takes more faith than I can muster.

But as I have told you, I am ok with living my reality and letting you live yours.  My truth is as good as anyone's is it not?

Again I don't believe there is one truth.

Yep.

It appears you do not really understand my position.

But who and what defines the gospel of Jesus Christ? And what of those whose religious truth precludes Jesus Christ?

 

No communication 

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

No communication 

Whatever.  I try. But you are distorting my position.

Tell you what. Find me one LDS leader who teaches and defines truth as you do. Then maybe your approach to truth will have some meaning in the LDS realm of things.

By the way I cannot see your comment to me on the raising up seed topic.  For some arbitrary unexplained reason the mods banned me from that thread.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

But you are distorting my position

You have no coherent position, that is the problem.

You only know one way to justify statements, through empirical evidence. Then you make moral assertions, which cannot be rationally justified by your own definitions.

That is simply incoherent 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Whatever.  I try. But you are distorting my position.

Tell you what. Find me one LDS leader who teaches and defines truth as you do. Then maybe your approach to truth will have some meaning in the LDS realm of things.

By the way I cannot see your comment to me on the raising up seed topic.  For some arbitrary unexplained reason the mods banned me from that thread.

Well I am not about to try to circumvent the mods.

The central inconsistency was based on the idea that you demand empirical evidence but then provide no empirical evidence for your moral disagreement on polygamy 

You have no case for such an opinion, while preaching  logical positivism 

Edited November 25, 2021 by mfbukowski

[Gillebre]

8 hours ago, The Great Pretender said:

With respect, I suggest this is untrue for anyone with differing sexual attractions. I can only speak for myself, of course. I've done all that, and I've felt my attractions strongly, even while serving in the temple. And to say that the attractions aren't sinful is hogwash.

Attractions have a lot in common with addiction (even though there are clear differences). And maintaining spiritual fortitude alone will not cure addiction.

While serving a mission, I repeatedly pleaded with the Lord to remove my attractions to help me serve most effectively. I was a diligent missionary who immersed himself in his missionary efforts. My attractions never left me. You are free to suggest or imply that I am mistaken or even lying, but my experience is common to all those people who find they can no longer bear being in the Church. Telling us we are wrong solves nothing. That's what makes me so angry. I'm trying to hang on to my faith, but there's nothing to temper the hidden distress. No remedies. And devotion isn't a remedy. At best, it is a placebo.

My formative experiences have been different from yours in many ways, and yet similar in others. If sustained devotion to the Savior through our covenants isn't the remedy then I can't imagine there will ever be any remedy at all.

What is lacking or missing from the covenants of the Restored Church that would give us the ability to access grace sufficient for our unwanted weaknesses? I believe that we have exactly what we need already revealed to us, but we can't buy into the deception that it's not possible (for then it truly becomes impossible as we have no faith).

I live as an example and witness that devotion and focus on the Savior can allow us to walk on the water, as it were, and give us the means to do what many believe is impossible: reconcile feelings of same-sex attraction with a life of valiance in the Gospel and Church of Jesus Christ. By intimate experience with the Savior's Atonement I can testify that there are blessings and endowments, held in reserve and tied to laws in Heaven, that can strengthen us to bear these especially frustrating and confusing burdens. There's no answer other than sustained agency used one day, one hour, or even one minute at a time to put Him first in our mind and heart.

I've read several of your posts since you joined us here and wondered if I should address you. I'm in my thirties and have spent many years wrestling with similar questions, pains, and challenges as you've described. I've been through what I once considered a most dreadful spiritual journey of constant backsliding incident to a regular addiction to pornography for over twenty years. Now I can only thank Him for showing me the way out of that darkness, and this so I can testify to others that they can enjoy the same peace that only comes from being one with Him.

I want you to know that I truly mourn and empathize with you. I don't know you personally, but as your brother I hope against hope that you can give place for my witness.

The placebo that you call devotion really is our part of the answer, and more specifically it's found in the Sacrament prayer. Specifically that as we strive to "always remember him and keep his commandments which he has given [us]; [then we] may always have his Spirit to be with [us]."

I promise you with tender feelings for the long time you've struggled and suffered, for I too have spent many years in the darkness of frustration and despair, that this small and simple prayer contains the seeds of the answer you seek: the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost.

Another part of the answer is found in redefining what our expectations should be. I haven't suddenly had my attractions to men vanish, but the Lord added something to me that I didn't have before: an attraction to His light that has greater allure and yields more tranquility than anything else in my life. Of course I use attraction in that sense with an eye towards the broader definition of pull or appeal.

Having drawn closer to Jesus Christ on a daily and sometimes hourly basis I'm more attracted to His light than I am to other men. He has become the center of my universe and as long as I strive to keep it that way, and it is exceedingly difficult (but not impossible), then I know I can rely on His grace through ongoing and effective prayer to help motivate and sustain my progress.

The pull of His light has an effect that I would liken to gravity: the closer you get to Him the more influence He has over you, and that influence enables you to more consistently choose not to entertain ideas that would take one away from Him. Although the attraction never has gone away it has taken a back seat to the real connection I'm developing with the Savior which then supercedes everything else. 

