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Bombshell BYU announcement


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4 hours ago, CV75 said:

You are using "discrimination" as "unlawful discrimination"?

I am not.  I am using "discrimination" as "discrimination."  I am assuming that whatever policies BYU puts in place will be lawful.

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Which of the recommendations creates a point of unlawful discrimination?

I'm not sure any of them do.  That's for the Courts to determine.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited by smac97
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3 hours ago, Calm said:
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Well, we're speaking prospectively, right?  What may happen in the future if and when these policies are implemented?  Kinda hard to answer a CFR about something that has yet to happen.

But what we can do is look at schools that have already played around with race-based admissions policies.  Yale and Harvard, for example.  What do we see there?  Race-based discrimination of . . . yep, Whites, Asians and Jews.

The survey included Asians.  (I am not mentioning Jews because I am not sure how one would track Jews who are LDS.  If by name, then that includes me as my maiden surname was Jewish, my grandfather’s grandfather being German Jew).  

Again, I am speaking prospectively.  Other institutions of higher learning that have incorporated explicitly race-based considerations in their admissions processes have ended up discriminating against Whites, Asians and Jews.

3 hours ago, Calm said:

BYU is in a significantly different category than Yale and Harvard being a religious school.  

I'll go along with that.  And yet I'm not persuaded that this differentiation justifies race-based discrimination.

3 hours ago, Calm said:

It is also in a different category because the primary purpose of that religion and the university overseen by the regions leaders is not to produced academically advanced students to boost the university’s prestige and thus bring in more money for the university.

Again, still not seeing a justification.  

3 hours ago, Calm said:

I therefore think it is faulty reasoning to project on to BYU what policies have led to at other universities, especially policies that may or may not even get implemented at BYU.

I think it's fair to surmise that BYU will end up with the same sort of issues that have arisen in other universities with race-based admissions: de facto discrimination against Whites, Asians and Jews.

Thanks,

-Smac

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3 hours ago, Calm said:

After reading Bluedream’s very informative personal or up close description of how support or the lack of it actually plays out at BYU rather than depending on long distance speculation , do you see increasing the occurrences of such support for BIPOC actually creating racial injustice for white students?

Yes, I think we'll see similar forms of "racial injustice" as have been seen in other universities that adopt explicitly race-based admissions and other policies. 

The same goes for injustice as to Asian students.  And Jewish students (few though there may be).

Thanks,

-Smac

 

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3 hours ago, bluebell said:
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"Trying to make the playing field even" being code for "implementing all sorts of policies that on their face treat applicants, students, faculty, etc. differently based on their race?"

No, it's not code for that.  

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.  

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

None of that says or means that BYU is planning on discriminating against white students because of their race. 

Yes, it does.  Race-based programs will benefit applicants, students and faculty who belong to favored racial groupings (BIPOCs) and will disadvantage applicants, students and faculty who do not belong to those groupings (Whites, Asians, Jews).

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

You're kind of making stuff up and then getting mad about the made up stuff.  

I don't think so.

Thanks,

-Smac

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3 hours ago, The Nehor said:
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Asians are also usually losers in the race-based admissions games that are played in today's colleges and universities.  So are Jews.

Are you going to ridicule them as well?  Or is race-based ridicule okay as long as the targets of your venom are White?

No, because they are not the group with large numbers of people whining about how unfair it is.

It is also not race-based ridicule. It is ridicule of a set of people that whine a lot.

Real Oppression: ”Stop having law enforcement extrajudicially execute us!”

I think race-based discrimination is a real problem.

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Whining Spoiled Gits: “Calm down. If you can present your claims civilly and in a way that doesn’t inconvenience me in any way or make me feel bad at all then someday we will look into your grievances and possibly form a committee of some sort to stonewall you. Wait, what just happened? WHAT???? There is a 1% chance that my kid won’t get accepted into a specific college because of attempts to redress entrenched racism?!?!?! WHY IS LIFE SO UNFAIR?!?!?!!!?!?!?!”

More ridicule.  That's seems to be all you've god.  

This is you doing "present your claims civilly"?

