What do you believe is the current narrative for most LGTBQ members of the Church?

[Olmec Donald]

39 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I am not sure what their rating system is but any relationship that involves the term “polycule” is automatically evil and the worst on the ranking scale.

I had to look that word up.  The online definition seems like it would include polygamy... am I missing something? 

[kimpearson]

Getting back to my original post.  Please explain why Heavenly Father would give a commandment (complete abstinence for homosexuals from any form of romantic love towards the same sex under any circumstances including the hope of such love ever) that literally destroys the emotional health of 99.9% of those who make any attempt to follow this commandment.  What other commandment does that?  Name me one commandment that even causes 5% of those who follow it to have severe mental issues.   The Greatpretender is a prime example of what this commandment does to even the most faithful.  There has to be a different path that leads to happiness.  Every other commandment of God brings either happiness, peace, confidence or increased love.  Why the one exception?  Don't compare this to single heterosexual individuals because none of them suffer scars like this.  Oh, I can name another current commandment that causes the same damage, identifying as a gender other than the one assigned to you at birth.  Does that sound like a just, loving God?

[Tacenda]

22 minutes ago, kimpearson said:

Getting back to my original post.  Please explain why Heavenly Father would give a commandment (complete abstinence for homosexuals from any form of romantic love towards the same sex under any circumstances including the hope of such love ever) that literally destroys the emotional health of 99.9% of those who make any attempt to follow this commandment.  What other commandment does that?  Name me one commandment that even causes 5% of those who follow it to have severe mental issues.   The Greatpretender is a prime example of what this commandment does to even the most faithful.  There has to be a different path that leads to happiness.  Every other commandment of God brings either happiness, peace, confidence or increased love.  Why the one exception?  Don't compare this to single heterosexual individuals because none of them suffer scars like this.  Oh, I can name another current commandment that causes the same damage, identifying as a gender other than the one assigned to you at birth.  Does that sound like a just, loving God?

It seems that the non LDS Christians don't believe quite like us, in that we're going to propagate in the hereafter. It seems to be the roadblock to the homosexuals being equal to heterosexuals in the LDS church. But I do like that homosexuals aren't going to be damned to hell for it or even killed for acting on it or even being a homosexual, like in some faiths. It's sad how religion or beliefs can mess up humankind sometimes.

[smac97]

12 hours ago, kimpearson said:

Getting back to my original post.  Please explain why Heavenly Father would give a commandment (complete abstinence for homosexuals from any form of romantic love towards the same sex under any circumstances including the hope of such love ever) that literally destroys the emotional health of 99.9% of those who make any attempt to follow this commandment. What other commandment does that? Name me one commandment that even causes 5% of those who follow it to have severe mental issues.   

As long as we're playing around with loaded questions, are you still beating your wife?  And skinning puppies for fun and profit?

The majority of adults in the Church are not married, and hence are constrained from sexual behavior.

12 hours ago, kimpearson said:

The Greatpretender is a prime example of what this commandment does to even the most faithful. 

Keeping the Law of Chastity is difficult in this increasingly sexualized and depraved world, but doable.

12 hours ago, kimpearson said:

There has to be a different path that leads to happiness. 

Not sure what this means.

12 hours ago, kimpearson said:

Every other commandment of God brings either happiness, peace, confidence or increased love. 

In the long run, yes (and in much of the short run, too).  But there are plenty of instances where obeying God brought anything but in-the-moment "happiness."  Sometimes obedience is hard.  Sometimes it's unpopular.  Sometimes it subjects you to scorn and ridicule and hatred.  Sometimes it requires you to sacrifice something you really like.  Sometimes it brings short-term challenges, including very serious ones.

Keeping one's covenants is an extended exercise in faith, perseverence, and trust.  "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."  (1 Cor. 2:9.)

12 hours ago, kimpearson said:

Why the one exception? 

I reject your presuppositions.  I reject your loaded questions.  

12 hours ago, kimpearson said:

Don't compare this to single heterosexual individuals because none of them suffer scars like this. 

That's not how these discussions work.

12 hours ago, kimpearson said:

Oh, I can name another current commandment that causes the same damage, identifying as a gender other than the one assigned to you at birth.  Does that sound like a just, loving God?

Oh, brother.  

The children of men are afflicted with all sorts of challenges.  Mental impairments.  Physical deformities.  Illness and disease.  Poverty.  Social strife.  Unjust laws.  Sexual abuse.  Physical abuse.  Neglect.  

