Is there free agency in Mormonism?

[Kenngo1969]

4 minutes ago, Damien the Leper said:

I was always taught that there is no such thing as "free" agency.

The best blood in all of human history was spilt for it, so I'd hardly call that "free."  I prefer the term moral agency, for whatever that's worth.

[Stargazer]

3 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

I was always taught that all of Gods children are born with individual agency so at some point in their mortal existence, they can choose God. Upon choosing God and entering into a covenant (spiritual contract) our individual agency is exalted to become representative agency, we no longer possess individual agency, meaning, we become agents not unto ourselves, but agents to represent God, representing him in every thing we do while here on earth and beyond. 

    After entering into the covenant  to represent him, we're not free to do what we want anymore. Our sole purpose is to represent him, only choosing what God would do if he was walking the earth. Meaning, once we enter the covenant we're not free to choose to NOT pay tithing, because that would be the exact opposite of what God would choose. This would be the same for all the other commandments. So basically, us thinking we have the ability to choose what we want is a false notion, spread by satan, because he rather we live our mortal life in bondage, preparing us for an eternal existence without our agency that was promised to us through our eternal covenant. Any thoughts?

With all due and cheerful respect, this is utter baloney. Wait, I should not make malign comparisons with my favorite mystery meat...  OK, how about this, this actually made me laugh, so maybe it's comedy. Maybe not George Carlin-level comedy, and I doubt you could take it on the road as a standup comedian, but really, you can't be serious. So you must be joking.

I'll tell you who has lost their free agency. It's the poor soul who has become addicted to mind-altering substances, who cannot bear waiting until his next fix, and who will do whatever it take to get it. The Word of Wisdom frees me from that particular worry. And all along, I still have the divine right to choose to go out and try something if I want. The government would get very upset and might even fine me or put me in jail for buying a couple of ounces of meth, for example, but God wouldn't do a thing to stop me. I have more freedom to choose in my left pinky than the drug-addled guy huddled under the bridge has in his whole body.

But we needn't go that far. I have friends who do not belong to any church, and they don't pay tithing, they drink socially, smoke occasionally, and they go where they want every day of the week, except that they might have to put in 8 hours a day 5 days a week in order to keep food on the table and a roof over their heads. I have exactly as much freedom as they do. We each choose differently, but we each can choose. How on earth am I more constrained than they? They choose A; I choose B. But we can all change our minds if we want.

Once I enter the covenant I am no more constrained than I was before I entered it. I can choose to violate it as much as I want. The only thing I lose is the reward of the covenant. And Father is generous enough to let me repent and come back under the covenant.

There was a song years ago, Gentle on my Mind. It seem apropos:

It's knowing that your door is always open and your path is free to walk
That makes me tend to leave my sleeping bag rolled up and stashed behind your couch
And it's knowing I'm not shackled by forgotten words and bonds
And the ink stains that have dried up on some line
That keeps you in the back roads by the rivers of my memory
That keeps you ever gentle on my mind

I'm not shackled. My covenants are not written with ink. But I feel freer now than I ever did before I joined the Church and entered into these covenants.

 

Edited February 12, 2021 by Stargazer

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

If after entering into our covenant  we dont abide by the conditions of the covenant, for example not paying tithing, that would be considered breaking a covenant,  so basically your not using your representative agency (the agency of Gods covenant people) the agency you chose to live, actually you promised to live your life by. Your using  another agency  you dont possess anymore. So that means your breaking a covenant. 

So what? You're free to do so! 

If you go 70 mph in a 50 mph zone, the Highway Patrol is going to give you a ticket. But you're free to do it. You signed that driver's license -- and a signature constitutes a contract or a covenant. You're under covenant to obey the rules of the road. But you're not forced to obey them. Mash down on the accelerator, and if you get caught you pay a fine. But the covenant does not force you to obey the rules. You choose to do so, or you choose to violate it.

[Damien the Leper]

15 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

The best blood in all of human history was spilt for it, so I'd hardly call that "free."  I prefer the term moral agency, for whatever that's worth.

Agreed. Also, the "free" part neglects the reality of consequence.

