Is there free agency in Mormonism?

[Stargazer]

8 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

To me what he's saying is your not free to go back and live a life free physically and mentally anymore without a guilty conscience.

Were we ever free to do that? I doubt it. The Light of Christ is given to everyone entering mortality, and except for the very few true sociopaths or psychopaths, I believe we all have a basic instinct as to right and wrong.

8 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Like I said, I know plenty of people who can live that way, they sleep like a baby at night after leaving the bar. Me on the other hand, I cant even enter the bar without feeling a since of doom, pure dread, a feeling of letting everyone who loves me down. The covenant I made allowed me to have an eternal compass (holy ghost) that most dont have. Again, physically I could walk into the door of that bar, but mentally I'm not free to do that like my buddies are. 

You have a point; I, too, find it difficult to enter that door. But I can still do it.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said:

never said you had to be perfect.

I am not saying it is impossible because of perfection. It is impossible because he had and has talents we don’t have. 
 

I can represent God by being the kind of person he wants me to be. I can’t represent God by being the kind of person he was or is. 
 

I can not do exactly what God did because I am not a man nor do I have the priesthood in such a way nor has God given me the ability to heal others or teach them in the same way he did. 
 

God has given me other talents, perhaps ones he never had much use for in his mortality given the needs of his time. It would be wrong imo to refuse to use the gifts he has given me simply because he didn’t use such in his mission. 

[AtlanticMike]

40 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Were we ever free to do that? I doubt it. The Light of Christ is given to everyone entering mortality, and except for the very few true sociopaths or psychopaths, I believe we all have a basic instinct as to right and wrong.

You have a point; I, too, find it difficult to enter that door. But I can still do it.

My point is your never free to go back to a life, free of knowing what God expects of you. Once you know the law, Gods law, you cant unknow it. My point with explaining  walking into the bar is, my friends dont know the law of God, so in a sense they have a freedom I dont anymore, a freedom of conscience. If they never choose to know Gods law, their freedom ends here on earth. Since we chose to live under Gods covenant while here on earth, he has given us the ability to live free forever. 

Edited February 13, 2021 by AtlanticMike

[AtlanticMike]

18 minutes ago, Calm said:

I am not saying it is impossible because of perfection. It is impossible because he had and has talents we don’t have. 
 

I can represent God by being the kind of person he wants me to be. I can’t represent God by being the kind of person he was or is. 
 

I can not do exactly what God did because I am not a man nor do I have the priesthood in such a way nor has God given me the ability to heal others or teach them in the same way he did. 
 

God has given me other talents, perhaps ones he never had much use for in his mortality given the needs of his time. It would be wrong imo to refuse to use the gifts he has given me simply because he didn’t use such in his mission. 

Ok, well, do what you think Heavenly Mother would do, to me it's the same thing, I know I've only been on here a couple months, but I probably talk about her more than anyone else on here, I even see her when I pray. The God i know wouldn't care if you want to represent Heavenly Mother, I think I've proven that's what I believe if you read my post about her.

[teddyaware]

2 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

I'm really starting to think you dont like me, oh well. Did you even watch the video, he's giving the people in the audience an unvarnished version of what happens to Gods covenant people if they sin. Your looking at it completely wrong. Let me explain the way I see it, and I'm going to do it in a very colorful way so hopefully you get the point he's trying to make.

    There are many men that work for me that have the ability to walk into a titty bar and sit down, stuff dollars into a beautiful women's thong, the women will rub her hair all over them, getting glitter on the guys faces, their clothes, and the guys absolutely love it. When the guys leave and go home there's nothing inside them telling what they did was wrong, again there's nothing INSIDE of them that SCREAMS, what the hell did you just do!! They live a life free to do whatever they want physically and consciously. 

       Now you teddyaware, you have complete freedom to physically  walk into your local titty bar and sit down and get as glittery as you want, you even have the ability to throw a $20 on the stage and become that girls best friend for as long as you want, just keep throwing $20s she'll make you priority #1.