Look beyond your cherry-picked First World Problems and you'll see that all sorts of people face all sorts of difficulty.  And the Gospel is nevertheless designed for all of us.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited December 2, 2021 by smac97

[california boy]

8 hours ago, CV75 said:

This is unfortunate because none of our doctrine supports any attention, hate and intolerance toward "intrinsic" (which is debatable since we do not know all the ways it comes about) homosexuality for homosexuality's sake. Our doctrine does support the covenant way that Christ came into the world, which is a pattern for us all.

Really?  Our lives are suppose to mimic in every way what Christ did?  Conception should only occur with a virgin?  We should fast for 40 days?  We should choose 12 men to follow us around and learn from our teachings?  We should not get married at all?  We should die on a cross?  Or just maybe, Christ really doesn't expect us to mimic his life perfectly, but rather to follow his teachings, none of which even talks about how someone who is attracted to the same sex should live.  Hence the need for revelation rather than assumptions.

There is nothing that supports your reasoning for how doctrine is decided.  What is expected is to go to Christ in prayer for guidance on how to live your life.  Either you believe in personal revelation or you don't.  You can't have it both ways.

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, kimpearson said:

Getting back to my original post.  Please explain why Heavenly Father would give a commandment (complete abstinence for homosexuals from any form of romantic love towards the same sex under any circumstances including the hope of such love ever) that literally destroys the emotional health of 99.9% of those who make any attempt to follow this commandment.  What other commandment does that?  Name me one commandment that even causes 5% of those who follow it to have severe mental issues.   The Greatpretender is a prime example of what this commandment does to even the most faithful.  There has to be a different path that leads to happiness.  Every other commandment of God brings either happiness, peace, confidence or increased love.  Why the one exception?  Don't compare this to single heterosexual individuals because none of them suffer scars like this.  Oh, I can name another current commandment that causes the same damage, identifying as a gender other than the one assigned to you at birth.  Does that sound like a just, loving God?

How did homosexuality evolve?

Edited December 2, 2021 by mfbukowski

[The Great Pretender]

7 hours ago, california boy said:

What is expected is to go to Christ in prayer for guidance on how to live your life.  Either you believe in personal revelation or you don't.  You can't have it both ways.

Two points:

(1) Personal revelation.
(2) Church narrative for LGBT members.

Personal Revelation
You just lobbed in a grenade. We can head straight over to D&C 9:8-9 to remind ourselves what every Church member is taught. I learnt the principle in Seminary and have repeatedly taught it over several decades.

One major problem with personal revelation (if it even exists in the form we teach), is that there is no independent arbiter. I recently destroyed a friendship for questioning an individual's personal revelation. The situation involved a man who claimed earlier this year that he was directed by the Spirit to end his 24-year marriage to his wife, to separate from her, and get himself a boyfriend while waiting for his divorce. His wife publicly posted about her spiritual witness that she and her husband had achieved all they needed to do together and should pursue different paths. When I questioned the validity of all this, I was told in no uncertain terms that I had overstepped the mark and had no right to question someone else's personal revelation. I now have one friendship fewer than I had before.

I don't buy it. People claim personal revelation for whatever feels good for them at the time. Others claim that the Lord says, "Not yet," simply because they like to punish themselves.

Church Narrative for LGBT Members
This discussion keeps heading down interesting yet unrelated rabbit holes. I must persist in my argument that the current Church position fails individuals who experience LGBT-related issues. That isn't the viewpoint of a third party. It is my viewpoint as an individual who strives to remain on the Covenant Path. I have no interest in the so-called gay agenda that won't rest until same-sex marriages are enshrined in doctrine. Everyone, please wake up. I, for one, don't support that.

For those affected, the current Church position actively prevents peace, reconciliation, and contentment. That is my personal, lived experience supported by decades of observations of the choices and outcomes of others. If I am wrong, show me how.

In the UK, two of us spent about 18 months (2017-2019) directly engaged with the Europe Area leadership, LDS Family Services, and the 46 stake presidents and stake Relief Society presidents of the United Kingdom and Ireland after becoming disillusioned with the inaction of the North Star LDS group that purports to help conflicted individuals. Our motivation and focus was to increase awareness and love of individuals—in each congregation across our two nations—who struggle to reconcile faith and sexuality so that we, as a collective of understanding individuals, could offer covenant-keeping supportive measures. Without these measures, the Church continues to haemmorhage members.

