AtlanticMike Posted February 12, 2021 Posted February 12, 2021 (edited) I was always taught that all of Gods children are born with individual agency so at some point in their mortal existence, they can choose God. Upon choosing God and entering into a covenant (spiritual contract) our individual agency is exalted to become representative agency, we no longer possess individual agency, meaning, we become agents not unto ourselves, but agents to represent God, representing him in every thing we do while here on earth and beyond. After entering into the covenant to represent him, we're not free to do what we want anymore. Our sole purpose is to represent him, only choosing what God would do if he was walking the earth. Meaning, once we enter the covenant we're not free to choose to NOT pay tithing, because that would be the exact opposite of what God would choose. This would be the same for all the other commandments. So basically, us thinking we have the ability to choose what we want is a false notion, spread by satan, because he rather we live our mortal life in bondage, preparing us for an eternal existence without our agency that was promised to us through our eternal covenant. Any thoughts? watch from 54:00 to 102:30 watch from 43:45 to 45:00 Edited February 13, 2021 by AtlanticMike
Calm Posted February 12, 2021 Posted February 12, 2021 (edited) 11 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said: I was always taught that all.... By who? Quote Our sole purpose is to represent him, only choosing what God would do if he was walking the earth. That doesn’t really make sense since he wouldn’t have the life we have. And how is the covenant made? If baptism or temple, what does this mean for all those who never got a chance while living? Edited February 12, 2021 by Calm 4
AtlanticMike Posted February 12, 2021 Author Posted February 12, 2021 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Calm said: That doesn’t really make sense since he wouldn’t have the life we have Aren't we supposed to represent him in all times, in all places and all things? 33 minutes ago, Calm said: 43 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said: I was always taught that all.... By who Mom, teachers, apostles 33 minutes ago, Calm said: And how is the covenant made? If baptism or temple, what does this mean for all those who never got a chance while living Covenant starts in the water of baptism, it's a life long process, continuing in the temple, then living a life of following the commandments and representing God. Unlike Christian's, who think they take upon them the name of christ fully in the waters of baptism, I could be wrong on that, we believe the waters of baptism is only the beginning, it's a life long process for us. As far as the people who didnt get a chance, i dont know, i dont think we will truly know until we die and gain further knowledge. Edited February 12, 2021 by AtlanticMike
InCognitus Posted February 12, 2021 Posted February 12, 2021 People still have agency to break their covenants, or NOT. But those who come to love God and develop love for others the way that God loves others (pure charity) will naturally want to do the same things that God does. People who love God WANT to build up the kingdom of God by paying tithing (for example). It is their agency that allows them to choose to do that. Satan wants us to believe that we lose our agency by keeping the commandments. But the truth is that keeping the commandments gives us more opportunities for growth and creative choices than the bondage that comes through sin. 3
Popular Post bluebell Posted February 12, 2021 Popular Post Posted February 12, 2021 57 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said: I was always taught that all of Gods children are born with individual agency so at some point in their mortal existence, they can choose God. Upon choosing God and entering into a covenant (spiritual contract) our individual agency is exalted to become representative agency, we no longer possess individual agency, meaning, we become agents not unto ourselves, but agents to represent God, representing him in every thing we do while here on earth and beyond. After entering into the covenant to represent him, we're not free to do what we want anymore. Our sole purpose is to represent him, only choosing what God would do if he was walking the earth. Meaning, once we enter the covenant we're not free to choose to NOT pay tithing, because that would be the exact opposite of what God would choose. This would be the same for all the other commandments. So basically, us thinking we have the ability to choose what we want is a false notion, spread by satan, because he rather we live our mortal life in bondage, preparing us for an eternal existence without our agency that was promised to us through our eternal covenant. Any thoughts? I've never heard anything like that taught in all my years of being a member (34+ years). 7
CV75 Posted February 12, 2021 Posted February 12, 2021 1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said: I was always taught that all of Gods children are born with individual agency so at some point in their mortal existence, they can choose God. Upon choosing God and entering into a covenant (spiritual contract) our individual agency is exalted to become representative agency, we no longer possess individual agency, meaning, we become agents not unto ourselves, but agents to represent God, representing him in every thing we do while here on earth and beyond. After entering into the covenant to represent him, we're not free to do what we want anymore. Our sole purpose is to represent him, only choosing what God would do if he was walking the earth. Meaning, once we enter the covenant we're not free to choose to NOT pay tithing, because that would be the exact opposite of what God would choose. This would be the same for all the other commandments. So basically, us thinking we have the ability to choose what we want is a false notion, spread by satan, because he rather we live our mortal life in bondage, preparing us for an eternal existence without our agency that was promised to us through our eternal covenant. Any thoughts? CAN'T vs WON'T? 1