Thanks,

-Smac

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8 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Yes, I think we'll see similar forms of "racial injustice" as have been seen in other universities that adopt explicitly race-based admissions and other policies. 

The same goes for injustice as to Asian students.  And Jewish students (few though there may be).

Thanks,

-Smac

 

That has nothing to do with what Bluedreams said. 

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4 hours ago, CV75 said:
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The entire proposal is predicated on BYU implementing policies focusing on the preferential treatment of applicants, students, faculty, etc. based on race.  On slicing and dicing the opportunities and resources available to BYU-affiliated persons based on the skin color of those persons.

I think discrimination based on race is unjust.  Race-based discrimination is the raison d'etre of the policy proposals.  

I'm not seeing any specifics here on "a solution to racial injustice over here that involves creating another racial injustice over there."

I am.  I think it will happen.  It's happened at other schools who have adopted explicitly race-based policies.  I don't think BYU will be able to avoid the problems inherent in discriminating based on race.

4 hours ago, CV75 said:

I was expecting an example of one of the recommendations that meets that criterion.

I provided several examples.  You disagree.  I'm okay with that.

4 hours ago, CV75 said:

The term "racial injustice" is not used in the article or the recommendations,

Why would it?  Harvard and Yale wouldn't advertise their race-based discrimination against Asians, Whites and Jews as "racial injustice," either.

Thanks,

-Smac

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21 minutes ago, Calm said:

That has nothing to do with what Bluedreams said. 

I was not responding to Bluedreams.  I was responding to your question.  I thought Bluedreams was responding to Rongo, not me.  But I'll comment on a few points:

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For the record I definitely take issue with your summations. Not for them being non-PC. But for them being at best incorrect and at worst knee jerk emotional/reactionary to needed changes to BYU to help meet not only the needs of minority students but to also make a better education experience for all its students to prepare them for life post college in an ever diversifying world.

If summations are "incorrect," then demonstrate it.  If the summations are "knee jerk emotiona/reactionary," demonstrate that, too.  And if it is, I think we we need to give each other room to sort out are perspectives on these things. 

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Also Asians wouldn’t automatically be dinged at BYU. They’re definitely not over represented in their population as 4% of the student body. 

But they're not BIPOC.  And I think they likely will be "dinged" under race-based policies, as has happened at other universities.  And Whites will "be dinged."  

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Doing this will not suddenly displace a ton of white kids and reduce their chances to get in. This isn’t a zero-sum game.

So race-based displacement is okay as long as it doesn't involve "a ton?"  

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No one is guaranteed a spot at BYU...or any college.

Nobody is looking for a guarantee.  I think the concern is that skin color is used to advantage some applicants and disadvantage others.

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They’ll like still get a good education somewhere as long as they applied to other schools too.

Which doesn't ameliorate the concern about race being a factor in the admissions process at BYU.

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The changes made will not ensure any minority has an easier time getting in compared to a white counterpart.

Taking race into account will not affect one's chances of admission to BYU?  How do you figure?  

I hope these comments/questions are taken in the spirit in which they are intended, and not in the spirit some want to impute onto me.  I dislike racism and discrimination.  A lot.  I am opposed to these things.

Thanks,

-Smac

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16 minutes ago, juliann said:

Nope. Nothing.
 

This has to be the most cringe worthy  thread ever produced on MDDB. 

Repeated efforts to shame into silence viewpoints with which you disagree.

No argument.  No reasoning.  No data.  Just shaming.  

Is it any wonder why "discussions" about race are difficult?  

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited by smac97
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1 minute ago, Calm said:

You keep making this claim contrary to fact. 

I don't think so.  See, e.g., here:

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I won’t be using BIPOC anymore. Not doing Asian erasure. I’ve coined BILAM: Black, indigenous, latinx, Asian, minorities. I think it’s better. Asians have a long history in the US and it needs to be learned about and understood.

I have repeatedly pointed to race-based admissions policies in universities resulting in de facto discrimination against Asians and Jews.  And Whites.  

Thanks,

-Smac

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1 hour ago, bluebell said:

That they refer to "all students" and are not saying that BYU plans on discriminating against white students.

