AP article on Church/Covid/vaccine’s dividing members

[bsjkki]

I know people on both sides of this issue. Some feel personally targeted because they are not vaccinated and feel their faith is being questioned. They have natural immunity even and feel they are being told they are not ‘following the prophet.’ One was told by their doctor not to get the vaccine. 
https://apnews.com/article/lifestyle-health-religion-coronavirus-pandemic-f42772097cf7557086f12b549e03b18a
 

Others feel, not getting vaccinated or wearing a mask is a selfish, unfaithful decision. Even after the letter, the wards I have been to, wear masks in a very limited way.

It’s an interesting article.

 

Edited August 31, 2021 by bsjkki

[The Nehor]

How many maskless people also defended the ‘one earring’ policy as a good test of whether someone is following the prophet and saw it as a valuable lesson in obedience over something relatively unimportant so they would be ready when something important comes along?

[Hamba Tuhan]

I am grateful we don't have America's issues!

[Bob Crockett]

This is really a bunch of hokum and bull sheet.  All President Nelson did was dispense reasonable advice.  Wear a mask and get a vaccination or not.  Use your head.  A good percentage of the adult population is not going to be reasonable, just as a considerable percentage of ignorant voters think that the vaccines are untested, the testing was a rush job, or the vaccines can kill.  That's the nature of society.  We shouldn't judge them.  The ignorant we will always have with us.

I was standing in line at a Cold Stone after our state rescinded the mask mandate.  I didn't have a mask on.  The guy in front of me went completely off and bonkers about me not having a mask and not standing six feet away from him and threatened me to a fight outside.  He was thirty years younger than me.  He soon exited the premises after it became apparent he was making a scene.  I was glad to not have to put up my dukes.  (I was not the most reasonable one; I kept telling him "I am going to do whatever I want" and then halved the distance between us. I have a lot of false courage when I am a head taller than than him.)

We need to be reasonable and flexible and not find reasons to say that the Church is questioning our faithfulness.     

Edited August 31, 2021 by Bob Crockett

[Robert J Anderson]

Do the unvaccinated still need to follow the prophet even when their doctors tell them that they do not need the vaccine or shouldn't get it due to health reasons?  What about children who have a negligible chance of death from this?  (the last time I looked, around 240 deaths in children and over 30 million cases)  Should children be forced to get a vaccine that is still in the experimental stages?  (the FDA letter authorizing the Pfizer vaccine still required certain testing to be performed)  I think the answer is to let everyone make their own decisions and not pressure people into something they don't want to do.  It might be a different story if the vaccine prevented the spread of the disease, but it doesn't.  Also, I was vaccinated and so should be protected if I catch it or so they tell me.  So, why should I worry about whether or not someone else wants to take a different path?

[strappinglad]

We recently had our Stake Conference with the Area President presiding. The leaders and the choir on the stand were all masked as a good example. The members in the congregation not so much. There was no social distancing as such and not many masks. I watched from home. 

Note: there are 8 cases of covid in our county of 11,000 + people. 

[Amulek]

21 minutes ago, Robert J Anderson said:

Do the unvaccinated still need to follow the prophet even when their doctors tell them that they do not need the vaccine or shouldn't get it due to health reasons? 

The letter from the First Presidency specifically mentioned following "the wise and thoughtful recommendations of medical experts and government leaders."

So, if one has been advised by competent medical authority to abstain from being vaccinated then they are following the prophet's guidance.

 

Quote

What about children who have a negligible chance of death from this?  (the last time I looked, around 240 deaths in children and over 30 million cases) 

Are you asking whether children should first perform a risk analysis and then decide whether or not they want to follow the prophet?

I suppose that could be something to consider. But I think the analysis would probably start by looking at the risks associated with the vaccine vs those associated with contracting the actual disease. If the risk of death among teens is negligible, well, the risk of death (or even serious side effects) from the vaccine is even more remote.

 

Quote

I think the answer is to let everyone make their own decisions and not pressure people into something they don't want to do. 

I think we need to try and persuade people to do what is best in terms of public health and safety.

 

Quote

I was vaccinated and so should be protected if I catch it or so they tell me.  So, why should I worry about whether or not someone else wants to take a different path?

This is kind of like saying, 'well, I wear a seat belt and don't drive while intoxicated, so why should I worry about whether or not someone else wants to take a different path?'

 

[Rain]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I am grateful we don't have America's issues!

I can understand this.  I've struggled with it too though - while I wish we didn't have these issues, I'm grateful to not have the issues of other countries.

