AP article on Church/Covid/vaccine’s dividing members

[BlueDreams]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

I know people on both sides of this issue. Some feel personally targeted because they are not vaccinated and feel their faith is being questioned. They have natural immunity even and feel they are being told they are not ‘following iI prophet.’ One was told by their doctor not to get the vaccine. 
https://apnews.com/article/lifestyle-health-religion-coronavirus-pandemic-f42772097cf7557086f12b549e03b18a
 

This is probably a bit of a controversial response: but technically they're not following the prophet on this specific issue. I definitely wouldn't go so far as to call them apostate unless they're actively preaching that the prophets are wrong/being misled and that we should move against them and/or leave the church in protest (I don't know if I've heard someone whose frustrated with the non-vaxxers overtly claim that...though I'm sure they probably exist somewhere).  But it's hard to say they're following the prophet when the first presidency have been pretty dang consistent in both example and speech about covid, following sound science, taking social distancing/masking measures, and getting vaccinated when you can. So if you didn't heed that, found questionable or heavily biased resources that biased one's info stream, only wore masks or socially distanced when it was externally enforced (and then chose to "wear" it as some variety of a chin strap), and continue to not get vaccinated....then yeah, that's not following the counsel of the prophet. Nelson basically said go left, avoid turning onto this one way street, and make a small u-turn in this new region. And they effective said I'll go straight, might turn on a one way if I don't see any other cars coming my way, and therefore will avoid the u-turn....I feel pretty confident in my own knowledge on this.

(note: these are the ones who have not had legitimate reasons to wait or not get it. For example, those who were pregnant in the spring and wanted to wait for more research for pregnant people to come out before getting the shot, or have a waiting period because they got covid, etd. Okay I get that....but when the medical consensus changed, or the waiting period was over, that needed to change too. There are very very few people who really shouldn't get the shot at this point that are over the age of 12. Most people who are still holding out don't fit that category.)

 That said, at some point most of us don't "follow the prophet." I know I've disagreed and still actively disagree on some things prophets and apostles have said...or at least common interpretations of them. I think for many (not all) that fall into the point of not following prophetic counsel in such an obvious way are may often be the sort who also aren't used to doing it and often judged those that have in the past. In short they're more likely to be validated in their worldview than pressed on it in the faith community. I would assume having that as a new experience has got to be extremely uncomfortable. 

 

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Others feel, not getting vaccinated or wearing a mask is a selfish, unfaithful decision. Even after the letter, the wards I have been to, wear masks in a very limited way.

It’s an interesting article.

 

From what my RS prez said, mask wearing went up but there's still a minority who don't wear them. I still don't go to church outside of young women's, so I'm not sure what the wards look like. 

I won't lie, I judge those who are not vaxxed at this point. A lot. Though my views on those choosing (emphasis on choosing as opposed to willing or truly open to get it but for some reason can't or have a hard time doing so for reasons outside their control) to not get the vaccine based on some variant of the term "freedom" and "choice" while following selective or questionable information sources still holds some nuance while I'm judging the heck out of them. Minus when I'm irritated and venting to my husband. I prefer self-centered over selfish, stubborn/misguided (depending) over unfaithful, and foolish or a bad judge of info/risk assessments over stupid. 

 

With luv,

BD

[carbon dioxide]

In the end,. COVID-19 will be doing most of the educating on the importance of vaccines and masks.  The hospitals are full of new converts to the importance of vaccines.  It is sad that people have to get to that point before being shown the errors of their ways.   I am sure when the hospital bills come, it will further impress upon them that an ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure.

[MustardSeed]

I like the ad that says "You trust us with your (genital) - trust us with the vaccine"

My best friend is anti vacc and anti government.  My husband voted for Trump again.  I still love both of them.  But I find church less and less appealing, because I can't stand the way people assume that we all think exactly alike.  I liked church better when we could all pretend that life didn't exist outside of mormonism on Sundays and that the universe revolved around what we thought and believed together.  

I still love Jesus though.  

 

[bsjkki]

4 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

I won't lie, I judge those who are not vaxxed at this point.

What if they’re the naturally immune. Studies show they are more protected than the vaxxed? 

[The Nehor]

All of this has happened before and it will happen again.

[The Nehor]

3 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

What if they’re the naturally immune. Studies show they are more protected than the vaxxed? 