And yet, as schools that adopt race-based admissions policies, we see discrimination against White students.  And Asians.  And Jews.

Whether de facto or de jure, the result seems to end up there.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited by smac97
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30 minutes ago, smac97 said:

don't think so.  See, e.g., here:

That is not at BYU. Why do you keep using stuff happening elsewhere as evidence it is happening at BYU. 
 

What evidence we have of BYU shows they assume East Asians heritage is included in BIPOC.  See survey. 
 

race-equity-belonging-report-feb-25-2021

https://race.byu.edu/00000177-d543-dfa9-a7ff-d5cfc1dc0000/race-equity-belonging-report-feb-25-2021

Edited by Calm
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a. BYU is disproportionately failing to retain BIPOC students. The overall six-year graduation rate for nearly all BIPOC students identifying as a single race at BYU is significantly lower than mul- tiracial and White students (Native American: 41%; Black: 58%; Hispanic/Latino: 66%; Pacific Islander: 68%; Asian: 77%; two or more races: 78%; White: 79%).

“Than” divided the BIPOC from multiracial and white category. Since Asian is listed prior to the multiracial percentage in list, it is pretty clear Asian is included in the definition of BIPOC by BYU, the exception that leads to it being “nearly all” groups of BIPOC rather than “all”.

Edited by Calm
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13 minutes ago, Calm said:

That is not at BYU. Why do you keep using stuff happening elsewhere as evidence it is happening at BYU. 

Not "is happening."  I am prognosticating that it will happen.  Universities that adopt explicitly race-based admissions policies end up with de facto discrimination against Whites, Asians and Jews.

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What evidence we have of BYU shows they assume East Asians heritage is included in BIPOC.  See survey. 
 

race-equity-belonging-report-feb-25-2021

https://race.byu.edu/00000177-d543-dfa9-a7ff-d5cfc1dc0000/race-equity-belonging-report-feb-25-2021

And yet when push comes to shove, Asians seeking admissions to other schools with race-based admissions policies face discrimination.  Same with Jews.

And same with Whites.  I think it's strange that we seem to be pretty okay with that.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited by smac97
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8 minutes ago, smac97 said:

am prognosticating that it will happen. 

Without justification given the fact that BYU is quite different in many ways than the schools you are using as a reference. 
 

You are also ignoring what has and is happening at BYU described by someone who has actual experience in favor of your speculation what you apparently see as inevitable...because it happened elsewhere. 
 

So do you believe same sex marriages will be performed in our temples when the Church talks about being more welcoming, etc?  After all, we can point out where it is happening in plenty of other places, so it must be inevitable. 
 

I am bewildered why you think this is valid analysis. 

Edited by Calm
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This merits some attention:

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There is a pretty solid reason for colleges not to discriminate on the basis of race: It’s called the 1964 Civil Rights Act, which could hardly be more clear: “No person in the United States shall, on the ground of race, color, or national origin, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance.” Yale and Harvard and the other fancy colleges could discriminate as much as they want, if they stopped accepting federal funding. They want it both ways.

The language of the Civil Rights Act is rarely quoted in the media today because it is race-neutral and today’s liberals are race-obsessed. If blacks have an equal shot at success, but few of them pass a given test, this is unsatisfactory. Instead, liberals want quotas to assure blacks are present in every institution. The way the liberal imagination has swiveled from fairness toward all to heavy tipping of the scales in favor of blacks is evident in, for instance, the matter of screens at classical-music auditions. When two black musicians complained that the New York Philharmonic shut them out on the basis of race in 1969, the classical-music world began using blind auditions, with screens hiding the musician from the judge. The orchestras filled up not with blacks but with Asians. The number of women accepted into orchestras skyrocketed, too. But a 2014 survey found only 1.4 percent of classical musicians were black.

“The status quo is not working,” declares Anthony Tommasini, the dean of classical-music criticism, in the Times. So the Times is leading calls to get rid of the screens and use race and gender quotas, which is what “committing to a diverse workforce” means. One of America’s last remaining pure meritocracies is about to crumble. (The sturdiest meritocracy is professional sports, where no one cares about anything but the numbers you put on the scoreboard, and blacks are well-represented.)

