Jump to content

Bombshell BYU announcement


Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

You're fighting a good fight but if Atlantic Mike and others want to rely on opinion/anecdotes and logical fallacies then there's really not much you can do to help them. But bravo for trying :) 

https://youtu.be/

😘

  • Haha 1
Link to post
2 minutes ago, CV75 said:

As I said (before narrowing it down to BYU), it depends on what metrics, definitions and context you are using to conclude whether the USA is a white supremacist and racist country.

Take me out of it. For those who believe and preach systemic racism and critical race theory, what metrics do they use?  Do they even want the end goal to be reached?

I ask, because I'm finding crickets trying to get this from the horse's mouth online. This doesn't seem to be spelled out or dealt with anywhere by proponents of the theory. 

Granted, BYU is coming at this from a completely different place than, say, Barnor Hesse (Northwestern) or Ibram X. Kendi. Also granted that BYU isn't working with concrete quotas. How will BYU know that things have vastly improved? Surveys of staff and students? 

Link to post
48 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Success is learning how to control your thoughts and not letting your thoughts control you.

Then someone like my daughter who has severe social anxiety with diabetes, sleep disorder, allergies, thyroid issues (had to have it removed) who has panic attacks and is unable to otherwise leave home or even talk on the phone, who is very hard working and first focuses on helping others when her medications are working as they should (which amounts to about 6 months in the last 5 years) and was even willing to try Electroconvulsive Therapy (first put unconscious, then paralysized, then seizures are induced) which requires her to be sick as a dog for 3-4 weeks while she was getting shocked every other day  and then for a week prior to her treatment and several days afterwards because she had to avoid her most helpful medication as it interferes with seizures...

She is currently unable to control her thoughts after almost 20 years of trying to figure out what works and what doesn’t...that is her choice?

The only reason she is still having issues is she isn’t working hard enough with enough determination?

She has done the no drugs (save insulin) grit your teeth and desensitized yourself route.  Sent her spiraling.

We even have had people with the best of intentions scold my daughter telling her if she only ate according to a certain diet she could get off all her meds including insulin...she is type 1.  

Edited by Calm
Link to post
39 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Most homeless people in my experience are on the street because of drugs or severe mental problems. 

If they have severe mental issues, is it their fault for not controlling their thoughts?

Link to post
3 hours ago, rongo said:

Honest question here:

Is there any end game at all? That is: at some point is there a possibility that the United States could no longer be a white supremacist and racist country? 

How will we know when we reach that point? What will the metrics be?

On demographics, When there’s greater parity between racial/ethnic groups on key factors such as educational achievement, class mobility, wealth disparity, and neighborhood wellbeing, opportunities, environmental care etc. 
On culture, when what it means to be American is less married to more white norms and expectations and allows for a more pluralistic view of what that means and may entail. 
I don’t think we’ll ever be perfect because there’s no such thing as a perfect Society on earth right now, though their problems likely differ from our own. But I do think there’s a lot of room for improvement that is tangible even if it takes a lot of work. We’ve made progress on this before. I’m under no illusion that the problems we have with racism in systems/culture are anywhere near as bad as they were in the 1950’s. But we still have a ways to go. 
 

i would add with a little more thought is that we have a bit more of a compassionate community oriented culture. I remember my SIL asked me confused whether in our civics classes whether we focus along with rights, our responsibilities and I couldn’t tell her yes. We’ve taken individualism to an extreme IMHO and that feeds and allows us license to ignore others in our communities who need help or assume much of their problems is their fault or concern, not our own. I don’t think that’s  all that healthy and it leaves us problems that seem endemic or impossible to breach because we can’t picture a solution that may entail momentary changes or sacrifices on our part. 
 

with luv, 

BD 
 

 

Edited by BlueDreams
  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1
Link to post
50 minutes ago, rongo said:

I'm wondering if, like a hypochondriac getting better,

Having been accused of being a hypochondriac for decades before medical science identified my genetic disorder, the example is quite striking to me.  Especially since the advice given to me by those who thought I was a hypochondriac (family members and a couple of doctors) contributed to me now having a severe case, where if my complaints had actually been listened to I might have a moderate case, maybe even mild. 
 

