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10 hours ago, longview said:

My personal opinion is that racism is now very fringe.

What do you make of the BYU Committee's survey of students and of those who report their experience with racism -- do they represent the fringe, and should the fringe take less priority?

Edited by CV75
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4 minutes ago, CV75 said:

What do you make of the BYU Committee's survey of students and of those who report their experience with racism -- do they represent the fringe, and should the fringe take less priority?

Could you extend the courtesy of providing a reference?  I may dig around come up with the wrong report?

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3 minutes ago, longview said:

Could you extend the courtesy of providing a reference?  I may dig around come up with the wrong report?

It is linked in the article in the OP and the subject of this thread, so I'm sure you'll get the right report. The survey provides empirical data to investigate claims of racism rather than ideological bias to complain about them.

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7 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

Atlantic Mike, anecdotal  evidence ends up not working in the end, because there’s always other anecdotes to counter your points. I mentioned immigrant stories here that do not completely give the america is the bestest message. You’ve seemed to largely ignore them. I could point out ither anectdotal moments like going to the Deep South and seeing a very common trend of black people working service jobs while whites largely worked managerial positions.

There are statistics that show blacks making tremendous strides toward middle class prosperity during the 1950's.  But this was countered by SJW (social workers, welfare bureaucracy, what have you) who encouraged more and more of the inner cities people to resort to welfare whenever unwise decisions are made.  Which exacerbated the breakdown of the black nuclear family due to welfare policies of forcing the father out of the home in order to receive benefits for mother and children.  Which led to greater promiscuity among young people.  Thus making the whole spiral into a worse morass of miseries.

We have read of too many stories of inner city school children discounting mathematics because they considered it a "whitey thing" ?  Lack of motivation for excelling in school because people are content to remain on the dole?  Thus unable to land good jobs?  I remember reading many years ago about a wise middle aged black lady who gave great encouragement to young girls to keep their modesty and making prudent choices in life.  But then a bunch of "progressives" (from the universities probably) came into the neighborhood to teach the kids about "liberation" and "advocacy" . . . which intimidated the wise woman and made her move off to the side.

Having a mindset of victimhood is toxic.  You and @MiserereNobis keep insisting on making "Perfection be the Enemy of the Good".  It is plainly obvious many topics (such as reparations) are groundless and corrosive to the human spirit.  I hope you would agree and stop with demonizing American Exceptionalism and embrace the HOPE and optimism for the Constitutional Republic.

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20 minutes ago, longview said:

You and @MiserereNobis keep insisting on making "Perfection be the Enemy of the Good"

CFR that I have insisted on making perfection an enemy of the good.

I mean it. Quote my words, please.

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4 hours ago, longview said:

There are statistics that show blacks making tremendous strides toward middle class prosperity during the 1950's.  But this was countered by SJW (social workers, welfare bureaucracy, what have you) who encouraged more and more of the inner cities people to resort to welfare whenever unwise decisions are made.  Which exacerbated the breakdown of the black nuclear family due to welfare policies of forcing the father out of the home in order to receive benefits for mother and children.  Which led to greater promiscuity among young people.  Thus making the whole spiral into a worse morass of miseries.

We have read of too many stories of inner city school children discounting mathematics because they considered it a "whitey thing" ?  Lack of motivation for excelling in school because people are content to remain on the dole?  Thus unable to land good jobs?  I remember reading many years ago about a wise middle aged black lady who gave great encouragement to young girls to keep their modesty and making prudent choices in life.  But then a bunch of "progressives" (from the universities probably) came into the neighborhood to teach the kids about "liberation" and "advocacy" . . . which intimidated the wise woman and made her move off to the side.

Having a mindset of victimhood is toxic.  You and @MiserereNobis keep insisting on making "Perfection be the Enemy of the Good".  It is plainly obvious many topics (such as reparations) are groundless and corrosive to the human spirit.  I hope you would agree and stop with demonizing American Exceptionalism and embrace the HOPE and optimism for the Constitutional Republic.