Fast-forward to 2021, and one of us (not me) has now separated from his wife of 30+ years and is extricating himself from the Church on account of his disillusionment and irrepressible feelings of inauthenticity. As for me, I feel I have no alternative but to pursue the treacherous path of addressing my unmet emotional needs in non-Church-aligned LGBT-oriented groups. In fact, I have just signed up to spend all day Saturday hiking with a collection of 20 gay, bi, and trans men in a bid to tackle the emotional shortfall that the Church prefers me to keep bottled up.

To think that the two of us used to meet at the temple with our wives to serve together and find strength.

I have no interest in a "pity party." When I see a need, I address it. If I am unable to do that within a Church context because the Brethren don't want to poke the bear, I will do so in whatever other ways I can find. If that sees me edging away from the Covenant Path as a consequence, I'll have to insist like everyone else that I received personal revelation to do so. Ultimately, the current Church position is failing the marriage I wish to keep intact. Why? Because, for men like me, living as a straight guy leaves a trail of unresolved emotional wreckage. You may insist that I simply haven't yet exerted sufficient effort. Well, my efforts over several decades eventually compounded to the point where I couldn't stop crying, even with prescribed medication (for stress because I couldn't divulge the true source of my discomfort to my non-Church doctor), and I was ready to kill myself (as in, I drove in a distressed state to a quiet location to figure out how best to do it). I outright reject the arguments and accusations of those who view life through a different lens. Lucky you.

From my perspective, the Church position on this matter is contemptible—even though I remain a covenant-keeping priesthood holder who is actively serving on my stake High Council. For now.

Edited December 2, 2021 by The Great Pretender

[BRMC]

9 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I'm confused, but nothing new, what do you mean a no brainer? Do you think SSM is worse than an affair?

No.  I believe an affair to be far worse than SSM.  

[CV75]

10 hours ago, california boy said:

Really?  Our lives are suppose to mimic in every way what Christ did?  Conception should only occur with a virgin?  We should fast for 40 days?  We should choose 12 men to follow us around and learn from our teachings?  We should not get married at all?  We should die on a cross?  Or just maybe, Christ really doesn't expect us to mimic his life perfectly, but rather to follow his teachings, none of which even talks about how someone who is attracted to the same sex should live.  Hence the need for revelation rather than assumptions.

There is nothing that supports your reasoning for how doctrine is decided.  What is expected is to go to Christ in prayer for guidance on how to live your life.  Either you believe in personal revelation or you don't.  You can't have it both ways.

Christ was the pattern for us all given the Plan of Redemption as approved in the Grand Council. He was born of a covenant relationship between a Man and a woman, lived, was tested, did His best in performing a foreordained work, died, continued on in a resurrected degree of glory, etc. and we follow suit, which is not imitating, or the more derogatory term, mimicking -- both grossly inaccurate strawmen to what I was saying. Adam and Eve were the first to follow suit (figuratively or literally, however you want to put it -- still a covenant relationship between a man and a woman inasmuch as Christ was the pattern for a living, breathing mortal Person).

Our doctrine supports the covenant way that Christ came into the world, which is a pattern for us all, as first set forth in Moses 6: 53 - 63). Given the context in which this was taught, the many-layered symbols of blood, water and spirit/Spirit have everything to do with how life is generated physically, spiritually, temporally and immortally/eternally through the marriage of Adam (men) and Eve (women).

 

Edited December 2, 2021 by CV75

[california boy]

5 hours ago, The Great Pretender said:

Two points:

(1) Personal revelation.
(2) Church narrative for LGBT members.

Personal Revelation
You just lobbed in a grenade. We can head straight over to D&C 9:8-9 to remind ourselves what every Church member is taught. I learnt the principle in Seminary and have repeatedly taught it over several decades.

One major problem with personal revelation (if it even exists in the form we teach), is that there is no independent arbiter. I recently destroyed a friendship for questioning an individual's personal revelation. The situation involved a man who claimed earlier this year that he was directed by the Spirit to end his 24-year marriage to his wife, to separate from her, and get himself a boyfriend while waiting for his divorce. His wife publicly posted about her spiritual witness that she and her husband had achieved all they needed to do together and should pursue different paths. When I questioned the validity of all this, I was told in no uncertain terms that I had overstepped the mark and had no right to question someone else's personal revelation. I now have one friendship fewer than I had before.

