What do you believe is the current narrative for most LGTBQ members of the Church?

[The Nehor]

13 hours ago, smac97 said:

I wasn't looking for "perfect Disnelyland story."

I would have appreciated a heads-up about graphic sexual references.

I didn't suggest that.

I guess I find it . . . unsettling to have graphic, prurient sexual references casually injected into what otherwise could be illuminating and constructive media content. 

I don't judge him, either.

But nor do I want to listen to him chatting about graphic sexual matters.

I think you regularly conflate simple and fundamental and reasonable disagreement with "a complete lack of perspective."

People can share their respective perspectives without injecting prurient content into the discussion.  Do you disagree?

Sure.  But when that "perspective" includes graphic sexual references, a heads-up would be nice.

Or I could pass on the melodramatic reality TV that includes graphic sexual references, and look for other ways to try to "understand what it must be like for the person who is making those decisions."

Nobody's looking for or expecting that.  But surely there's a fair measure of distance between "whitewashing" and the inclusion of graphic sexual references.

This is part of the problem for me.  Vulgar and coarse language, prurience, and boundary-pushing just seems to be a pretty common thing in the "LGBT" materials.  This is what I was referring to by going to "the crotch."

I have been in court hundreds of times.  The purpose of the court system is to ascertain the facts and fairly apply the law.  A fairly important part of that process is decorum and civility and deportment.  So a lawyer that may cuss a blue streak in his everyday conversation will substantially moderate his language, tone and behavior when appearing in court.  Not to show off or put on a false front, but rather to avoid behavior and language that is unseemly or offensive or distracting from the purposes of the legal proceedings.

Lawyers obviously know how to behave in Court, but even people who have little or no legal experience either A) know it intuitively, or else B) pick up on expectations very quickly and adapt to them.  And you know what?  It really helps.  Maintaining a sense of decorum and dignity and constraint is very helpful when discussing difficult and disputed issues in a legal setting.

I think most folks likewise recognize the strangeness of going to a message board populated by highly religious people and encouraging them to watch a TV series that includes conversations about "fisting," porn star genitalia, hooking up with a porn star, dildoes, and so on, while making no mention of this content.  

I sure would like to hear LGBT narratives, but without the inclusion of lewd, graphic, prurient content.

I'm fine with honesty and candor.  I have reservations about lewd and graphic sexual references in media content.  I dispute that such things are a necessary component of explaining one's "perspective."  So if the individual does insist on including prurient content, then I'll look for alternative sources of information.

Thanks,

-Smac

I think we have found the real victim suffering due to the creation of this reality show……

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

……..Smac’s virgin ears.

[Analytics]

6 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I think we have found the real victim suffering due to the creation of this reality show……

……..Smac’s virgin ears.

LOL. I found it ironic that a post complaining about graphic sexual references made so many graphic sexual references. Perhaps he could put a warning on the top of his posts when he feels the need to make explicit lists of the things he finds disgusting?

[longview]

6 hours ago, The Nehor said:

…..Smac’s virgin ears.

23 minutes ago, Analytics said:

LOL. I found it ironic that a post complaining about graphic sexual references made so many graphic sexual references. Perhaps he could put a warning on the top of his posts when he feels the need to make explicit lists of the things he finds disgusting?

Mocking a board member's concerns about coarsening of the culture and media content both print and broadcast I would consider to be overtly hostile.  @smac97 is showing great restraint in pointing out unnecessary pornographic elements of public media as something that used to be prohibited by government watchdog agencies but has drifted ever more into the sewer.  It is sad for other members to be jeering from the left-wing portico of that "Great and Spacious Building".

 

[Analytics]

7 minutes ago, longview said:

Mocking a board member's concerns about coarsening of the culture and media content both print and broadcast I would consider to be overtly hostile.  @smac97 is showing great restraint in pointing out unnecessary pornographic elements of public media as something that used to be prohibited by government watchdog agencies but has drifted ever more into the sewer.  It is sad for other members to be jeering from the left-wing portico of that "Great and Spacious Building".

 

I think it's fine if somebody doesn't want to have words like "crotch," "fisting," "porn star genitalia," and "dildoes," thrown their face when watching TV. Likewise, I would assume some readers of this board would prefer not to read posts with an excessive focus on sexual matters.

[Chum]

1 minute ago, longview said:

Mocking a board member's concerns about coarsening of the culture and media content both print and broadcast I would consider to be overtly hostile.

I accept that you consider it hostile.

&

It is possible that getting endlessly bludgeoned over culture can lead to some irascibility. Staging less outrage could help that abate.

&

Coarse also applies to expressions of media freakout.

