Catholic Bishop: Abortion Is the 'Preeminent Evil in Our Culture.

[smac97]

Hmm:

Quote

The slaughtering of unborn babies in abortions is a “preeminent evil in our culture” and it is destroying society, the Catholic bishop of Grand Island, Nebraska said this month.

On Oct. 1, Bishop Joseph G. Hanefeldt wrote a strong message for Respect Life month, Breitbart reports. He urged Christians to “get on our knees and pray for God’s mercy to save our souls, guilty of the tragic disregard for his sovereignty and the sanctity of human life, made in his image and likeness!”

“Abortion on demand has been the preeminent evil in our culture since it was legalized in 1973,” Hanefeldt wrote. 

Bishop Hanefeldt is bishop of the Diocese of Grand Island in the state of Nebraska.

Quote

“No one has the right to destroy pre-born human life, yet we have legalized it as a ‘right’ in this country!” he continued. “This is an unspeakable offense against the ‘Lord and giver of life,’ yet we have grown numb to the magnitude of this evil.”

Since 1973, about 62 million unborn babies have been killed in abortions. 
...
Hanefeldt said such extreme disregard for innocent human life is destroying society.

“Legalized abortion is bringing about the fall of this nation!” he wrote. “Far from being ‘one nation under God,’ we have become a nation in chaos.”

The article goes into politics, which I want to avoid in this thread.  Instead, I wonder what your thoughts are about abortion as the “preeminent evil in our culture.”  I feel that we as a society have come a long way in advancing and refining and improving our approach to race and gender issues.  Things that were previously enshrined in law (Jim Crow laws, lack of suffrage) have been changed.  But abortion - specifically, the elective killing of babies in utero - was generally legalized in 1973.

In the 18th and 19th centuries, I think it could be said that the "preeminent evil in our culture" was slavery.  Now, is it abortion?  And is it in our collective moral "blind spot," much in the same way slavery was for our ancestors?

Thanks,

-Smac

 

[Calm]

I think poverty is a greater evil than abortion.  You want to drop abortions significantly, work on poverty. 
 

73% of those requesting abortions cited financial reasons. 
 

https://www.bmj.com/content/367/bmj.l6424/rr

Quote

 75% of women requesting abortion in the US are in poverty or in the low income bracket(7). The poorest 12% of women account for almost 50% of abortions and the poorest 30% for 75% of abortions(8). 

https://www.guttmacher.org/infographic/2016/us-abortion-patients
 

Edited October 6, 2020 by Calm

[Ahab]

I would say abortion is simply a symptom of the overall encompassing even bigger problem of pride.  Pride is the biggest problem of our generation and probably most every other generation as well.

It is because of pride that people say and think things that do not help them to become like Jesus and our Father in heaven, and to say and think they are better than them.

[Storm Rider]

I will avoid any discussion on slavery. It has been a practice from the very beginning of human civilizations and it only became evil in the last couple hundred years. 

I am more in agreement with Bishop Hanefeldt and I cannot really think of anything more evil than abortion - particularly when it is so often a choice out of convenience and unwillingness to accept the consequences of our choices. 

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

I will avoid any discussion on slavery

No, you didn’t.

Edited October 6, 2020 by Calm

[Duncan]

Just now, Storm Rider said:

I will avoid any discussion on slavery. It has been a practice from the very beginning of human civilizations and it only became evil in the last couple hundred years. 

I am more in agreement with Bishop Hanefeldt and I cannot really think of anything more evil than abortion - particularly when it is so often a choice out of convenience and unwillingness to accept the consequences of our choices. 

what if someone is raped? or incest? not everyone who has an abortion was going out and having relations with people. We had a GA here 18 months ago? his wife had 3 D&C's, she spoke on the subject and said it's so private and awful but sometimes medically you have no other option. I wouldn't condemn someone for having an abortion. I doubt they wanted one in the first place.

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

No, you didn’t.

That was a statement.  As of this moment he hasn't discussed his perspective with any of us in this thread.

 

the action or process of talking about something in order to reach a decision or to exchange ideas.

"the proposals are not a blueprint but ideas for discussion"

a conversation or debate about a certain topic.

[smac97]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

I think poverty is a greater evil than abortion.  

That's an astute observation.  But poverty, in terms of both definition and causality, seems far more abstract, relative and subjective.  

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

You want to drop abortions significantly, work on poverty. 