      But even though you're physically free to do what you want, mentally, consciously, your not because you made a covenant with God and have CHOSEN a life of representing him, you will have a very very heavy weight upon your soul until you repent of going into that bar and getting all glittery. You will be in a mental bondage until you repent, God wont allow you to be FREE of your guilt until you repent. Everything we do is always tied back to the atonement. So when Elder Bednar is telling the audience your not FREE to NOT pay your tithing, he's not meaning physically, he's talking spiritually and mentally. 

   Now go back to my opening statement and see if it makes more sense to you, or watch the video again, I think it might make more sense to you. hopefully this helped.

 

Ps. Tell me, do you think you have the freedom to sin without having a guilty conscience? 

Sounds like you have a lot of experience with titty bars. I had to stop reading because I was getting too excited.

[AtlanticMike]

Here's another church video that explains "free agency". Watch from 43:45 to 45:00

 

https://youtu.be/4iXDXRGPX2o

[Kenngo1969]

3 hours ago, teddyaware said:

My intent was to reinforce your much appreciated agreement with the scriptures.

Ah, I see.  Well, I apologize for any misunderstanding, Sir.  Carry on!

[AtlanticMike]

15 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Sounds like you have a lot of experience with titty bars. I had to stop reading because I was getting too excited.

Nope, actually I dont, I've never been to one, I've actually never drank or smoked either, but I employ alot of guys who go all the time. I actually have the pleasure of talking to strippers all the time. When ever my guys finish a roof before the time we originally thought, or they help me not go over budget, I'll treat them and their families to a meal. Sometimes its at my house, sometimes it at a restaurant. I have 1 guy who dates a stripper and another guy who is married to one right now.

So my wife and I are very familiar with the life of women who dance for a living. They're some of the nicest people you could ever meet. 

   There have many a day I've crawled up a roof and been able to tell were the guys went to lunch, all I have to do is look for the glitter 🤣🤣 . Here's the difference between you and me teddy, there's a good chance your mindset would never let you become friends with a stripper, me on the other hand. I follow the life of jesus as my compass. I personally believe his table was open to anyone who was willing to listen, there's multiple biblical stories that prove my point. 

[AtlanticMike]

You know what TEDDYAWARE, since you've been judging me, especially in my other thread about me saying I feel 80% mormon, you were harsh. I'm not going  to be that harsh back but I will dedicate this song to you😁

https://youtu.be/

 

[teddyaware]

46 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Ah, I see.  Well, I apologize for any misunderstanding, Sir.  Carry on!

I do understand why you would have made the assumption, though. I do realize that while in my everyday life I’m often a jovial jokester, on this board I come off as a blunt and acerbic hardliner. The reality of this particular situation is that I merely chose your post as a convenient place to throw my two cents into the thread.

Edited February 13, 2021 by teddyaware

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said:

My point is your never free to go back to a life, free of knowing what God expects of you. Once you know the law, Gods law, you cant unknow it. My point with explaining  walking into the bar is, my friends dont know the law of God, so in a sense they have a freedom I dont anymore, a freedom of conscience. If they never choose to know Gods law, their freedom ends here on earth. Since we chose to live under Gods covenant while here on earth, he has given us the ability to live free forever. 

 

I guess I can't argue with that.

In the end, I'd rather be God's servant than anything else. I'm just not very good at it, yet.

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

I understand what your saying here Robert, but I'm not talkin about in heaven. I'm talking about entering into a covenant with God here on earth. There are plenty of men and women on earth who can sin without having a guilty conscience afterwards because they dont know better. Also they haven't allowed the holy ghost into their soul as a guide. We on the other hand have chosen to accept the terms of the agreement in the covenant, and if we hold up our end, we will be free here on earth and also in eternity. 