I tend to ramble in my replies so I'll stop here except to bear my testimony, and again I ask that you leave room to trust me.

I know with a perfect knowledge that the lasting peace we seek can only be received by living inside our covenants with the Savior (especially those made in the Temple). His grace flows more freely to us through our covenants, but only if that is our true focus. When our hearts are upon our covenants they become our treasure on earth and in heaven. My greatest obstacle was in coming to believe Christ's own testimony about His power to save. 

Perhaps Satan's most effective lie amongst the Saints is that we can't really be perfected by Christ or experience lasting change by virtue of His atoning blood. We're too far gone, we've screwed up and failed one too many times. The Church just doesn't offer a perfect solution which can enable me to deal with my unwanted feelings.

Ether 12:27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

I plead with you to believe Him when He says He really can make you whole. I also plead with you to remember the pattern He gave us in Mosiah 24:14 where Alma and his people didn't have their afflictions suddenly lifted once they were "good enough" and instead had to live in their covenants with the Lord for both relief and strength to live valiantly.

14 And I will also ease the burdens which are put upon your shoulders, that even you cannot feel them upon your backs, even while you are in bondage; and this will I do that ye may stand as witnesses for me hereafter, and that ye may know of a surety that I, the Lord God, do visit my people in their afflictions.

I don't know you personally, but I love you dearly and hope you remain with us. We are here for you. Your Savior will not leave you comfortless.

I went on longer than I intended, but I have shared the words and witness He gave me.

With love,

Your brother

 

Edited November 25, 2021 by Gillebre

[Calm]

GP, if you want to know Gillebre better, perhaps to see if his testimony rings true, he joined the board back in 2007 and has posted off and on since then, so you can use Google or another search function to look up his posts if you care to. Again, search function of the board and the profile only back a year unfortunately. 

[Teancum]

13 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

You have no coherent position, that is the problem.

My position is totally coherent.  It seems to me yours is not.

I DON"T CLAIM THERE IS ONE SINGLE TRUTH. YOUR RELIGIGOUS DENOMINATION DOES.

 

Nor can you find any LDS authority that would define truth the way you do.  I doubt they would .

13 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

You only know one way to justify statements, through empirical evidence. Then you make moral assertions, which cannot be rationally justified by your own definitions.

That is simply incoherent 

Hardly. 

[Teancum]

13 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Well I am not about to try to circumvent the mods.

The central inconsistency was based on the idea that you demand empirical evidence but then provide no empirical evidence for your moral disagreement on polygamy 

You have no case for such an opinion, while preaching  logical positivism 

The only reason you find LDS polygamy as moral is because you think somehow you know Joseph Smith was directed by God to do it.  That is pretty weak sauce for a moral argument. Especially when you would likely reject all others making a claim.  Thus your vaunted philosophical approach to reality is flawed.  But stay happy in your reality and I will in mine. Based on what your write I can conclude mine is just a true as yours.

[Chum]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

The only reason you find LDS polygamy as moral is because you think somehow you know Joseph Smith was directed by God to do it. 

What would you say differentiates morals from ethics? (I don't have an answer ready)

[Teancum]

43 minutes ago, Chum said:

What would you say differentiates morals from ethics? (I don't have an answer ready)

I am not sure. I would think the two walk hand in hand.

[Chum]

29 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I am not sure. I would think the two walk hand in hand.

Perhaps ethics are about what impacts the larger society (population) while morals are about guidelines set by smaller societies (groups, regions).

[mfbukowski]

23 hours ago, Teancum said:

No that is incorrect. It is the  LDS Church and the majority of their believing adherents who claim this as well as true believers on other religions.

No, you do not know what lies in the hearts of those deeply committed to following the spirit.

There is one funalmentalist gospel for children which some take into adulthood, and others who have come to the same conclusions I have. Professors Paulsen and Givens, Ostler, Mason, Faulconer and many many others would parallel my opinions. There are General Authorities whose messages parallel these ideas.  President Kimball did a talk on Absolute Truth which was brilliant.

You are looking at the wrong sources.

Why would you want to emulate the lowest common denominator in all religions?

 

Edited November 25, 2021 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

23 hours ago, Teancum said:

Yes.  With empirical testing.

You don't find your purpose in life through empirical testing, unless it is by testing paths, and then still pursuing your heart.

Ever been in love? Same thing 

[mfbukowski]

23 hours ago, Teancum said:

But as noted above I don't think there is one truth.

Fine. So why are you condemning MY truth and asserting yours? Another inconsistency.

What IS your truth if it is not the TRUE truth?

[mfbukowski]

On 11/24/2021 at 1:57 PM, Teancum said:

And yours of metaphysical experience takes more faith than I can muster.

But as I have told you, I am ok with living my reality and letting you live yours.  My truth is as good as anyone's is it not?

If it works for you, but then why are you here???

Another inconsistency.

You keep digging deeper in self contradiction 

[mfbukowski]

On 11/24/2021 at 1:57 PM, Teancum said:

It appears you do not really understand my position

Nope.

Your position seems to be one self contradiction after another.

There's no "position" to understand.

