Bombshell BYU announcement

[CV75]

51 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

We will not reach racial Bliss as a nation until Christ returns. Too many people want to score points for their political goals. 

I don't think the United States is a white supremist racist country right now I think it only takes a few bad racist cops to make the whole country look bad. 

I also think there are sections of our country that I have a lot of growing up to do. I happen to be fortunate enough to be born and raised in Southern California. I thought after the Rodney King riots we had all figured out that we better get along or life was going to be miserable.

Sorry, but I spotted a couple of contradictions here: you are grateful for being born and raised in Southern California, but things haven't changed there since (before) Rodney King... What is the opposite of bliss, and where has bliss been figured out given that too many people use race as a political weapon? This is what I meant by resignation, @rongo: the notion that we are not going to change the racial status quo everywhere, so attempts to resolve a problem where identified (e,g, the BYU Committee) will only stir the pot for this hopeless national scene and is easily refuted. Somebody gets comfort out of that notion somewhere.

Edited March 9, 2021 by CV75

[CV75]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

I can wax rhapsodic about creamed herring.   Seriously.   There are some Nordic countries in which they serve creamed herring for dessert.  Seriously for me it is like the best ice cream you have ever tasted!  Nothing like ice cream though.   Hmmm wonder how that would sell?   Creamed herring ice cream anyone? 😱

My family on the other hand thinks I am nuts.

Of course they are probably right, but that's fine with me.

I know a place that sells buttered lobster ice cream!

[AtlanticMike]

On 3/8/2021 at 12:46 PM, CV75 said:

Can you help me understand the concept of reverse racism better? I tired to get an idea from Wikipedia, but thought you might have a source that has an objective description that matches the way you see it. 

If you have time watch this video. The girl on the left is breaking down a video on what I call "reverse racism." The girl on the left talks about how viewing people of color as victims isn't beneficial at all, and I agree with her. If you take the time to watch it, tell me what you think.  If you want to watch the original video, the one on the right, it's on a channel called, Cut. The video is called, So what exactly are white people superior at?

https://youtu.be/

 

[AtlanticMike]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

Leave off the herring and anchovies and add in sourdough bread, roasted garlic, and a great olive oil and balsamic vinegar and you have my preferred lifestyle outside of fruit and plain whole milk yogurt for breakfast.  Unfortunately I get to be low salt now...so a few of those will be rare treats in the future.

I'll admit it, I'm an olive oil snob😁. Actually I have a hard time finding a good 100% olive oil.

Edited March 9, 2021 by AtlanticMike

[CV75]

11 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

If you have time watch this video. The girl on the left is breaking down a video on what I call "reverse racism." The girl on the left talks about how viewing people of color as victims isn't beneficial at all, and I agree with her. If you take the time to watch it, tell me what you think.  If you want to watch the original video, the one on the right, it's on a channel called, Cut. The video is called, So what exactly are white people superior at?

https://youtu.be/

You bombed on my question yesterday, and you again haven't empirically defined or supported your colloquial notion of reverse racism (and wouldn't that be tolerance anyway?), and I haven't found one either. You know it when you see it? Good for you!

Edited March 9, 2021 by CV75

[AtlanticMike]

10 minutes ago, CV75 said:

You bombed on my question yesterday, and you again haven't empirically defined or supported your colloquial notion of reverse racism (and wouldn't that be tolerance anyway?), and I haven't found one either. You know it when you see it? Good for you!

Keep looking, you'll find it, I have faith in you! 

[Glenn101]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

You bombed on my question yesterday, and you again haven't empirically defined or supported your colloquial notion of reverse racism (and wouldn't that be tolerance anyway?), and I haven't found one either. You know it when you see it? Good for you!

"I know it when I see it" is another way of saying "It fits my paradigm" on whatever the issue is. That is my paradigm anyway.

 

Glenn

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said:

If you have time watch this video. The girl on the left is breaking down a video on what I call "reverse racism." The girl on the left talks about how viewing people of color as victims isn't beneficial at all, and I agree with her. If you take the time to watch it, tell me what you think.  If you want to watch the original video, the one on the right, it's on a channel called, Cut. The video is called, So what exactly are white people superior at?

https://youtu.be/

 

Oh dear God.

