Calm Posted June 18, 2021 Posted June 18, 2021 Don’t have time to read this one, but looks interesting: https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1027&context=honors
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 18, 2021 Posted June 18, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Calm said: There may be someone (I am one, there may be others) wanting to give a substantial answer to him that may include obscure quotes, but not to fault find or nitpick, but to inform. Searching in (and then quoting from) the Journal of Discourses is such an onerous task, but vol. I isn't looking too great so far. The earliest references to Catholicism come from John Taylor's report on his experiences in Europe (pp. 22-23): Quote Infidelity prevails there to a great extent, and at the same a great deal of a certain kind of religion, a sort of Catholicism; not the Catholicism that was, but which is. Men have got sick of it, and look upon it as moonshine and folly. You may divide the people into three classes -- the most religious class are the women; from observation you would judge that they attend to the affairs of the souls of their husbands, as well as their own. The fact is, the men care little about it themselves. You will find nothing but women in the places of worship there, while on the other hand, if you go out to the public promenades, and theatres, and public amusements on Sunday, you will see men by the thousands; and if you judge of their religion by their actions, you would consider that the theatre and public amusements are their places of worship; at the same time, that the Church is the place to do penance, and that the women do it ... The Protestants talk a great deal about Catholic priests, but I believe they are much more honest in the sight of man, and will do more for their pay, than any Protestant minister you can find. You will find them up at five o'clock in the morning, saying mass, and attending to what they consider are their religious duties -- visiting the sick, and going among fevers and plagues, where Protestant ministers dare not go ... The idea of taking Protestantism among the French people is nonsense, for one Catholic priest could prevail over fifty Protestants. The Catholic priests are more intelligent, they know the basis upon which their church is founded, and they can reason upon principles the Protestants cannot enter into ... When I was in Boulogne, some Protestant ministers were afraid lest I should make a division among them; they were fearful lest I should show up some of their follies, and the Catholics would laugh at them. One of these Jesuit priests came to me; he was a well educated man. In speaking on these discussions, says he, when they ask about the character of your founders, just examine into theirs, and I will furnish you all the testimony you want. I told him I was much obliged to him, but I could attend to my own business. I thought if I could not get along, and defend "Mormonism" without the help of a Jesuit priest, it was a poor case. Almost all of the other references I can find lump Protestants together with their 'mother', the Catholic Church, in addressing insufficiencies of doctrine or practice. No mention of wealth anywhere, just lack of revelation and/or proper ordinances. A few other passages stand out. I believe that this is Brigham Young (I'm struggling to get the beginning of the sermon to load) speaking on p. 155: Quote I do not believe that all the nations that worship various kinds of idols, in different parts of the earth, and know nothing about the true God, will be consigned to be burned in the fire hereafter, because they know no better than worship as they do. I cannot receive any such ideas into my mind. Although I was going to say I am not a Universalist, but I am, and I am also a Presbyterian, and a Roman Catholic, and a Methodist, in short, I believe in every true principle that is imbibed by any person or sect, and reject the false. If there is any truth in heaven, earth, or hell, I want to embrace it, I care not what shape it comes in to me, who brings it, or who believes in it, whether it is popular or unpopular. Truth, eternal truth, I wish to float in and enjoy ... The Catholics have many pieces of truth; so have the Protestants, the Mahometans, and Heathens ... And this is definitely Brigham Young on pp. 263-63: Quote You may say that you do not believe in God. Well, it is your privilege to believe as you like; you can believe in the Methodists' God, that has neither body, parts, nor passions (which amounts to nothing at all), if you please. But one may say, "I belong to the holy Catholic Church." You have a right to belong to what Church you please. I'm happy for anyone who cares to to tackle the subsequent volumes. Edited June 18, 2021 by Hamba Tuhan 2
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 18, 2021 Posted June 18, 2021 (edited) Duplicate. Edited June 18, 2021 by Hamba Tuhan
JAHS Posted June 18, 2021 Posted June 18, 2021 8 hours ago, sunstoned said: I really doubt that. You really don't know what faithful tithe-paying member care or don't care about. It does seem that you are being very defensive about this topic. I am just answering the questions. I don' think that is being defensive. 2