The vaccine would not cancel out immunity developed from being infected.

[bsjkki]

1 minute ago, MustardSeed said:

I like the ad that says "You trust us with your (genital) - trust us with the vaccine"

My best friend is anti vacc and anti government.  My husband voted for Trump again.  I still love both of them.  But I find church less and less appealing, because I can't stand the way people assume that we all think exactly alike.  I liked church better when we could all pretend that life didn't exist outside of mormonism on Sundays and that the universe revolved around what we thought and believed together.  

I still love Jesus though.  

 

I know people who feel the same way except from the other side of it. I’m with you about keeping church focused on curriculum. But, there is always some yahoo who likes to stir the pot. 
 

On the other hand, I’m on this forum because I could not ask ‘real’ questions in Sunday School even when they were about church things. That is a bit frustrating too. Sometimes I wish we had a ‘hard topics’ Sunday School class or support group or something. I bet they think everyone would go inactive. Lol. It would be lively though! 

[bsjkki]

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The vaccine would not cancel out immunity developed from being infected.

But why do they have to take it if they don’t really need it? Yes, it makes them ‘more’ immune but they are already far better off than the vaxxed. There is a low risk of complications or even death with the vaccine so why take the risk if you are already fine. 

[bOObOO]

2 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

But why do they have to take it if they don’t really need it? Yes, it makes them ‘more’ immune but they are already far better off than the vaxxed. There is a low risk of complications or even death with the vaccine so why take the risk if you are already fine. 

COVID-19 = very bad.  Vaccine = good.  So taking the vaccine to help avoid getting COVID-19 is a good thing to do.

 

[bsjkki]

2 minutes ago, bOObOO said:

COVID-19 = very bad.  Vaccine = good.  So taking the vaccine to help avoid getting COVID-19 is a good thing to do.

 

They already had covid. They have natural immunity. Studies show they are more protected than the vaxxed.

[The Nehor]

9 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

But why do they have to take it if they don’t really need it? Yes, it makes them ‘more’ immune but they are already far better off than the vaxxed. There is a low risk of complications or even death with the vaccine so why take the risk if you are already fine. 

Because the odds of the vaccine causing a problem are minuscule and the vaccine might augment the naturally acquired immunity to some degree. Most likely having both would make you more resistant to future infection.

[Tacenda]

23 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

All of this has happened before and it will happen again.

Your post reminds me of the third radio anti-vaxxer to have died from covid a few days ago.  https://www.kptv.com/conservative-radio-host-who-dubbed-himself-mr-anti-vax-dies-from-covid-19/article_c037b158-5533-55b2-8dc1-3720d87d9b59.html 

ETA: Here's an article to go along with your post, I really really want to post on FB but am nervous to. https://www.gavi.org/vaccineswork/long-view-ye-olde-anti-vaxxers

Edited August 31, 2021 by Tacenda

[bsjkki]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

Most likely having both would make you more resistant to future infection

This is true. The Kentucky study proved it. But, like Europe, the US should accept  natural immunity in Iieu of vaccine. If you follow the science. 

[bOObOO]

21 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

They already had covid. They have natural immunity. Studies show they are more protected than the vaxxed.

Still wood be good to get vaccinated because the vaccine is a good thing and the more good things we do the better off we usually are and will be.  I do not believe it is ever possible to have too much of a good thing.

[The Nehor]

25 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Your post reminds me of the third radio anti-vaxxer to have died from covid a few days ago.  https://www.kptv.com/conservative-radio-host-who-dubbed-himself-mr-anti-vax-dies-from-covid-19/article_c037b158-5533-55b2-8dc1-3720d87d9b59.html 

ETA: Here's an article to go along with your post, I really really want to post on FB but am nervous to. https://www.gavi.org/vaccineswork/long-view-ye-olde-anti-vaxxers

There have been more than three now.

[The Nehor]

22 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

This is true. The Kentucky study proved it. But, like Europe, the US should accept  natural immunity in Iieu of vaccine. If you follow the science. 

Why?

[bOObOO]

22 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

This is true. The Kentucky study proved it. But, like Europe, the US should accept  natural immunity in Iieu of vaccine. If you follow the science. 