The debate appears to me much like the issues someone labeled a hypochondriac who has real, but poorly identified and even when identified, poorly understood physical or mental issues which are not a result of bad habits or choices...at least not theirs.  Everyone is giving them advice, especially along the lines “if you really want to get better, you can by gritting your teeth and working at it....after all that is what I do and I have everything I really want in my life”.

Edited by Calm
  • Like 1
Link to post
8 minutes ago, Calm said:

If they have severe mental issues, is it their fault for not controlling their thoughts?

If you don't like my answer then what do you think success is?

Link to post
56 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

If you don't like my answer then what do you think success is?

I didn’t say I didn’t like your answer, but I do want to know how you think your answers work in the real world.  When you give an absolute qualification, “anyone” in this case, it is appropriate to see if it applies absolutely.
 

I will answer your question though I see it as a derail, I believe each person decides what success is for themselves. I see your qualifications of hard work and determination as necessary for many, not all (some people don’t have very demanding measures of success).  However, even though necessary, hard work and determination are not enough in many cases through no fault of the person.

For my daughter, success means being able to take care of herself.  For me, it is being able to care for others if they need me and to feel satisfaction in what I am doing. For my grandparents having lived through the depression, it was having a stable, comfortable life with enough money left over to pass on to their children and grandchildren to help them work towards stability. For my dad, it was providing for the needs of his family and having enough free time and resources to keep his mind interested.  I had a relative who measured success as having the same number of kids as her role model did.  I have a friend whose goal of success includes having enough independent income so she doesn’t have to deal with her spouse’s chronic fears if she chooses not to (doesn’t have to ask him for money which can trigger rants and lectures and the spouse’s fears/panic).

Edited by Calm
  • Like 1
  • Upvote 2
Link to post
1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Yes, I read it as comparing BYU with faculty members at colleges and universities on the continuing faculty status track in the USA.

You seem to imply that BYU should reflect Utah demographics (Church membership, ethnicity, race, out-of-state students) and perceived sophistication. But should it, according to its mission and its trajectory in these kinds of measures?

Do you find the Faculty Reforms section (recommendations 22-26) excessive in terms of BYU’s mission and President Worthen’s instructions?

Since the Church is greatly expanding its worldwide membership, it would be very advantageous to implement all the policies recommended so as to help foreign students feel more comfortable with the diversity (and to eventually carry that experience into the worldwide Church with appropriate updates to the handbooks).  It is conceivable that some foreign students may have their biases and some level of animosities to others.  It will be a two-way street for all segments and the faculty may have to keep a lookout in order to moderate conflicts.

Recommendations 22 thru 26 (faculty) seems pretty reasonable.  It would also be advantageous for helping BYU to expand its interactions worldwide and leverage its academic presence with all countries.  It will no longer be western world centric but the rest of the world will have greater involvement with academic pursuits.

  • Like 1
Link to post
30 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

That brought a smile to my face. And you're not totally wrong...about that :)

 

👍glad to see you have a sense of humor, I was laughing the entire time I was posting it🤣

  • Like 1
Link to post
31 minutes ago, rongo said:

Take me out of it. For those who believe and preach systemic racism and critical race theory, what metrics do they use?  Do they even want the end goal to be reached?

I ask, because I'm finding crickets trying to get this from the horse's mouth online. This doesn't seem to be spelled out or dealt with anywhere by proponents of the theory. 

Granted, BYU is coming at this from a completely different place than, say, Barnor Hesse (Northwestern) or Ibram X. Kendi. Also granted that BYU isn't working with concrete quotas. How will BYU know that things have vastly improved? Surveys of staff and students? 

The metrics used (pro and con -- then acting on which is most reliable and convincing) are found in various studies and publications. Given that bias is a part of every academic's thinking, they use some commonly accepted techniques to discipline that, and then once the discussion becomes political and polemic, that is where civic virtue will hopefully result in ongoing compromises and improvements.

Evidently you haven't read enough books on these subjects. They are out there aplenty and I encourage you to keep looking. Do you think President Nelson came up with his charge in a vacuum of "pure intelligence" or without evaluating the quality of the sources of the studies? Was he informed by his personal and anecdotal experience with these problems, the national news, chain e-mail and Facebook memes and YouTube links?