I seriously doubt the current¬†anti-white racism and the tearing down of our formerly¬†successful, though imperfect,¬†Constitutional Republic will ever come to an end until the millennium because the ‚Äúempowering‚ÄĚ sensation of implacable hatred¬†and vengeance¬†is too gratifying to the pride of the natural man. There are too many who believe the scales of justice won‚Äôt be balanced until everyone is dragged down into the miserable abyss of hell. As it was in the waning days of¬†the Jaredite¬†and Nephite¬†civilizations,¬†from now on mercy¬†will play a a very¬†distant second fiddle to hatred¬†until the Second Coming¬†of Christ sets things aright again. Until then, the gospel of new beginnings, reconciliation and colorblind¬†love will be viewed as pathetic¬†relics of an unenlightened, regressive age.

Edited by teddyaware
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1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

CFR that I have insisted on making perfection an enemy of the good.

I mean it. Quote my words, please.

You're fighting a good fight but if Atlantic Mike and others want to rely on opinion/anecdotes and logical fallacies then there's really not much you can do to help them. But bravo for trying :) 

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41 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:
1 hour ago, longview said:

You and @MiserereNobis keep insisting on making "Perfection be the Enemy of the Good"

CFR that I have insisted on making perfection an enemy of the good.

I mean it. Quote my words, please.

Gladly.  I already quoted you.  Your statement with your use of the word: "dispute" (please cast your eyes to above post).  At that point you made a value judgment which derailed you from making it strictly about logic.

58 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:
11 hours ago, longview said:

You are committing a red herring of your own when you refuse to acknowledge that human nature is more of critical issue than supposed white supremacist problem.  Human nature should be the focus.  Arguments about white privilege, reparations, black crime rates, etc are pointless and very divisive and completely counter-productive.

Nice straw man! (see here: straw man fallacy) I have said nothing about white privilege, reparations, black crime rates, etc, so you imputing onto me positions I have not discussed. In fact, I have made NO claims at all about white supremacy in America. I have not committed a red herring because I am not arguing about white supremacy. I am only pointing out logical fallacies.

You keep hammering @AtlanticMike about white supremacy and demanding that he prove it.  He does NOT have to.  It is sufficient to demonstrate the general case.  All of our statements support the general case.

Now you are lecturing me about the straw man?  OK, here goes - - - white supremacy is wholly contained within human nature (mathematically speaking it is a proper subset).  Since you "disputed" the claim that white supremacy is NOT predominant, you are also in denial about the general case of human nature being applicable to the discussion.  This is why you are unable to have a balanced view on the role of human nature as it effect race relations (thus causing you to commit a red herring).  The ball is back in your court.

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1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

I seriously doubt the current¬†anti-white racism and the tearing down of our formerly¬†successful, though imperfect,¬†Constitutional Republic will ever come to an end until the millennium because the ‚Äúempowering‚ÄĚ sensation of implacable hatred¬†and vengeance¬†is too gratifying to the pride of the natural man. There are too many who believe the scales of justice won‚Äôt be balanced until everyone is dragged down into the miserable abyss of hell. As it was in the waning days of¬†the Jaredite¬†and Nephites civilizations,¬†from now on mercy¬†will play a a very¬†distant second fiddle to hatre until the Second Coming¬†of Christ sets things aright again. Until then, the gospel of new beginnings, reconciliation and colorblind¬†love will be viewed as pathetic¬†relics of an unenlightened, regressive age.

How do you think this perspective provides insight on the BYU report in the OP (and the survey upon which it is based)?

Given that any kind of racism tears us down, pitting one kind against another is a recipe for failure.

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37 minutes ago, longview said:

Gladly.  I already quoted you.  Your statement with your use of the word: "dispute" (please cast your eyes to above post).  At that point you made a value judgment which derailed you from making it strictly about logic.

"In dispute" (the words I used) is not a value judgement. In this case, it is a statement of fact. In this thread, there is a dispute over whether or not the structures of America are and/or were founded on white supremacy. Some posters here say yes, some say no, therefore it is in dispute. Pointing out that it is in dispute does not place someone on one side or the other. I certainly have my views, but I haven't done anything here but point out bad logic and reasoning.

39 minutes ago, longview said:

You keep hammering @AtlanticMike about white supremacy and demanding that he prove it.

That is not what I am doing. He (and now you) are making arguments that contain logical fallacies. I am pointing out those fallacies. If one wants to make arguments, one needs to use logic. Otherwise the arguments are meaningless.