That is not taking the name of the Lord in vain. It is an actual prayer.

[CV75]

8 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

"I know it when I see it" is another way of saying "It fits my paradigm" on whatever the issue is. That is my paradigm anyway.

Glenn

Hey bud can I borrow 20 cents?

[mfbukowski]

30 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Oh dear God.

That is not taking the name of the Lord in vain. It is an actual prayer.

It's pretty obvious that white people are far far superior than others!

 

 

 

 

...in being white.  

If you like sunburn, we have to be the absolute best on the planet at catching those rays and converting them to pain.

Yes everybody is a little brown but if you really need a sunburn, MAN those of us who are the "whitest" are clearly the BEST!!!  I mean we are talking clear white supremacy in the sunburn department!!

[AtlanticMike]

10 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

Atlantic Mike, anecdotal  evidence ends up not working in the end, because there’s always other anecdotes to counter your points. I mentioned immigrant stories here that do not completely give the america is the bestest message. You’ve seemed to largely ignore them. I could point out ither anectdotal moments like going to the Deep South and seeing a very common trend of black people working service jobs while whites largely worked managerial positions. Your last line makes it clear to me though why.
I’m an optimist at heart but that doesn’t come by ignoring the negatives and problems. I sit and acknowledge the pain struggle and systemic problems while also seeking and implementing things that may better others and my own situations. You’ve set up a viewpoint where you’re either happy and note only the positive or one is drowning in negative juju pretending that’s really living. I see that as seriously problematic.

Let me give you an analogy. I’m a gardener. We bought our less new home in part because it has a large enough yard for me to enjoy. But the yard was not in good shape. There was trash everywhere, the grass was patchy and covered in dog turds and the dog that did it was now ours and only so-so trained, there were unfinished and poorly done projects everywhere and where I wanted a garden bed there were literal small boulders and rocks in half of it. Sand in others. Clay in yet other places. This was not a gardening paradise. It was work. But I saw potential in it, capacity, good spots, and opportunities. So we worked at. Tilled the earth. Hand removed rock after rock, repurposed some of the trash and boulders to make borders, killed off sections of grass and reseeded others with mixed clover to naturally heal and add nitrogen to my garden fixation. We’re not done. We still have work to do. We’re currently ripping out these ugly nasty bushes that smell somewhat like cat urine when you prune it. We’ll replace them with several fruiting plants and asparagus. 

the previous owner made a mistake (okay mistakes). They underestimated the work that was needed, found bandaid solutions or fast/cheap options for projects, and because of it, the yard got worse not better under their care. Not really acknowledging and recognizing problems doesn’t make society better. It means we ignore important details that can help us improve as a society. When we ignore things, the problems often get worse. You asked what you are missing when you look at the American landscape. People answered and pointed out the boulders, the dog turds, and the urine smelling bushes, you’ve chosen to ignore that for an image of the the yard that is not complete, poo-pooing concerns as being excessively negative or completely denying their existence (like classism...definitely here in the US and growing). I, and I assume others , are not pointing to these to say the US is terrible and to wallow in the turds. But to point out things still need work, we still have things we’ll need to do to live up to the best of our ideals/aspirations, we still have problems ahead of us that need addressing, and the only way we get anywhere is by acknowledging them and working at it. 

with luv, 

BD 

 

Thank you for writing this long post, I'll get back to you tomorrow.

[AtlanticMike]

10 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I am not browbeating AtlanticMike for his claims. I am pointing out that his logic his faulty. Reread my posts, if you need to. They are ALL about his use of logic, which is flawed.

Getting a good browbeating sounds like fun, are you married? 🤣🤣 Sorry couldn't resist, I my gosh, did I just say that out loud! 😁 

[AtlanticMike]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Oh dear God.

That is not taking the name of the Lord in vain. It is an actual prayer.

I can pay rent for the corner of your brain I occupy if you want😁

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, AtlanticMike said:

I can pay rent for the corner of your brain I occupy if you want😁

Not a chance of me wanting you in there. I mean, look at the bio of you on the side there. You think the Atlantic is better than the Pacific? Hell no!