Racial preferences for some, hence racial discrimination against others, will not end at places such as Yale and Harvard until the Supreme Court stops pretending the Civil Rights Act means the opposite of what it clearly states. Will that ever happen? I’m not holding my breath. John Roberts’ judicial philosophy appears to be, “Don’t do anything that will make liberals angry,” and he knows this would make them blow their stack like Mount Vesuvius.

Here:

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The United States Department of Justice alleged Yale University discriminates against Asian American and white applicants, a finding experts say goes hand in hand with simultaneous challenges to Harvard’s race-conscious admissions process.

The Justice Department’s Thursday press release alleged that Yale weights race unfairly in its admissions process and has actively used race in a way that has disadvantaged Asian American and white applicants from 2000 to 2017.

Here:

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Harvard once capped the number of Jews. Is it doing the same thing to Asian Americans now?

BY BEN SALES OCTOBER 17, 2018 12:47 PM

 In 1922, Harvard University President Abbott Lawrence Lowell had a problem: His school had too many Jews. At least that’s what he thought.

As the country’s Jewish population ballooned in the early 20th century, the Jewish proportion of Harvard students increased exponentially, too. In 1900, just 7 percent of the Ivy League school’s students were Jewish. By 1922, the figure was 21.5 percent.

Lowell felt that some were of deficient character. And even if they weren’t, he feared they would drive away potential White Anglo-Saxon Protestant students who would go on to be America’s political and economic elite — as well as future donors to schools like Harvard.
...
Lowell eventually succeeded in changing the admissions standards at his Boston-area university to limit the number of Jews. According to Karabel, instead of admitting students solely based on academic achievement, the school began judging their surnames and photographs to determine if they were Jewish. It began classifying students as “J1,” “J2” or “J3” — conclusively Jewish, probably Jewish or maybe Jewish, respectively. It evaluated their “character” as well — a new standard that allowed Harvard to cap the proportion of Jewish students at 15 percent. The quota lasted until the 1960s.

Except that some people say it’s still happening — only this time the target is Asian Americans.

Here:

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Back in the USSR, Ilya Shapiro’s parents had to fight anti-Semitism to be admitted into universities that discriminated against Jews. Fast forward several decades and legal activist Shapiro has taken on a similar cause in the United States, campaigning to abolish the use of race in the admissions process at Harvard University.

The admissions policy is the subject of a court case scheduled to be argued in a Federal District Court in Boston on October 15 — only this time, the alleged discrimination is against Asians, not Jews.

In recent months Shapiro, a senior fellow in constitutional studies at the Cato Institute in Washington, DC, has actively campaigned for the right of Asian-American applicants to be treated equally during the admissions process at Harvard.

He has written articles and was interviewed on America’s National Public Radio about how Harvard University discriminates against Asian-American applicants based on subjective criteria like “positive personality,” “likability,” “courage,” and “kindness.”

“It’s not that Asian students are [only] good at taking tests, and that they’re one-dimensional applicants, just academic. No. The information that’s coming out is showing that even if you take community service, leadership, essays and recommendations — Asian-Americans have done very well in those areas, too. But if you compare them to other ethnic groups, they are still let in at a much lesser rate,” Shapiro told The Times of Israel.

“What Harvard is doing is, they want a mix, they want a balance — and because so many Asian-American applicants are very qualified, they seem to be taking steps to restrict them in certain ways,” he said.

Here:

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A popular college ditty during the 1910s began:

Oh, Harvard’s run by millionaires,

And Yale is run by booze,

Cornell is run by farmers’ sons,

 

Columbia’s run by Jews.

If you thought that sort of bigotry at elite universities was a thing of the past, you might want to reconsider in light of a federal district court ruling last week on Harvard’s admissions policies. It seems the only thing that’s changed over the past century is the group being targeted for exclusion.

In 1914 about 40% of Columbia’s students were Jewish. By 1918 effective quotas had reduced their numbers to 22%. In the 1920s Harvard and Yale would follow Columbia’s lead. Harvard’s freshman class of 1925 was nearly 30% Jewish. The next year it fell to 15% and remained thereabouts for the next two decades.

