Should Elder Uchtdorf step down?

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I don't need to add my opinion, but I will.

No, he should not have to resign over this "situation."  If we can even call it that, IMO.

Also, we need more handsome men at the helm, not less for Petes sake. 

Also I suspect, though it's unfair to, that this is a situation of "Bitter, table for one?"

If I were to remark on the physical attractiveness/sex appeal of the Relief Society general president, it would rightly be considered creepy. And yet .... 

Edited March 15, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

9 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

It goes both ways when Dems are called liberals or socialists all the time. And it sure does divide, I long for the old days. Or days where families, friends, neighbors aren't divided over politics.  ETA: I'm a registered republican, but doubt that will continue. 

I don’t disagree with this. 

[teddyaware]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I very much agree with this. There is too much of painting those who voted Republican in the last election as extremists. It is tearing the country apart — and feeding the currently prevailing cancel culture. 

The people who are so unfairly branding conservative, traditional family values voters as dangerous extremists would also consider the Founding Fathers — men whom God himself has testified were in tune enough with his Spirit to produce the divinely inspired Constitution of the United States — as dangerous radicals. At the same time, these slanderers, who so unjustly paint with such a broad brush, are the same people who treat atheistic leftwing radicals like admirable heroes worthy of emulation.

I can absolutely guarantee you that this once free nation has reached the point of no return, and the days of the prophesied great tribulation will soon upon us. How do I know. In the last General Conference, President Nelson testified that we are the generation who will see with our own eyes the literal fulfillment of what the prophet Nephi saw only in vision. Referring to 1 Nephi 14 he said we are the people upon whom Nephi saw the Lord pouring out his Spirit in great power and glory unto eternal victory. But what President Nelson left out is in the in the previous verse Nephi witnessed that before that great outpouring of overcoming power and glory the entire world of the gentiles is going to unite in the common cause of the destruction of the restored Church of Jesus Christ. Through this means, and without having to be as blunt as a sledgehammer, the Prophet was letting those with eyes to see and ears to hear know that the day of the persecution of Christ the Church will soon be upon us. And I must say the idea that a true Apostle of Jesus Christ would support the very people who are going to instigate and perpetrate this worldwide assault on the Church of Christ is absurd.

Back in October of 1988, President Benson gave the momentous warning to the Church that the great worldwide secret combination that would seek to destroy freedom throughout the world in the last days, as prophesied by Moroni in Ether Chapter 8, was then (1988) in existence and already gaining unrighteous control over the United States and the entire world. To imagine that 32 years after President Benson’s dramatic announcement, that Moroni’s dark prophecy was then in the process of being fulfilled, that today’s First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve would be left in the dark on a matter of such paramount importance is ludicrous. And in case any of you have forgotten, in the last two General Conferences the Church leaders have warned us the that time is now fully come to put your financial house in order and gather a year’s supply of food storage and water.

What follows is the verse in 1 Nephi 14 that President Nelson said we are going to see literally fulfilled and the previous verse that testifies what’s going to happen before the Lord arms his Church with great delivering power and righteousness:

13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God.
14 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory.

 

Edited March 15, 2021 by teddyaware

[mfbukowski]

8 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Your post just caused my suspicions to become aroused. Could it be that a disgruntled member of the family pulled this stunt as a deliberate act of sabotage, knowing it might very well get Elder Uchtdorf into hot water? Maybe one or more of the smiling faces in the Uchtdorf family he  photos is just for the camera? Anything’s possible in this crazy post-modern (😏) world.

Lol!

Yes I think it is entirely possible!

See? That's the way being VERY skeptical can be handy in this crooked world

 

[Robert F. Smith]

On 3/13/2021 at 6:24 PM, rpn said:

You don't resign from apostleship.   Once you're called you're that until you get honorably released by death.

One method of punishment is to remove the seniority of an apostle.

On 3/13/2021 at 6:24 PM, rpn said:

And it wasn't Elder Uchtdorf (I'm betting that it was his kids or grandkids, hopefully ones born  in the US or a citizen because if not they are foreign nationals they would be breaking federal election laws by contributing: his wife would have known not to do it too). 

Probably not Dieter himself.  Hard to say though who it may have been.  His children and grandkids should not have access to his accounts, except in case of his and his wife's death.  He may be far too trusting.

[mfbukowski]

37 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

One method of punishment is to remove the seniority of an apostle.

Probably not Dieter himself.  Hard to say though who it may have been.  His children and grandkids should not have access to his accounts, except in case of his and his wife's death.  He may be far too trusting.