I don't buy it. People claim personal revelation for whatever feels good for them at the time. Others claim that the Lord says, "Not yet," simply because they like to punish themselves.

Church Narrative for LGBT Members
This discussion keeps heading down interesting yet unrelated rabbit holes. I must persist in my argument that the current Church position fails individuals who experience LGBT-related issues. That isn't the viewpoint of a third party. It is my viewpoint as an individual who strives to remain on the Covenant Path. I have no interest in the so-called gay agenda that won't rest until same-sex marriages are enshrined in doctrine. Everyone, please wake up. I, for one, don't support that.

For those affected, the current Church position actively prevents peace, reconciliation, and contentment. That is my personal, lived experience supported by decades of observations of the choices and outcomes of others. If I am wrong, show me how.

In the UK, two of us spent about 18 months (2017-2019) directly engaged with the Europe Area leadership, LDS Family Services, and the 46 stake presidents and stake Relief Society presidents of the United Kingdom and Ireland after becoming disillusioned with the inaction of the North Star LDS group that purports to help conflicted individuals. Our motivation and focus was to increase awareness and love of individuals—in each congregation across our two nations—who struggle to reconcile faith and sexuality so that we, as a collective of understanding individuals, could offer covenant-keeping supportive measures. Without these measures, the Church continues to haemmorhage members.

Fast-forward to 2021, and one of us (not me) has now separated from his wife of 30+ years and is extricating himself from the Church on account of his disillusionment and irrepressible feelings of inauthenticity. As for me, I feel I have no alternative but to pursue the treacherous path of addressing my unmet emotional needs in non-Church-aligned LGBT-oriented groups. In fact, I have just signed up to spend all day Saturday hiking with a collection of 20 gay, bi, and trans men in a bid to tackle the emotional shortfall that the Church prefers me to keep bottled up.

To think that the two of us used to meet at the temple with our wives to serve together and find strength.

I have no interest in a "pity party." When I see a need, I address it. If I am unable to do that within a Church context because the Brethren don't want to poke the bear, I will do so in whatever other ways I can find. If that sees me edging away from the Covenant Path as a consequence, I'll have to insist like everyone else that I received personal revelation to do so. Ultimately, the current Church position is failing the marriage I wish to keep intact. Why? Because, for men like me, living as a straight guy leaves a trail of unresolved emotional wreckage. You may insist that I simply haven't yet exerted sufficient effort. Well, my efforts over several decades eventually compounded to the point where I couldn't stop crying, even with prescribed medication (for stress because I couldn't divulge the true source of my discomfort to my non-Church doctor), and I was ready to kill myself (as in, I drove in a distressed state to a quiet location to figure out how best to do it). I outright reject the arguments and accusations of those who view life through a different lens. Lucky you.

From my perspective, the Church position on this matter is contemptible—even though I remain a covenant-keeping priesthood holder who is actively serving on my stake High Council. For now.

Honestly, my heart goes out to you.  I too was on a similar path as you for many years.  I know the pain you are going through.  Like you, I prayed and fasted and pleaded and cried to God to take away my same sex attraction for literally years.  And if God was not going to do that, then to at least give me some peace.  I too did everything God asked me to do.  Served in every capacity that was asked of me and magnified my callings.  Went on a mission, taught seminary for 5 years, young mens president for years, served in a bishopric, on a high council, and countless other callings.  I too joined Evergreen, which was the Church program before Northstar.  I went to their meetings and participated in their activities.  When I finally came out to my wife and family, I even flew down to Los Angeles twice a month to try reparative therapy with Dave Matheson who wrote the manual for the Evergreen program.  We sat face to face as he told me that he used to be gay, but now was happily married and I could find that happiness as well. It was all a big lie.  Read the article from the Salt Lake Tribune.  Or Google who he is and you can find his story.  In 2019, Dave Matheson announced that he no longer could stay in his marriage and that he now had a boyfriend.  From the article.

Quote

 

A prominent gay Latter-day Saint counselor — who once preached and practiced so-called “reparative therapy” to change a person’s sexual orientation and was married to a woman for more than 30 years — announced this week he is ready to date men.

“A year ago I realized I had to make substantial changes in my life,” David Matheson wrote on Facebook. “I realized I couldn’t stay in my marriage any longer. And I realized that it was time for me to affirm myself as gay.”