Today’s concern is the overrepresentation of Asian students on elite campuses and the sneaky ways that colleges go about capping their numbers. In 2014 Students for Fair Admissions, a nonprofit, sued Harvard, alleging that the school had passed over Asians for admission because of their race. The plaintiffs presented data showing that Asian applicants needed SAT scores that were about 140 points higher than their white peers to be accepted. And they argued that the percentage of Asians admitted to Harvard was suspiciously similar year after year despite dramatic increases in the number of Asian applicants and the size of America’s Asian population.

Asian enrollment at Harvard was 19% in 1992, 18% in 2013, and in the interim always remained roughly between 15% and 20%. By contrast, Asian enrollment at another highly selective school, the California Institute of Technology, grew steadily from 25% to 43% over the same two-decade period. The plaintiffs argued that the disparity in Asian enrollment at the two institutions reflected the fact that Harvard’s admissions process is race-conscious while Caltech’s is race-blind.

Here:

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In recent years, many studies have uncovered overwhelming evidence that Ivy Leagues Universities and other selective schools have been engaged in systematic and continuous discrimination against Asian-Americans in the college admissions process:

Golden (2007)— The discrimination against Asian-Americans by Harvard and other elite universities was so severe that Golden dedicated a special chapter “The New Jews” to compare it to the discrimination suffered by Jewish Americans in the 1920’s and 1930’s. He stated that “most elite universities have maintained a triple standard in college admissions, setting the bar highest for Asians, next for whites and lowest for blacks and Hispanics.” He also provided various qualitative examples as to how Harvard and other elite schools use various stereotypes to discriminate against Asian-American applicants.

Espenshade & Radford (2009)—Asian-Americans have the lowest acceptance rate for each SAT test score bracket, having to score on average approximately 140 point higher than a White student, 270 points higher than a Hispanic student and 450 points higher than a Black student on the SAT.

Unz (2012)—The share of Asians at Harvard peaked at over 20% in 1993, then immediately declined and thereafter remained roughly constant at a level 3–5 percentage points lower, despite the fact that Asian-American population has more than doubled since 1993 as has the number of highly qualified Asian-American applicants. “The relative enrollment of Asians at Harvard was plummeting, dropping by over half during the last twenty years, with a range of similar declines also occurring at Yale, Cornell, and most other Ivy League universities.”

Sander (2014)— “No other racial or ethnic group at these three of the most selective Ivy League schools is as underrepresented relative to its application numbers as are Asian- Americans.”

The discriminatory practices by Harvard and other Ivy League universities have caused tremendous harm to students in the Asian-American community: stress/mental health issues, pressure to study more as the bar is raised higher; lack of trust in American institutions; self-identification crises; and fortification of racial barriers. For each and every Asian-American college applicant, such practices engender a feeling that, being Asian-American, he or she is somehow less American than his or her peers of other racial backgrounds, and he or she does not, and will not, ever have full citizenship as an American.

In its ugliest essence, such practices are remindful of the past discriminations against and exclusions of Asian-Americans, including, among others, The Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882; discrimination against Asian-American businesses such as that discriminating against Chinese-American laundries that was struck down by the United States Supreme Court in Yick Wo v Hopkins (1882); the segregation of Asian-American schoolchildren in San Francisco’s schools in the early twentieth century, a practice that was ended only when President Theodore Roosevelt intervened at the insistence of the Japanese government; and the internment of Japanese-Americans during World War II. Shockingly, America’s elite universities, even today, are still violating the civil rights of Asian-American applicants on a continuous and systematic basis, and have been able to carry out their patently unconstitutional activities with little or no governmental interventions. It is imperative for the federal government to intervene in a forceful manner to protect the constitutional rights of Asian-American applicants from continued infringement by Harvard and other universities.

Here:

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Why is Harvard discriminating against Asian Americans? 'Diversity' is no excuse for racial bias.

We've decided that doling out opportunity on the basis of race is wrong. Even when it changes an institution's 'character.' Even when Harvard does it.