[Vanguard]

33 minutes ago, Analytics said:

I think it's fine if somebody doesn't want to have words like "crotch," "fisting," "porn star genitalia," and "dildoes," thrown their face when watching TV. Likewise, I would assume some readers of this board would prefer not to read posts with an excessive focus on sexual matters.

I got a chuckle from this. Had smac not provided details he would have been run over the coals for making a mountain out of a molehill. And if he had refused to provide the evidence, he would be accused of being a prude. Seems you can't win these days...  Classic. : (

[california boy]

Just to be clear, there is no sex at all in the Coming out Colton.  But they do discuss the things mentioned by Smac and others.  Kinda like here on the discussion board where it is also being discussed.  

If you want the Disney version of a gay movie, try Single All The Way.  Probably written by a straight guy and his version of what it must be like to be gay.  And all the actors do a good job of filling out the stereotype that you are all expecting gay people are like and how they act.  Warning, Warning, Warning.  Two guys kiss in the movie.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, longview said:

Mocking a board member's concerns about coarsening of the culture and media content both print and broadcast I would consider to be overtly hostile.  @smac97 is showing great restraint in pointing out unnecessary pornographic elements of public media as something that used to be prohibited by government watchdog agencies but has drifted ever more into the sewer.  It is sad for other members to be jeering from the left-wing portico of that "Great and Spacious Building".

 

If he had said it once that he found it distasteful my joke wouldn’t have worked but instead he said it again and again and again and yet again so it worked.

10 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

I got a chuckle from this. Had smac not provided details he would have been run over the coals for making a mountain out of a molehill. And if he had refused to provide the evidence, he would be accused of being a prude. Seems you can't win these days...  Classic. : (

The expression is ‘raked over the coals’.

You can’t “win these days” and this is somehow “classic”? That is not mixed metaphors. It is completely contradictory metaphors.

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, california boy said:

Just to be clear, there is no sex at all in the Coming out Colton.  But they do discuss the things mentioned by Smac and others.  Kinda like here on the discussion board where it is also being discussed.  

If you want the Disney version of a gay movie, try Single All The Way.  Probably written by a straight guy and his version of what it must be like to be gay.  And all the actors do a good job of filling out the stereotype that you are all expecting gay people are like and how they act.  Warning, Warning, Warning.  Two guys kiss in the movie.

How much tongue?

[california boy]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

How much tongue?

Sadly, Colton never even kisses anyone in the series.

[Peacefully]

33 minutes ago, california boy said:

Sadly, Colton never even kisses anyone in the series.

I’ve been watching 90 day fiancé The other way. If you want a beautiful example of a monogamous gay couple get to know Kenny and Armando. Armando grew up LDS, married a woman and had a child but the mother died. I believe Armando was finally able to accept himself as gay and then Kenny came into his life. Kenny is a single dad with four grown children he had through surrogacy. He is older so he couldn’t marry a man when he was younger but he wanted a family. They just had a beautiful wedding in Mexico and there was drama around whether or not Armando’s father would be there and accept them. He showed up and gave them his full support. It was quite moving. 
 

It’s interesting because there is one active LDS participant on this reality show and two who are non-active, including Armando. The two non-active called out the active one for being hypocritical and not keeping the standards. To me, it seemed like they had enough respect for the standards to leave when they could no longer uphold them, and they definitely don’t like hypocrisy. 
 

Alert: Kenny and Armando kiss and dance together at their wedding. It was beautiful and I got teary-eyed. 

Edited December 9, 2021 by Peacefully

[kimpearson]

One additional comment as I follow the conversation.  As I have listened to queer stories, I have noted a very distinct difference as the tellers got younger and younger.  The teenagers who have come out in the last 10 years tell of a very different experience than those over 40.  The teenagers tell of a story of acknowledging to themselves that they were gay, obvious actions such as self harm, depression, stepping away from the Church and an almost compulsion to come out publicly.  The older queer folks I talk to tell a story of keeping everything very secret, convincing oneself for a time that they weren't really queer or had changed, living life outwardly as straight with a secret queer life underneath.  Then eventually reaching a point where they knew they would kill themselves if they kept living a lie.  Many of the younger folk have support of friends or family.  Many of the older folk suffered in isolation and suffered rejection when they came out.

[Analytics]

1 hour ago, Vanguard said:

I got a chuckle from this. Had smac not provided details he would have been run over the coals for making a mountain out of a molehill. And if he had refused to provide the evidence, he would be accused of being a prude. Seems you can't win these days...  Classic. : (

I had to look up word "prurient." It means excessively interested in sexual matters. 

He could have said, "Thanks. I'll see if I get the chance to watch it." Nobody would have been raked over the coals. Nobody would have been accused of being a prude. The topic wouldn't have been derailed. Nobody would have been exposed to a prurient post. 