AtlanticMike Posted February 12, 2021 Author Posted February 12, 2021 10 minutes ago, InCognitus said: People still have agency to break their covenants, or NOT. But those who come to love God and develop love for others the way that God loves others (pure charity) will naturally want to do the same things that God does. People who love God WANT to build up the kingdom of God by paying tithing (for example). It is their agency that allows them to choose to do that. Satan wants us to believe that we lose our agency by keeping the commandments. But the truth is that keeping the commandments gives us more opportunities for growth and creative choices than the bondage that comes through sin. If after entering into our covenant we dont abide by the conditions of the covenant, for example not paying tithing, that would be considered breaking a covenant, so basically your not using your representative agency (the agency of Gods covenant people) the agency you chose to live, actually you promised to live your life by. Your using another agency you dont possess anymore. So that means your breaking a covenant.
katherine the great Posted February 12, 2021 Posted February 12, 2021 It sounds vaguely familiar to me. I remember being taught st some point that free agency should not be confused with free will. There was some complex explanation. I never paid much attention to it because I always tend to go with the simplest interpretation or the one that makes the most sense to me. 2
AtlanticMike Posted February 12, 2021 Author Posted February 12, 2021 12 minutes ago, bluebell said: I've never heard anything like that taught in all my years of being a member (34+ years). Damn, looking at your picture I would of guessed you were in your twenties. 1
InCognitus Posted February 12, 2021 Posted February 12, 2021 Just now, AtlanticMike said: If after entering into our covenant we dont abide by the conditions of the covenant, for example not paying tithing, that would be considered breaking a covenant, so basically your not using your representative agency (the agency of Gods covenant people) the agency you chose to live, actually you promised to live your life by. Your using another agency you dont possess anymore. So that means your breaking a covenant. How exactly would we be using someone else's agency if we come to love others the same way God loves others and have compassion on them and attend to their needs? How exactly are we using someone else's agency if we love God so much that we are willing to help support the building up of the kingdom of God on earth by paying tithing?
The Nehor Posted February 12, 2021 Posted February 12, 2021 Limiting agency to only be about choosing good from evil is fundamentally flawed. 3
Robert F. Smith Posted February 12, 2021 Posted February 12, 2021 26 minutes ago, InCognitus said: People still have agency to break their covenants, or NOT. But those who come to love God and develop love for others the way that God loves others (pure charity) will naturally want to do the same things that God does. People who love God WANT to build up the kingdom of God by paying tithing (for example). It is their agency that allows them to choose to do that. Satan wants us to believe that we lose our agency by keeping the commandments. But the truth is that keeping the commandments gives us more opportunities for growth and creative choices than the bondage that comes through sin. At the Heavenly Council (the big one), two proposals were made: Lucifer ("Light-bearer") proposed to save everyone by taking away free agency, thus guaranteeing that all would be saved -- because they would not be able to contravene the will of God. Jesus ("Salvation") proposed instead that free agency be given and that He himself would become a human sacrifice to pay the price for the consequent sin (disobedience) of mankind. God the Father liked the second plan best since it accorded with eternal law and His own will. He knew full well that free agency is eternal and cannot ever be contravened, no matter the cost. No one ever loses free agency, except in the chains of Hell and the bleak emptiness of Outer Darkness. It is an eternal principle. One third of the Host of Heaven chose to follow Lucifer, a Son of the Morning, perhaps thinking that they would be safe with his blandishments. Two-thirds chose to follow Jesus and God the Father, to risk everything, trusting that their Elder Brother Jesus would provide the necessary grace to save all those who chose to accept it, because free agency meant that all would fall short and that all would sin. They willingly faced the eternal reality of Opposition in All Things. Only faith could make them willing to risk it all. 1
AtlanticMike Posted February 12, 2021 Author Posted February 12, 2021 6 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Limiting agency to only be about choosing good from evil is fundamentally flawed. https://youtu.be/P96APKw1EfQ When you can find the time, please watch this church video from 54:00 to 102:30, I could be wrong, but would love to learn more about agency if you guys could help me out. Again do we have free agency to do what we want?