[AtlanticMike]

Just now, The Nehor said:

Not a chance of me wanting you in there. I mean, look at the bio of you on the side there. You think the Atlantic is better than the Pacific? Hell no!

Haha, I like you nehor, your come backs are almost as good as mine 

[longview]

8 hours ago, rongo said:

8 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

No Doubt there are pockets of racism throughout the United States. To just say the United States is a white supremacist and racist country as a whole is incorrect.

Honest question here:

Is there any end game at all? That is: at some point is there a possibility that the United States could no longer be a white supremacist and racist country? 

How will we know when we reach that point? What will the metrics be?

It will be a moot point (if it isn't already).  Caucasians are fast becoming a minority.  Intermarriages will dilute the gene pool.  Soon we will all be some shade of orange or green.   

[Rain]

@AtlanticMikeI think you need to give yourself some credit on you English.  It may be really hard for you, but what you write doesn't show that. I would not have guessed it was a struggle for you.

[Calm]

12 hours ago, Calm said:

So do you agree that saying ‘anyone can be successful with hard work and determination’ is not accurate, it is too broad?

Mike, you never answered this question which to me is essential information on understanding your point of view, do you really believe anyone can fulfill their chosen definition of success with hard work and determination?  For example, if a man’s chosen measure of success is to have a child of his own to carry on the family name and he is infertile, will hard work and determination give him success or just drive deeper the sense of failure? 

[AtlanticMike]

7 hours ago, Rain said:

@AtlanticMikeI think you need to give yourself some credit on you English.  It may be really hard for you, but what you write doesn't show that. I would not have guessed it was a struggle for you.

Thank you

[AtlanticMike]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Mike, you never answered this question which to me is essential information on understanding your point of view, do you really believe anyone can fulfill their chosen definition of success with hard work and determination?  For example, if a man’s chosen measure of success is to have a child of his own to carry on the family name and he is infertile, will hard work and determination give him success or just drive deeper the sense of failure? 

This is the perfect question to show you how I live my life and strive for success. I will admit what I'm about to say is a little unconventional, but I live it, and I teach my kids the same thing and I'll explain why later.

    First, to answer your example question. Let's say im an infirtile white dude, adopted a black kid with really dark skin and as soon as you looked at us standing side by side you new we weren't biologically father and son. Well, the first thing I would do to strengthen my relationship with my son is tell him when he's old enough to understand, that he was adopted, answer any questions, then tell him from that day forward in my mind he was my actuall son and that's what I'm going to tell everyone. As he's growing up, if anyone asked if he was adopt while my son was standing be side me,  I would say no, he's my son, why would you ask that. Of course my son knows he's adopted, but that's not the point, the point is letting my son SEE and HEAR that's he's so special to me I'm willing to lie and look like an completel idiot, so my son understands he is the most special person in the world to me. So to answer your question, yes in my mind my black son will carry on my family name, maybe not biologically, but in every other way he will, that's success, Calm. 

      Now, back to real life and my view on success. My girls look more Filipino than white. Are there some people in America that will judge them because of their skin color? Yes! But, I have instilled values, determination and a grit inside them that they honestly think they're bad mxxxxr fxxxxrs. My parental philosophy is to teach my kids to be humble, charitable, caring, respectful, but also be willing to walk over anybody who gets in their way. They have never been held back because of their skin color. 

      What I teach my kids is the opposite of victimization. To me, that's what the black community needs, they need less Al Sharptons, and more Earl Woods.  My Philosophy in raising my kids is alot like Earl Woods. He told Tiger from a young Age he was the most special person on the face of the earth and nobody could beat him. It was drilled into him everyday. Tiger had people judge him, but because of his dad instilling that killer attitude, tiger used his skin color to his advantage and beat the crap out of everyone he played. He used the hate as motivation. 

     Calm, you can find success in just about anything. Not everyone has to be tiger woods, success can be as small as you want it to be. Just dont give up, adapt and overcome, that's what life is about. 