It reminded me of a clip from a movie I saw several decades ago. Some students were busted for watching an inappropriate movie in the dorm, and the movie roll was confiscated by the dean. The next day, the ringleader was called into the dean's office to be reprimanded. The dean wanted to prove he wasn't making a mountain out of a molehill. Holding the movie reel he said, "This is pure filth! Pornographic filth! I sat through every disgusting frame of this film. Twice."

Edited December 9, 2021 by Analytics

[Canadiandude]

That has to be a saying: “Those that can’t clench- clutch”

Honestly though, there’s no reason why societies need necessarily privilege puritanical, Christian values when deciding what’s appropriate or not for public consumption.

The Pornography Wars: The Past, Present, and Future of America’s Obscene Obsession by Dr. Kelsy Burke might prove a good read on the subject.

Reminds me of this tweet by Dr. Samuel Perry:

 

 

[Canadiandude]

The leather and BDSM community also gets often misunderstood/marginalized.

[Vanguard]

2 hours ago, Analytics said:

I had to look up word "prurient." It means excessively interested in sexual matters. 

He could have said, "Thanks. I'll see if I get the chance to watch it." Nobody would have been raked over the coals. Nobody would have been accused of being a prude. The topic wouldn't have been derailed. Nobody would have been exposed to a prurient post. 

It reminded me of a clip from a movie I saw several decades ago. Some students were busted for watching an inappropriate movie in the dorm, and the movie roll was confiscated by the dean. The next day, the ringleader was called into the dean's office to be reprimanded. The dean wanted to prove he wasn't making a mountain out of a molehill. Holding the movie reel he said, "This is pure filth! Pornographic filth! I sat through every disgusting frame of this film. Twice."

But that wasn't smac's take on it. He didn't want to watch and he had good reasons for not doing so. For him to say "Thanks. I'll see if I get the chance to watch it" - as you suggest - would have not been true. And regards to being a prude, how was Nehor's teasing about smac's 'virgin ears' not a jab at being prudish? Give me a break.

Now your comment about the dean watching the movie twice was admittedly a hoot. ; )

[california boy]

3 hours ago, Peacefully said:

I’ve been watching 90 day fiancé The other way. If you want a beautiful example of a monogamous gay couple get to know Kenny and Armando. Armando grew up LDS, married a woman and had a child but the mother died. I believe Armando was finally able to accept himself as gay and then Kenny came into his life. Kenny is a single dad with four grown children he had through surrogacy. He is older so he couldn’t marry a man when he was younger but he wanted a family. They just had a beautiful wedding in Mexico and there was drama around whether or not Armando’s father would be there and accept them. He showed up and gave them his full support. It was quite moving. 
 

It’s interesting because there is one active LDS participant on this reality show and two who are non-active, including Armando. The two non-active called out the active one for being hypocritical and not keeping the standards. To me, it seemed like they had enough respect for the standards to leave when they could no longer uphold them, and they definitely don’t like hypocrisy. 
 

Alert: Kenny and Armando kiss and dance together at their wedding. It was beautiful and I got teary-eyed. 

Thanks for the heads up.  I will check it out.  Do you know what platform it is on?

[california boy]

3 hours ago, kimpearson said:

One additional comment as I follow the conversation.  As I have listened to queer stories, I have noted a very distinct difference as the tellers got younger and younger.  The teenagers who have come out in the last 10 years tell of a very different experience than those over 40.  The teenagers tell of a story of acknowledging to themselves that they were gay, obvious actions such as self harm, depression, stepping away from the Church and an almost compulsion to come out publicly.  The older queer folks I talk to tell a story of keeping everything very secret, convincing oneself for a time that they weren't really queer or had changed, living life outwardly as straight with a secret queer life underneath.  Then eventually reaching a point where they knew they would kill themselves if they kept living a lie.  Many of the younger folk have support of friends or family.  Many of the older folk suffered in isolation and suffered rejection when they came out.

There is no doubt that most gay people coming out in 2021 has a completely different experience than even 10 years ago.  But, there are still a lot of men like Colton who were raised in a religion that told them they were an abomination, disgusting and sinning in the eyes of God who still  keep everything very secret, convincing oneself for a time that they weren't really queer or had changed, living life outwardly as straight with a secret queer life underneath.  They know the possible consequences of telling their family and friends their deepest secret.  Colton did have a (fortunately) failed attempt of suicide.  It was at that point in his life that he knew he had to deal with being gay no matter what the consequences or price he had to pay.  His biggest fear however is believing that he could never have a relationship with Christ because of who he was.

[Canadiandude]

Tom Christofferson is dating (men) again according to a vulnerable social media post that he recently shared.

Life is complex.

I wish him well in managing that complexity to the best he can.

