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Bombshell BYU announcement


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15 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I would guess it is meant to combat those who believe that protective hairstyles (like different kinds of braids or cornrows, etc. often worn by people of color) are prohibited under the 'no extreme hairstyles' part of the dress code.  

Also, things like nose rings for Hindus (which are a part of the religion) or turbans (for sikhs), probably wouldn't fly under the previous dress code. 

I wasn't even thinking about nonmembers being there! There are a number of religious things that wouldn't fit the dress code.

15 minutes ago, bluebell said:

(or like Rain pointed out about long hair on men for Native Americans)

 

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1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I've been intentionally avoiding this conversation because, to be honest, BYU is a non-entity to the vast majority of Church members in the world.

But the sole exception to this may be how its 'dress code' seems to get exported. For example, when we have big gatherings for youth here (forgot what they're called), they come complete with BYU's rules on dress and grooming. I could never figure out why this would be so, and it often creates significant grief for our kids, many of whom don't look like BYU students at all. I've been asked by young men why they're fine to attend church, participate in priesthood ordinances, attend the temple, etc., but then some big American youth thing happens on a regional scale, and somehow they have to completely alter their hair (including facial), clothing, footwear, etc. I've never had an answer for them besides 'cultural imperialism'. (And yes, I realise that they'll face a similar situation in serving a mission, but changing one's entire look for two years of dedicated, full-time service seems to make sense to most young people whereas changing their entire look for a few days of cheesy fun doesn't.)

So yeah, despite the fact that zero young people here will ever attend BYU, I'd love to see its 'dress code' die a quick death ... or at least be modified to acknowledge that there are multiple ways to look 'neat and comely' across cultures and geographies.

I’ve experienced a little bit of this when dealing with church run camps for youth activities during the summer.     Their rules often made no sense (like forbidding swimsuits on girls for water activities). I’m hopeful such ideas will slowly fade away. 

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5 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Always enjoy your posts. Pressing “return/enter” twice in the middle of a quote works for me to split it from my phone.  Ymmv. 

Thanks! I don’t have a tech savvy bone in my body. I’ll be sure to try it.

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14 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

I'm going to give my opinion one time on this thread then leave because I don't do political threads, and this has turned into a political thread. The only reason I'm even typing this is for the youth reading this thread. To the youth reading this, what you see on display in this thread is a bunch of people trying to put you in categories to make themselves feel better, it has way more to do with their "guilt" then has to do with you. So I come to offer you a different opinion!!! College has become a cesspool. While in high school most kids are brainwashed into believing that the only way they can make something of themselves is to go to college, that's a lie! There are many trades you can make $60 to $130 an hour by becoming self employed, no college bullxxxx needed. For instance, I'm a contractor and I'll regularly pay plumbers $90 an hour to work on my customers houses. Hvac contractors make bank also. Landscapers make great money, along with 100s of other trades. Starting your own business, working extremely hard and being 100% honest with customers can be very rewarding emotionally and monetarily. Now to anyone who isnt white, I want to say this because this thread is ridiculous, 99.5% of white people love you. As a contractor I hire people from all cultures and with different skin tones. I dont care what they look like, as long as they work hard. I promise you, if you choose to become self employed and work hard, no one will care what color your skin is, and they won't care if you don't have a college degree. 

    I'm going to tell you one story to make my point. I'm a roofer and I hire all kinds of people with different skin colors when they come out jail, mostly people with possession charges, but I've also hired people who have rape charges or assault charges.  I took a chance an hired a black guy who just got out of jail on assault charges, I was a little worried because he had beat up a cop and tried to take his gun. Well, he was a terrible roofer so I offered to help him start his own business and he became a landscaper. I bought him a used riding lawnmower, pushmower, weedeater and a trailer for a total of $1900. After getting a business license and insurance he was in debt a total of $2200. He paid me back within 6 months and now, 7 years later he has over 40 yards he maintains, including my yard. He drives a $60,000 truck and owns his own home, no college neccessary. And by the way, all his customers are white. If a felon with an assault charge can find a way to be successful, so can you!!! 

    Read above what the poster, The Nehor wrote. He thinks ridicule and shame are the way you change society, be careful of people who think like this, most of them live miserable lives and listening to them can put you in a very miserable mindset, it's contagious.