73% of those requesting abortions cited financial reasons. 

https://www.bmj.com/content/367/bmj.l6424/rr

https://www.guttmacher.org/infographic/2016/us-abortion-patients
 

From this article:

Quote

As the journal recognises doctors tend to come from affluent backgrounds and thus can fail to empathise and relate to women who literally have to “choose” between abortion and sufficient financial resources to survive or continue the pregnancy with a precarious and uncertain future. This may be inconceivable for the privileged but the evidence suggests that this is a reality for many, if not the vast majority of women who seek termination of pregnancy(3,4). 75% of women requesting abortion in the US are in poverty or in the low income bracket(7). The poorest 12% of women account for almost 50% of abortions and the poorest 30% for 75% of abortions(8). 
...
7. https://www.guttmacher.org/infographic/2016/us-abortion-patients
8. https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publications/2019/demo...

And here:

Quote

Women getting abortions today are far more likely to be poor than those who had the procedure done 20 years ago.

Half of all women who got an abortion in 2014 lived in poverty, double the share from 1994, when only about a quarter of the women who had abortions were low-income, according to the Guttmacher Institute, a research group that supports abortion rights and conducts a national survey of abortion patients every six years.

The abortion rate has declined by nearly 40 percent since the mid-1990s. But the United States still has a higher rate of unplanned pregnancy than many other developed countries, and a growing share of women who respond by having an abortion are impoverished.

Nevertheless, I'm not sure "poverty" forms a moral/ethical justification for abortion.  We wouldn't condone slavery on the basis.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, Duncan said:

what if someone is raped? or incest? not everyone who has an abortion was going out and having relations with people. We had a GA here 18 months ago? his wife had 3 D&C's, she spoke on the subject and said it's so private and awful but sometimes medically you have no other option. I wouldn't condemn someone for having an abortion. I doubt they wanted one in the first place.

Abortion at the most basic level is a means or way to kill a person, and while I agree that it is sometimes necessary to kill a person it should not be thought of or discussed as if it is simply a medical procedure.

People who consider having an abortion should seriously consider what they are considering.  Killing a person, or having a person killed  And then they should seriously consider whether or not they should do that.

[Fether]

Getting rid of poverty may lessen abortions, but it won’t fix the main issue. That abortion is widely accepted as a moral decision to make

[MiserereNobis]

In January, Pope Francis met with several US Bishops in the Vatican and discussed some social and political issues. There's an article about it here.

Some excerpts:

Quote

Protecting human life is the "preeminent" social and political issue, Pope Francis said, and he asked the head of the U.S. bishops' Committee for Pro-Life Activities to convey his support to the pro-life community.

Archbishop Joseph F. Naumann of Kansas City, Kansas, chairman of the bishops' committee, told Catholic News Service Jan. 16 that the pope agreed with the U.S. bishops "identifying the protection of the unborn as a preeminent priority."

"His response to that was, 'Of course, it is. It's the most fundamental right,'" Archbishop Naumann recalled the pope saying. "He said, 'This is not first a religious issue; it's a human rights issue,' which is so true."

I like how he frames it as a human rights issue. Two archbishops go on to explain:

Quote

Archbishop Naumann said that while Pope Francis has "elevated issues like the care of refugees and migrants," he also understands that the situation in the United States is different compared to other countries.

"I think sometimes as he elevates those things, people mistakenly think, 'Well, that means that the abortion issue will become less important,'" he said.

Archbishop Robert J. Carlson of St. Louis told CNS it was "beautiful" when the pope explained why life was the number one, most important issue, "because if you're not alive you can't do anything else."

To add on to this, a bishop clarifies that "preeminent" doesn't mean "the only":

Quote

When the U.S. bishops say, "the right to life is the 'preeminent issue'" in Catholics' political concerns, "that word is carefully chosen," Bishop McKnight said. "Because we want to avoid the perspective or the understanding that it's the only issue -- because it is not."

Here's an interesting way to look at it:

Quote

Catholic voters, he said, need to be aware of a more general tendency or temptation "to get rid of unwanted people," whether they are the unborn or the aged, immigrants or the poor. "There is a certain consistency that is required of us as Catholics."

Being pro-life is in the same category as fighting/advocating for other "unwanteds." This reminds me of what Jesus had to say in Matthew 25:34-36:

Quote

34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me.

Those who are on the fringes, who are poor, who are strangers, who are convicts, who are unwanted, are the ones we should serve.

 

25 minutes ago, Calm said:

I think poverty is a greater evil than abortion.  You want to drop abortions significantly, work on poverty. 
 

73% of those requesting abortions cited financial reasons. 
 

https://www.bmj.com/content/367/bmj.l6424/rr

https://www.guttmacher.org/infographic/2016/us-abortion-patients
 

It is frustrating to me when politicians decry abortion and then also talk about cutting services to the poor. As Bishop McKnight says, we have to be consistent. Pro-lifers cannot argue for the dignity of the human person when attacking abortion, and then turn around and deny that dignity to those that Christ Himself ordered us to serve: the poor, the needy, the outcasts.