[Amulek]

2 hours ago, bsjkki said:

Even after the letter, the wards I have been to, wear masks in a very limited way.

In our ward, which happens to be situated in a very red state/county, only a handful of people don't wear masks.

 

[Rain]

1 hour ago, Robert J Anderson said:

Do the unvaccinated still need to follow the prophet even when their doctors tell them that they do not need the vaccine or shouldn't get it due to health reasons? 

I have begun to wonder what percentage of people who are unvaccinated were actually told by their personal doctor not to get it.  

Anyone seen anything on this?

1 hour ago, Robert J Anderson said:

What about children who have a negligible chance of death from this? 

Since children can't yet receive the vaccine then it doesn't really matter as the prophet's council wouldn't apply...yet.

1 hour ago, Robert J Anderson said:

(the last time I looked, around 240 deaths in children and over 30 million cases)  Should children be forced to get a vaccine that is still in the experimental stages?  (the FDA letter authorizing the Pfizer vaccine still required certain testing to be performed)  I think the answer is to let everyone make their own decisions and not pressure people into something they don't want to do. 

I think that is part of the answer.  Pressure rarely works and it isn't the Lord’s way, but I do think that there is more to this than "the Lord told me not to do this" when you look along political lines in the US and how we differ from vaccine participation in other countries.  That should really have someone looking at our own spiritual feelings on the matter (on both sides).

1 hour ago, Robert J Anderson said:

It might be a different story if the vaccine prevented the spread of the disease, but it doesn't.  Also, I was vaccinated and so should be protected if I catch it or so they tell me.  So, why should I worry about whether or not someone else wants to take a different path?

Because in this matter what someone does or doesn't do can affect the health and life of others.

I do think those that are pro mask and vaccine need to tone down the overall push.  I think the strong voices, going after strangers etc works to set others not to wear masks and not to vaccinate more strongly. I say that as one who has had to work very hard at not doing the opposite of what I'm told to do.

Edited August 31, 2021 by Rain

[poptart]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

How many maskless people also defended the ‘one earring’ policy as a good test of whether someone is following the prophet and saw it as a valuable lesson in obedience over something relatively unimportant so they would be ready when something important comes along?

Hmmm, food for thought...

[HappyJackWagon]

I know a few people who cannot be vaccinated for health reasons. They wish they could be but they can't, so they don't. Anyone who knows their situation would support them in not getting vaccinated but most people would never know. The problem is the other 98% of unvaccinated who simply don't want the government telling them what to do or feeling they received personal revelation that they shouldn't get it because it's dangerous. 

It is true that every vaccine has some risk because peoples bodies are different, but overall the risk is pretty minimal. Still, the fear is real. I have to remind myself of that every time I find myself getting really annoyed with someone who refuses masking/vaccine.

[strappinglad]

Although numbers vary, most articles say that about 90% of people hospitalized with covid are unvaccinated . Some hospitals are now at capacity for ICU beds etc. what happens if a bus has a bad accident in that hospital's zone and 20 ICU beds are needed ASAP? Do they unhook the covid patients to make room? 

[Chum]

17 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

The problem is the other 98% of unvaccinated who [feel] that they shouldn't get it because it's dangerous. 

This after getting Tetanus and other recurring vaccines.  They live with a lifetime of evidence evidencing that modern vaccines aren't dangerous at all.

Maybe the message they need is that they should be aware - that they're highly susceptible to easily debunked lies.

[Peacefully]

13 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

Although numbers vary, most articles say that about 90% of people hospitalized with covid are unvaccinated . Some hospitals are now at capacity for ICU beds etc. what happens if a bus has a bad accident in that hospital's zone and 20 ICU beds are needed ASAP? Do they unhook the covid patients to make room? 

The parents of my co-worker ended up with Covid even though both were vaccinated. Some of their family members didn’t want to be vaccinated, including an adult son who lives with them. The mom had relatively minor symptoms, although she was given fluids at the ER. The dad ended up in the hospital. He was given Remdesivir and oxygen. He improved and was released last Friday. He collapsed on Saturday but is still recovering at home. My co-worker felt the hospital should have kept him longer but it was probably a combo of the rooms were needed for sicker patients and him wanting to come home. Hoping for a full recovery for them. 

[bOObOO]

2 hours ago, Robert J Anderson said:

Do the unvaccinated still need to follow the prophet even when their doctors tell them that they do not need the vaccine or shouldn't get it due to health reasons?  What about children who have a negligible chance of death from this?  (the last time I looked, around 240 deaths in children and over 30 million cases)  Should children be forced to get a vaccine that is still in the experimental stages?  (the FDA letter authorizing the Pfizer vaccine still required certain testing to be performed)  I think the answer is to let everyone make their own decisions and not pressure people into something they don't want to do. 

