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50 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

First, do you think only white people can be racist? I'm asking so I can understand where you're coming from.

    Cv75, only watch the video below if you're ok with the F word every fifth word😁. David is a little worse than me when it comes to cussing. But, he explains perfectly how I see race. He and I could be twins and I'm proud of it. He's a cool dude. This video will help explain where I'm coming from.

It depends on the definition and support you are using. I asked you for an empirically demonstrated definition of reverse racism since I cannot find one. The BYU report is based on a survey on racism. Do you have something similar for revere racism?

If you want to start a thread on where you are coming from instead of how you empirically view the BYU survey and report as reverse racism, that would be fine with me.

A number of folks have called out your logical fallacies, which I've pretty much avoided doing. This might be another reason for you to originate your own thread to more directly state and test where you are coming from.

Edited by CV75
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13 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

He's a cool dude. 

If it is true what he said at the beginning that in his life typically being able to intentionally be the only black guy in a room full of whites, he has a lot more control over his life situations than many people do.  Also after reading wiki, it sounds like he was blessed with a body that adapts easily to different situations as well as natural talents for strength and speed.  I would be hesitant therefore in making assumptions about other people’s situations and the control they have over their life based on his experiences.

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2 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Eguivocation: you are saying white supremacy is the same as slavery

I never said that.

 

2 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Red herring: you are shifting the discussion away from white supremacy in the US to slavery in the world.

Again your wrong. I didnt try to shift anything. First, the US is not a white supremacy nation, it's a shame you feel that way. My point with showing how there's still 45 million slaves today, right now as we speak,  is to show that the vast majority of slaves aren't found in majority white countries. Majority white countries have done away with selling slaves, but there is still sex slaves just about everywhere. I think it's funny that Progressives lose their sxxt when someone points out that white people aren't as bad as they want you to think they are. 

     I treat everyone the same, and I especially dont make BIPOC'S out to be victims.

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4 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

White supremacy exists with and without slavery. By your logic, race should not be a protected class since slavery is legal in other countries. It is ridiculous.

Stop making people of color in the USA out to be victims, that's ridiculous!!

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7 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Stop making people of color in the USA out to be victims, that's ridiculous!!

You could simply ask how white supremacy manifests beyond and after slavery. Some obvious major examples include Jim Crow laws, segregation in public facilities, and anti-misceganation. Past and current examples include voter suppression and wide-scale discrimination. 

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25 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

You could simply ask how white supremacy manifests beyond and after slavery. Some obvious major examples include Jim Crow laws, segregation in public facilities, and anti-misceganation. Past and current examples include voter suppression and wide-scale discrimination. 

We don't have these problems in California so you all had better get with it.

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32 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:
1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said:

First, the US is not a white supremacy nation

This is the claim that is in dispute. You can't just state it as fact. You need to prove it.

This is a charge that in my opinion has been over generalized.  What is the real focus?  Human nature.  Which can include prejudice, fear of the unknown, and a whole raft of misunderstandings and irrational intolerance (sometimes violent).  The entire human species is capable of it regardless of race.  Even blacks have fallen prey to this corrosive mindset.  Witness how followers of the Nation of Islam led by Louis Farrakhan teach that "white people" are devils.  Other blacks (including those outside of Islam) sometimes deride for being too black or too light.

This charge of white supremacy (or white privilege) has been weaponized by social justice "warriors" and gone way overboard.  To the point of wanting to erase history, deligitimize the US Constitution, demonize white people unfairly.

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37 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

(I just finished work, so I have time to give you the smac treatment 😁)

But you did, in your reply. Look:

Your rebuttal to Meadowchick was to show that we have eradicated slavery.

The only way your rebuttal works is if white supremacy equals slavery. If white supremacy doesn't equal slavery, then your rebuttal is meaningless; it simply doesn't matter if we've eradicated slavery or not. So the logic employed in your rebuttal is that supremacy equals slavery. But the problem is that the two are not equal, so you have equivocated the two. In fact, you actually give proof that the two are not equal, since slavery exists in countries whose majority is not white.

Yes, you did. You shifted the discussion from white supremacy to the eradication of slavery. Now, if white supremacy equals slavery, then you haven't shifted the discussion. But again, the two terms are not synonymous -- it was an equivocation.

Equivocation and red herring are two logical fallacies that go together very nicely. That's why I said it was a sneaky one-two punch :) 

To be clear, I'm not saying you did this on purpose or were intentionally trying to deceive or anything like that. People use logical fallacies unknowingly all the time. I'm just pointing out that your counter-argument doesn't work because it is logically fallacious. You'll need to come up with a different rebuttal.