I made it clear that free agency applies at all times and in all places, not just heaven.  We always make choices, covenant or no covenant.  Paul says that those who have not the Law are a law unto themselves, meaning that they will be judged by the rules of their own culture.  Same applies to choices made in the hereafter.  Free agency is a permanent fixture of our existence.  It doesn't go away just because someone entered into a covenant.  Obeying the features of that covenant is also a matter of free choice, and it always will be.  Once one reaches the age of accountability, the consequences can be grave, although God provided an infinite Atonement to get us out of the rabbit holes we dive into.  Repentance is also a free choice, and grace is the cherry on top.  You just haven't quite thought this principle through to its conclusion.  Don't forget the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  Don't forget that grace is free.

2 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

     Through the covenant that starts at our baptism God is offering complete freedom on earth and in heaven. Once entering the covenant, your are never free to go back and live your life without it. That's what Elder Bednar is saying. You have moved beyond that part of your life.     

The only time that applies is when someone has such great light and knowledge that they have gone beyond the pale.  Scripture says that it would have been better for them never to have known the truth, by the power of the Holy Spirit.  For someone like Lucifer, this means that he cannot go back.  But that is a very rare state.  Would you care to tell us who that description fits?  Does it apply to Judas?  Any other names you'd care to throw out there?

[Ginger Snaps]

Agency means we are free to make choices, not that we are free to escape consequences. When we make covenants, we agree to certain conditions and limits on our behavior—that is we make an agreement to use our agency in a certain way. We are still able to choose behavior contrary to those agreements, but we do not have a choice about what consequences result from that choice.  
 

Don’t conflate freedom of choice with freedom from consequences. 

Edited February 13, 2021 by Ginger Snaps

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said:

Here's another church video that explains "free agency". Watch from 43:45 to 45:00

 

https://youtu.be/4iXDXRGPX2o

When Elder Bednar said there is no such thing as "free agency", but moral agency. It reminded me of when he said there are no homosexuals in the church. I guess it's how we all look at something, and he makes us think outside of the box, or outside of the way we were originally taught to think. But he didn't convince me of there being no homosexuals in the church, even though what he's trying to say is that there are no labels like that in the church, I'm thinking. So I guess when he says we go line upon line, we do change how we believe in the church. 

[InCognitus]

On 2/12/2021 at 10:41 AM, AtlanticMike said:

https://youtu.be/P96APKw1EfQ

 

When you can find the time, please watch this church video from 54:00 to 102:30, I could be wrong, but would love to learn more about agency if you guys could help me out. Again do we have free agency to do what we want?

You edited your opening post this morning to include this video (and one other), but to make it easier for others, here's a transcript of what Elder Bednar is saying in the first video. 

This transcript is for anyone who wants to read what Elder Bednar said without taking the time to watch the video.

This is in the context of the question that was asked:  "How can I achieve both temporal and spiritual self reliance without focusing primarily on temporal self reliance?" Elder José A. Teixeira responded to the question, and then Elder Bednar followed with these remarks:

Quote

I want to make two observations.  Number one, I don’t like the term “self reliance”.  We should never rely on self.  First and foremost we should recognize our dependence upon God and our reliance upon him.  That is a very good kind of dependence.   Now what self reliance means is that we look “here” [pointing to himself], first, to solve our problems. 

Now I hope what I’m about to say will seem simple to you.  There are basic principios [principles] and doctrinas [doctrines] that help us understand this concept of self reliance.  We are children of God.  Through the Savior's atonement we are blessed with moral agency.  The principle of moral agency is the least understood of all gospel principles.  It is taught incorrectly often, and it leaves people to behave in ways that are not appropriate.  As I listen to members of the church all over the world, this is how they define agency:  It is the ability to choose, and I can do what I want.  That's false!   Why do we have agency?  Go find in the Pearl of Great Price, in the book of Moses *, God's explanation for why we have agency.  It is to choose him, not to choose what we want, but to choose God and to love and serve each other. 