Harry T. Clark Posted June 18, 2021 Posted June 18, 2021 13 hours ago, JAHS said: Most tithe payers are not claiming they deserve to know. Mostly just the critics are saying that. Most members trust prophets of God to not to squander the donations given. If they did mishandle the money they would have to answer to God for it and I am sure they would not want that to happen. I don't see how more disclosure would make more money available. They would probably handle it the same as always. To suggest differently would mean that they are mishandling the money now. Prophets are fallible, correct? So, we should be able to take a look at what they are doing as a check. Disclosure, however, would almost assuredly be a positive thing as we would see how they are correctly handling the money and it could be an example to the rest of us. Also, I'd like to know what the point of saving billions is. What do they see? Why not put the money to use solving some of the world's problems? 1
Nofear Posted June 18, 2021 Posted June 18, 2021 Just now, Harry T. Clark said: Prophets are fallible, correct? So, we should be able to take a look at what they are doing as a check. Disclosure, however, would almost assuredly be a positive thing as we would see how they are correctly handling the money and it could be an example to the rest of us. Also, I'd like to know what the point of saving billions is. What do they see? Why not put the money to use solving some of the world's problems? Let's just give it all back to the membership, active or not. That would enrich the membership who (many) have given so much. $1E11/15E6 = $6667 Or, we could be more generous and give it to the US population. $1E11/ 328E6 = $305 I can think of nothing more important to do with such vast amount of moneys. Or maybe the Church could donate it all to cover approximately a tithe of the trillions of dollars proposed budget. I mean, if the Church with it's vast wealth could solve so many world problems with its Smaug horde, imagine what could be done if we just combined it with the (deficit) spending of the US government!?
jkwilliams Posted June 18, 2021 Posted June 18, 2021 10 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: A point that you've made abundantly clear in your 36 (so far) posts on a thread discussing the Church's finances. You’re right. I don’t talk about the church or even think about it, except when I’m in this board. Then I get sucked into heated discussions about a topic I wish I had ignored.
JAHS Posted June 18, 2021 Posted June 18, 2021 7 minutes ago, Harry T. Clark said: Prophets are fallible, correct? So, we should be able to take a look at what they are doing as a check. Disclosure, however, would almost assuredly be a positive thing as we would see how they are correctly handling the money and it could be an example to the rest of us. Also, I'd like to know what the point of saving billions is. What do they see? Why not put the money to use solving some of the world's problems? Well they have a team of independent auditors and professional financial team who are watching things all the time to make sure nothing is going wrong. I kind of doubt that the regular member is going to be able to understand and interpret all the details of the finances. I have looked at the church finances that are disclosed for other countries that require it and find it difficult to make sense out of it. And they are putting some of it to good use helping to solve some problems. They are not a charity; they are a religion that participates in charitable causes. Here is a list of things in the news that they did just during the month of May: * The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints distributes 20,000 pounds of food to nonprofits * Church donations aiding UNICEF’s role in global effort to provide 2 billion COVID-19 vaccinations * Church donates 8,000 toys and books for migrant children at Long Beach Convention Center * Church Donation Helping to Feed Refugees Settling in Houston * The Church Donates Oxygen, Medical Supplies and Food to Support Brazil During COVID-19 * The Church Donates Over US$4 Million to Help Bring Oxygen and COVID-19 Relief to India Every month is like that. And that is only things that are actually reported in the news. 4
Glenn101 Posted June 18, 2021 Posted June 18, 2021 4 hours ago, Calm said: I don’t know. Wouldn’t be surprised as I believe many brought anti catholic beliefs with them when converted, unfortunately baptism may clean the spirit, but it doesn’t do a data purge of false beliefs and ideas. From the footnotes, this seems like an interesting article, but don’t have access myself. It might have info on your question. https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.5406/dialjmormthou.51.2.0061#metadata_info_tab_contents I was able to download the article and have perused the first couple of pages. It does not convey or hint at any widespread animus or prejudice against Catholics. I will read the entire essay when time permits. A quote from the article: Quote Gradually, though, even such passive missionary efforts seem to have receded from Utah Catholicism. One reason for that was that as Scanlan (and presumably other Utah Catholics as well) got better acquainted with his Mormon neighbors, despite whatever “superstition and fanaticism” he might have found in their theology, he learned that the people themselves were honest, hardworking, and moral and were living a species of Christianity not too different from his own. And another: Quote Often, in those travels, he was able to find hotel and restaurant accommodations, but on other occasions he could not and found himself dependent upon the hospitality of isolated Mormon farm and ranch families. Invariably, he found that hospitality warmly extended, with his hosts sometimes curious to learn about Catholicism to the extent that he would be invited to give talks about it in Mormon churches. I expect to find conflicts of some sort elsewhere in the essay, human nature being what it is. Glenn 2
Teancum Posted June 18, 2021 Posted June 18, 2021 13 hours ago, smac97 said: Are you also fine if the Church does not talk about donations it gives? Sure.