Matheson’s “coming-out” has roiled the LGBTQ community, especially among members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

 

Quote

Matheson has been a big player in the debate over these widely denounced change efforts, known variously as reparative or conversion therapy. He was executive director of now-defunct Evergreen International, which advocated such therapeutic interventions for Latter-day Saints who were feeling tensions between their attractions and their faith. That support group closed its doors in 2014 — just as same-sex marriage was legalized in Utah — and was replaced by North Star, which addressed the same audience but took no position on reparative therapy.

My wife and I also divorced.  It was her decision, not mine.  And it was the right decision for us.  Our lives have not always been easy as a result, but both of us have found the peace in our souls that you are seeking.  And our friendship and support has still continued to this day.   I truly wish you well on your journey.  I know how hard you are working to save your marriage.  And I know the torment you are going through.  I also know that you can not say that people make up personal revelation just to satisfy their wants.  God does speak to each every one of us that seek Him.  I hope you find peace in your life before this conflict between your soul and the Church before it destroys you.  If you want to send me a personal message, I would be more than happy to have a more private conversation with you.  I would do anything I can to ease this burden you bear from you.   God bless you brother, no matter how this journey turns out for you.  Just know that it does get better and that you can be loved for who you are.

 

 

[california boy]

5 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Christ was the pattern for us all given the Plan of Redemption as approved in the Grand Council. He was born of a covenant relationship between a Man and a woman, lived, was tested, did His best in performing a foreordained work, died, continued on in a resurrected degree of glory, etc. and we follow suit, which is not imitating, or the more derogatory term, mimicking -- both grossly inaccurate strawmen to what I was saying. Adam and Eve were the first to follow suit (figuratively or literally, however you want to put it -- still a covenant relationship between a man and a woman inasmuch as Christ was the pattern for a living, breathing mortal Person).

Our doctrine supports the covenant way that Christ came into the world, which is a pattern for us all, as first set forth in Moses 6: 53 - 63). Given the context in which this was taught, the many-layered symbols of blood, water and spirit/Spirit have everything to do with how life is generated physically, spiritually, temporally and immortally/eternally through the marriage of Adam (men) and Eve (women).

 

I am glad everything fits into a nice little box for you.  That is not true for everyone.  You kinda proved that by not addressing all the points I brought up.  Not everything fits into your little box.  

[Gillebre]

13 hours ago, kimpearson said:

Getting back to my original post.  Please explain why Heavenly Father would give a commandment (complete abstinence for homosexuals from any form of romantic love towards the same sex under any circumstances including the hope of such love ever) that literally destroys the emotional health of 99.9% of those who make any attempt to follow this commandment.  What other commandment does that?  Name me one commandment that even causes 5% of those who follow it to have severe mental issues.   The Greatpretender is a prime example of what this commandment does to even the most faithful.  There has to be a different path that leads to happiness.  Every other commandment of God brings either happiness, peace, confidence or increased love.  Why the one exception?  Don't compare this to single heterosexual individuals because none of them suffer scars like this.  Oh, I can name another current commandment that causes the same damage, identifying as a gender other than the one assigned to you at birth.  Does that sound like a just, loving God?

 

The pain you describe due to the law of chastity as taught today at least partly comes from persons holding on too tightly to what they want, or what society says they should want, rather than giving ear to Prophets and Apostles who testify that only by giving up what we want can we be given something far better that will make us happier (becoming one with the Lord). Pain is also certainly caused by very imperfect people not living up to their covenants to mourn with others and to help bear burdens, and the culture that grows out of their hostility and unwillingness to be Christlike. 

The pain they feel is meant to be healed by their receiving and living Gospel covenants. If they won't do that then they tie the Lord's hands (I the Lord am bound when ye do what I say, but when ye do not what I say ye have no promise).

What we set our hearts on has a big impact on where we find fulfillment, peace, and motivation. It doesn't help that society has it's own ideas of what we should be setting our hearts on, and the pressure to conform to worldly standards is immense.

If I set my heart and hopes on romantic relationships with other men then I will be perpetually frustrated and let down because of the innate conflict with Gospel standards of marriage and eternal family. I can choose one or the other, but not both, because no man can serve two masters.

The path to eternal happiness and peace in this life is found by choosing the Gospel and Church of Jesus Christ as restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith. Strength to grow in righteousness and motivation to choose obedience over distractions and temptations comes through daily active reliance on our covenants with the Savior.