Everyone is being allowed to make their own decisions, even with other people talking about what they think people should do.  Nobody is forcing anyone else to get the vaccine.  Everyone is still free to say No! and disregard the counsel of others.  .

2 hours ago, Robert J Anderson said:

It might be a different story if the vaccine prevented the spread of the disease, but it doesn't.  Also, I was vaccinated and so should be protected if I catch it or so they tell me.  So, why should I worry about whether or not someone else wants to take a different path?

I was vaccinated too but I am still bothered about being required to wear a mask to go into a store or a restaurant.  I know I could choose to just not go into those places but I would rather go in and without being harassed for not wearing a mask.  And the whole mask requirement now is mainly because of the people who have not been vaccinated.  They are mainly the ones getting really sick and going into hospitals.  So we are required to wear masks now mainly because we are trying to keep the unvaccinated from getting sick.  We who have been vaccinated are not as much at risk of getting seriously sick anymore, because we have been vaccinated.  But we still have to put up with wearing masks because of the people who have not been vaccinated.  And to try to make more space in hospitals for the people who are not there because of COVID-19, who go to a hospital for some other reason.  So I blame most of this mess on the unvaccinated, those who refuse to get the vaccine and then get sick with COVID-19, who most likely would not need to go to a hospital if they would simply get the vaccine.

Edited August 31, 2021 by bOObOO

[Tacenda]

26 minutes ago, bOObOO said:

Everyone is being allowed to make their own decisions, even with other people talking about what they think people should do.  Nobody is forcing anyone else to get the vaccine.  Everyone is still free to say No! and disregard the counsel of others.  .

I was vaccinated too but I am still bothered about being required to wear a mask to go into a store or a restaurant.  I know I could choose to just not go into those places but I would rather go in and without being harassed for not wearing a mask.  And the whole mask requirement now is mainly because of the people who have not been vaccinated.  They are mainly the ones getting really sick and going into hospitals.  So we are required to wear masks now mainly because we are trying to keep the unvaccinated from getting sick.  We who have been vaccinated are not as much at risk of getting seriously sick anymore, because we have been vaccinated.  But we still have to put up with wearing masks because of the people who have not been vaccinated.  And to try to make more space in hospitals for the people who are not there because of COVID-19, who go to a hospital for some other reason.  So I blame most of this mess on the unvaccinated, those who refuse to get the vaccine and then get sick with COVID-19, who most likely would not need to go to a hospital if they would simply get the vaccine.

The more I read things, the more I think masks and vaccines need to go hand in hand. Especially reading about those that get it even if they've been vaccinated. And reading on another thread that those that have had covid have a higher immunity, that's a surprise. And is being compared to chicken pox and those days of trying to be by someone that has it. https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/323728#what-is-chickenpox They say in the article that it's more risky to get chicken pox than just avoiding it by getting the vaccine. I assume this is the same thing for covid.

And those that got chicken pox are susceptible to getting shingles later in life.

The thing that makes me happy about getting the vaccine is that those that are un-vaccinated end up dying more than those that are vaccinated. Not happy that they died, just happy that the vaccine is a good thing.

Edited August 31, 2021 by Tacenda

[Chum]

2 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

All President Nelson did was dispense reasonable advice.  Wear a mask and get a vaccination or not.

This is true except for the Or Not part. That part is fully untrue as Pres Nelson never taught to not get a vaccination.

disclaimer: I am against attributing false teachings to the Prophet.

[bOObOO]

2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

The more I read things, the more I think masks and vaccines need to go hand in hand. Especially reading about those that get it even if they've been vaccinated. And reading that those that have had covid have a higher immunity, that's a surprise. And is being compared to chicken pox and those days of trying to be by someone that has it. https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/323728#what-is-chickenpox Say in the article that it's more risky to get Chicken Pox than just avoiding it by getting the vaccine. I assume this is the same thing for covid.

And those that got chicken pox are susceptible to getting shingles later in life. Just like those that are un-vaccinated end up dying more than those that are vaccinated. 

My understanding is that if all people were vaccinated against COVID-19 then there would be little to no need to wear masks, because even if someone got COVID while vaccinated it would most likely not be a big deal for most people.  There are always exceptions of course and some people would still get very sick from COVID even if vaccinated, but there would likely be no mask requirement and things would be more normal in society.  The mask requirement now is mostly due to the unvaccinated.