41 minutes ago, longview said:

Now you are lecturing me about the straw man?  OK, here goes - - - white supremacy is wholly contained within human nature (mathematically speaking it is a proper subset).  Since you "disputed" the claim that white supremacy is NOT predominant, you are also in denial about the general case of human nature being applicable to the discussion.  This is why you are unable to have a balanced view on the role of human nature as it effect race relations (thus causing you to commit a red herring).

This whole quote is based on the bolded premise. That premise, as I showed at the beginning of this post, is wrong. So yes, you are attacking a straw man (still). There is a difference between "dispute" and "in dispute." I said the latter.

43 minutes ago, longview said:

The ball is back in your court.

This is my last post on the subject.

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2 hours ago, CV75 said:
12 hours ago, longview said:

My personal opinion is that racism is now very fringe.

What do you make of the BYU Committee's survey of students and of those who report their experience with racism -- do they represent the fringe, and should the fringe take less priority?

Yes, I did read the report but not thoroughly (it is 64 pages long, I did scan it again).  I was interested in this line:

6. BYU has failed to recruit, hire, and retain an adequately diverse faculty.
    a. BIPOC faculty members at BYU on the continuing faculty status track
        comprise 6.4 percent of the overall faculty.
        This percentage is very low compared to the national average of
         24 percent as of 2018.

Does the 24% figure represent educational institutions only?  It would appear to me that affirmative action and grants went a long ways to make it this high.  As for BYU's 6.4%, several thoughts came to mind:  1- the Honor Code would tend to dampen applications from non-members (of all ethnicities plus Caucasians);  2- need to ask what is the racial makeup of the state of Utah;  3- what is the percentage of BYU studentbody from out of state;  4- I assume the percentage of faculty is higher due to proactive hiring policies (but recruiting needs to be more aggressive still); 5- it must be kept in mind that BYU is well regarded for its academic achievements but it is NOT going to be as internationally cosmopolitan as other elite universities. 

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16 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

This nation is set up so anyone can become successful with hard work and determination.

What is success in your view?  Simply financial independence?

‚ÄĒ‚ÄĒ

And those incapable of hard work or even being determined?  Do you think that is their choice?

Are all homeless on the street because they freely chose to be?
https://mentalillnesspolicy.org/consequences/homeless-mentally-ill.html

 Is everyone failing in school a result of them not studying?  What if a person with learning disabilities lacks the support system required for success or no one is there willing to teach them the appropriate coping strategies?  Is having a learning disability their choice, is it their choice to grow up in a dysfunctional family without appropriate role models and get taught to resort to poor coping strategies?

Can someone in prison for life be successful in your view?  In not, what does that mean for those wrongly convicted?  Or is the wrong conviction their fault so the effects can be ignored, they aren’t really victims?

https://research.msu.edu/innocent-african-americans-more-likely-to-be-wrongfully-convicted/

 

 

Edited by Calm
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6 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

First off, maybe I keep giving you "red herrings" because I eat canned smoked herring atleast once a weekūü§£ūü§£. Actually its really good, so is canned anchovies, or, if you want the best, try king oscar canned sardines in olive oil, dang that's good!! ūüėĀūüėĀūüėĀūüėĀ just kidding, I'm a morning person.

¬† ¬† ¬† Here's were I think you and I are possibly seeing things differently. When I look at America I compare it to the rest of the world, and when I do that I'm grateful to live here. That doesn't mean there's not other places to live in the world that aren't great, but I think America has more to offer someone if they're willing to work their *** off. There's no classism in America compared to other places. My mother in laws family moved here because of classism in the Philippines, they didn't want to move but felt they couldn't go any further in the Philippines, and they love the Philippines. Here's another one, I've already told how my wife's doctor is a African man who came here and is very successful, I also know another african who came here with his wife and he works nonstop, 1 full time job, 1 part time, sells stuff on Ebay, and cleans gutters. He never really spends that much time with his wife but he is always sporting a smile, because he made it here, it was his dream to be able to live here because were he came from he was limited in what he could accomplish. America is not a white supremacist country to him, to him America is 110% freedomūüáļūüáł. The time he doesn't spend with his wife because he's working is worth it to him because deep down he knows how lucky he is to be here and be able to provide a good lifestyle for his little family, the guy is a beast. I have example after example like this, this is my proof, I dont need any other proof.¬†