    Be glad you live in America, be glad with the way you look and go out there and make something of yourself. There's all kinds of people who are just waiting for you to help them out. If you choose to be self employed and take a chance you'll feel really good about yourself. I love you no matter your skin color and so do most people no matter their skin color. 

 

 

Mama don't let your babies grow up to be Carpenters. Definitely choose plumber, electrician or HVAC. They always make more money than we do.

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On 3/2/2021 at 7:25 PM, bluebell said:

That they refer to "all students" and are not saying that BYU plans on discriminating against white students.

The "all students" and "particularly charged with" seems to establish that there is will be priority class and less priority class.   It is difficult to imagine how a group "particularly charged with"  isn't going to favor certain students over other students.  But at the moment it is all academic.  Thank you for responding, I was curious as to your input based on the actual recommendation wording.

 

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On 3/2/2021 at 1:47 PM, BlueDreams said:

So for example let’s say we have two kids who both dance. One did ballet for 4 years and was a solid performer but likely won’t do much with it past high school. The other was an amazing hoop dancer who received a lot of recognition in their  community and would likely make it into a dance troop like living legends. Because a white body may be more familiar with ballet and the rigors it takes they may weigh this achievement as more substantial than the hoop dancer. This would be a cultural-based bias that gives an unfair advantage to the white student. 

What would you propose for the tie-breaker. It almost seems that where applications are comparable and essentially tie, that the final decision should not involve a human.

I understand your point about the "cultural bias" , how would the reverse of your analogy be avoided, where reviewer (because of their culture) is more familiar with hoop dancing than ballet. 

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7 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Mama don't let your babies grow up to be Carpenters. Definitely choose plumber, electrician or HVAC. They always make more money than we do.

Hahaha🤣🤣  but dont forget, jesus was a carpenter! It's a rewarding trade.

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11 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

For example, when we have big gatherings for youth here (forgot what they're called), they come complete with BYU's rules on dress and grooming. I could never figure out why this would be so,

From what I've heard, EFY is a BYU program and so ends up with BYU enforced expectations about how its run. Many places find it easier to just run with EFY than do their own thing from scratch.

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18 hours ago, smac97 said:

No, I am no suggesting that.  Race-based discrimination is wrong, no matter whom it favors or disfavors.

I question that "Whites, Jews and Asians" enjoy some "favorable status quo" at BYU by virtue of their race.  If they did, there would be lawsuits aplenty.

Sure.  

I am counting Asians and Jews along with Whites as being racial groups who have been discriminated against at other colleges and universities because of their race.  I am further suggesting that this is wrong.  I am further expressing concern about this formally implemented at BYU.

Right.  I am expressing concern for some aspects of some of the policies.

When I was in law school are wrote an article about racial profiling at airports (this was shortly after 9/11).  I came to appreciate how difficult it is to incorporate race as a factor in treatment of individuals.  

My concern is that formally adopting expressly race-based policies will result in what we have seen at other colleges and universities: de facto discrimination against disfavored racial categories (most likely Asians, Jews and Whites).  None of my kids is interested in attending BYU, so I have no personal interest on that score.  And I would be similarly concerned if BYU were to adopt race-based policies that resulted in de jure or de facto discrimination against Blacks, Hispanics, Native Americans or Polynesians.  

My concer is that race-based discrimination is bad, that the proposed policies will end up fomenting some measure of discrimination, and that BYU should not be in the business of discriminating based on race.

Thanks,

-Smac

I understand your concern and appreciate your differentiating between what I might call socially- or morally-debatable discrimination and unlawful discrimination. I think your use of the opinion and analysis news articles that address unlawful discrimination to make a point about "socially- or morally-debatable discrimination" might create some confusion over where you are coming from. Public debate may create new terms or enforcement of what constitutes unlawful discrimination.

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3 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I understand your concern and appreciate your differentiating between what I might call socially- or morally-debatable discrimination and unlawful discrimination. I think your use of the opinion and analysis news articles that address unlawful discrimination to make a point about "socially- or morally-debatable discrimination" might create some confusion over where you are coming from.

Point well taken.  Fortunately, I am readily available and willing to answer any questions from those who may feel confusion about where I am coming from.  And I have written quite a bit to explain where I am coming from.  