This is the claim that is in dispute. You can't just state it as fact. You need to prove it.

I didn't say I felt that way (or any other way). I was simply showing that your argument was logically fallacious.

This is the red herring. This is the shifting of the discussion to something else. The discussion is whether or not the US is and/or was founded on white supremacy. The fact that a majority of slaves aren't found in majority white countries doesn't prove or disprove whether or not the US is and/or was founded on white supremacy. It's irrelevant. That's why it's a red herring.

The example given before using your same logic is a good one. If a man hits his wife, he can't point to other men who have murdered their wives as evidence that he is not committing spousal abuse. What the other men have done has absolutely no bearing on whether or not this particular man is abusing his wife.

Likewise, pointing to slavery in other nations has absolutely no bearing on whether or not the US is and/or was founded on white supremacy.

I don't think anyone here is losing their sh*t.

I have no reason to disbelieve you.

I will say, though, that there have been many studies about biases we have that we are blind to, where we think we treat and/or view everyone the same, but we actually don't. It's worth thinking about.

 

For the bolded.  I remember seeing a bias for the first time 20 years ago.  An online friend who was American Indian talked about how if a books describes a white person it doesn't say the person was white.  It says the person has red hair or brown eyes etc.  If the person is describing a person of color then almost always the person is described by race.  Now you don't see that if the book is set in China or within a a Native American tribe usually, but if the book is set in the modern US it almost always is (as well as other places.)

At first I answered back the idea that there are so many hair or eye colors in white people that it makes sense.  See my first blindness there? - I didn't recognize the differences in people of other races. 

So 20 years later it amazes me how often it all happens.  No one ever says, the "white" guy with blond hair", but almost all of the time you read the "black" woman with long hair.

My bias was I never even noticed that was happening and then I fought for my bias by trying to explain how it is ok to not use race with white people and how it makes sense to do it with people of color.

 

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4 minutes ago, longview said:

This is a charge that in my opinion has been over generalized.  What is the real focus?  Human nature.  Which can include prejudice, fear of the unknown, and a whole raft of misunderstandings and irrational intolerance (sometimes violent).  The entire human species is capable of it regardless of race.  Even blacks have fallen prey to this corrosive mindset.  Witness how followers of the Nation of Islam led by Louis Farrakhan teach that "white people" are devils.  Other blacks (including those outside of Islam) sometimes deride for being too black or too light.

This charge of white supremacy (or white privilege) has been weaponized by social justice "warriors" and gone way overboard.  To the point of wanting to erase history, deligitimize the US Constitution, demonize white people unfairly.

When people talk about white supremacy what they are usually talking about is the idea that white people are the best kind of people, generally speaking... better civilized, better educated, higher or more advanced or prominent in society, etc.  

It took me a while to see the signs of that notion being prevalent in the US of A, but I can definitely see it now and how it has been a part of American culture for quite a while now.  Try watching old TV shows and movies from the past, like Perry Mason and Leave it to Beaver and the Brady Bunch and just keep looking for that same kind of thing as the years have rolled on.  I do think there is less of that notion in society now than there has been in the past, but it is still out there and not only in the more rural communities.

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1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said:

Stop making people of color in the USA out to be victims, that's ridiculous!!

Well, there are a lot of black people who have a lot of money, at least, if that is an actual indication of not being a victim.  If only Bill Gates was a black man.  But then again Oprah Winfrey has done very well, financially, for a black woman.

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1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

(I just finished work, so I have time to give you the smac treatment 😁)

But you did, in your reply. Look:

Your rebuttal to Meadowchick was to show that we have eradicated slavery.

The only way your rebuttal works is if white supremacy equals slavery. If white supremacy doesn't equal slavery, then your rebuttal is meaningless; it simply doesn't matter if we've eradicated slavery or not. So the logic employed in your rebuttal is that supremacy equals slavery. But the problem is that the two are not equal, so you have equivocated the two. In fact, you actually give proof that the two are not equal, since slavery exists in countries whose majority is not white.

Yes, you did. You shifted the discussion from white supremacy to the eradication of slavery. Now, if white supremacy equals slavery, then you haven't shifted the discussion. But again, the two terms are not synonymous -- it was an equivocation.

Equivocation and red herring are two logical fallacies that go together very nicely. That's why I said it was a sneaky one-two punch :) 

To be clear, I'm not saying you did this on purpose or were intentionally trying to deceive or anything like that. People use logical fallacies unknowingly all the time. I'm just pointing out that your counter-argument doesn't work because it is logically fallacious. You'll need to come up with a different rebuttal.