      

[AtlanticMike]

22 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

Atlantic Mike, anecdotal  evidence ends up not working in the end, because there’s always other anecdotes to counter your points. I mentioned immigrant stories here that do not completely give the america is the bestest message. You’ve seemed to largely ignore them. I could point out ither anectdotal moments like going to the Deep South and seeing a very common trend of black people working service jobs while whites largely worked managerial positions. Your last line makes it clear to me though why.
I’m an optimist at heart but that doesn’t come by ignoring the negatives and problems. I sit and acknowledge the pain struggle and systemic problems while also seeking and implementing things that may better others and my own situations. You’ve set up a viewpoint where you’re either happy and note only the positive or one is drowning in negative juju pretending that’s really living. I see that as seriously problematic.

Let me give you an analogy. I’m a gardener. We bought our less new home in part because it has a large enough yard for me to enjoy. But the yard was not in good shape. There was trash everywhere, the grass was patchy and covered in dog turds and the dog that did it was now ours and only so-so trained, there were unfinished and poorly done projects everywhere and where I wanted a garden bed there were literal small boulders and rocks in half of it. Sand in others. Clay in yet other places. This was not a gardening paradise. It was work. But I saw potential in it, capacity, good spots, and opportunities. So we worked at. Tilled the earth. Hand removed rock after rock, repurposed some of the trash and boulders to make borders, killed off sections of grass and reseeded others with mixed clover to naturally heal and add nitrogen to my garden fixation. We’re not done. We still have work to do. We’re currently ripping out these ugly nasty bushes that smell somewhat like cat urine when you prune it. We’ll replace them with several fruiting plants and asparagus. 

the previous owner made a mistake (okay mistakes). They underestimated the work that was needed, found bandaid solutions or fast/cheap options for projects, and because of it, the yard got worse not better under their care. Not really acknowledging and recognizing problems doesn’t make society better. It means we ignore important details that can help us improve as a society. When we ignore things, the problems often get worse. You asked what you are missing when you look at the American landscape. People answered and pointed out the boulders, the dog turds, and the urine smelling bushes, you’ve chosen to ignore that for an image of the the yard that is not complete, poo-pooing concerns as being excessively negative or completely denying their existence (like classism...definitely here in the US and growing). I, and I assume others , are not pointing to these to say the US is terrible and to wallow in the turds. But to point out things still need work, we still have things we’ll need to do to live up to the best of our ideals/aspirations, we still have problems ahead of us that need addressing, and the only way we get anywhere is by acknowledging them and working at it. 

with luv, 

BD 

 

The definition of anecdotal evidence is relying heavily on personal testimony. As mormons, I guess you could say we've based a big part of our life philosophy on anecdotal evidence because we rely on faith, correct? 

22 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

I mentioned immigrant stories here that do not completely give the america is the bestest message. You’ve seemed to largely ignore them.

Nope, didnt ignore them. You and I see it differently. I dont think skin color holds people back today. Thinking skin color holds you back, holds you back. Thinking white people need to change so people can get ahead holds people back. 

 

22 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

But to point out things still need work, we still have things we’ll need to do to live up to the best of our ideals/aspirations, we still have problems ahead of us that need addressing, and the only way we get anywhere is by acknowledging them and working at it. 

I'm not saying there's not problems, but the way people are going about them is absolutely ridiculous. You couldn't come up with a slower way to bring about change and I personally think that's by design. 

     Let me give you one example that in my opinion would change the black community faster than what is going on now. I think if we as a nation made it where every employee in the country became an independent contractor instead of an employee, meaning, instead of a W-2 you recieve a 1099 from a company, our country would change overnight. Why, because individuals would be in charge of their own benefits, vacation, insurance, taxes. Most people dont realize a $10 job is actually a $24 an hour job, with the employer paying all his overhead first and giving you the excess. This  would help black people by giving them a since of Independence, making them their own boss essentially. Increasing options by allowing not just black people, but everyone to choose insurance, write off expenses and etc. I'm fortunate where I live that I'm able to deal with people with different skin colors and cultures. In my experience, a larger majority of black people seem to feel like they're behind the curve while at the same time just about all white people I know don't care what color people are, they just want someone whose willing to work hard. I personally believe the victimization in the black community is the #1 reason a lot of black people feel like they cant get ahead. Personally, I think the black community needs to come together and get some real leaders that stand up and tell the community that black people are champions and stop telling them the white man is holding them back. Al Sharpton and people like him are a cancer that reinforce victimhood. He wouldn't know positivity if it bit him in the ***. 