[kimpearson]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

There is no doubt that most gay people coming out in 2021 has a completely different experience than even 10 years ago.  But, there are still a lot of men like Colton who were raised in a religion that told them they were an abomination, disgusting and sinning in the eyes of God who still  keep everything very secret, convincing oneself for a time that they weren't really queer or had changed, living life outwardly as straight with a secret queer life underneath.  They know the possible consequences of telling their family and friends their deepest secret.  Colton did have a (fortunately) failed attempt of suicide.  It was at that point in his life that he knew he had to deal with being gay no matter what the consequences or price he had to pay.  His biggest fear however is believing that he could never have a relationship with Christ because of who he was.

Do you think overall it is getting better for queer members?  Not in the Church but in life in general.  Are their suffering and scars less than previous generations of just different?  My son came out at 12 and it didn't take us long to realize church was toxic for him so we told him he needed to do whatever made him feel safe, made him feel alive and worthy of any happiness promised to everyone else.  We have pretty much avoided any obvious scars but when there is a murder of queer folk or he hears the rhetoric of certain political views, he obviously becomes agitated and fearful about his future.

[Tacenda]

8 minutes ago, kimpearson said:

Do you think overall it is getting better for queer members?  Not in the Church but in life in general.  Are their suffering and scars less than previous generations of just different?  My son came out at 12 and it didn't take us long to realize church was toxic for him so we told him he needed to do whatever made him feel safe, made him feel alive and worthy of any happiness promised to everyone else.  We have pretty much avoided any obvious scars but when there is a murder of queer folk or he hears the rhetoric of certain political views, he obviously becomes agitated and fearful about his future.

He definitely has come out at a golden time, thank goodness!! Bless his heart, I hope he never listens/listened to any old conference talks by Oaks or Packer on the subject, ever. 

The other day, I sub'd in a second grade class, and if I didn't know her name, I'd have called her a boy. The haircut, the clothing, the way she carried herself. I almost caught myself calling her, him. Thankfully I didn't. I'm thinking the world is much more kind and accepting of the LGBTQ+ folks. And the parents of "Alley", are doing it right. They didn't make her wear girl outfits, or make her wear her hair more like a girl. It's easy to see she may be in the transgender crowd. Even at that young age. There's more hope in this day and age. And now with SSM I think there will be less promiscuity. And healthier relationships.

[Peacefully]

3 hours ago, california boy said:

Thanks for the heads up.  I will check it out.  Do you know what platform it is on?

I watch it on Amazon Prime. My daughter watches it on Hulu Live. 

Edited December 10, 2021 by Peacefully

[Peacefully]

25 minutes ago, kimpearson said:

Do you think overall it is getting better for queer members?  Not in the Church but in life in general.  Are their suffering and scars less than previous generations of just different?  My son came out at 12 and it didn't take us long to realize church was toxic for him so we told him he needed to do whatever made him feel safe, made him feel alive and worthy of any happiness promised to everyone else.  We have pretty much avoided any obvious scars but when there is a murder of queer folk or he hears the rhetoric of certain political views, he obviously becomes agitated and fearful about his future.

Thank goodness he felt safe enough to talk to you at such a young age. Sounds like you are a wonderful parent. Good job!

[california boy]

44 minutes ago, kimpearson said:

Do you think overall it is getting better for queer members?  Not in the Church but in life in general.  Are their suffering and scars less than previous generations of just different?  My son came out at 12 and it didn't take us long to realize church was toxic for him so we told him he needed to do whatever made him feel safe, made him feel alive and worthy of any happiness promised to everyone else.  We have pretty much avoided any obvious scars but when there is a murder of queer folk or he hears the rhetoric of certain political views, he obviously becomes agitated and fearful about his future.

I don't think there is any question that things have gotten better for all LGBT people.  Certainly not nearly as toxic as things were when I was struggling with this issue.  But it doesn't mean that it is easy.  When gay members come to me, I recommend that they seriously consider what the impact on their lives is if they choose to stay in the Church.  I think you gave your son the best counsel a parent can give.  Giving him your support to make his own decisions and establish his own relationship with God should help him a great deal as he grows and understands more what he wants out of life whatever that choice may be.  I personally believe God guides those that are LGBT much better than the guidance the Church leaders are currently able to provide.

[Canadiandude]

On 12/8/2021 at 7:12 PM, Hamba Tuhan said:

I'm not sure how prevalent this is globally, but where I live the most likely victim of domestic violence statistically is a male with a male partner.

I don’t know the statistics relative to hetero, lesbian and other relationships where I live, but I know that it’s a problem here as well, just from anecdotal accounts I’ve heard from a few gay male confidants. 
 

 

Edited December 10, 2021 by Canadiandude