[AtlanticMike]

3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

With all due and cheerful respect, this is utter baloney. Wait, I should not make malign comparisons with my favorite mystery meat...  OK, how about this, this actually made me laugh, so maybe it's comedy. Maybe not George Carlin-level comedy, and I doubt you could take it on the road as a standup comedian, but really, you can't be serious. So you must be joking.

Out of everything you just said, what concerned me the most is the fact you eat baloney. As a self professed health nut, I would ask you to do an experiment, look down, if your unable to see your penis you might want to reconsider eating baloney, especially if your putting it on bread, that's a big no no. May I suggest switching to organic chicken breast or even tuna. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣  Sorry, I couldn't resist, your the one who brought up George Carlin and that's exactly what he would of said to you. I still love you stargazer. 

 

Also, please explain to me how you get baloney to come out of an utter????😁 I've milked a few cows, even a goat, all I've ever gotten is milk.

 

Edited February 12, 2021 by AtlanticMike

[Tacenda]

Deleted my post, it's irrelevant.

 

Edited February 12, 2021 by Tacenda

[Stargazer]

1 minute ago, AtlanticMike said:

Out of everything you just said, what concerned me the most is the fact you eat baloney. As a self professed health nut, I would ask you to do an experiment, look down, if your unable to see your penis you might want to reconsider eating baloney, especially if your putting it on bread, that's a big no no. May I suggest switching to organic chicken breast or even tuna. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣  Sorry, I couldn't resist, your the one who brought up George Carlon and that's exactly what he would of said to you. I still love stargazer.

 

Well, note that I said it's my favorite mystery meat. I didn't say I ate it! LOL!  

I cannot see the item you mention, by the way, but it's not baloney's fault. It's more the potatoes.

Another by the way, when I read your opening post I genuinely did spontaneously laugh. I wasn't just saying that. Thanks for posting it; always nice to have both laughter- and thought-provoking things to read.

[AtlanticMike]

4 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Well, note that I said it's my favorite mystery meat. I didn't say I ate it! LOL!  

I cannot see the item you mention, by the way, but it's not baloney's fault. It's more the potatoes.

Another by the way, when I read your opening post I genuinely did spontaneously laugh. I wasn't just saying that. Thanks for posting it; always nice to have both laughter- and thought-provoking things to read.

Thank you for having a sense of humor. Did you watch the link I provided to nehor?

Edited February 12, 2021 by AtlanticMike

[Stargazer]

38 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Thank you for having a sense of humor. Did you watch the link I provided to nehor?

I was thinking of watching it, but at the moment I'm in the middle of six other different things. My ADD is "on" FULL at the moment. Pegging the meter. I will try to get to it sometime today or tomorrow.

[Ahab]

5 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

I was always taught that all of Gods children are born with individual agency so at some point in their mortal existence, they can choose God. Upon choosing God and entering into a covenant (spiritual contract) our individual agency is exalted to become representative agency, we no longer possess individual agency, meaning, we become agents not unto ourselves, but agents to represent God, representing him in every thing we do while here on earth and beyond. 

    After entering into the covenant  to represent him, we're not free to do what we want anymore. Our sole purpose is to represent him, only choosing what God would do if he was walking the earth. Meaning, once we enter the covenant we're not free to choose to NOT pay tithing, because that would be the exact opposite of what God would choose. This would be the same for all the other commandments. So basically, us thinking we have the ability to choose what we want is a false notion, spread by satan, because he rather we live our mortal life in bondage, preparing us for an eternal existence without our agency that was promised to us through our eternal covenant. Any thoughts?

What we need now is a pie chart or a graph or something like that  Or maybe just a basic outline will work.  I will try that even though I am not an expert on how to create one online.

1. We can choose to do anything we have the power to do.

(tab) 1a. We can do what God/our Father wants us to do.

(tab) 1b.We can do what Satan wants us to do.

(tab) 1c. We can do something that is neither 1a or 1b if there is such an option.

Now I'm going to go back up to 1a and add a little more detail.

(tab) 1a. We can do what God/our Father wants us to do.

(tab) (tab) I.  Once we choose to do what God/our Father wants us to do we are stuck on choosing to do only something God/our Father wants us to do, otherwise we would not be choosing the 1a option and instead we would be choosing either 1b or 1c.