Robert F. Smith Posted February 12, 2021 Posted February 12, 2021 16 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said: If after entering into our covenant we dont abide by the conditions of the covenant, for example not paying tithing, that would be considered breaking a covenant, so basically your not using your representative agency (the agency of Gods covenant people) the agency you chose to live, actually you promised to live your life by. Your using another agency you dont possess anymore. So that means your breaking a covenant. You have it exactly backward, Mike. I have never heard the term "representative agency" in any context, except from you. You may be confusing the principle of agency with representing an agency or organization, as in "FBI agent." An FBI agent does represent his Federal Agency, and must follow its rules. But that is not at all the same as the principle of freedom to choose among given options. LDS members never lose their free agency, freedom to choose. Choices are lifelong and one is never prevented from choosing this or that option in following or not following LDS teachings. Covenants made can be kept, or not, as one wishes, throughout life. And then comes the Judgment. One self-monitors obedience to this or that religious law or obligation, thus exhibiting faith -- or not. The Church may expel public miscreants, who then still remain free to exercise their choices. Choices to repent or to continue on the road to Hell. The LDS Church is not a theocracy.
AtlanticMike Posted February 12, 2021 Author Posted February 12, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: You have it exactly backward, Mike. I have never heard the term "representative agency" in any context, except from you. You may be confusing the principle of agency with representing an agency or organization, as in "FBI agent." An FBI agent does represent his Federal Agency, and must follow its rules. But that is not at all the same as the principle of freedom to choose among given options. LDS members never lose their free agency, freedom to choose. Choices are lifelong and one is never prevented from choosing this or that option in following or not following LDS teachings. Covenants made can be kept, or not, as one wishes, throughout life. And then comes the Judgment. One self-monitors obedience to this or that religious law or obligation, thus exhibiting faith -- or not. The Church may expel public miscreants, who then still remain free to exercise their choices. Choices to repent or to continue on the road to Hell. The LDS Church is not a theocracy. Thank you Robert. When you have the time would you mind watching the video above I gave nehor. The timestamp shown is about 7 or so minutes. I have found the same concept in a few older books mostly from the 40s to 70s Alot of my views come from church talks, I listen as I'm working Edited February 12, 2021 by AtlanticMike
Robert F. Smith Posted February 12, 2021 Posted February 12, 2021 1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said: ................ So basically, us thinking we have the ability to choose what we want is a false notion, spread by satan, because he rather we live our mortal life in bondage, preparing us for an eternal existence without our agency that was promised to us through our eternal covenant. Any thoughts? Many scientists argue that we do not have free will, that the universe is a complex mechanism in which everything is deterministic and predictable -- based on natural law. The Presbyterian notion of predestination is very similar in that God predetermines whether one is saved or damned -- since God is all powerful and fully sovereign, and created everything (including good and evil).