Now, buckle up.  Are you buckled up?  Okay, here we go.  When you and I enter the baptismal covenants, there are three conditions of the covenant:  (1) A willingness to take upon ourselves the name of Christ, (2) a commitment to always remember him, and (3) a commitment to keep the commandments.  We learn about those elements of the covenant and we exercise our agency to accept those conditions of the covenant.  We then are promised that if we honor the covenant we may always have God's spirit to be with us.  Okay.  As we pledge our willingness to take upon ourselves the name of Christ, that begins in the waters of baptism.  It begins!  We do not wholly and totally take upon ourselves the name of Christ in the waters of baptism.  We begin!  Where do we more fully take upon ourselves the name of Christ?  En el templo (in the temple).  There is a pathway from the baptismal font to the templo (temple).  And there is increasing blessings by the power of the Holy Ghost that come into our lives.  As we begin to have the name of Christ come upon us, through ordinances and covenants, we have a new family name:  Christian.  And with that name we are to represent him at all times and in all places and in all things. 

Now this is why you need to be buckled up.  When we enter into that covenant and begin to have the name of Christ come upon us, our agency is enlarged.  It’s no longer individual agency.  It is enlarged to become representative agency.  And representing Christ and his name at all times in all places and in all things, becomes more important than what we want.  The reason we need to always remember him is so we can effectively represent him.  The reason we need the companionship of the Holy Ghost, yes, that blesses us, but we need that companionship of the third member of the Godhead, so we can represent him.  We have already pledged that we will keep the commandments.  Have you heard someone say, a member of the church, who has entered into the baptismal covenant, “I have my agency; I can do what I want”.  Have you ever heard that?  Do you know what the answer is?  No you can’t!  You don’t understand agency.  You don’t have agency to do whatever you want.  We have the hymn Choose the Right, don’t we?  In Español?  [Affirmative response] The hymn is called Choose the Right, not “Choose What You Want”. 

So from tonight on, don’t ever use a misunderstood concept of agency to justify sin.  You can’t just choose what you want.  And when you begin to understand that prencipio (principle), then you are on the road to becoming spiritually self reliant, dependent upon God and devoted to representing him all the time everywhere. 

Now, I want to say this in terms that I hope won’t be scary, but they’re true.  If after having entered into the covenant we don’t abide by the conditions of the covenant, so for example, if you and I don’t pay our tithing, do we have the option not to pay our tithing?  Nope.  It’s breaking a covenant.  It is not the exercise of agency anymore.  Because what happened to our individual agency?  It was enlarged.  Now it’s more important to represent him.  Is this making sense? 

If some night you don’t want to go to sleep, read the scriptures and learn about what happens to covenant breakers.  I guarantee you; you will not go to sleep.  Now, I don’t want to scare you.  But I want you to understand this is serious. 

Agency is the center point of our mortal experience.  With that agency we are agents to act.  That’s self reliance.  We are not objects to be acted upon.  That is the absence of self reliance.  Now, go find more in the scriptures.  That’s just the beginning.  But if you come to understand what agency is, made possible through the Savior’s atonement, you will be taking steps in the direction of becoming spiritually and temporally self reliant. 

*  I presume the Moses reference he mentions above is Moses 7:32–33: 

32 The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency;  33 And unto thy brethren have I said, and also given commandment, that they should love one another, and that they should choose me, their Father; but behold, they are without affection, and they hate their own blood (Moses 7:32-33)

Edited February 13, 2021 by InCognitus

[AtlanticMike]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I made it clear that free agency applies at all times and in all places, not just heaven.  We always make choices, covenant or no covenant.  Paul says that those who have not the Law are a law unto themselves, meaning that they will be judged by the rules of their own culture.  Same applies to choices made in the hereafter.  Free agency is a permanent fixture of our existence.  It doesn't go away just because someone entered into a covenant.  Obeying the features of that covenant is also a matter of free choice, and it always will be.  Once one reaches the age of accountability, the consequences can be grave, although God provided an infinite Atonement to get us out of the rabbit holes we dive into.  Repentance is also a free choice, and grace is the cherry on top.  You just haven't quite thought this principle through to its conclusion.  Don't forget the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  Don't forget that grace is free.