Intentionally placing our covenants first in the list of life's daily priorities is the heart and soul of the covenant path. I have spent many years with my heart set on other things besides the Savior's Gospel and Church: pornography, video games, junk food, fantasies about relationships I could have, and none of those things left me feeling spiritually fulfilled and content.

My satisfaction is in knowing, through the power of the Holy Ghost, that my days are accepted by Him because I've tried to put off what I want. It's about making more room for His Spirit to be present more often in my mind and heart through striving submission to His will. 

To choose to walk the covenant path grows more difficult because of how many voices loudly insist that we shouldn't have to, or that the path must be made to accommodate the pain of those who, like myself once upon a time, wanted their own heart's desire more than the Lord's revealed heartfelt desire.

We can disbelieve the living Prophet and Apostles if we want, but this is the choice placed before us: our will be done, or His will be done as made known to us today. Happiness and spiritual stability comes by striving to trade our mind and will in exchange for His mind and will.

It's like me trying to describe the taste of salt: experience with the Lord in this way is impossible to comprehend unless you've tasted it yourself. Those who have tasted know exactly what I mean, and those who haven't probably think I'm deluded for asking others to trust my word: that the covenant path really is possible for those who are LGBT once the Holy Ghost becomes your constant companion, and I mean that literally.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Gillebre

[MustardSeed]

6 hours ago, BRMC said:

No.  I believe an affair to be far worse than SSM.  

So do I. Unfortunately my best friend who was married at the time had an affair with a man who is also married at the time. They are now married to each other. The effects of their affair carry on, years /decades later but they are both full-fledged members of the church. I see married people do horrendous things to each other that hurt innocent people. Who are homosexuals hurting?

Edited December 2, 2021 by MustardSeed

[CV75]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

I am glad everything fits into a nice little box for you.  That is not true for everyone.  You kinda proved that by not addressing all the points I brought up.  Not everything fits into your little box.  

Apparently I was unable to figure out what was a point and what was rhetoric, and what was rhetorical that I wasn't interested in addressing.

Which point(s) would you have be address? Your "point" followed by my response

• Really? I thought this question was rhetorical
• Our lives are suppose to mimic [strawman rhetoric] in every way what Christ did? Rhetorical, but no, and regardless, I did address that "point."
• Conception should only occur with a virgin?  (same)
• We should fast for 40 days?  (same)
• We should choose 12 men to follow us around and learn from our teachings? (same)
• We should not get married at all?  (same)
• We should die on a cross? (same)
• Or just maybe, Christ really doesn't expect us to mimic his life perfectly, but rather to follow his teachings, none of which even talks about how someone who is attracted to the same sex should live. (same)
• Hence the need for revelation rather than assumptions. I provided the revelation from Moses 6 and an explanation.
• There is nothing that supports your reasoning for how doctrine is decided.  (same)
• What is expected is to go to Christ in prayer for guidance on how to live your life.  Would you like me to address this? I thought you were just pontificating. Yes, the scriptures raise this expectation, in conjunction with finding the doctrine in the scripturas and in relation to other aspects of active Church membership -- you keep leaving out important elements of discipleship in summarizing Church doctrine and practice.
• Either you believe in personal revelation or you don't.  Would you like me to address this? II thought you were just pontificating. agree with it as indicated above, but also understand that people waffle and vacillate.
• You can't have it both ways. Would you like me to address this? I thought you were just pontificating. Having a well-integrated approach to discipleship is not "having it both ways", it is having the abundant life as it was designed to be lived, following the pattern set by Christ.

Now please go back to the last 3 or 4 posts where I made a point or asked you a question and you did not address them. I was not just pontificating!

 

 

[BRMC]

6 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

So do I. Unfortunately my best friend who was married at the time had an affair with a man who is also married at the time. They are now married to each other. The effects of their A fair carry-on years decades later but they are both full-fledged members of the church. I see married people do horrendous things to each other that hurt innocent people. Who are homosexuals hurting?

Well, the "who are homosexuals hurting" is a broader discussion that is subjective.    Some will argue that it hurts everyone, including the individual. Personally, I don't see a reason to participate in that discussion at all.  Many things hurt individuals and/or the community but aren't any of my business.   

[california boy]

32 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Apparently I was unable to figure out what was a point and what was rhetoric, and what was rhetorical that I wasn't interested in addressing.