I wonder if someone who is naturally immune to a plague can get a card from a doctor that states the card holder is naturally immune to a plague.  That would be nifty.  Then science would support people with cards saying the card holder has immunity.

[bsjkki]

5 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Why?

Already explained. 

[BlueDreams]

51 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

What if they’re the naturally immune. Studies show they are more protected than the vaxxed? 

Not the ones i'm reading. Most the ones I find or epidemiologists I find note that they have protection, it's less consistent or strong than those who received just vaccination, and would be stronger than the vaxxed if they got at least a single dose due to hybrid immune responses (or something like that....can't remember the exact term). THere's also a solid chance that that the naturally immunities are even less effective if they had covid earlier in the pandemic and/or with the alpha variant. 

So after the 90 day wait, they really should go in and get a booster shot. 

 

With luv,

BD

[Bob Crockett]

OK.   Not an "or not."  But how is the advice he has given any different than countless other private and public health officials?

[pogi]

5 hours ago, Robert J Anderson said:

Do the unvaccinated still need to follow the prophet even when their doctors tell them that they do not need the vaccine or shouldn't get it due to health reasons? 

I keep hearing people say their doctor told them not to get the vaccine or shouldn't due to health reasons.  There is literally only 1 contraindication and reason a person should not, or could not, be vaccinated - they have a severe allergy to one of the components of the vaccine.   How common is that?  Around 2 - 11 cases per 1 million doses.  It is extremely rare.  If someone has a true anaphylactic allergy to any component of the vaccine, no, they are not expected to get vaccinated.   But somehow this legitimate excuse is popping up in statistically disproportionate numbers.  

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/Pfizer-BioNTech.html

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2777417

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What about children who have a negligible chance of death from this?  

Far fewer have died or been hospitalized from Hep A - which is an extremely mild (and mostly asymptomatic) disease in children, yet most school districts require Hep A vaccination.  People have a hard time thinking in terms of PUBLIC health.  Not only is it good for public health, and if it truly is safer for children than the wild virus, and if it reduces disruption in school - then why the heck not? 

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I think the answer is to let everyone make their own decisions and not pressure people into something they don't want to do. 

The prophet disagrees.  Of course everyone should make their own decision, as we still have agency.  However, the pressure is on - the prophet has placed pressure on us, the medical field has placed pressure on us, and society should continue to put pressure on us. 

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It might be a different story if the vaccine prevented the spread of the disease, but it doesn't. 

It actually has been shown to reduce (not eliminate) the risk of transmission.

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Also, I was vaccinated and so should be protected if I catch it or so they tell me.  So, why should I worry about whether or not someone else wants to take a different path?

Because we care about the health and well-being of our community.  We care about our hospital workers.  We care if non-covid patients care is reduced in the ICU, or if they are turned away because there are not enough beds.

 

Edited August 31, 2021 by pogi

[bsjkki]

16 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

Not the ones i'm reading. Most the ones I find or epidemiologists I find note that they have protection, it's less consistent or strong than those who received just vaccination, and would be stronger than the vaxxed if they got at least a single dose due to hybrid immune responses (or something like that....can't remember the exact term). THere's also a solid chance that that the naturally immunities are even less effective if they had covid earlier in the pandemic and/or with the alpha variant. 

So after the 90 day wait, they really should go in and get a booster shot. 

 

With luv,

BD

Real world stories show otherwise. I would love to find US numbers on this but they are very hard to find. 

The vaccines lose their potency faster than natural immunity

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/312538

Edited August 31, 2021 by bsjkki

[pogi]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

This is true. The Kentucky study proved it. But, like Europe, the US should accept  natural immunity in Iieu of vaccine. If you follow the science. 

If the vaccine makes you 2.5 times less likely to get infected than natural immunity alone - why not get it?  It will reduce community spread. When we are dealing with overwhelmed hospitals and something as nasty as COVID, every little bit helps.  When one infected person can easily turn into 5 other infected people on average, it makes sense to stop every infection possible.  Especially when the vaccine is extremely safe. 

Edited August 31, 2021 by pogi

[The Nehor]

29 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

OK.   Not an "or not."  But how is the advice he has given any different than countless other private and public health officials?

He is a prophet.

[The Nehor]

My recommendation was to use the kpop people who drowned out Proud Boy communications during the height of the BLM protests by overrunning every channel they tried to use with kpop stuff.

This works too though.