The Nehor Posted February 12, 2021 Posted February 12, 2021 32 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said: https://youtu.be/P96APKw1EfQ When you can find the time, please watch this church video from 54:00 to 102:30, I could be wrong, but would love to learn more about agency if you guys could help me out. Again do we have free agency to do what we want? Yes, but it is not the primary purpose of agency (doing what we want). Elder Bednar is correct. The best use of agency is to choose God. Where people go wrong is in assuming that this is some rigid lockstep thing where every situation has one correct answer. The exercise of agency is also us (in our limited way) choosing how to love and serve God and how to love and serve others. God will not condemn people for choosing different methods of following those commandments conditioned on our capabilities and limitations? There are lots of wonderful things we can do and out inventive minds can come up with different ways of accomplishing them. That is what Celestial glory allows and amplifies. The glorious differences in how we live righteously and the shared joy in all of them. People get lost in the weeds when it is argued that righteousness is stultifying and we need to leaven it with evil to keep things interesting. Hugh Nibley once said something to the effect of ‘they lived happily ever after’ would be the beginning of a good story if we knew how to tell stories right. These minor differences in us now are only shadows of the great and beautiful individuality of the Gods. The best part is that we then get to enjoy all of that individuality as we celebrate others as much as we celebrate ourselves. 1
CV75 Posted February 12, 2021 Posted February 12, 2021 I was taught that passive learning limits our agency. 1
Stormin' Mormon Posted February 12, 2021 Posted February 12, 2021 (edited) I was taught that "free agency" is a bit of misnomer, and that we should instead use the term "moral agency." Under the concept of moral agency, we have: 1. Knowledge of what is good and evil 2. The ability to choose between two or more options 3. Consequences that stem from our choices (As an aside, my reading of Moses 4:1 leads me to believe that Satan's plan would not have removed #2 from the above list, but rather #3. Removing any of those items would "destroy the agency of man" so his plan was to save mankind, regardless of our earthly choices, not to force us to do good.) edited to add: Focusing on only the "free to choose" aspect of moral agency can lead us in to some misunderstandings of the concept. Edited February 12, 2021 by Stormin' Mormon 2
JLHPROF Posted February 12, 2021 Posted February 12, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, AtlanticMike said: After entering into the covenant to represent him, we're not free to do what we want anymore. Our sole purpose is to represent him, only choosing what God would do if he was walking the earth. Meaning, once we enter the covenant we're not free to choose to NOT pay tithing, because that would be the exact opposite of what God would choose. This would be the same for all the other commandments. So basically, us thinking we have the ability to choose what we want is a false notion, spread by satan, because he rather we live our mortal life in bondage, preparing us for an eternal existence without our agency that was promised to us through our eternal covenant. Any thoughts? No, I don't think this is correct but I may be misunderstanding. 1. Those who obey God have more agency, more ability to choose than those who follow/followed Satan. It is an eternal principle that disobedience curbs agency while obedience provides more choices. 2. Those who agree to obey God ARE obligated to live up to their commitments. They may even be influenced or compelled but they still choose. This is not a loss of agency because those commitments can still be broken with consequence. When you say "once we enter the covenant we're not free to choose to NOT pay tithing, because that would be the exact opposite of what God would choose" there are thousands of people in this covenant who neglect to pay tithing all the time. Clearly they are free to choose. So when you say not free to choose you must be referring to choosing without consequence. A lack of consequence is not agency. Edited February 12, 2021 by JLHPROF 1
AtlanticMike Posted February 12, 2021 Author Posted February 12, 2021 The way I understand what he's saying is, once entering into his eternal covenant, there's no debating your way into exaltation, his set the rules, there's no actual choice. Just like everything else, your agency isnt free, christ paid for it through the atonement.
Stormin' Mormon Posted February 12, 2021 Posted February 12, 2021 23 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Clearly they are free to choose. So when you say not free to choose you must be referring to choosing without consequence. A lack of consequence is not agency. Yes, exactly this. Suffering bad consequences from bad choices is in no way a curtailment of the freedom to choose. I see this misunderstanding all the time, in both political and religious contexts. That's why an understanding of moral agency includes knowledge, choice, AND consequences as necessary conditions for a meaningful moral action. 3
bluebell Posted February 12, 2021 Posted February 12, 2021 1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said: Damn, looking at your picture I would of guessed you were in your twenties. I'm 44 and that picture was taken last September. Never doubt the wonders of good lighting. It evens out everything! 2
Damien the Leper Posted February 12, 2021 Posted February 12, 2021 I was always taught that there is no such thing as "free" agency. 1
Kenngo1969 Posted February 12, 2021 Posted February 12, 2021 I don't know that I would say that my job is to be an automaton for God, to do simply what HIs "programming" tells me to do, but the only thing that I have left to give back to God that He did not give me in the first place is my will. https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2013/06/08/on-submitting-my-will-to-gods/
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