    I think you want me to prove to you that America isn't a white supremacist country maybe how smac97 would, by offering you articles or written data, I'm not going to do that, on this subject I'm giving you real world data. Like right now, as we speak i have my truck backed up to a loading dock. There's latinos who crossed the border loading my truck with material, there's a black guy that works for me that just walked 100 feet away so he could smoke a joint probably, the salesman I just talked to inside is from Ireland, the house I'm going to today is a Jewish couple from Israel. But somehow you want me to believe America is set up as a white supremacist nation? Nope! 

    Last thing, one thing I've learned in life is some people have to be miserable to actually find a hint of happiness in life, I dont know why, but it's true. Never seeing the positive, always harping on the negative, which is always small compared to the positive in this country. Again,  thanks for talking to me your an interesting person to talk to. 

    

     

.

You are reading things into what MiserereNobis is saying.  M is not agreeing or disagreeing with your stances on racism or white supremacy.  M is is only showing that the things you are using to prove your points are not logical.  

I have found it interesting sometimes what people read into things.  While I know of logical fallacies they are not something I keep in my head well, but I have sometimes made posts being very careful to not show my view of something.  The views people read from those posts are sometimes the opposite of what I feel and sometimes take both sides of the subject.  

The cool thing of the conversation between you is that I am learning how to spot logical fallacies better and how to better not make them.

Edited by Rain
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Mike, I am curious if¬†you believe the US has always been the land of opportunity for ‚Äúanyone‚ÄĚ since we have always had immigrants and success stories among immigrants? ¬†
 

If not, if you acknowledge that there was a time where (reducing the conversation to the most obvious restricted groups) slaves and women had less or no rights as property owners, were seen as intellectually inferior and thus would never be allowed control over money and instead any income went to owners or fathers and husbands, were not allowed to vote in order to create more favorable laws, had limited or no access to higher education even if they wanted it, therefore were not able to use the ladder of success others did and were thus victims of the culture of the US at that time, at what point do you see the culture changing to allowing anyone to be successful?

 What were the limitations to success removed?

 And do you see the limitations completely removed or partly removed?

Edited by Calm
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No Doubt there are pockets of racism throughout the United States. To just say the United States is a white supremacist and racist country as a whole is incorrect.

There is no doubt room for improvement at BYU from outside appearances. I would say that Utah has been culturally strangled for a while but to lump us all together is wrong.

I also think some of your are searching for some mystical thing that can never be.

When I was a trucker I visited All 48 lower States and I can guarantee you there are people that are prejudiced against long-haired blond hippies from California driving real nice rigs. It's a human nature thing.

Edited by rodheadlee
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15 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

No Doubt there are pockets of racism throughout the United States. To just say the United States is a white supremacist and racist country as a whole is incorrect.

Honest question here:

Is there any end game at all? That is: at some point is there a possibility that the United States could no longer be a white supremacist and racist country? 

How will we know when we reach that point? What will the metrics be?

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1 hour ago, longview said:

Yes, I did read the report but not thoroughly (it is 64 pages long, I did scan it again).  I was interested in this line:

6. BYU has failed to recruit, hire, and retain an adequately diverse faculty.
    a. BIPOC faculty members at BYU on the continuing faculty status track
        comprise 6.4 percent of the overall faculty.
        This percentage is very low compared to the national average of
         24 percent as of 2018.

Does the 24% figure represent educational institutions only?  It would appear to me that affirmative action and grants went a long ways to make it this high.  As for BYU's 6.4%, several thoughts came to mind:  1- the Honor Code would tend to dampen applications from non-members (of all ethnicities plus Caucasians);  2- need to ask what is the racial makeup of the state of Utah;  3- what is the percentage of BYU studentbody from out of state;  4- I assume the percentage of faculty is higher due to proactive hiring policies (but recruiting needs to be more aggressive still); 5- it must be kept in mind that BYU is well regarded for its academic achievements but it is NOT going to be as internationally cosmopolitan as other elite universities. 

Yes, I read it as comparing BYU with faculty members at colleges and universities on the continuing faculty status track in the USA.