Circling back to BYU, the recommendations include fairly explicit and concrete outputs and outcomes we can expect to be measured. Strategic planning requires it. Surveys are likely one tool they will use, but any improvement process uses an number of appropriate tools a nd metrics.

 

 

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 2
Link to post
22 minutes ago, longview said:

Since the Church is greatly expanding its worldwide membership, it would be very advantageous to implement all the policies recommended so as to help foreign students feel more comfortable with the diversity (and to eventually carry that experience into the worldwide Church with appropriate updates to the handbooks).  It is conceivable that some foreign students may have their biases and some level of animosities to others.  It will be a two-way street for all segments and the faculty may have to keep a lookout in order to moderate conflicts.

Recommendations 22 thru 26 (faculty) seems pretty reasonable.  It would also be advantageous for helping BYU to expand its interactions worldwide and leverage its academic presence with all countries.  It will no longer be western world centric but the rest of the world will have greater involvement with academic pursuits.

Agreed, and I would include domestic students with the worldwide and foreign categories of faculty and students.

Link to post
54 minutes ago, Calm said:

She is currently unable to control her thoughts after almost 20 years of trying to figure out what works and what doesn’t...that is her choice?

Mental disorders are extremely tough, Calm. Every person is different,  that's what makes it so tough to be a therapist. My anxiety was so bad when I was young I could take a whole xanax bar and it wouldn't help me go to sleep. 

 

1 hour ago, Calm said:

The only reason she is still having issues is she isn’t working hard enough with enough determination?

That might not be it. You can get to a point in your depression/anxiety that you cant help yourself out in my opinion. I call it it self defeat mode because that's what it felt like for me. I was my worse enemy in my mind and at a certain part of my life nobody could convinced me otherwise. 

1 hour ago, Calm said:

She has done the no drugs (save insulin) grit your teeth and desensitized yourself route.  Sent her spiraling.

Sorry.

1 hour ago, Calm said:

We even have had people with the best of intentions scold my daughter telling her if she only ate according to a certain diet she could get off all her meds including insulin...she is type 1.  

Well, in my opinion scolding might not work. It's the opposite of what I believe, I'm all about positivity. Sorry your going through this, if you need someone to talk to about anxiety you can always PM me, I'll even give you my phone number if you need someone to talk to.

Link to post
1 hour ago, Calm said:

Didn’t say I didn’t like your answer, but I do want to know how you think your answers work in the real world. 

My answer works for me because controlling my thoughts is a big deal to me. It's also a huge undertaking for me, that's why I say controlling my thoughts is succes. What do you mean in the real world?

Edited by AtlanticMike
Link to post
15 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

My answer works for me because controlling my thoughts is a big deal to me. It's also a huge undertaking for me, that's why I say controlling my thoughts is succes. What do you mean in the real world?

Let's see if it the same as what you consider to be "real world data" Posted 9 hours ago

Granted, I'm still focusing on justifications for personal attitudes and bias, which may not be at all what you are referring to anymore!

But how does controlling thoughts play into overcoming racism -- how does one's awareness of their need to control thoughts in this area come about? And are they controlling their resistance to change or their receptivity to change?

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
10 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

First off, maybe I keep giving you "red herrings" because I eat canned smoked herring atleast once a week🤣🤣. Actually its really good, so is canned anchovies, or, if you want the best, try king oscar canned sardines in olive oil, dang that's good!! 😁😁😁😁 just kidding, I'm a morning person.

I can wax rhapsodic about creamed herring.   Seriously.   There are some Nordic countries in which they serve creamed herring for dessert.  Seriously for me it is like the best ice cream you have ever tasted!  Nothing like ice cream though.   Hmmm wonder how that would sell?   Creamed herring ice cream anyone? 😱

My family on the other hand thinks I am nuts.

Of course they are probably right, but that's fine with me.

Edited by mfbukowski
  • Like 1
Link to post
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Evidently you haven't read enough books on these subjects. 

I am admittedly not well-read, as in reading primary source material on critical race theory. I have read quite a bit about its application in surrounding communities (school board controversies, etc. e.g., Chandler, AZ with Corwin) and in higher education. 