This is the claim that is in dispute. You can't just state it as fact. You need to prove it.

I didn't say I felt that way (or any other way). I was simply showing that your argument was logically fallacious.

This is the red herring. This is the shifting of the discussion to something else. The discussion is whether or not the US is and/or was founded on white supremacy. The fact that a majority of slaves aren't found in majority white countries doesn't prove or disprove whether or not the US is and/or was founded on white supremacy. It's irrelevant. That's why it's a red herring.

The example given before using your same logic is a good one. If a man hits his wife, he can't point to other men who have murdered their wives as evidence that he is not committing spousal abuse. What the other men have done has absolutely no bearing on whether or not this particular man is abusing his wife.

Likewise, pointing to slavery in other nations has absolutely no bearing on whether or not the US is and/or was founded on white supremacy.

I don't think anyone here is losing their sh*t.

I have no reason to disbelieve you.

I will say, though, that there have been many studies about biases we have that we are blind to, where we think we treat and/or view everyone the same, but we actually don't. It's worth thinking about.

 

Dang I cant answer all that right now, but I'll try in about an hour. First, to help me out, what do you consider a white supremacist/ white supremacy?

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1 hour ago, Ahab said:

But then again Oprah Winfrey has done very well, financially, for a black woman.

Oprah is a BILLIONAIRE.  Don't say it grudgingly.  She has done BETTER than 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% . . .:friends:

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6 minutes ago, longview said:

Oprah is a BILLIONAIRE.  Don't say it grudgingly.  She has done BETTER than 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% . . .:friends:

Last time I checked Bill still has more mammon than Oprah does, though, by quite a few billions of dollars, American.  I still wish Bill was a black man.

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14 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Last time I checked Bill still has more mammon than Oprah does, though, by quite a few billions of dollars, American.  I still wish Bill was a black man.

But Bill is SO nerdy.  Oprah is WAY cooler and hip.  :acute:

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2 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

. You need to prove it

First off, one thing I've realized from being on this board is nothing is ever proven on here.  You and I will probably never agree on this issue because we see it totally differently and that's ok. You will never convince me this nation is a white supremacist nation and there's nothing I can say to you to show you it's not. Here's what I'll end with. I have lived my entire life treating everyone I come in contact with exactly the same. I dont look at anyone and think, oh, that person is a victim. My kids look more Filipino than white, I have never one time told them to live life differently because their skin is darker than most of the people in this country. In my entire life, meeting 1000s upon 1000s of people, I can say I've only met one person that I might of considered to be a white supremacist. This nation is set up so anyone can become successful with hard work and determination. Was it a tough road getting here? Yes! The Declaration of Independence and american values have done more than most people realize to set people free, not just in this country, but around the world. I'm grateful to live here and will always do everything I can to build America up so my kids and grandkids can enjoy the same freedoms I do. 

      As you read this, 1000s of people of color are walking 100s of miles to get here for a chance of freedom and to have a better life for their family. My question to you, why would these people be walking to a country of white supremacy?? Doesnt make sense.

     

    

      

      

 

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2 hours ago, longview said:

This is a charge that in my opinion has been over generalized.  What is the real focus?  Human nature.  Which can include prejudice, fear of the unknown, and a whole raft of misunderstandings and irrational intolerance (sometimes violent).  The entire human species is capable of it regardless of race.  Even blacks have fallen prey to this corrosive mindset.  Witness how followers of the Nation of Islam led by Louis Farrakhan teach that "white people" are devils.  Other blacks (including those outside of Islam) sometimes deride for being too black or too light.

This charge of white supremacy (or white privilege) has been weaponized by social justice "warriors" and gone way overboard.  To the point of wanting to erase history, deligitimize the US Constitution, demonize white people unfairly.

👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

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4 hours ago, Calm said:

If it is true what he said at the beginning of his life typically being able to intentionally be the only black guy in a room full of whites, he has a lot more control over his life situations than many people do.  Also after reading wiki, it sounds like he was blessed with a body that adapts easily to different situations as well as natural talents for strength and speed.  I would be hesitant therefore in making assumptions about other people’s situations and the control they have over their life based on his experiences.

He lost over a 100lbs to join special forces. Did he change his body? Yes! But more importantly he changed the way he viewed the world, that's what has made him the man he is today. 

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41 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

First off, one thing I've realized from being on this board is nothing is ever proven on here.

But that doesn't mean you can just say whatever you want without providing an argument an evidence.