Teancum Posted June 18, 2021 Posted June 18, 2021 12 hours ago, ksfisher said: The non-profit that I work for receives several million dollars worth of in-kind donations each year from the church. You don’t know this because it’s not publicized. Most NFPs I am aware of do some sort of accounting or report on such things.
let’s roll Posted June 18, 2021 Posted June 18, 2021 I invite any “faithful tithe payer” with an inclination to request greater “financial transparency” with respect to how their tithes are spent to consider how that inclination would manifest itself if we were asked to live the law of consecration. If I seek to counsel those with stewardship over the portion of my increase that I pay as tithing can I have confidence in my willingness to give all that I have to God, knowing that the stewardship over my consecrated assets will be in the hands of the same leaders who have stewardship my tithes? Will I consecrate all that i have only if I am told how all that I consecrate is dispersed? My understanding of the covenants I’ve made to tithe and to consecrate is that they are covenants of unconditional, not conditional, submission. And if unconditional, I have no need for the Church to disclose to me how my tithes or consecration are disbursed. 2
Teancum Posted June 18, 2021 Posted June 18, 2021 14 hours ago, ttribe said: Every hill is worth dying on, man. Every. Single. One. It does seem that way.
Popular Post bluebell Posted June 18, 2021 Popular Post Posted June 18, 2021 20 minutes ago, let’s roll said: I invite any “faithful tithe payer” with an inclination to request greater “financial transparency” with respect to how their tithes are spent to consider how that inclination would manifest itself if we were asked to live the law of consecration. If I seek to counsel those with stewardship over the portion of my increase that I pay as tithing can I have confidence in my willingness to give all that I have to God, knowing that the stewardship over my consecrated assets will be in the hands of the same leaders who have stewardship my tithes? Will I consecrate all that i have only if I am told how all that I consecrate is dispersed? My understanding of the covenants I’ve made to tithe and to consecrate is that they are covenants of unconditional, not conditional, submission. And if unconditional, I have no need for the Church to disclose to me how my tithes or consecration are disbursed. This is a good point. If we are commanded by God to tithe, regardless of how the money is spent, then we need to contemplate how knowing how the money is spent would matter? This isn't to argue that there is never a reason to know how the money is spent. It's to ponder what the purpose of that information would be. And to confront and acknowledge why we would want it, and what we would do with it. 7
ttribe Posted June 18, 2021 Posted June 18, 2021 13 hours ago, JAHS said: If all the finances would be made known most likely the church critics and their armchair quarterbacking will misquote and misinterpret the numbers somehow to support their criticisms, so why do it just to satisfy their curiosity and feed the hate? Like I said most active faithful tithe-paying members simply would not care to or need to know the numbers. If they do then they are paying tithing for the wrong reason. My opinion of course. There it is again - "The critics will misuse the information!" You may as well hide ALL information then because the critics are certainly 'misusing' all kinds of information that the church puts out there. No, it's not about looking for another source for criticism; there's plenty of that. Transparency is about accountability. That's the whole story. 1
Teancum Posted June 18, 2021 Posted June 18, 2021 14 hours ago, Fether said: Even those donations are the church’s discretion Yep. Thu my frequency of giving FO has been reduced but I till do give periodically.