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Do you think President Nelson came up with his charge in a vacuum of "pure intelligence" or without evaluating the quality of the sources of the studies?

Yes, I absolutely think and believe that President Nelson and the other 14 apostles are not well-read at firsthand with the "sources of these studies" (critical race theory). To the extent that they are informed on critical race theory, I'm sure it's by way of being briefed in their briefing sessions. In my personal experience (Q&A, stake conference visits, etc.), they are very unaware of things like, for instance, the contents of the gospel topics essays. 

I think a lot of the impetus for this focus comes from the partnership with the NAACP, and from trying to hold onto young adults as they skew leftward in the Church (sexuality issues, race issues, economic theory, etc.). They are trying not to be stodgy old white men, and to give as much leeway as they can without compromising non-negotiables with kids like the now-endemic BYU protestors, in my view. 

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Was he informed by his personal and anecdotal experience with these problems, the national news, chain e-mail and Facebook memes and YouTube links?

No to chain email, Facebook memes, and Youtube links (I don't think they even run their own social media pages, to be honest). I think that the burning cities and the rancor over this last summer was the lynchpin for the focus. 

ETA: If President Nelson starts throwing out terms like "white traitor," "white abolitionism," and "white voyeurism," and telling us in conference that we need to dismantle and disrupt all structures, then I will happily admit that they're reading this stuff more closely than I thought. ;) 

Edited by rongo
Link to post
1 hour ago, longview said:

It would also be advantageous for helping BYU to expand its interactions worldwide and leverage its academic presence with all countries.  It will no longer be western world centric but the rest of the world will have greater involvement with academic pursuits.

Ideally I would like to see demographics at BYU match demographics internationally as much as possible.  Even if Americans and Canadians per nation contribute much more than other nations do in terms of tithing dollar amount (there are other ways to measure the value of tithing besides how many dollars, so I would never claim that Americans’ tithing is more valuable than tithing coming from nonAmericans) we don’t see Saints outside of those two countries as less deserving of tithing to build churches and temples or to support missionary work, so why would we think differently about universities?  This could be done by once again expanding international schools, though this might be problematic if governments or cultures impose limits on religious teaching...this also wouldn’t have the benefit of exposing students to other members worldwide...but students could be encouraged to attend BYU universities not in their homeland.  However, in many places there are already fine universities and I don’t see the Church going this route because of this and other issues relating to massive costs of an in person school, especially now when there are many good alternatives possible online.  (The current Pathways has a number of shortcomings, but hopefully over the years will develop into a highly effective tool for higher education.)
 

Scholarships offered to foreign students to come to the current BYUs are also an option.  One way of dealing with the issue of foreign students not returning home to contribute there would be to tie at least a significant number of scholarships to agreeing to serve for a certain number of years in less church populated or less educated areas, such as Canada gave med students a complete tuition scholarship in exchange for working in rural areas that would lack medical care (and thus would both have inequal treatment and raise costs for the national health care service due to seeking help only when severe) for 5 years postgraduate (Calgary had a teaching hospital and one of our ward members whose wife I ministered to was on his last year of school, I can’t remember if they knew where he would be sent yet or not).  There are a number of places in the US that could use similar help, so such would not need to be limited to only foreign students....plus there might be many Americans who would be willing to move even with young families overseas for a number of years if the Church provided support like finding jobs and living accommodations.

  • Like 1
Link to post
1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said:

That might not be it.

So do you agree that saying ‘anyone can be successful with hard work and determination’ is not accurate, it is too broad?

Link to post
59 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

My answer works for me because controlling my thoughts is a big deal to me. It's also a huge undertaking for me, that's why I say controlling my thoughts is succes. What do you mean in the real world?

I mean globally speaking, not theoretical or just limited to someone’s set acquaintances who are willing to talk about the subject.

Link to post
3 hours ago, rongo said:

Honest question here:

Is there any end game at all? That is: at some point is there a possibility that the United States could no longer be a white supremacist and racist country? 

How will we know when we reach that point? What will the metrics be?

We will not reach racial Bliss as a nation until Christ returns. Too many people want to score points for their political goals. 

I don't think the United States is a white supremist racist country right now I think it only takes a few bad racist cops to make the whole country look bad. 