Which point(s) would you have be address? Your "point" followed by my response

• Really? I thought this question was rhetorical
• Our lives are suppose to mimic [strawman rhetoric] in every way what Christ did? Rhetorical, but no, and regardless, I did address that "point."
• Conception should only occur with a virgin?  (same)
• We should fast for 40 days?  (same)
• We should choose 12 men to follow us around and learn from our teachings? (same)
• We should not get married at all?  (same)
• We should die on a cross? (same)
• Or just maybe, Christ really doesn't expect us to mimic his life perfectly, but rather to follow his teachings, none of which even talks about how someone who is attracted to the same sex should live. (same)
• Hence the need for revelation rather than assumptions. I provided the revelation from Moses 6 and an explanation.
• There is nothing that supports your reasoning for how doctrine is decided.  (same)
• What is expected is to go to Christ in prayer for guidance on how to live your life.  Would you like me to address this? I thought you were just pontificating. Yes, the scriptures raise this expectation, in conjunction with finding the doctrine in the scripturas and in relation to other aspects of active Church membership -- you keep leaving out important elements of discipleship in summarizing Church doctrine and practice.
• Either you believe in personal revelation or you don't.  Would you like me to address this? II thought you were just pontificating. agree with it as indicated above, but also understand that people waffle and vacillate.
• You can't have it both ways. Would you like me to address this? I thought you were just pontificating. Having a well-integrated approach to discipleship is not "having it both ways", it is having the abundant life as it was designed to be lived, following the pattern set by Christ.

Now please go back to the last 3 or 4 posts where I made a point or asked you a question and you did not address them. I was not just pontificating!

 

 

I get that you believe man/women marriage is what God wants you to do.  What I don't get is your claim that he set an example when Christ didn't marry or was conceived by the person who his mother married.

[The Great Pretender]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

If you want to send me a personal message, I would be more than happy to have a more private conversation with you. I would do anything I can to ease this burden you bear from you. God bless you brother, no matter how this journey turns out for you.  Just know that it does get better and that you can be loved for who you are.

 

 

Thank you for your gracious offer, california boy. Trouble is, I don't want my marriage to end. I love my wife, but living with unmet needs to maintain the status quo feels like having to choose whether I want to go out every evening to play sport or stay in every evening to read. I want both, even if that sounds unreasonable. I simply want to live life and feel emotionally healthy. What I really want to figure out is how to meet my unmet needs and stay married and retain my testimony.

[california boy]

1 minute ago, The Great Pretender said:

Thank you for your gracious offer, california boy. Trouble is, I don't want my marriage to end. I love my wife, but living with unmet needs to maintain the status quo feels like having to choose whether I want to go out every evening to play sport or stay in every evening to read. I want both, even if that sounds unreasonable. I simply want to live life and feel emotionally healthy. What I really want to figure out is how to meet my unmet needs and stay married and retain my testimony.

Honestly I wish you the very best.  And if you ever do figure it out, I would love hearing how you did it.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

I get that you believe man/women marriage is what God wants you to do.  What I don't get is your claim that he set an example when Christ didn't marry or was conceived by the person who his mother married.

I didn't claim that Jesus set an example not to marry (we don't know if He was, but if not, He handled singleness with grace and set that example for unmarried people).

He set the example for people to be born into mortality through a marriage between a man and a woman. To prepare that example, He instituted marriage for Adam and Eve and their posterity, among whom He was descended on His mother's side. He could not have been born any other way (covenant marriage, Heavenly Father and mortal woman), so the pattern as prophesied as being from before the foundation of the world is fixed for us as well as for Him.

[Canadiandude]

On 11/30/2021 at 4:24 PM, The Great Pretender said:

I accept everything you have to say, except that I don't wish to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Homosexuality aside, there are several reasons why logic and maths convince me of some great order to life and the cosmos rather than chaos and randomness. The Church is the only organisation I know of that teaches principles that complement an eternal process of development with an architect (i.e. the plan of salvation). I am highly skeptical of many assertions made about revealed specifics, but I don't get too hung up about them because I figure the individuals who claim to speak for deity by saying we must do x, y, and z will have to account for that in due course—especially if deity only had in mind for us to do a, b, and c, and the leaders got a little too carried away by revealing stuff that was more aspirational than accurate. 😉

I guess my question then would be to ask why would the perception of cosmic order necessarily indicate the existence of deity? 
 

How so and in what particulars?