State one and we can discuss its alleged "truth" and how to justify it as "rational".

[mfbukowski]

On 11/24/2021 at 1:57 PM, Teancum said:

But who and what defines the gospel of Jesus Christ? And what of those whose religious truth precludes Jesus Christ?

The beliefs of millions who have found it and affirm its truth.

Here you again are self-contradaictory.

As I have said a hundred times to you there are many paths that lead to Christ, but eventually "every knee shall bow".  Every spiritual advance by anyone in any religion leads to Christ as all will know when we see Him face to face, instead of through a dark mirror 

[mrmarklin]

On 11/11/2021 at 3:13 PM, rodheadlee said:

I'm still trying to figure out why I need to know anyone's sexual orientation. TMI!

Totally true. I fail to understand the apparent need for homosexuals to announce (mostly in subtle ways) their sexuality. I never announce mine, except most males will notice my interest in the opposite sex, I suppose. 
I knew a person in business almost 30 years and after a while it became apparent to me that he was perhaps homosexual. You could have knocked me over with a feather when he married a beautiful woman two years ago. 

Edited November 25, 2021 by mrmarklin

[Chum]

3 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

I fail to understand the apparent need for homosexuals to announce (mostly in subtle ways) their sexuality. I never announce mine, except most males will notice my interest in the opposite sex,

Recap: You never announce your sexuality in subtle ways except in ways that other people will notice.

Well, okay.

[kimpearson]

1 hour ago, mrmarklin said:

Totally true. I fail to understand the apparent need for homosexuals to announce (mostly in subtle ways) their sexuality. I never announce mine, except most males will notice my interest in the opposite sex, I suppose. 
I knew a person in business almost 30 years and after a while it became apparent to me that he was perhaps homosexual. You could have knocked me over with a feather when he married a beautiful woman two years ago. 

Except heterosexuals announce it when they date, when they watch the opposite sex at the beach, pretty cheer leaders at football games, walk down the street with their spouse and children, have almost all movies and books about heterosexual relationships, marriages, pictures of grand kids, talk in the workplace about the good looking co-workers, most administrative assistants of powerful are attractive women, openly admire beautiful people of the opposite sex, talk of girl friends and boy friends and the list goes on and is so accepted as "normal" behavior that you don't even see it.  You can't even imagine what it might be like for a homosexual in the world.  Try to imagine a world where homosexuality was the norm and many people around you would look askance at you for even considering liking the opposite sex.  All homosexuals are asking is that you acknowledge that they are alive and want to enjoy all the privileges you have with the acceptance of your behavior.

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, kimpearson said:

Except heterosexuals announce it when they date, when they watch the opposite sex at the beach, pretty cheer leaders at football games, walk down the street with their spouse and children, have almost all movies and books about heterosexual relationships, marriages, pictures of grand kids, talk in the workplace about the good looking co-workers, most administrative assistants of powerful are attractive women, openly admire beautiful people of the opposite sex, talk of girl friends and boy friends and the list goes on and is so accepted as "normal" behavior that you don't even see it.  You can't even imagine what it might be like for a homosexual in the world.  Try to imagine a world where homosexuality was the norm and many people around you would look askance at you for even considering liking the opposite sex.  All homosexuals are asking is that you acknowledge that they are alive and want to enjoy all the privileges you have with the acceptance of your behavior.

Yep!

[rodheadlee]

On 11/12/2021 at 11:22 AM, Fether said:

You are right. Feel free to ignore that line.

 

the rest stands 

Yeah well. If you really must know I didn't go to the prom. I wasn't one of the beautiful people. I pumped gas into the cars of the people going to the prom. I can't have children. They called me the Virgin because I don't commit adultry. I was sexually assaulted by an LGBTQ when I was about 10 years old and they won't give me a TR because my sin is nicotine. I don't advertise the fact the we had sex over 7300 times during the first 10 years of our marriage. 

[mrmarklin]

4 hours ago, kimpearson said:

Except heterosexuals announce it when they date, when they watch the opposite sex at the beach, pretty cheer leaders at football games, walk down the street with their spouse and children, have almost all movies and books about heterosexual relationships, marriages, pictures of grand kids, talk in the workplace about the good looking co-workers, most administrative assistants of powerful are attractive women, openly admire beautiful people of the opposite sex, talk of girl friends and boy friends and the list goes on and is so accepted as "normal" behavior that you don't even see it.  You can't even imagine what it might be like for a homosexual in the world.  Try to imagine a world where homosexuality was the norm and many people around you would look askance at you for even considering liking the opposite sex.  All homosexuals are asking is that you acknowledge that they are alive and want to enjoy all the privileges you have with the acceptance of your behavior.

I deal with homosexuals frequently in business, both acknowledged and unacknowledged. Only when is there a marriage announcement or similar do I become “aware “ of the unacknowledged. Most of the rest stay in the closet so to speak and AFAIK are treated by myself and others in a normal manner. I don’t make a deal of this, but some people out there seem to put themselves out there for what I regard as special treatment. No one needs to tell me they are homosexual to be treated with respect. I treat everyone with common courtesy. You don’t need to tell me you’re homosexual to get it.