The legality of race-based admissions at colleges and universities is a relevant, but secondary, consideration for me - at least at this point.  I am sure BYU will only adopt policies that it believes are prmitted by law.  But that's a pretty low threshold.  

Thanks,

-Smac

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17 hours ago, bluebell said:

There might be, put it's still off putting.

In these situations I always think of something Dr. Phil used to say (I haven't watched him in more than a decade so it's dated) when some adult was talking about their kid or their spouse--about what was wrong with them or what the adult was doing that was right compared to the kid or the spouse--and they'd start throwing in therapy terms or psychological terms.  He would call them on it every time.  Not because the terms were wrong or they were using them wrong but because they were usually using the terms as a form of street cred.  Kind of an "obviously I know what I'm talking about and am right because I'm using the correct lingo) thing.  The thing was, the adult might be able to use the right terms, but it had absolutely no bearing on them doing the right things.

That's what I feel like BYU's thing is--an attempt to gain street cred by using the terms that society says must be used.  But the terms muddy the waters and have no real impact on the changes BYU is trying to make.  

That is an understandable take, but I see the Committee's language as more sincere and authentic, or perhaps rather more reflective of, the shared racial experieince of its membership. I think they might be taking a risk by not using easier-to-digest, more white- or conservative-sounding language. Yet perhaps the rationale for doing so demonstrates the divide that needs to be bridged and that the "whiter" or "more conservative" institutional powers that be need to back up their interest in setting up the Committee with a willingness to not restrain them in by requiring them to talk like white conservatives. President Worthen seems to have picked up on some the terms, I think, in an effort to empathize with their experience and acknowledge the authenticity and good faith behind the recommendations. BIPOC will use these terms not because they are ideologically manipulated to do so, but because they are the best words to use to describe their experience. White people generally have no need to do that.

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18 hours ago, SteveO said:

Why is the anti race club always headed by the whitest guy anyone knows?

Hopefully it is in the spirit of lifting the burden of educating others from the shoulders of minorities alone -- even sharing it -- and exemplifying that white people can be educated on race issues. Race is simply a burden they have never had to deal with in terms of their standing in society by virtue of the color of their skin (zero awareness/acknowledgement).

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41 minutes ago, CV75 said:

That is an understandable take, but I see the Committee's language as more sincere and authentic, or perhaps rather more reflective of, the shared racial experieince of its membership. I think they might be taking a risk by not using easier-to-digest, more white- or conservative-sounding language. Yet perhaps the rationale for doing so demonstrates the divide that needs to be bridged and that the "whiter" or "more conservative" institutional powers that be need to back up their interest in setting up the Committee with a willingness to not restrain them in by requiring them to talk like white conservatives. President Worthen seems to have picked up on some the terms, I think, in an effort to empathize with their experience and acknowledge the authenticity and good faith behind the recommendations. BIPOC will use these terms not because they are ideologically manipulated to do so, but because they are the best words to use to describe their experience. White people generally have no need to do that.

Honestly it didn't even enter my mind that this kind of language is 'non-white' and that people of color use it for a specific purpose, probably because I've mostly heard it used by white liberals.  Given my personal experience with this type of language i can't really relate to the idea that we need it to help us understand BIPOC better. 

When I read these words, I pictured white people saying them. 

Do we know the racial makeup of the committee? 

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Names are here, second page of the report iirc:

image.thumb.png.19fae232cf428cfdc8aaea75449ef4ab.png

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Not sure this has been quoted yet, it is the last page of the BYU report:

Quote

The mission of Brigham Young University—founded, supported, and guided by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints—is to assist individuals in their quest for perfection and eternal life. That assistance should provide a period of intensive learning in a stimulating setting where a commitment to excellence is expected and the full realization of human potential is pursued.”87
To this end, the university seeks qualified students of various talents and backgrounds, including geographic, educational, cultural, ethnic, and racial, who relate together in such a manner that they are “no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God” (Ephesians 2:19). It is the university’s judgment that providing educational opportunities for a mix of students who share values based on the gospel of Jesus Christ and who come from a variety of backgrounds and experiences is an important educational asset to BYU.

https://race.byu.edu/00000177-d543-dfa9-a7ff-d5cfc1dc0000/race-equity-belonging-report-feb-25-2021

Pretty certain outside other BYUs, this is a pretty unique mission statement.  If this is truly the paradigm any polices are first examined through, implementation may vary from other universities that have a less long term vision. 

