Canadiandude Posted December 14, 2021 Posted December 14, 2021 (edited) 12 minutes ago, MacGyver said: In my opinion when someone openly identifies as LGBTQ rather than saying that they are experiencing same-sex attraction and trying to overcome it, they are defining themselves by their weakness and temptation. I believe that identifying yourself by your temptation and weakness and telling yourself that there is nothing wrong with having these unnatural sexual desires leads to acting out on them. Which is why I wish the church would stick to calling it "same-sex attraction" and continue to try and help members who struggle with this to overcome it. Hard pass. Once again, if you’re that motivated (even go the point of disagreeing with the Brethren on account of their not bring orthodox enough) claim revelation, start your own church, and fund your own ‘conversion therapy’ camps- preferably in Canada. As I said there’s some recent legislation I’d like to test. 🙃 Edited December 14, 2021 by Canadiandude -1
Gillebre Posted December 14, 2021 Posted December 14, 2021 (edited) Deleted Edited December 14, 2021 by Gillebre
Tacenda Posted December 14, 2021 Posted December 14, 2021 21 minutes ago, MacGyver said: In my opinion when someone openly identifies as LGBTQ rather than saying that they are experiencing same-sex attraction and trying to overcome it, they are defining themselves by their weakness and temptation. I believe that identifying yourself by your temptation and weakness and telling yourself that there is nothing wrong with having these unnatural sexual desires leads to acting out on them. Which is why I wish the church would stick to calling it "same-sex attraction" and continue to try and help members who struggle with this to overcome it. Thank goodness you aren't in any way able to run the church, or at least I hope not. Please provide instances where this worked. I've shown you plenty where it doesn't.
Calm Posted December 14, 2021 Posted December 14, 2021 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: You just might have an alter ID, Ahab perhaps??? Ahab had some unorthodox views on sexual attraction iirc, plus his writing is all over.
MacGyver Posted December 14, 2021 Posted December 14, 2021 10 hours ago, MrShorty said: I recognize this as a scriptural phrase from King Benjamin (who used "putteth off" rather than "overcome", but the idea seems to be the same), but what does it actually mean? We seem to use this phrase frequently (almost exclusively???) when talking about sexual issues, and, in those contexts, it always seems to mean some variation on "stop doing/thinking/desiring sexual thing(s)." I would go so far as to say that, when I was much younger, it means that God wanted me (and the rest of us) to become asexual (speaking of changing one's orientation). I no longer believe that, but now I am uncertain exactly what we mean by overcoming the natural man/woman if it doesn't mean, in part, become asexual. The natural man encompasses much more than lust and other sexual sin. It includes jealousy, greed, unrighteous anger, selfishness, dishonesty, pride, violence, gluttony, slothfulness, and every other vice. We must overcome all of these things. Sexual desire is not in and of itself something we need to overcome. But it is something we must bridal and keep within the bounds the Lord has set.
MacGyver Posted December 14, 2021 Posted December 14, 2021 7 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Please provide instances where this worked. https://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Issues/SexualOrientation/IESOGI/Other/Personal_testimonies.docx https://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/01/us/ex-gay-men-fight-view-that-homosexuality-cant-be-changed.html A member of my own extended family also overcame same-sex attraction through counseling and prayer.
Tacenda Posted December 14, 2021 Posted December 14, 2021 4 minutes ago, MacGyver said: https://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Issues/SexualOrientation/IESOGI/Other/Personal_testimonies.docx https://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/01/us/ex-gay-men-fight-view-that-homosexuality-cant-be-changed.html A member of my own extended family also overcame same-sex attraction through counseling and prayer. Thanks for this. One thing though, I cannot read the New York Times one because of the paywall. But the other one I did read through a few of them. But why are they all address to the same person. Is that person a clergy man/woman, or the therapist? Also, what are your feelings on transgender, I'm guessing it's the same as it is for gays. https://www.facebook.com/encircletogether/videos/638546577177524
MacGyver Posted December 14, 2021 Posted December 14, 2021 (edited) 6 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: I think it important that the Church of Jesus Christ continue to convey the message that all regardless of sexual orientation are welcome to come and partake of the blessings of the restored gospel so long as their behavior conforms to the commandments of God. I agree that the church shouldn't drive these people away. I do have a problem with those members who openly identify as LGBTQ, who go out of their way to flaunt their lifestyle and are actively trying to convince the members of their respective wards that there is nothing wrong with the LGBTQ lifestyle. I believe that there is a real danger with allowing this "activism" to go on at church. The church has to walk a real tight rope between including those who may be struggling with same-sex attraction and protecting the members, especially the children and youth, from being led astray down forbidden paths. Edited December 14, 2021 by MacGyver 1
MacGyver Posted December 14, 2021 Posted December 14, 2021 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: Thanks for this. One thing though, I cannot read the New York Times one because of the paywall. But the other one I did read through a few of them. But why are they all address to the same person. Is that person a clergy man/woman, or the therapist? Also, what are your feelings on transgender, I'm guessing it's the same as it is for gays. https://www.facebook.com/encircletogether/videos/638546577177524 The man the letters are addressed to is a lawyer for the UN I believe. I'm not sure what the context for the letters is. I assume that these individuals are trying to get the UN to stop trying to ban all conversion therapy. Here's another set of testimonials: https://changedmovement.com/ As for transgenders, I view this much the same way as I do gays, lesbians, and bisexuals. I think transgenderism is worse, though. It often leads to mutilating one's God-given body. Suicide and depression are off the charts for these individuals. They have very few prospects for happiness. It's obvious to me that transgenderism is a deception of the adversary designed to bring misery and suffering.