Good hypothesis!  My kids know that I will help them if they really need it- and the next step would be to just let them write a check for a limited amount as a "pre approved line of credit" if they really really needed it, like being stranded in Timbuktu and not being able to get ahold of me to ask permisssion, or situations we cannot even predict.

I can see that as a real possible situation that could EASILY get out of hand.

"OK now this is a duplicate credit card on one of my accounts (or atm) but DO NOT USE it unless it is an absolute EMERGENCY...."

Isn't that what "good dads" do to protect their kids? 

 

Edited March 15, 2021 by mfbukowski

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

The people who are so unfairly branding conservative, traditional family values voters as dangerous extremists

Fairness has nothing to do with it.  Most Americans are yokels who know nothing of history or the law, and typically get the govt they deserve -- good or bad.  That is the risk of democracy.  It can easily turn in to mobocracy.  Plato preferred the dictatorship of the great philosopher-king.  Makes for great efficiency, as the Chinese Communist Party has seen in their choice of Xi Jin Ping as Emperor.

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

would also consider the Founding Fathers — men whom God himself has testified were in tune enough with his Spirit to produce the divinely inspired Constitution of the United States...........................

The Founding Fathers were indeed inspired, but let's be honest:  They were also traitors to King and Country who fully understood the possible consequences of their actions.  They were also flawed men, but flawed in a way typical of their time and circumstance.

The Founders crafted an inspired Constitution which faced the hard reality that humans are deeply flawed.  It is a well-conceived document.  Unfortunately, few Americans understand it, and fewer still trust it.  So many are prepared to jettison any part of it that makes them uncomfortable.  They have neither faith in God, nor in His Constitution.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

If I were to remark on the physical attractiveness/sex appeal of the Relief Society general president, it would rightly be considered creepy. And yet .... 

I thought it an inappropriate, but not creepy comment actually, but Mustard Seed is so rarely inappropriate and invariably kind, I gave her a pass.  
 

The creepiness generally comes in for me when there is a sense of ownership, someone who comes across as they have a right to tell others how to look, act, or feel.  Or a relationship that doesn’t exist is implied. 

Edited March 15, 2021 by Calm

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, teddyaware said:

The people who are so unfairly branding conservative, traditional family values voters as dangerous extremists would also consider the Founding Fathers — men whom God himself has testified were in tune enough with his Spirit to produce the divinely inspired Constitution of the United States — as dangerous radicals. At the same time, these slanderers, who so unjustly paint with such a broad brush, are the same people who treat atheistic leftwing radicals like admirable heroes worthy of emulation.

I can absolutely guarantee you that this once free nation has reached the point of no return, and the days of the prophesied great tribulation will soon upon us. How do I know. In the last General Conference, President Nelson testified that we are the generation who will see with our own eyes the literal fulfillment of what the prophet Nephi saw only in vision. Referring to 1 Nephi 14 he said we are the people upon whom Nephi saw the Lord pouring out his Spirit in great power and glory unto eternal victory. But what President Nelson left out is in the in the previous verse Nephi witnessed that before that great outpouring of overcoming power and glory the entire world of the gentiles is going to unite in the common cause of the destruction of the restored Church of Jesus Christ. Through this means, and without having to be as blunt as a sledgehammer, the Prophet was letting those with eyes to see and ears to hear know that the day of the persecution of Christ the Church will soon be upon us. And I must say the idea that a true Apostle of Jesus Christ would support the very people who are going to instigate and perpetrate this worldwide assault on the Church of Christ is absurd.

Back in October of 1988, President Benson gave the momentous warning to the Church that the great worldwide secret combination that would seek to destroy freedom throughout the world in the last days, as prophesied by Moroni in Ether Chapter 8, was then (1988) in existence and already gaining unrighteous control over the United States and the entire world. To imagine that 32 years after President Benson’s dramatic announcement, that Moroni’s dark prophecy was then in the process of being fulfilled, that today’s First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve would be left in the dark on a matter of such paramount importance is ludicrous. And in case any of you have forgotten, in the last two General Conferences the Church leaders have warned us the that time is now fully come to put your financial house in order and gather a year’s supply of food storage and water.

What follows is the verse in 1 Nephi 14 that President Nelson said we are going to see literally fulfilled and the previous verse that testifies what’s going to happen before the Lord arms his Church with great delivering power and righteousness:

13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God.
14 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory.

 

Wrong.