I also think there are sections of our country that I have a lot of growing up to do. I happen to be fortunate enough to be born and raised in Southern California. I thought after the Rodney King riots we had all figured out that we better get along or life was going to be miserable.

  • Like 1
Link to post
39 minutes ago, rongo said:

I am admittedly not well-read, as in reading primary source material on critical race theory. I have read quite a bit about its application in surrounding communities (school board controversies, etc. e.g., Chandler, AZ with Corwin) and in higher education. 

Yes, I absolutely think and believe that President Nelson and the other 14 apostles are not well-read at firsthand with the "sources of these studies" (critical race theory). To the extent that they are informed on critical race theory, I'm sure it's by way of being briefed in their briefing sessions. In my personal experience (Q&A, stake conference visits, etc.), they are very unaware of things like, for instance, the contents of the gospel topics essays. 

I think a lot of the impetus for this focus comes from the partnership with the NAACP, and from trying to hold onto young adults as they skew leftward in the Church (sexuality issues, race issues, economic theory, etc.). They are trying not to be stodgy old white men, and to give as much leeway as they can without compromising non-negotiables with kids like the now-endemic BYU protestors, in my view. 

No to chain email, Facebook memes, and Youtube links (I don't think they even run their own social media pages, to be honest). I think that the burning cities and the rancor over this last summer was the lynchpin for the focus. 

ETA: If President Nelson starts throwing out terms like "white traitor," "white abolitionism," and "white voyeurism," and telling us in conference that we need to dismantle and disrupt all structures, then I will happily admit that they're reading this stuff more closely than I thought. ;) 

Certainly, there is a problem when science and findings are used as a hammer and improperly introduced to new ears.

I understand your bias for ascribing certain motives to the Brethren's stereotype, but do you think it reasonable to suppose that they can distinguish between a movement, a theory and validated results of investigation in formulating their position and their statements about institutional or systemic racism? What has President Nelson stated as his motive on this subject?

I am guilty of an anecdote here: working as a consultant for the Church while a graduate student, I had first-hand exposure to decades of ongoing studies and briefings in relation to Church policy development. The Brethren on the whole at least since the 1950s keep up to date on sometimes (in my opinion) some rather arcane, but in the long run or futuristically-speaking, very useful subjects. They hire people to help them do that. How or why these papers haven’t made it out of the office trash can and onto the Internet, I’ll never know!

Ha-ha RE: ETA 😀 But what about systemic racism? When he says racism needs to be rooted out, what does that say about the system that we call Zion? A rose by any other name!

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
50 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I can wax rhapsodic about creamed herring.   Seriously.   There are some Nordic countries in which they serve creamed herring for dessert.  Seriously for me it is like the best ice cream you have ever tasted!  Nothing like ice cream though.   Hmmm wonder how that would sell?   Creamed herring ice cream anyone? 😱

My family on the other hand thinks I am nuts.

Of course they are probably right, but that's fine with me.

Oh my gosh!! I've never had creamed herring but my wife is looking for a recipe right now because once I read what you wrote it made my mouth water. My family also thinks I'm nuts because during the week I live off of herring, sardines, anchovies, olives, marinated mushrooms, goatcheese, blue cheese, limes, pomegranates and all kinds of nuts, that's basically it until the weekend. Thanks for the post, you can always PM me a recipe if you want😁

Link to post
3 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Oh my gosh!! I've never had creamed herring but my wife is looking for a recipe right now because once I read what you wrote it made my mouth water. My family also thinks I'm nuts because during the week I live off of herring, sardines, anchovies, olives, marinated mushrooms, goatcheese, blue cheese, limes, pomegranates and all kinds of nuts, that's basically it until the weekend. Thanks for the post, you can always PM me a recipe if you want😁

Leave off the herring and anchovies and add in sourdough bread (San Francisco style with a crisp, thick, chewy crust and moist, slightly tart interior), roasted garlic, and a great olive oil and balsamic vinegar and you have my preferred lifestyle outside of fruit and plain whole milk yogurt for breakfast.  Unfortunately I get to be low salt now...so a few of those will be rare treats in the future.

Edited by Calm
  • Like 1
Link to post
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...