The only time that applies is when someone has such great light and knowledge that they have gone beyond the pale.  Scripture says that it would have been better for them never to have known the truth, by the power of the Holy Spirit.  For someone like Lucifer, this means that he cannot go back.  But that is a very rare state.  Would you care to tell us who that description fits?  Does it apply to Judas?  Any other names you'd care to throw out there?

At the 57:56 mark of the first video I have provided in my first post of this thread, here's what he says. ""Now this is why you need to be buckled up, when we enter into that covenant, and begin to have the name of christ come upon us, our agency is enlarged, its NO LONGER INDIVIDUAL AGENCY, it's enlarged to become REPRESENTATIVE AGENCY, and representing christ in his name in all times becomes more important than what we want. ""

    To me, this means all of Gods children are born with individual agency but once we gain further light and knowledge of Heavenly Fathers plan (representative agency) we are not free to go back to the way our lives were. That would defeat the purpose of the covenant. You cant unknow what you know is what he is saying. 

    For example, let's say next week  we find a couple groups of people  living somewhere and they've never seen anyone from outside their handful of groups. They smoke, the ferment their own wine, they dont get married because they have found that sleeping with multiple partners is more beneficial to the groups genetically. Now, one of those individuals hikes into a major city and finds a whole new world. He's introduced to the missionaries and after a while he accepts the gospel, has a bishop interview and promises to keep the word of wisdom and the law of chastity. Then makes a covenant with God by entering the waters of baptism. 6 months later he doesn't like that he cant live his old life so he decides to go back and live with his group. As he tries to live his old life(individual agency) he has a tremendous amount of guilt because he's been given further light and knowledge of Gods plan, he can never be totally comfortable again because of it. He's been transformed through the atonement, he's never free from the knowledge he has gained. This is what Elder Bednar is saying to me, your mind is never free to sin again without knowing what your doing is against Gods will. 

[AtlanticMike]

22 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

You edited your opening post this morning to include this video (and one other), but to make it easier for others, here's a transcript of what Elder Bednar is saying in the first video.  This is in the context of the question that was asked:  "How can I achieve both temporal and spiritual self reliance without focusing primarily on temporal self reliance?" Elder José A. Teixeira responded to the question, and then Elder Bednar followed with these remarks:

*  I presume the Moses reference he mentions above is Moses 7:32–33: 

32 The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency;  33 And unto thy brethren have I said, and also given commandment, that they should love one another, and that they should choose me, their Father; but behold, they are without affection, and they hate their own blood (Moses 7:32-33)

Yes, I added the videos because I kept referring people to them. I thought it would make it easier. I personally like his message even though apparently I'm misunderstanding what agency is.

[Rain]

21 hours ago, Damien the Leper said:

Agreed. Also, the "free" part neglects the reality of consequence.

I always felt "free" was short for "freedom" like Ginger talks about above.  It surprised me years ago when I heard a general authority say we shouldn't use "free" because it isn't free.  Because of context that came with "free agency" it never occurred to me that people would think it means without cost.

Even now more than a decade later I have never heard anyone say it meaning without cost so the only time I think about it that way is in conversations where people say we shouldn't use the term.  "Agency", "free agency" and "moral agency" are all synonymous to me.

 

[katherine the great]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

even though what he's trying to say is that there are no labels like that in the church,

His reasoning is mystifying to me. Do I stop labeling myself as a grandma because I’m not only a grandma? Stop calling myself an anthropologist because that doesn’t define everything that I am? A sister, a mother, an LDS woman? It’s a weird argument.  

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

At the 57:56 mark of the first video I have provided in my first post of this thread, here's what he says. ""Now this is why you need to be buckled up, when we enter into that covenant, and begin to have the name of christ come upon us, our agency is enlarged, its NO LONGER INDIVIDUAL AGENCY, it's enlarged to become REPRESENTATIVE AGENCY, and representing christ in his name in all times becomes more important than what we want. ""

    To me, this means all of Gods children are born with individual agency but once we gain further light and knowledge of Heavenly Fathers plan (representative agency) we are not free to go back to the way our lives were. That would defeat the purpose of the covenant. You cant unknow what you know is what he is saying. 