Olmec Donald Posted December 14, 2021 Posted December 14, 2021 (edited) 27 minutes ago, MacGyver said: It's obvious to me that transgenderism is a deception of the adversary designed to bring misery and suffering. It is obvious to me that judgmentalism is a deception of the adversary designed to bring misery and suffering. "A new commandment I give unto you, that ye judge one another." <- NOT what Jesus said. Edited December 14, 2021 by Olmec Donald 4
MacGyver Posted December 14, 2021 Posted December 14, 2021 1 minute ago, Olmec Donald said: It is obvious to me that judgmentalism is a deception of the adversary designed to bring misery and suffering. Jesus said to be careful that we judge righteously, not that we shouldn't judge at all. We are to judge good from evil. Transgenderism is clearly an evil snare of the adversary. Just look at the fruit.
Olmec Donald Posted December 14, 2021 Posted December 14, 2021 (edited) 20 minutes ago, MacGyver said: Jesus said to be careful that we judge righteously, not that we shouldn't judge at all. We are to judge good from evil. Jesus never meant for us to judge and condemn other people. 20 minutes ago, MacGyver said: Transgenderism is clearly an evil snare of the adversary. Just look at the fruit. I have two transgender kids. They were both morose for decades, and now they are both cheerful and outgoing and happy. Is that what you mean? * * * Are you Ahab? Edited December 14, 2021 by Olmec Donald 3
Canadiandude Posted December 14, 2021 Posted December 14, 2021 I think this might be Ahab, looking through what they’ve said elsewhere
MacGyver Posted December 14, 2021 Posted December 14, 2021 24 minutes ago, Olmec Donald said: Jesus never meant for us to judge and condemn other people. Jesus did not say that we should not judge others, only that we should be careful not judge unrighteously. I also wasn't judging others anyway. I was judging transgenderism as being a deception of the devil, which it most certainly is. 27 minutes ago, Olmec Donald said: I have two transgender kids. They were both morose for decades, and now they are both cheerful and outgoing and happy. Is that what you mean? I don't know anything about your kids. But I do know that those who embrace the transgender lifestyle, particularly those who take hormones or have surgery in an attempt to physically change their gender from the one God gave them, very often end up miserable and regret their decision. They have high rates of suicide and depression. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/ 1
Canadiandude Posted December 14, 2021 Posted December 14, 2021 On 12/12/2021 at 11:34 AM, Canadiandude said: No one cares. Correction: I guess several people here do care that the church can no longer legally practice or support conversion therapy in several regions. My bad. Must’ve forgotten what sub I was in. Ah well. Glad I live where I do.
MacGyver Posted December 14, 2021 Posted December 14, 2021 And no, I'm not this Ahab. I have no idea who he is or why people think that.
Tacenda Posted December 14, 2021 Posted December 14, 2021 3 minutes ago, MacGyver said: And no, I'm not this Ahab. I have no idea who he is or why people think that. Are you his relative. MacGyver, maybe you're not. If not, sorry. He's a poster that will change his avatar over and over to enable him to post on here, when he's been banned as Ahab.
MacGyver Posted December 14, 2021 Posted December 14, 2021 5 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Are you his relative. MacGyver, maybe you're not. If not, sorry. He's a poster that will change his avatar over and over to enable him to post on here, when he's been banned as Ahab. No, I don't know who is. Any similarities between us must be coincidental.
Chum Posted December 14, 2021 Posted December 14, 2021 12 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: It seems like insinuating that a new poster is really Ahab in sock puppet form has become an all-too quick and convenient means of well poisoning. I say we give MacGyver a chance You may not be aware of this but initial steps that indicate familiarity with the board - they just indicate familiarity with the board. 12 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: before jumping to a conclusion. Yeah. About that.