[Scott Lloyd]

12 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Good hypothesis!  My kids know that I will help them if they really need it- and the next step would be to just let them write a check for a limited amount as a "pre approved line of credit" if they really really needed it, like being stranded in Timbuktu and not being able to get ahold of me to ask permisssion, or situations we cannot even predict.

I can see that as a real possible situation that could EASILY get out of hand.

"OK now this is a duplicate credit card on one of my accounts (or atm) but DO NOT USE it unless it is an absolute EMERGENCY...."

Isn't that what "good dads" do to protect their kids? 

 

The prudent thing, say I, is to open an emergency debit account for the child with the parent as joint account holder, then keep a close and regular eye on it via internet access, not just to keep it from getting “out of hand,” but to replenish it once in a while as needed. 

Edited March 15, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[Meadowchik]

4 hours ago, teddyaware said:

The people who are so unfairly branding conservative, traditional family values voters as dangerous extremists would also consider the Founding Fathers — men whom God himself has testified were in tune enough with his Spirit to produce the divinely inspired Constitution of the United States — as dangerous radicals. At the same time, these slanderers, who so unjustly paint with such a broad brush, are the same people who treat atheistic leftwing radicals like admirable heroes worthy of emulation.

I can absolutely guarantee you that this once free nation has reached the point of no return, and the days of the prophesied great tribulation will soon upon us. How do I know. In the last General Conference, President Nelson testified that we are the generation who will see with our own eyes the literal fulfillment of what the prophet Nephi saw only in vision. Referring to 1 Nephi 14 he said we are the people upon whom Nephi saw the Lord pouring out his Spirit in great power and glory unto eternal victory. But what President Nelson left out is in the in the previous verse Nephi witnessed that before that great outpouring of overcoming power and glory the entire world of the gentiles is going to unite in the common cause of the destruction of the restored Church of Jesus Christ. Through this means, and without having to be as blunt as a sledgehammer, the Prophet was letting those with eyes to see and ears to hear know that the day of the persecution of Christ the Church will soon be upon us. And I must say the idea that a true Apostle of Jesus Christ would support the very people who are going to instigate and perpetrate this worldwide assault on the Church of Christ is absurd.

Back in October of 1988, President Benson gave the momentous warning to the Church that the great worldwide secret combination that would seek to destroy freedom throughout the world in the last days, as prophesied by Moroni in Ether Chapter 8, was then (1988) in existence and already gaining unrighteous control over the United States and the entire world. To imagine that 32 years after President Benson’s dramatic announcement, that Moroni’s dark prophecy was then in the process of being fulfilled, that today’s First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve would be left in the dark on a matter of such paramount importance is ludicrous. And in case any of you have forgotten, in the last two General Conferences the Church leaders have warned us the that time is now fully come to put your financial house in order and gather a year’s supply of food storage and water.

What follows is the verse in 1 Nephi 14 that President Nelson said we are going to see literally fulfilled and the previous verse that testifies what’s going to happen before the Lord arms his Church with great delivering power and righteousness:

13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God.
14 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory.

 

From my point of view, having shared the above to some extent and therefore having understood it personally, I see the above as an example of a philosophy requiring the opposing view to be evil, requiring the End Times to come, because it has run its course. As an apostle, President Benson said some terribly misguided things about liberals and the Left, and they were grounded in the belief that the left is inherently evil. His speeches became more mellow eventually, but much of Mormon political philosophy uses quotes from his previous very, very anti-liberal speeches.  

Furthermore, current complaints about cancel culture are painfully ironic because those so-called "traditional family values" have been cancelling people and relationships since before any of us were born. The Right cancels all the time, the right celebrates the nature of Capitalism that through human selection, cancels less popular products and ideas. 

I would much rather a pluralistic society that is led by moral atheistic principles than by immoral religious principles. 

That said, there are Christians who believe the Founders were inspired, who press on with moral religious principles that allow for common ground between beliefs including theists and atheists. There are Christians (and people of other faiths) who do not require demonization of the Right of Left in order to justify their views. 

 

[ttribe]

9 hours ago, teddyaware said:

The people who are so unfairly branding conservative, traditional family values voters as dangerous extremists would also consider the Founding Fathers — men whom God himself has testified were in tune enough with his Spirit to produce the divinely inspired Constitution of the United States — as dangerous radicals. At the same time, these slanderers, who so unjustly paint with such a broad brush, are the same people who treat atheistic leftwing radicals like admirable heroes worthy of emulation.