    For example, let's say next week  we find a couple groups of people  living somewhere and they've never seen anyone from outside their handful of groups. They smoke, the ferment their own wine, they dont get married because they have found that sleeping with multiple partners is more beneficial to the groups genetically. Now, one of those individuals hikes into a major city and finds a whole new world. He's introduced to the missionaries and after a while he accepts the gospel, has a bishop interview and promises to keep the word of wisdom and the law of chastity. Then makes a covenant with God by entering the waters of baptism. 6 months later he doesn't like that he cant live his old life so he decides to go back and live with his group. As he tries to live his old life(individual agency) he has a tremendous amount of guilt because he's been given further light and knowledge of Gods plan, he can never be totally comfortable again because of it. He's been transformed through the atonement, he's never free from the knowledge he has gained. This is what Elder Bednar is saying to me, your mind is never free to sin again without knowing what your doing is against Gods will. 

Though all of that story you are telling, free agency always obtains.  It never goes away.  Commitments and covenants can be made, and a new way of life entered into, the same way a drug addict might come out of rehab, but he never loses his free choice.  You are talking about conscience and a heightened sense of guilt.  You can say that he now understands better what the true choices are.  Whether he relapses or not is the question, and it is always his free choice.  Same as Jesus in Gethsemane or on the Cross -- he always had the choice to say No and chuck it all, despite his commitments to his Father's Plan.  Without free choice, his Atonement would have been meaningless.  All of us, including Jesus, must be able to fail, in order for our choices to have any meaning at all.  That is why we are here.  None of us is locked into anything.  Any of us can fail miserably, and we all have on this or that occasion.

You have been misled by legaleze.  That's what "representative agency" sounds like.  The mission of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is to prepare the way for the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.  We are doing crucial preparatory work, all of it voluntary.  No one is hectoring us to do it, nor persecuting those who fall short.  Free agency is fully operative every second.  It never goes away, even as the Lord waits patiently for us to repent and humbly seek his grace.  It's not over till it's over, Mike.

Edited February 13, 2021 by Robert F. Smith

[let’s roll]

The way to The Way

I did it my way converts to

I did it His way converts to

I did it our way.

[Tacenda]

6 hours ago, katherine the great said:

His reasoning is mystifying to me. Do I stop labeling myself as a grandma because I’m not only a grandma? Stop calling myself an anthropologist because that doesn’t define everything that I am? A sister, a mother, an LDS woman? It’s a weird argument.  

Agree!

[Calm]

9 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Ok, well, do what you think Heavenly Mother would do, to me it's the same thing, I know I've only been on here a couple months, but I probably talk about her more than anyone else on here, I even see her when I pray. The God i know wouldn't care if you want to represent Heavenly Mother, I think I've proven that's what I believe if you read my post about her.

No, I think the right way to phrase it is not “what would God do”, but “what would God want me to do”. Not only does it put the question imo into a more accurate framework, it is not as emotionally overwhelming. 

[Tacenda]

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

No, I think the right way to phrase it is not “what would God do”, but “what would God want me to do”. Not only does it put the question imo into a more accurate framework, it is not as emotionally overwhelming. 

Does this conflict with the teaching in our church to become like Him?

Edited February 14, 2021 by Tacenda

[Calm]

6 hours ago, katherine the great said:

His reasoning is mystifying to me. Do I stop labeling myself as a grandma because I’m not only a grandma? Stop calling myself an anthropologist because that doesn’t define everything that I am? A sister, a mother, an LDS woman? It’s a weird argument.  

The only thing I can think of is he doesn’t believe any label should become who we are to ourselves and others to the diminishment or even exclusion of what else we are and do.