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Thank you Robert. When you have the time would you mind watching the video above I gave nehor. The timestamp shown is about 7 or so minutes. I have found the same concept in a few older books mostly from the 40s to 70s

Alot of my views come from church talks, I listen as I'm working

 

 

I watched or fast forwarded through a lot of it and Elder Bednard mentions a question about self reliance at 52:40 and then goes on to discuss that he doesn't like the term "self reliance" and that we should rely on the Saviour, and then at 54:00 he brings up moral agency and how it's the least understood topic in the church. I'm thinking this is the whole point of your opening topic because he brings up the three covenants we make at baptism and how that is our agency, when we accept and make those promises and take the name of Christ upon us, and then we go on the pathway to the temple and increasing the ways for the Holy Ghost to be in our lives and then we are to represent Him in all phases of our lives and that is how our agency is enlarged, and at all times and in all places it becomes more important than what we want. And how we remember Him will help us represent Him. (I'm typing this as I listen, haha). A good refresher!

[JustAnAustralian]

I've heard Bednar say something - that I assume is similar - I haven't watched the video - before

not 100% sure of its word for wordiness, it was in the notes app on my phone and I was rushing to type it in.

"The fundamental least understood principle of the gospel is agency. It is not an option to break a covenant. You don't have a choice. You've already made the choice when you entered into the covenant."

My reading of it now is very different to when I heard it 5 years ago. My reading is that you cannot suddenly expect to get out of the covenant just by not following it. God offered the terms, you accepted, the existence of the covenant doesn't change just because you decide not to keep your side of it.

Edited February 12, 2021 by JustAnAustralian

[JustAnAustralian]

I've heard Bednar say something - that I assume is similar - I haven't watched the video - before

not 100% sure of its word for wordiness, it was in the notes app on my phone and I was rushing to type it in.

 

~"The fundamental least understood principle of the gospel is agency. It is not an option to break a covenant. You don't have a choice. You've already made the choice when you entered into the covenant."~ D.A.B March 2015

My reading of it now is very different to when I heard it 5 years ago. My reading is that you cannot suddenly expect to get out of the covenant just by not following it. God offered the terms, you accepted, the existence of the covenant doesn't change just because you decide not to keep your side of it.

Edited February 12, 2021 by JustAnAustralian

[Ahab]

Kind of like marriage.  Once you choose to get married, and the person you choose to marry also chooses to marry you, and then you actually get married, legally, then you're married, and the only way to get unmarried is to break that marriage contract.

Edited February 12, 2021 by Ahab

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Also, pleas explain to me how you get baloney to come out of an utter????😁 I've milked a few cows, even a goat, all I've ever gotten is milk.

I make no pleas. That's @smac97's job.

 

 

[JLHPROF]

5 hours ago, JustAnAustralian said:

~"The fundamental least understood principle of the gospel is agency. It is not an option to break a covenant. You don't have a choice. You've already made the choice when you entered into the covenant."~ D.A.B March 2015

My reading of it now is very different to when I heard it 5 years ago. My reading is that you cannot suddenly expect to get out of the covenant just by not following it. God offered the terms, you accepted, the existence of the covenant doesn't change just because you decide not to keep your side of it.

Most people who think they are walking away from a covenant are in for a shock.

The covenant still exists and God may still hold them to it one day.  All they are doing is postponing their obedience, possibly until the Lord allows it to become too unpleasant to ignore and they are compelled to obey.

[Calm]

Quote

  After entering into the covenant  to represent him, we're not free to do what we want anymore. Our sole purpose is to represent him, only choosing what God would do if he was walking the earth. 

Representing Christ to me is not doing exactly what he would do if he were on earth because that is impossible (plus Christ couldn’t do what I did as part of my choices to contribute to God’s work, which was carry and birth two babies), but doing what I and others can to further his mission (immortality, eternal life, and joy for mankind).

Also the whole point of seeking God and accepting the Atonement is so that we become people who want to do our best for God and others, so the idea we are not doing what we want to do when we obey God doesn’t work for me. We obey God because we want to, possibly in the beginning out of fear that he may punish us, but as we learn obedience we also learn about his love, so it becomes our joy as well to live our covenants to love God and others. 
 