Well, I suppose you can say whatever you want, but you're not going to convince anyone unless you give evidence.

42 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

You and I will probably never agree on this issue because we see it totally differently and that's ok. You will never convince me this nation is a white supremacist nation and there's nothing I can say to you to show you it's not.

I haven't told you my position. I've only pointed out that you were using faulty logic. You keep trying to defend your claim. I was attacking your logic. And my attack on your logic is spot on. You'll need to use different reasoning to support your claims, because you were using logical fallacies.

44 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

This nation is set up so anyone can become successful with hard work and determination

Do you think the set up of the nation can be improved or is everything fine just the way it is now?

45 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

I'm grateful to live here and will always do everything I can to build America up so my kids and grandkids can enjoy the same freedoms I do. 

I suppose this answers my previous question -- it appears that you believe things can be improved.

45 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

As you read this, 1000s of people of color are walking 100s of miles to get here for a chance of freedom and to have a better life for their family. My question to you, why would these people be walking to a country of white supremacy?? Doesnt make sense.

This was already addressed earlier. People will leave terrible situations for better ones. It doesn't mean the better ones don't have problems.

In the 1800s Chinese and Irish immigrants came to America. They left terrible situations behind for better ones. But you can't say that because they left those situations behind they didn't experience racism and discrimination. They most certainly did, so your argument here doesn't work out either. Immigration isn't proof that racism doesn't exist.

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7 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

In the 1800s Chinese and Irish immigrants came to America. They left terrible situations behind for better ones. But you can't say that because they left those situations behind they didn't experience racism and discrimination. They most certainly did, so your argument here doesn't work out either. Immigration isn't proof that racism doesn't exist.

It does work, maybe not for you. Your totally missing the point! As you said, alot of people come here because the want a CHANCE at a better life. America is not perfect, nowhere is. But people will risk dehydration, sharks, drowning, hide inside the cargo storage of airplanes, dig under fences just to get here, that should tell you something about America. Again,America is not a white supremacist country. If so, people would be walking out of the country instead of towards it.

   And I did provide evidence, just not the evidence you want, lifes funny that way.

  Thank you for responding.

     

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1 minute ago, AtlanticMike said:

As you said, alot of people come here because the want a CHANCE at a better life.

Oh no! We're back at another red herring. Discussing whether or not America gives someone a chance at a better life is irrelevant to whether or not America has structures of white supremacy. In other words, both can be true. America can give someone a chance at a better life and *also* have structures of white supremacy. The two are not mutually exclusive, so what you say does not prove that America doesn't have white supremacy. That means that you have an argument with faulty (fallacious) logic.

And I'll say it again. I have not stated my position here. I am just criticizing your logic.

5 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

But people will risk dehydration, sharks, drowning, hide inside the cargo storage of airplanes, dig under fences just to get here, that should tell you something about America.

Yes, it certainly does say something about America, something very good. However, it does not say anything about whether or not America has issues of racism and white supremacy. As I said above, the fact that people want a chance at a better life does not prove that America isn't racist.

7 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Again,America is not a white supremacist country

Your evidence does not support this claim. An argument is a claim supported by evidence. The "supported by" is logic. Your argument has faulty logic, as I've shown above.

8 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Again,America is not a white supremacist country. If so, people would be walking out of the country instead of towards it.

What if walking out of a racist country is walking into a worse situation than walking into a racist country? If that's the case, then your evidence that people aren't leaving doesn't support your claim.

And I think it's pretty easy to show that the situations most immigrants from central America are leaving are worse than the claimed racism they would experience in America. It doesn't mean the claimed racism doesn't exist.

And again (I'll just keep repeating this). I'm not arguing for a position here. I'm criticizing your logic and reasoning.

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16 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

 And I did provide evidence, just not the evidence you want, lifes funny that way.

Oops, I meant to respond to this in my post above, but you know dissecting something smac style can be logistically hard, ha :) 

Yes, you did provide evidence. The only preference right now I have about your evidence is that it supports your claim. Your evidence does not support your claims. It is illogical. Notice that I have not questioned your evidence at all. It is not necessary to question your evidence when it does not logically connect to your claim.

If you'd like, you can google "red herring" because it is the logical fallacy you keep committing.

16 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Thank you for responding.