Edited by Calm
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4 minutes ago, Calm said:

Names are here, second page of the report iirc:

 

Thanks Cal!  I looked up a picture to go with each name and it looks like we have two white guys and the rest are people of color.  Not that it matters but after CV's post about POC and social justice phrases it made me wonder.

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2 minutes ago, Calm said:

Not sure this has been quoted yet, it is the last page of the BYU report:

https://race.byu.edu/00000177-d543-dfa9-a7ff-d5cfc1dc0000/race-equity-belonging-report-feb-25-2021

I can't give any more Rep points right now, but those paragraphs are extremely relevant to the idea that the BYU should care more about academic achievement than the racial makeup of the student body.

Clearly BYU's mission as a school is much more broad than we sometimes remember.

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I found it interesting the Chair’s background was in statistics.  I am thinking at least one other, the Sociology prof, would have a very good grounding in statistics...which is good because they don’t have to rely on others to interpret the research for them. 
 

Having two law professors is wise as well given the legal ramifications of possible changes...or lack of change. 
 

The others are specialists on the topic or work in the athletic department, which I assume based on experience 40 years ago and stereotyping, likely have a number of BIPOC students who have been sharing stories with them and would feel comfortable sharing more personal experiences, raising quality and quantity. 
 

Intelligent choices for the committee, imo. 

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17 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I can't give any more Rep points right now, but those paragraphs are extremely relevant to the idea that the BYU should care more about academic achievement than the racial makeup of the student body.

Clearly BYU's mission as a school is much more broad than we sometimes remember.

They jumped out at me. Wasn’t expecting that on the last page. Had been skimming through in case they had a picture of the committee.

”Of the household of God” is quite striking for me. It conveys both a sense of family and a sense of responsibility to their shared home...which for a time for students also the university should become.  Wouldn’t it be something beautiful if all students felt they were at home when they walked on BYU’s campus.

Edited by Calm
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28 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Honestly it didn't even enter my mind that this kind of language is 'non-white' and that people of color use it for a specific purpose, probably because I've mostly heard it used by white liberals.  Given my personal experience with this type of language i can't really relate to the idea that we need it to help us understand BIPOC better. 

When I read these words, I pictured white people saying them. 

Do we know the racial makeup of the committee? 

From their appearances and bios, it looks like there is one clearly white man: https://race.byu.edu/committee-members

Some appear to be bi/multiracial, and I can pick out Black, Latinx, American Indian, Maori/Pacific Islander, maybe some Asian influence, and maybe hard-to-tell like Elaine's date on a Seinfeld episode ("The Wizard").

I think the wording is not so much an identifier that the speaker is non-white, but as resonating and relatable to the non-white experience and ear.

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1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Honestly it didn't even enter my mind that this kind of language is 'non-white' and that people of color use it for a specific purpose, probably because I've mostly heard it used by white liberals.  Given my personal experience with this type of language i can't really relate to the idea that we need it to help us understand BIPOC better. 

When I read these words, I pictured white people saying them. 

Do we know the racial makeup of the committee? 

I’m not convinced the language is indicative of people of color so much as it is indicative of a “woke” ideology, an ideology that not all people of color share. 

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10 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’m not convinced the language is indicative of people of color so much as it is indicative of a “woke” ideology, an ideology that not all people of color share. 

I do think that for a lot of conservatives that is exactly what it is indicative of, so as far as BYU wants/needs to rally everyone to the cause and not just liberals, understanding the conservative bias against those types of phrases could be beneficial.

Speaking for myself, I don't know if I'm biased against the terminology because I'm technically a conservative or if it's other things.  I'm enough of a moderate that I often clash with conservative circles (including my husband).

I really do think that I don't like the phrases because I find them really confusing and bloated--like trying to read a legal contract and figure out what it says and what you are agreeing to.  It's all valid and accurate, but also so confusing and filled with jargon that it's practically useless as a guide for correct conduct in everyday situations.  

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