You seem to imply that BYU should reflect Utah demographics (Church membership, ethnicity, race, out-of-state students) and perceived sophistication. But should it, according to its mission and its trajectory in these kinds of measures?

Do you find the Faculty Reforms section (recommendations 22-26) excessive in terms of BYU’s mission and President Worthen’s instructions?

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8 minutes ago, rongo said:

Honest question here:

Is there any end game at all? That is: at some point is there a possibility that the United States could no longer be a white supremacist and racist country? 

How will we know when we reach that point? What will the metrics be?

Honest answer here: it depends on what metrics, definitions and context you are using to conclude whether the USA is a white supremacist and racist country.

How do you see these questions applying to the report and the scope of the report? 

 

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1 hour ago, Calm said:

What is success in your view?  Simply financial independence?

Success is learning how to control your thoughts and not letting your thoughts control you.

1 hour ago, Calm said:

And those incapable of hard work or even being determined?  Do you think that is their choice?

Could be, it depends, do you mind giving me examples?

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Is everyone failing in school a result of them not studying?  What if a person with learning disabilities lacks the support system required for success or no one is there willing to teach them the appropriate coping strategies?  Is having a learning disability their choice, is it their choice to grow up in a dysfunctional family without appropriate role models and get taught to resort to poor coping strategies?

I failed school because of a learning disability, I barley passed my GED. My SAT was a 460 english but I got a 740 math. I think 400 is the lowest you can get and I barely passed english because I have a terrible time reading and writing. If you read my sentences, sometimes I'll get a string of 2 to 3 words completely backwards or put them in the wrong place. Writing on this board is the hardest thing I do all day. I'll read these post 10x before pushing submit because I'm trying to catch mistakes. But as you can tell I miss alot. My wife actually comes on here as a guest and reads what I write then when I get home sometimes she will tell me what I got wrong. I suck at english/writing but I dont make excuses, I keep going and I dont give up. I'm actually getting better. 

   I grew up in a dysfunctional family. When I first came on here one of first threads on the social board I talked about sleeping in the church at night. I did that because of how dysfunctional my home was. It was easier on me to stay at the church then get up and go to school. I've been to dozens of therapists, I was in a boys home when I was young and my parents signed me over to the state so I could go there. I've been on countless medications when I was young. My point in telling you this is because I want you to know I didnt let any of this crap define who I am or who I strive to be. I determine who i am, not my shortcomings or someone else who thinks they know better. Today, I take no medications for depression.

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Can someone in prison for life be successful in your view?  In not, what does that mean for those wrongly convicted?  Or is the wrong conviction their fault so the effects can be ignored, they aren’t really victims?

Yes, someone in prison can be successful. Like I said, the biggest success in life is learning how to control your thoughts. 

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Are all homeless on the street because they freely chose to be?

Again, I think I've talked about this on here. I deal with the homeless all the time. I hire a few guys that live at the beach to pick up trash for me every once in a while. Most homeless people in my experience are on the street because of drugs or severe mental problems. 

Edited by AtlanticMike
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1 minute ago, CV75 said:

Honest answer here: it depends on what metrics, definitions and context you are using to conclude whether the USA is a white supremacist and racist country.

How do you see these questions applying to the report and the scope of the report? 

I'm thinking more big picture than the BYU report. I'm wondering if, like a hypochondriac getting better, there is actually no chance America can ever be not racist and not white supremacist. I'm wondering if the system will ever be not systemically racist, and how we will know that that is the case. 

That's a bigger question than BYU. I'm wondering if there is any hope for tangible improvement over the way things stand right now, and how we would even measure that, outside of anecdotes and quotas. 

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18 minutes ago, rongo said:

I'm thinking more big picture than the BYU report. I'm wondering if, like a hypochondriac getting better, there is actually no chance America can ever be not racist and not white supremacist. I'm wondering if the system will ever be not systemically racist, and how we will know that that is the case. 

That's a bigger question than BYU. I'm wondering if there is any hope for tangible improvement over the way things stand right now, and how we would even measure that, outside of anecdotes and quotas. 

As I said (before narrowing it down to BYU), it depends on what metrics, definitions and context you are using to conclude whether the USA is a white supremacist and racist country.

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