And thanks to you, too! :) 

Edit:

Here's the entry for red herring on wiki:

Quote

As an informal fallacy, the red herring falls into a broad class of relevance fallacies. Unlike the straw man, which involves a distortion of the other party's position,[2] the red herring is a seemingly plausible, though ultimately irrelevant, diversionary tactic.[3] According to the Oxford English Dictionary, a red herring may be intentional, or unintentional; it is not necessarily a conscious intent to mislead.[1]

The expression is mainly used to assert that an argument is not relevant to the issue being discussed. For example, "I think we should make the academic requirements stricter for students. I recommend you support this because we are in a budget crisis, and we do not want our salaries affected." The second sentence, though used to support the first sentence, does not address that topic.

 

Edited by MiserereNobis
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1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

Oops, I meant to respond to this in my post above, but you know dissecting something smac style can be logistically hard, ha :)

Did you mean logically or logistically?  They are NOT the same thing - - -
Logistics is the term which generally means the management of transportation of information, from one place to another. Logistics involves things like transportation, inventory, packaging, supplies and sometimes, social security and warehousing.
Logistics refers to the overall process of managing how resources are acquired, stored, and transported to their final destination. ... The term is now used widely in the business sector, particularly by companies in the manufacturing sectors, to refer to how resources are handled and moved along the supply chain.

lo·gis·ti·cal·ly
/ˌləˈjistik(ə)lē/
adverb
in a way that relates to logistics.
"they offered their support both financially and logistically"
Logistically is defined as something done in a practical way. If it is impossible to align your schedules so everyone can arrive somewhere at the same time, this is an example of when it is logistically impossible for everyone to arrive together. adverb.

See?  I can nitpick just as good as you!

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

If you'd like, you can google "red herring" because it is the logical fallacy you keep committing.

You have said:  "This is the claim that is in dispute. You can't just state it as fact. You need to prove it."  You are browbeating @AtlanticMike for asserting that America is NOT a racist country generally and therefore NOT white supremacist country generally.  Most people would agree that America has made great strides for racial egalitarianism since the 1960's.  You are insisting that "Perfection be the Enemy of the Good".  My personal opinion is that racism is now very fringe.  If Obama had not stoked greater division by making needless recriminations against the general public, we would have been further along with more comprehensive multi-level integration.

You are committing a red herring of your own when you refuse to acknowledge that human nature is more of critical issue than supposed white supremacist problem.  Human nature should be the focus.  Arguments about white privilege, reparations, black crime rates, etc are pointless and very divisive and completely counter-productive.

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8 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Oh no! We're back at another red herring. Discussing whether or not America gives someone a chance at a better life is irrelevant to whether or not America has structures of white supremacy. In other words, both can be true. A

First off, maybe I keep giving you "red herrings" because I eat canned smoked herring atleast once a week🤣🤣. Actually its really good, so is canned anchovies, or, if you want the best, try king oscar canned sardines in olive oil, dang that's good!! 😁😁😁😁 just kidding, I'm a morning person.

      Here's were I think you and I are possibly seeing things differently. When I look at America I compare it to the rest of the world, and when I do that I'm grateful to live here. That doesn't mean there's not other places to live in the world that aren't great, but I think America has more to offer someone if they're willing to work their *** off. There's no classism in America compared to other places. My mother in laws family moved here because of classism in the Philippines, they didn't want to move but felt they couldn't go any further in the Philippines, and they love the Philippines. Here's another one, I've already told how my wife's doctor is a African man who came here and is very successful, I also know another african who came here with his wife and he works nonstop, 1 full time job, 1 part time, sells stuff on Ebay, and cleans gutters. He never really spends that much time with his wife but he is always sporting a smile, because he made it here, it was his dream to be able to live here because were he came from he was limited in what he could accomplish. America is not a white supremacist country to him, to him America is 110% freedom🇺🇸. The time he doesn't spend with his wife because he's working is worth it to him because deep down he knows how lucky he is to be here and be able to provide a good lifestyle for his little family, the guy is a beast. I have example after example like this, this is my proof, I dont need any other proof. 

    I think you want me to prove to you that America isn't a white supremacist country maybe how smac97 would, by offering you articles or written data, I'm not going to do that, on this subject I'm giving you real world data. Like right now, as we speak i have my truck backed up to a loading dock. There's latinos who crossed the border loading my truck with material, there's a black guy that works for me that just walked 100 feet away so he could smoke a joint probably, the salesman I just talked to inside is from Ireland, the house I'm going to today is a Jewish couple from Israel. But somehow you want me to believe America is set up as a white supremacist nation? Nope! 

    Last thing, one thing I've learned in life is some people have to be miserable to actually find a hint of happiness in life, I dont know why, but it's true. Never seeing the positive, always harping on the negative, which is always small compared to the positive in this country. Again,  thanks for talking to me your an interesting person to talk to. 

    

     

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