[Tacenda]

Just now, bOObOO said:

My understanding is that if all people were vaccinated against COVID-19 then there would be little to no need to wear masks, because even if someone got COVID while vaccinated it would most likely not be a big deal for most people.  There are always exceptions of course and some people would still get very sick from COVID even if vaccinated, but there would likely be no mask requirement and things would be more normal in society.  The mask requirement now is mostly due to the unvaccinated.

But it looks like those that are vaccinated can still get it with the harsher variants that keep barging in. So therefore wouldn't a vaccinated person feel the need to protect people since they can have it and usually it's pretty mild and they can spread it, while not knowing they have it? I was like you thinking I didn't need to wear my mask especially when you read signs in front of the grocery stores or others that say if un-vaccinated to wear your mask. But like everything during this pandemic things are constantly changing. And I need to be better at wearing mine now.

[Chum]

3 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

I didn't have a mask on.  The guy in front of me went completely off and bonkers about me not having a mask and not standing six feet away from him

We don't need to choose between wearing a mask and jerkish behavior. We can follow the Prophet's direction to Do All We Can To Reduce Covid Numbers In Our Area by following Pres Nelson's example of wearing a mask and being vaccinated - and we do these things without being a jerk to people who are nurturing Covid outbreaks.

We can have it all. How sweet is that?

[The Nehor]

There are a lot of people who “cannot be vaccinated for health reasons” that actually can. There are legitimate reasons not to take the vaccine. Allergic reaction to the components is the most obvious one. The immunocompromised SHOULD get it.

3 hours ago, Robert J Anderson said:

Do the unvaccinated still need to follow the prophet even when their doctors tell them that they do not need the vaccine or shouldn't get it due to health reasons?  What about children who have a negligible chance of death from this?  (the last time I looked, around 240 deaths in children and over 30 million cases)  Should children be forced to get a vaccine that is still in the experimental stages?  (the FDA letter authorizing the Pfizer vaccine still required certain testing to be performed)  I think the answer is to let everyone make their own decisions and not pressure people into something they don't want to do.  It might be a different story if the vaccine prevented the spread of the disease, but it doesn't.  Also, I was vaccinated and so should be protected if I catch it or so they tell me.  So, why should I worry about whether or not someone else wants to take a different path?

Children seem to be more susceptible to Delta and even if they don’t die some are sustaining damage. Possibly permanent damage to mental acuity and physical abilities. Children getting vaccinated also protects those who are more susceptible.

The vaccine is not immunity. Vaccines do not have a 100% effectiveness rate. The way you eradicate or control diseases is through herd immunity which needs higher vaccination numbers. Also, it could get you killed. If you are in an area where the hospitals are swamped and have a heart problem or break a bone or get injured in a car accident or have some other problem you may not get treatment because there are not enough doctors and nurses to cover you and all the covid patients.

The idea that we are all islands seems ingrained in us to the point where we seem to argue for it even when it is not true.

 

[The Nehor]

Meidastouch did a short video on the people who are the primary source for all all the hysteria about the vaccine not being safe.

In short they are unqualified and they lie a lot.

[bOObOO]

12 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

But it looks like those that are vaccinated can still get it with the harsher variants that keep barging in. So therefore wouldn't a vaccinated person feel the need to protect people since they can have it and usually it's pretty mild and they can spread it, while not knowing they have it?

When a vaccinated person gets COVID-19 most don't get very sick from it.  They get it but it's not as bad as it would be without that vaccination.  And yes it would be good to try to protect people who have not been vaccinated, which is the main reason the vaccinated are wearing masks now... to try to protect those who have not been vaccinated.  But if everyone was vaccinated there would be little to no need to wear masks because even if someone got it while vaccinated, in most cases it would not be very bad. 

12 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I was like you thinking I didn't need to wear my mask especially when you read signs in front of the grocery stores or others that say if un-vaccinated to wear your mask. But like everything during this pandemic things are constantly changing. And I need to be better at wearing mine now.

Yes, I think before we were thinking more about our own risk and health, while now we are thinking more about others.  We who are vaccinated don't really need masks to protect ourselves.  We do need them to try to protect others, though, especially those who have not been vaccinated.  And if everyone would get vaccinated we wouldn't really need masks to protect others because in most cases the vaccine helps enough without needing to wear a mask.  The vaccine even helps those who get COVID-19.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

This is really a bunch of hokum and bull sheet.  All President Nelson did was dispense reasonable advice.  Wear a mask and get a vaccination or not. 

CFR