     There are so many things that we could be doing to build up the black community but for some reason we spend 70% of the time looking backward and 30% forward. That's because the people influencing the black community cant find negativey in the future, they have to look in the past to find negativy and use it to make people feel less than, it's a psychological ploy. 99.9% of white people I know dont care about color. 

    I really like your post, thank you for taking the time to write me.

[Amulek]

13 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

If you like sunburn, we have to be the absolute best on the planet at catching those rays and converting them to pain.

I find this kind of comment especially insensitive to Vampires of Color.

 

[smac97]

From the "Law of Unintended Consequences" files:

Quote

Congrats to Stanford Law and Policy Lab. They have identified the problem but are pursuing an epic failure with their solution. It seems the top-tier school has finally figured out that tying children to failing schools by their zip codes systematically oppresses black and brown children.
...

Their practicum is The Youth Justice Lab: Imagining an Anti-Racist Public Education System. Perhaps they would like to engage in a deeper analysis. Recently I wrote about a teen in Baltimore who only passed three classes in his entire high school career. Even more shocking, with a GPA of 0.13, his class rank was 62 out of 120 students The mayor of Baltimore City is black, the city council is extremely diverse, and the CEO of Baltimore City Schools is also black. The school district’s average teacher salary is $62,000, and its per-student spending was the third highest in the nation in 2019.

This overall picture of well-funded schools with a minority-led city government and school leadership is common in underperforming urban school districts. These districts have financial resources, and it would be hard to imagine their leadership’s primary goal is to hold students down based on racial identity. Instead, schools and individual student school performances are a multi-factor analysis. It is not as simple as assigning a motive, as Stanford Law has.

I think this is a fair point.  I think it's hard to point to generalized notions of "racism" as an explanation for the failing schools in Baltimore.  The students are black.  Much of the local leadership is black.  So "racists are making the students fail" doesn't work as an explanation, nor does a lack of resources (given the high per-pupil spending).

Quote

Luckily, Stanford University has one of the most astute students on inequity in education at the Hoover Institution. Dr. Thomas Sowell wrote a data-filled book called Charter Schools and Their Enemies. He demonstrates that charter schools, free from mandates from the local school board, can operate in the same building as a public school and produce significantly better results with predominantly minority populations. He spends quite a bit of time evaluating Success Academy, a charter school system comprised of 47 schools in New York City that enroll approximately 20,000 students.

Success Academy enrolls students through a lottery in underserved neighborhoods. In the last year that students in New York took standardized tests, Success Academy students had the state’s highest scores. Of the more than 7,000 students who took the exams, 99% passed the math portion, with 86% achieving the highest score, and 90% passed the English and language arts portion, with 41% achieving the highest score. The student population that took the tests was diverse and had an average household income of less than $50,000 in one of the world’s highest cost-of-living cities.

The district significantly outperformed students from much wealthier and less diverse school districts. Their most vulnerable students, those with IEPs {"Individualized Education Programs"}, English-language learners, and homeless children, outperformed New York City public schools at astounding rates. For example, 86% of Success Academy’s English-language learners passed the English and language arts exam. Only 9% of those students passed the test in New York City public schools.

The incompetence of governmental/administrative actors, and the systems that keep them immune from accountability for their failures, seem like an important considerations.  What if racial discrimination is a problem in terms of educating kids from "underserved neighborhoods," but administrative ineptitude/bloat/corruption/lack of accountability is even more so?

Quote

To solve disparate outcomes, New York Mayor Bill de Blasio and his administration have employed many of the ideas the Stanford website is hinting at. They have lowered standards, eliminated achievement testing for gifted and talented programs, and use equity, the typical “anti-racist” solution, as a guiding principle. Stanford is highlighting a similar problem set to address disparate outcomes:

Quote

Perhaps no institution has reproduced racial hierarchy in the U.S. more than our public education system. From state-sponsored racial segregation of schools to the more subtle, but no less insidious racially segregated academic placements (e.g., special education, advanced placement) to exclusionary school discipline policies to ostensibly “meritocratic” testing and grading policies and beyond, public schools have created and perpetuated racial hierarchy, despite the promise that schools should help all children achieve the American Dream.