I can absolutely guarantee you that this once free nation has reached the point of no return, and the days of the prophesied great tribulation will soon upon us. How do I know. In the last General Conference, President Nelson testified that we are the generation who will see with our own eyes the literal fulfillment of what the prophet Nephi saw only in vision. Referring to 1 Nephi 14 he said we are the people upon whom Nephi saw the Lord pouring out his Spirit in great power and glory unto eternal victory. But what President Nelson left out is in the in the previous verse Nephi witnessed that before that great outpouring of overcoming power and glory the entire world of the gentiles is going to unite in the common cause of the destruction of the restored Church of Jesus Christ. Through this means, and without having to be as blunt as a sledgehammer, the Prophet was letting those with eyes to see and ears to hear know that the day of the persecution of Christ the Church will soon be upon us. And I must say the idea that a true Apostle of Jesus Christ would support the very people who are going to instigate and perpetrate this worldwide assault on the Church of Christ is absurd.

Back in October of 1988, President Benson gave the momentous warning to the Church that the great worldwide secret combination that would seek to destroy freedom throughout the world in the last days, as prophesied by Moroni in Ether Chapter 8, was then (1988) in existence and already gaining unrighteous control over the United States and the entire world. To imagine that 32 years after President Benson’s dramatic announcement, that Moroni’s dark prophecy was then in the process of being fulfilled, that today’s First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve would be left in the dark on a matter of such paramount importance is ludicrous. And in case any of you have forgotten, in the last two General Conferences the Church leaders have warned us the that time is now fully come to put your financial house in order and gather a year’s supply of food storage and water.

What follows is the verse in 1 Nephi 14 that President Nelson said we are going to see literally fulfilled and the previous verse that testifies what’s going to happen before the Lord arms his Church with great delivering power and righteousness:

13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God.
14 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory.

 

 

[HappyJackWagon]

On 3/13/2021 at 12:13 PM, rongo said:

My dad thinks he should, because "he wasn't supposed to donate to campaigns, and he knew he wasn't supposed to, since 2011." I didn't know about this policy, and separate from the policy, my personal view is that apostles should be able to donate to whatever they want to, and it's none of our business. 

https://www.deseret.com/faith/2021/3/12/22326401/elder-dieter-uchtdorf-clarifies-family-campaign-donations-during-elections

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/03/12/family-dieter-uchtdorf/

I think that resigning is too harsh and unwarranted, but I do wonder what, if anything, he or the Church will say about this beyond the apology already reported in the news. I don't think it will be mentioned or brought up at all, personally.

What are others' thoughts on this? 

I was really concerned when I saw the title of this thread. I thought I'd missed something significant and scandalous.

As it turns out I missed nothing other than a hysterical reaction to one of Uchtdorf's family breaking an obscure policy that only relates to Elder Uchtdorf. That people think Uchtdorf should step down from the apostleship or face church discipline is a bit obscene and embarrassing.

I'm not bagging on your dad. I think mine would probably agree with yours but that just shows how hyper-political things are in the US and the church. It sounds like Uchtdorf handled things as well as could be expected after the fact.

[smac97]

Calls for Elder Uchtdorf to "step down" are, I think, a massive and bordering-on-irrational reaction to this news item.

The politicization of, well, everything continues apace, as does the pernicious spread of Cancel Culture.

I have a strong sense of connection with and duty to my God, family and country.  I don't like to see devotion to political party be elevated to the level of these, or even above these.

Thanks,

-Smac

[ttribe]

29 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Calls for Elder Uchtdorf to "step down" are, I think, a massive and bordering-on-irrational reaction to this news item.

The politicization of, well, everything continues apace, as does the pernicious spread of Cancel Culture.

I have a strong sense of connection with and duty to my God, family and country.  I don't like to see devotion to political party be elevated to the level of these, or even above these.

Thanks,

-Smac

My observation, from a now outsider's perspective, is that there is a small, but vocal, segment of the membership of the Church who are behaving as if their "belief" in the Republican Party is most certainly placed above their belief in the Church and its leadership.  The very notion that any active member would call for the resignation of an APOSTLE over a donation to a Democratic candidate is strong (albeit, indirect) evidence that some members have completely lost their bearings.  I suspect, but cannot prove, that these same people would not be clamoring for Elder Uchtdorf to resign had the donation been made to the Trump campaign.  That being said, there would almost certainly be another segment of Church membership that would be, in that scenario.  There is a deep divide over politics in this country, and the U.S. membership of the Church is far from immune from it.

[Tacenda]

33 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Calls for Elder Uchtdorf to "step down" are, I think, a massive and bordering-on-irrational reaction to this news item.