JAHS Posted June 18, 2021 Posted June 18, 2021 9 minutes ago, ttribe said: There it is again - "The critics will misuse the information!" You may as well hide ALL information then because the critics are certainly 'misusing' all kinds of information that the church puts out there. No, it's not about looking for another source for criticism; there's plenty of that. Transparency is about accountability. That's the whole story. To require accountability means you don't trust all the church prophets, accountants, and auditors to do their job correctly and ethically. I suppose if enough church members asked for it they would put out something to look at, but so far there just aren't enough active tithe-paying members demanding it. 1
ttribe Posted June 18, 2021 Posted June 18, 2021 2 minutes ago, JAHS said: To require accountability means you don't trust all the church prophets, accountants, and auditors to do their job correctly and ethically. On the contrary, I've said numerous times that I think the church employs some top notch professionals. But, accountability is not only about ethics. Mistakes happen. Controls are overridden. Speaking as someone who has actually been an auditor, who has taught auditing at the university level, who has done academic research on auditing, and who has issued expert opinions on compliance with auditing standards, I am saying that accountability is improved when the information is also audited independently and available for inspection. It's not a difficult concept. Quote I suppose if enough church members asked for it they would put out something to look at, but so far there just aren't enough active tithe-paying members demanding it. Well, the argument could be made that members are fearful of looking like they are criticizing church leaders simple by asking for more financial transparency. I mean, look at our little experiment in this thread; such notions have been given SUCH a warm welcome.
JAHS Posted June 18, 2021 Posted June 18, 2021 9 minutes ago, ttribe said: On the contrary, I've said numerous times that I think the church employs some top notch professionals. But, accountability is not only about ethics. Mistakes happen. Controls are overridden. Speaking as someone who has actually been an auditor, who has taught auditing at the university level, who has done academic research on auditing, and who has issued expert opinions on compliance with auditing standards, I am saying that accountability is improved when the information is also audited independently and available for inspection. It's not a difficult concept. Well, the argument could be made that members are fearful of looking like they are criticizing church leaders simple by asking for more financial transparency. I mean, look at our little experiment in this thread; such notions have been given SUCH a warm welcome. Maybe the church should hire you work for them. 🙂 I don't think the active, faithful tithe-paying members are fearful of looking like they are criticizing, I think they simply don't require or even ask for the transparency that others are asking for. The prophets and "top notch professionals" are good enough for them and for me. But that is my opinion. 2
Amulek Posted June 18, 2021 Posted June 18, 2021 (edited) 14 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: That’ll teach them a lesson for acting responsibly and honorably! 😉 Exactly! And do you honestly think, even for one minute, that - had the church done differently - those same critics which have been complaining about the bailout wouldn't now be whining about the church having dumped the whole mess on everyone else instead? Edited June 18, 2021 by Amulek 4
mfbukowski Posted June 18, 2021 Posted June 18, 2021 On 6/17/2021 at 8:43 AM, jkwilliams said: Reminds me of a scripture. 19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: 20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: 21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. I don't begrudge the church making sure it's solvent, but yeah, that's a heck of a lot of money just sitting there. Oh my gosh, this is so absurd!! If they buy or build something they get flak for investing and then they get flak for money "just sitting there". Mormonism one, for you who have not been taught church Doctrine, is that we are to become the "Stone cut without hands" which is to roll forth and fill the earth. The goal is to build a nation state to cover the earth after the second coming You think maybe that might take a few bucks? And clearly the money is not sitting idle like we board members obviously are, posting the same lame opinions day and night. 4
Teancum Posted June 18, 2021 Posted June 18, 2021 11 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: I’m still trying to figure out why non-tithepayers like you and Teancum get so angry about other folks using their own means to support whom and what they want in the manner and under the circumstances they choose to do it Not angry one bit. You need to stop projecting.
mfbukowski Posted June 18, 2021 Posted June 18, 2021 16 hours ago, ttribe said: I guess I'm with jkwilliams on this...why the ardent defensiveness? Why the passive agression? You two are quite a team, with the same tactics, but he is much better at it. 4
mfbukowski Posted June 18, 2021 Posted June 18, 2021 (edited) 39 minutes ago, Teancum said: Not angry one bit. You need to stop projecting. See? A new recruit! Quite a team of 4! You should start a band! JW and the 3T's! Edited June 18, 2021 by mfbukowski 3
Teancum Posted June 18, 2021 Posted June 18, 2021 9 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: See? A new recruit! Quite a team of 4! You should start a band! JW and the T's! Having fun?
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