Success Academy has taken the opposite approach. They set high standards for student achievement, student behavior in and out of school and create programs and partnerships with parents to teach them how to best support their child’s success. “Meritocratic” testing results prove the model works, regardless of race, ethnicity, socioeconomic status, and disability.

I really like this.  Looking at students as individuals, requiring hard work, gaining the trust and cooperation and involvements of the parents, and reducing administrative ineptitude/bloat/corruption/lack of accountability seem to have the chance of yielding some real results.

Quote

The soft bigotry of low expectations is evident in Stanford’s approach and New York City public schools’ approach.  Both promote the idea that we should not expect minority children to meet behavioral or academic standards to address disparate outcomes. What they are proposing is lowering the bar or reducing services to all children. The 58 students in Baltimore will not leave school with more skills if you lower the standards. New York City schools’ performance also continues to decline with an increasing number of social justice solutions.

Organizations that are genuinely interested in improving public education should spend some time understanding what CEO Eva Moskowitz, who runs Success Academies, and other programs like it are doing. They should encourage policies that promote competition and innovation by reducing the number of burdensome local, state, and federal regulations that public schools are forced to operate under. Then let parents choose the environment that will best serve their child based on results.

This article pertains to primary, rather than collegiate, education.  But I think that's where a lot of our efforts need to start.  Success in elementary school, junior and senior high will yield a much larger crop of disadvantaged students who are ready for the rigors of higher education.  And more power to them!

Thanks,

-Smac

[CV75]

22 minutes ago, smac97 said:

From the "Law of Unintended Consequences" files:

I think this is a fair point.  I think it's hard to point to generalized notions of "racism" as an explanation for the failing schools in Baltimore.  The students are black.  Much of the local leadership is black.  So "racists are making the students fail" doesn't work as an explanation, nor does a lack of resources (given the high per-pupil spending).

The incompetence of governmental/administrative actors, and the systems that keep them immune from accountability for their failures, seem like an important considerations.  What if racial discrimination is a problem in terms of educating kids from "underserved neighborhoods," but administrative ineptitude/bloat/corruption/lack of accountability is even more so?

I really like this.  Looking at students as individuals, requiring hard work, gaining the trust and cooperation and involvements of the parents, and reducing administrative ineptitude/bloat/corruption/lack of accountability seem to have the chance of yielding some real results.

This article pertains to primary, rather than collegiate, education.  But I think that's where a lot of our efforts need to start.  Success in elementary school, junior and senior high will yield a much larger crop of disadvantaged students who are ready for the rigors of higher education.  And more power to them!

Thanks,

-Smac

How do think these opinions from the article dovetail with the treatment of standards in the "Report and Recommendations of the BYU Committee on Race, Equity, and Belonging"?

As to the article itself, it acknowledges a damaging racial hierarchy exists -- a good example of systemic racism, regardless of motive, cause and players -- and that multiple factors (i.e. individualized and systemic approaches) are required for success to breed success, individually and collectively.

Edited March 10, 2021 by CV75

[Meadowchik]

5 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

There are so many things that we could be doing to build up the black community but for some reason we spend 70% of the time looking backward and 30% forward. 

Can you give a list of several of those many things?

 

5 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

That's because the people influencing the black community cant find negativey in the future, they have to look in the past to find negativy and use it to make people feel less than, it's a psychological ploy. 

That seems like a heavy assumption to depend upon. And if you use it in an even-handed manner, how do you know you are not so influenced by others that you cannot see race issues clearly?

 

5 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

99.9% of white people I know dont care about color. 

How do you know? And why would you rely upon your own observations to assess a nation? Furthermore, systemic racism is not dependent upon the attitudes of the majority. A system can be set in motion and then maintained by a powerful few. For example: voting laws and accessibility, bank policy, federal loan programs, and local financing priorities...

Edited March 10, 2021 by Meadowchik