This is a validity and reliability problem. How is order and disorder determined reliably? What would substantiate the claim that the presence of former is somehow a valid indication of the existence of the ‘divine’- let alone this divinity’s characteristics, doctrine, or patronage of any formal institution?

~
 

It is your life and only you can decide how you wish to live it. But if I may- just be sure you understand the reasoning behind your doing so.

When I look back upon my days as a member, I think too much of my thinking was based upon the fallacy of sunk costs, rather than examining the consequences of continuing onward w/o good evidences, or the benefits to  adjusting my course.

I could be wrong in thinking this applies to you, but the more I consider how the Endowment and other church social constructs operate, the more I’ve come to suspect my thinking at the time to have been intentionally framed to accept such fallacies. 

Just a sheltered, gay boy on the boundary of manhood, who knew nothing of the world’s vastness of perspective and/or content.
 

But I ‘chose’ right? 

 

 

 

 

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, The Great Pretender said:

Thank you for your gracious offer, california boy. Trouble is, I don't want my marriage to end. I love my wife, but living with unmet needs to maintain the status quo feels like having to choose whether I want to go out every evening to play sport or stay in every evening to read. I want both, even if that sounds unreasonable. I simply want to live life and feel emotionally healthy. What I really want to figure out is how to meet my unmet needs and stay married and retain my testimony.

Well, you are asking a lot, IMO. Unless your wife doesn't mind if you have a male lover w/o benefits. And such is life in a lot of our cases, not many marriages are ideal, rare in fact, IMO. We have the good days to make up for the bad ones, at least in my marriage. I feel bad if I missed it, does your wife know of your feelings about this? If so, what does she want you to do about wanting both lives? If you don't mind me asking.

[Canadiandude]

On 11/30/2021 at 7:34 AM, CV75 said:

By "logic" I'm referring to his line of reasoning, not necessarily adhering to strict rules of disciplinary (choose any discipline) validity. Feel free to take what follows as a stand-alone statement so as not to get bogged down with how it relates to the quote i am responding to.

But you did not make the statement absent of context and even then, your argument did not seem entirely consistent with the same reasoning that animated the other person’s argument. 

 

[The Great Pretender]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Well, you are asking a lot, IMO. Unless your wife doesn't mind if you have a male lover w/o benefits. And such is life in a lot of our cases, not many marriages are ideal, rare in fact, IMO. We have the good days to make up for the bad ones, at least in my marriage. I feel bad if I missed it, does your wife know of your feelings about this? If so, what does she want you to do about wanting both lives? If you don't mind me asking.

Ha! I didn't mean it the way it was understood, sorry. I'm not talking about an "open marriage," I'm referring to the development of sustaining, validating, non-sexual relationships with other men to address the unhealthy disconnect I experienced with masculinity during my formative years; a disconnect that prevented me from assuming my appropriate sexual identity. 

I'm not suggesting for a moment that I can rewire what cannot be changed, but I aim to foster positive male relationships in a bid to demystify and desexualise what I was always either afraid of or rejected by.

Maybe it won't help as much as I hope, but I already know that doing nothing has a cumulative corrosive effect. 

[CV75]

3 hours ago, The Great Pretender said:

Thank you for your gracious offer, california boy. Trouble is, I don't want my marriage to end. I love my wife, but living with unmet needs to maintain the status quo feels like having to choose whether I want to go out every evening to play sport or stay in every evening to read. I want both, even if that sounds unreasonable. I simply want to live life and feel emotionally healthy. What I really want to figure out is how to meet my unmet needs and stay married and retain my testimony.

Given the strong emotional aspect to this, I think your particular situation might benefit from professional therapy. There are reliable practitioners that help people figure out how to meet their needs within marriage within the context of their faith. I understand folks want to focus on what the Church can do programmatically or systemically, but individuals can do much for their particular circumstances, leveraging the three areas you listed as priorities (emotional health, the martial relationship including the happiness of your wide, and testimony).

[BRMC]

10 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Given the strong emotional aspect to this, I think your particular situation might benefit from professional therapy. There are reliable practitioners that help people figure out how to meet their needs within marriage within the context of their faith. I understand folks want to focus on what the Church can do programmatically or systemically, but individuals can do much for their particular circumstances, leveraging the three areas you listed as priorities (emotional health, the martial relationship including the happiness of your wide, and testimony).

I think we all strive to have our needs met through our marriages, no?   Maybe it's just me.    Note:  I'm not downplaying the struggles of others.