Nor do I see him wanting us all to become cookie cutter robots without thought save to act exactly like God. I truly believe that having joy in our existence means making the most of our uniqueness.  He doesn’t need me to do what he did as he already did all that, he wants me to be the best me for my own happiness and joy and for others. 

Edited February 13, 2021 by Calm

[teddyaware]

7 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I don't know that I would say that my job is to be an automaton for God, to do simply what HIs "programming" tells me to do, but the only thing that I have left to give back to God that He did not give me in the first place is my will.  https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2013/06/08/on-submitting-my-will-to-gods/

The Doctrine and Covenants testifies that without the absolute free will of mankind, and all intelligences, nothing could exist..

30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

If we don’t have actual free will it means God and his prophets are liars, which is tantamount to saying God is a devil and his “prophets” are angels to the devil. All of this talk about the illusion of free will is of the devil and designed to undermine faith in God being a God of truth.

[Kenngo1969]

16 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

The Doctrine and Covenants testifies that without the absolute free will of mankind, and all intelligences, nothing could exist..

30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

If we don’t have actual free will it means God and his prophets are liars, which is tantamount to saying God is a devil and his “prophets” are angels to the devil. All of this talk about the illusion of free will is of the devil and designed to undermine faith in God being a God of truth.

Do you think I disagree with the scripture?  Why?  I'm not sure what I have said that is at odds with it.

[teddyaware]

8 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Do you think I disagree with the scripture?  Why?  I'm not sure what I have said that is at odds with it.

My intent was to reinforce your much appreciated agreement with the scriptures.

[AtlanticMike]

9 hours ago, teddyaware said:

If we don’t have actual free will it means God and his prophets are liars, which is tantamount to saying God is a devil and his “prophets” are angels to the devil. All of this talk about the illusion of free will is of the devil and designed to undermine faith in God being a God of truth.

I'm really starting to think you dont like me, oh well. Did you even watch the video, he's giving the people in the audience an unvarnished version of what happens to Gods covenant people if they sin. Your looking at it completely wrong. Let me explain the way I see it, and I'm going to do it in a very colorful way so hopefully you get the point he's trying to make.

    There are many men that work for me that have the ability to walk into a titty bar and sit down, stuff dollars into a beautiful women's thong, the women will rub her hair all over them, getting glitter on the guys faces, their clothes, and the guys absolutely love it. When the guys leave and go home there's nothing inside them telling what they did was wrong, again there's nothing INSIDE of them that SCREAMS, what the hell did you just do!! They live a life free to do whatever they want physically and consciously. 

       Now you teddyaware, you have complete freedom to physically  walk into your local titty bar and sit down and get as glittery as you want, you even have the ability to throw a $20 on the stage and become that girls best friend for as long as you want, just keep throwing $20s she'll make you priority #1.

      But even though you're physically free to do what you want, mentally, consciously, your not because you made a covenant with God and have CHOSEN a life of representing him, you will have a very very heavy weight upon your soul until you repent of going into that bar and getting all glittery. You will be in a mental bondage until you repent, God wont allow you to be FREE of your guilt until you repent. Everything we do is always tied back to the atonement. So when Elder Bednar is telling the audience your not FREE to NOT pay your tithing, he's not meaning physically, he's talking spiritually and mentally. 

   Now go back to my opening statement and see if it makes more sense to you, or watch the video again, I think it might make more sense to you. hopefully this helped.

 

Ps. Tell me, do you think you have the freedom to sin without having a guilty conscience? 

Edited February 13, 2021 by AtlanticMike
Spelling

[AtlanticMike]

9 hours ago, Calm said:

Representing Christ to me is not doing exactly what he would do if he were on earth because that is impossible (plus Christ couldn’t do what I did as part of my choices to contribute to God’s work, which was carry and birth two babies), but doing what I and others can to further his mission (immortality, eternal life, and joy for mankind).

I never said you had to be perfect. Have you ever wondered why we dont have a cross on top of 99.9% of our buildings? Its because we dont use a cross as a symbol of our worship, its because we preach a message of the living christ. And part of that is emulating what he did while here on earth. As best we can. The life we live is the symbol of our worship, also of our church. 