The politicization of, well, everything continues apace, as does the pernicious spread of Cancel Culture.

I have a strong sense of connection with and duty to my God, family and country.  I don't like to see devotion to political party be elevated to the level of these, or even above these.

Thanks,

-Smac

Do you believe it was wrong to take a few books out of publication by Dr. Seuss? 

[HappyJackWagon]

5 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Do you believe it was wrong to take a few books out of publication by Dr. Seuss? 

You didn't ask me but I'll answer anyway  

IF the government had censored the books and taken them out of publication that would have been wrong. However, that's not what happened.

The company that holds the Seuss rights took it's own books out of publication. That is a business decision and totally appropriate.

[Meadowchik]

7 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

You didn't ask me but I'll answer anyway  

IF the government had censored the books and taken them out of publication that would have been wrong. However, that's not what happened.

The company that holds the Seuss rights took it's own books out of publication. That is a business decision and totally appropriate.

Sarcasm ahead:

Those six books don't get their temple recommend! Cancelled!

Or, replace books with various other things or people:

Those books are rated R. Cancelled!

Those books are hot liquids. Cancelled!

Those books have hems too high and fabric too colorful. Cancelled!

Those books love the wrong people. Cancelled!

Those books don't believe the right things. Cancelled!

Wow this cancel culture is so new and unheard of? Why would anyone think of it?

[Theosis]

I love the revelation that he supported Biden, not because I supported Biden ( I did not, nor Trump) but because this will help break the monolithic hold of appearances that the Republican party is the de facto party of the LDS Church. 

I'm actually pretty excited that this will be the impetus of the largest political demographic shift within the Church since ETB supported the KKK... I mean the Birch Society. 

[Thinking]

I wonder if his political leanings had anything to do with him not being retained as a counselor in the first presidency.

[Calm]

11 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Isn't that what "good dads" do to protect their kids? 

Speaking of protecting your kids...just found out my dad may have done a disservice tax wise to one of my brothers trying to make the estate easier to deal with...though he may have had something in mind to do but it got screwed up with his very unexpected sudden death.

You got a decent size estate...talk to the tax man or estate planner or whatever to protect your kids with any inheritance. 

[Calm]

17 minutes ago, Thinking said:

I wonder if his political leanings had anything to do with him not being retained as a counselor in the first presidency.

And this is one reason why Apostles don’t disclose political leanings...speculation about favoritism or the reverse.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, ttribe said:

The very notion that any active member would call for the resignation of an APOSTLE over a donation to a Democratic candidate is strong (albeit, indirect) evidence that some members have completely lost their bearings

To be fair to Rongo’s father at least, it appears it may not be the donation itself, but that his dad believes it was intentional ignoring of the policy, Elder Utchdorf knew about the policy and decided it didn’t matter, going against church instruction in this view...or so it appears from the way Rongo wrote about his response.  This would also mean Elder Utchdorf is now lying to cover up his choice to rebel.  That may be what is bothering the dad more than the political party. 
 

 

Edited March 15, 2021 by Calm

[smac97]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Do you believe it was wrong to take a few books out of publication by Dr. Seuss? 

Broadly speaking, yes.  

[smac97]

1 hour ago, ttribe said:

My observation, from a now outsider's perspective, is that there is a small, but vocal, segment of the membership of the Church who are behaving as if their "belief" in the Republican Party is most certainly placed above their belief in the Church and its leadership. 

Yep.

And there are other members whose beliefs pertaining to other sociopolitical groupings are "certainly placed above their belief in the Church and its leadership."

1 hour ago, ttribe said:

The very notion that any active member would call for the resignation of an APOSTLE over a donation to a Democratic candidate is strong (albeit, indirect) evidence that some members have completely lost their bearings. 

Yes.  I was going to bring up an example of a church member on the other side of the political spectrum who had publicly wished/hoped for the deaths of certain leaders of the Church based on a personal preference to have another apostle take over.  However, I'm hoping the individual has had a change of heart since publishing such ugliness, so I won't re-publish the remarks here.

1 hour ago, ttribe said:

I suspect, but cannot prove, that these same people would not be clamoring for Elder Uchtdorf to resign had the donation been made to the Trump campaign.  That being said, there would almost certainly be another segment of Church membership that would be, in that scenario.  There is a deep divide over politics in this country, and the U.S. membership of the Church is far from immune from it.

Yep.  We need to stop politicizing everything.  

Thanks,

-Smac