sunstoned Posted December 14, 2021 Posted December 14, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, MacGyver said: In my opinion when someone openly identifies as LGBTQ rather than saying that they are experiencing same-sex attraction and trying to overcome it, they are defining themselves by their weakness and temptation. I believe that identifying yourself by your temptation and weakness and telling yourself that there is nothing wrong with having these unnatural sexual desires leads to acting out on them. Which is why I wish the church would stick to calling it "same-sex attraction" and continue to try and help members who struggle with this to overcome it. Apparently the LGBTQ community does not identify with the "same-sex attraction" term. We should respect that. Edited December 14, 2021 by sunstoned 3
Olmec Donald Posted December 14, 2021 Posted December 14, 2021 (edited) 6 hours ago, MacGyver said: And no, I'm not this Ahab. I have no idea who he is or why people think that. Thanks for clearing that up, and I apologize for thinking you were someone else. 6 hours ago, MacGyver said: I also wasn't judging others anyway... Then I misunderstood you, and I apologize. * * * * Rather than trying to refute an internally-consistent modern-day Law of Moses, let me suggest that there may be a higher law which is also internally consistent. This higher law is pretty simple, it is that we love God and love one another. And God sets the tone by loving us first, but unfortunately we tend to be unaware of this. God's love is not something we earn. God's love is not achieved. God's love is not bestowed on some and withheld from others. God's love is not qualified for. Rather, God's love is RECOGNIZED. God's love has always been there and will always be there. God's love is our natural state, and when we are not aware of it, it is because we have erected barriers which hide its presence. The barriers to the awareness of God's love are all of our unloving thoughts. It matters not whether our unloving thoughts are right or wrong (and of course we think they are right), the price is the same: They obscure the presence of God's love. It matters not whether our unloving thoughts are justified or not (and of course we think they are justified), the price is the same: They obscure the presence of God's love. It matters not whether our unloving thoughts are big or small, the price is the same: They obscure the presence of God's love. The good news is, awareness of the presence of God's love is within reach for every one of us. All we have to do is give up all of our unloving thoughts. And that is like saying that we have to give up poison, because our unloving thoughts taste bad in our mouths and sicken our hearts. What a welcome relief it will be to exchange all of that bitterness for the sweetest of gifts which we can then give to all! Let us not value the valueless. Let us not hold our mistakes against ourselves, nor hold the mistakes of our brothers and sisters against them. Let us give up all of our unloving thoughts, be they towards a brother or a sister, or towards ourselves. The price of treasuring our unloving thoughts is too high. Edited December 14, 2021 by Olmec Donald 1
MacGyver Posted December 14, 2021 Posted December 14, 2021 19 hours ago, Teancum said: A fad? Or maybe because society does not marginalize this group as much as they used to these people are more open to identify what their sexuality really is. Do you have any science to back up your position? The scientific term for this phenomenon is social contagion. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3830455/ The following article discusses the connection between the sharp spike in the number of people who identify as LGBTQ and social contagion and pornography consumption: https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/why-are-young-adults-increasingly-identifying-as-bisexual/
MacGyver Posted December 14, 2021 Posted December 14, 2021 3 hours ago, Olmec Donald said: Thanks for clearing that up, and I apologize for thinking you were someone else. Then I misunderstood you, and I apologize. * * * * Rather than trying to refute an internally-consistent modern-day Law of Moses, let me suggest that there may be a higher law which is also internally consistent. This higher law is pretty simple, it is that we love God and love one another. And God sets the tone by loving us first, but unfortunately we tend to be unaware of this. God's love is not something we earn. God's love is not achieved. God's love is not bestowed on some and withheld from others. God's love is not qualified for. Rather, God's love is RECOGNIZED. God's love has always been there and will always be there. God's love is our natural state, and when we are not aware of it, it is because we have erected barriers which hide its presence. The barriers to the awareness of God's love are all of our unloving thoughts. It matters not whether our unloving thoughts are right or wrong (and of course we think they are right), the price is the same: They obscure the presence of God's love. It matters not whether our unloving thoughts are justified or not (and of course we think they are justified), the price is the same: They obscure the presence of God's love. It matters not whether our unloving thoughts are big or small, the price is the same: They obscure the presence of God's love. The good news is, awareness of the presence of God's love is within reach for every one of us. All we have to do is give up all of our unloving thoughts. And that is like saying that we have to give up poison, because our unloving thoughts taste bad in our mouths and sicken our hearts. What a welcome relief it will be to exchange all of that bitterness for the sweetest of gifts which we can then give to all! Let us not value the valueless. Let us not hold our mistakes against ourselves, nor hold the mistakes of our brothers and sisters against them. Let us give up all of our unloving thoughts, be they towards a brother or a sister, or towards ourselves. The price of treasuring our unloving thoughts is too high. Yes we should love everyone, regardless of whether we agree with their choices or not. We are to strive to have charity, the pure love of Christ, for all people. But I will add that condoning sin is not loving someone. We are to love the sinner while hating the sin. If we truly love someone, we will warn them of the dangers of pursuing a course that we know will lead to misery and suffering. We will also do all we can to help them overcome whatever challenges they are facing. And if we truly love someone we will continue to show love for them, even if they are not receptive to our efforts to warn and help them. In which case we can pray for the person and have trust in God to help them, while we continue to love. 4
Tacenda Posted December 14, 2021 Posted December 14, 2021 11 minutes ago, MacGyver said: The scientific term for this phenomenon is social contagion. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3830455/ The following article discusses the connection between the sharp spike in the number of people who identify as LGBTQ and social contagion and pornography consumption: https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/why-are-young-adults-increasingly-identifying-as-bisexual/ How'd I know, it's a religious bent article.
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