[Stargazer]

19 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

https://youtu.be/P96APKw1EfQ

 

When you can find the time, please watch this church video from 54:00 to 102:30, I could be wrong, but would love to learn more about agency if you guys could help me out. Again do we have free agency to do what we want?

Okay, I see what you're saying, and what Elder Bednar is saying, but (is there always a but?) we can still choose to reject the covenant after having entered into it. When he says that our representing the Christ at all times, in all places, and in all things becomes more important than what we want, it still remains the fact that we can still choose to cease representing the Christ. We can still choose to leave the covenant. I do understand that having entered willingly into the covenant I am a man on a mission. I am taking a message to Garcia.  I have made an eternal commitment.  My agency is enlarged, as he puts it, to be on that mission.

But I can still choose to reject that covenant, leave the mission, and drop the message into the waste bin. I am allowed to do so, I am not God's robot, but I will forfeit the blessings that would have resulted from keeping to the path.

 

[AtlanticMike]

19 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

At the Heavenly Council (the big one), two proposals were made:  Lucifer ("Light-bearer") proposed to save everyone by taking away free agency, thus guaranteeing that all would be saved -- because they would not be able to contravene the will of God.  Jesus ("Salvation") proposed instead that free agency be given and that He himself would become a human sacrifice to pay the price for the consequent sin (disobedience) of mankind.  God the Father liked the second plan best since it accorded with eternal law and His own will.  He knew full well that free agency is eternal and cannot ever be contravened, no matter the cost.  No one ever loses free agency, except in the chains of Hell and the bleak emptiness of Outer Darkness.  It is an eternal principle.

One third of the Host of Heaven chose to follow Lucifer, a Son of the Morning, perhaps thinking that they would be safe with his blandishments.  Two-thirds chose to follow Jesus and God the Father, to risk everything, trusting that their Elder Brother Jesus would provide the necessary grace to save all those who chose to accept it, because free agency meant that all would fall short and that all would sin.  They willingly faced the eternal reality of Opposition in All Things.  Only faith could make them willing to risk it all.

I understand what your saying here Robert, but I'm not talkin about in heaven. I'm talking about entering into a covenant with God here on earth. There are plenty of men and women on earth who can sin without having a guilty conscience afterwards because they dont know better. Also they haven't allowed the holy ghost into their soul as a guide. We on the other hand have chosen to accept the terms of the agreement in the covenant, and if we hold up our end, we will be free here on earth and also in eternity. 

     Through the covenant that starts at our baptism God is offering complete freedom on earth and in heaven. Once entering the covenant, your are never free to go back and live your life without it. That's what Elder Bednar is saying. You have moved beyond that part of your life. 

     

[AtlanticMike]

18 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Okay, I see what you're saying, and what Elder Bednar is saying, but (is there always a but?) we can still choose to reject the covenant after having entered into it. When he says that our representing the Christ at all times, in all places, and in all things becomes more important than what we want, it still remains the fact that we can still choose to cease representing the Christ. We can still choose to leave the covenant. I do understand that having entered willingly into the covenant I am a man on a mission. I am taking a message to Garcia.  I have made an eternal commitment.  My agency is enlarged, as he puts it, to be on that mission.

But I can still choose to reject that covenant, leave the mission, and drop the message into the waste bin. I am allowed to do so, I am not God's robot, but I will forfeit the blessings that would have resulted from keeping to the path.

 

To me what he's saying is your not free to go back and live a life free physically and mentally anymore without a guilty conscience. Like I said, I know plenty of people who can live that way, they sleep like a baby at night after leaving the bar. Me on the other hand, I cant even enter the bar without feeling a since of doom, pure dread, a feeling of letting everyone who loves me down. The covenant I made allowed me to have an eternal compass (holy ghost) that most dont have. Again, physically I could walk into the door of that bar, but mentally I'm not free to do that like my buddies are. 

 

 

Ps. I just reread your post, you said we can still chose to not represent Christ, I agree with that, but you also said we can reject the covenant after entering in to it. I dont agree with that part, that's where we see it differently. I believe your not free to reject the covenant, if you were, it wouldn't be a covenant. Even members who remove their names from the roles of the church dont void out the covenant they made with God, in my opinion. 

 

Edited February 13, 2021 by AtlanticMike