Glenn Reynolds | Opinion columnist
 

I wrote four years ago that it looked as if Asian applicants to Harvard were getting the "Jewish treatment" — that is, being subjected to quotas, and rated down on “soft” qualifications, so as to keep their numbers lower than their objective qualifications would warrant. This is what Ivy League schools did to Jewish applicants for much of the 20th century, because Jewish applicants were seen as boring grinds who studied too hard, and whose parents weren’t rich enough or connected enough to contribute to the schools’ flourishing.

The Ivy League eventually ended its quotas for Jews, suspiciously at about the time that there were enough rich and well-connected Jews to benefit the Ivy League. But now it’s doing the same thing to Asians.
...
One of the things that highly selective schools like Harvard like to say is that their admission policy is “holistic,” based on personal characteristics that go beyond high school grades or SAT scores. This goes back to the early days of discrimination against Jews, when things such as “leadership” or “well-roundedness” were used to favor rich WASP applicants over Jews who just studied hard.  And, often, there was a thumb on the scale.

Now that’s happening to Asians, as it has come out that Harvard consistently scored Asian applicants lower on the subjective "personal rating." These traits included “positive personality,” likability, courage, kindness and being “widely respected,” according to an analysis of six years of admission data filed Friday in federal court in Boston by Students for Fair Admissions, a group representing Asian-American students in a lawsuit against the university.

The group said its expert found that Asian-American applicants are "significantly stronger than all other racial groups in academic performance.They also perform very well in non-academic categories and have higher extracurricular scores than any other racial group." Their personal ratings were relatively low, especially among admissions officers who hadn't met them. Alumni interviewers who had met these prospective students gave them top personal ratings.

The memo filed with the court said Harvard's own internal investigation in 2013 concluded that its admissions system was biased against Asian Americans. But instead of addressing the problem, "Harvard killed the investigation and buried the reports." 

Thanks,

-Smac

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15 minutes ago, Calm said:
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am prognosticating that it will happen. 

Without justification given the fact that BYU is quite different in many ways than the schools you are using as a reference. 

I dunno.  "Yes, we'll use race-based admissions policies, but we'll do it right, not like those dolts at Harvard and Yale" doesn't fill me with confidence.  

Again, I am prognosticating de facto discrimination.

15 minutes ago, Calm said:

You are also ignoring what has and is happening at BYU described by someone who has actual experience in favor of your speculation what you apparently see as inevitable...because it happened elsewhere. 

I am not ignoring.

And they who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.  I think it's hubristic to think that BYU can enact race-based policies but not end up with de facto discrimination against Whites, Asians and Jews.

15 minutes ago, Calm said:

So do you believe same sex marriages will be performed in our temples when the Church talks about being more welcoming, etc?  

No.

15 minutes ago, Calm said:

After all, we can point out where it is happening in plenty of other places, so it must be inevitable. 

I'm not sure I'm saying "inevitable."  Pretty darn likely, tho.

15 minutes ago, Calm said:

I am bewildered why you think this is valid analysis. 

Ah, well.

Thanks,

-Smac

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38 minutes ago, smac97 said:

And they who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. 

And that you think this comment strengthens your position when you ignore actual history presented by someone who has lived it is one of the bewildering aspects. 

Edited by Calm
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2 hours ago, smac97 said:

I think race-based discrimination is a real problem.

More ridicule.  That's seems to be all you've god.  

This is you doing "present your claims civilly"?

Thanks,

-Smac

Did you even read my post? “Present your claims civilly” was mocking white people talking condescendingly. I wasn’t claiming to be civil but was mocking people who endlessly call for civility over justice.

And yes, ridicule is a good approach. We actually need more of it.

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

Repeated efforts to shame into silence viewpoints with which you disagree.

No argument.  No reasoning.  No data.  Just shaming.  

Is it any wonder why "discussions" about race are difficult?  

Thanks,

-Smac

Shaming is also a good approach. We need more of that too.

I admit your tack into hand-wringing about the poor Asians and Jews who are supposedly going to lose out was a nice twist but it is also pretty ridiculous.

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