[Calm]

45 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Nevertheless, I'm not sure "poverty" forms a moral/ethical justification for abortion

Not making that claim, just saying that not only does poverty have a huge impact on people choosing the abortion, but it has a huge impact on other issues as well.  Lack of education, malnutrition, chronic illnesses, homelessness, crap housing, etc. 
 

I think it is likely the most common as well as greatest common factor among “evils” of cultures. 
 

Whatever is the ultimate cause of poverty is in my view one of the worst evils in the world. I would not be the least surprised to find out that is essentially pride which leads to greed and a desire to dominate others, etc. 

And pride is a result of not loving others as commanded by God. Not obeying God is a result of not loving him as we should. 

Edited October 6, 2020 by Calm

[ksfisher]

27 minutes ago, Duncan said:

3 D&C's

3 Doctrine & Covenants?

[Ahab]

The 2 greatest commandments are to love our Father as much as we can and to love each other as much as we love ourselves, so the worst things we can do are to do the opposite of those 2 things.  

Killing another person with an abortion just to make the parent's own life a little bit easier is about as bad a thing as a person can do.

[Calm]

17 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

It is frustrating to me when politicians decry abortion and then also talk about cutting services to the poor. As Bishop McKnight says, we have to be consistent. Pro-lifers cannot argue for the dignity of the human person when attacking abortion, and then turn around and deny that dignity to those that Christ Himself ordered us to serve: the poor, the needy, the outcasts.

I agree. If one doesn’t want abortions, one needs to provide vastly greater services for families and unwed mothers. When it comes down to abortion vs having food and shelter, some sense of stability for the children one has already given life too, I can understand why many might choose the first. 

If abortion had been somehow removed as an option, not all of those abortions would have corresponded to a living child (some would have been miscarried, other parents would have used abstinence or other forms of birth control to prevent conception), but even 1 million babies require a lot of resources to have a healthy and safe life.  

Adoption support for both parents of the preborn and those adopting to open it up as an option is essential as well if many of those millions of children are going to have homes other than a state facility. 
 

Not being a Catholic nor viewing it as a rejection of God’s sovereignty or commandments for parents to prevent conception in medically safe ways, I think free long term birth control is wise, but I understand the religious objections to it and believe there should be protections for those not wanting to provide it as well as options in place for those who choose to use it. 

Edited October 6, 2020 by Calm

[Rain]

I wouldn't say it is "the" preeminent evil, but may be "a" great evil.

I say "may" because like Duncan, the church even allows for it in cases of rape, incest and medical causes.  If someone is raped and can't mentally deal with having the child and prays and fasts over an abortion I cannot say they have acted evilly. The preeminent evil in this case is the rape. 

I think the preeminent evil is more subtle than that. It effects everyone of us to some extent and others to a great extent.  It is turning away from God.  It is why the first commandment is to love God.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

...............Bishop Hanefeldt is bishop of the Diocese of Grand Island in the state of Nebraska.

I am waiting for the Catholic Bishops of the USA to issue a stand on the embarrassingly high infant mortality rate in the USA.   If they really care about the lives of infants let them speak forcefully about that.  Let them also stop making it a sin to practice contraception.  The LDS Church does not make it a sin to practice family planning via contraception, and does not oppose abortion in cases of incest, rape, or danger to the life of the mother.  It is precisely the Roman Catholic Church which takes the most extreme position on both these matters, which makes it problematic that there are six Catholics and two Jews on the U.S. Supreme Court right now -- with another Catholic waiting in the wings.

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

The article goes into politics, which I want to avoid in this thread.  Instead, I wonder what your thoughts are about abortion as the “preeminent evil in our culture.”  I feel that we as a society have come a long way in advancing and refining and improving our approach to race and gender issues.  Things that were previously enshrined in law (Jim Crow laws, lack of suffrage) have been changed.  But abortion - specifically, the elective killing of babies in utero - was generally legalized in 1973.

In the 18th and 19th centuries, I think it could be said that the "preeminent evil in our culture" was slavery.  Now, is it abortion?  And is it in our collective moral "blind spot," much in the same way slavery was for our ancestors?....................

We have a lot of convenient blind spots in American society, one of the largest being our deliberate lack of awareness that there are more slaves today worldwide than at any time in history.  It is largely invisible to us in the USA only because we do not have the old plantation slavery and slave auctions of the past.  Yet, organized crime owns huge numbers of slaves here and abroad, many of them minors -- who are easily disposable.  Law enforcement generally ignores the problem and refuses to enforce already available statutes on this because it it too fraught with victim unwillingness to cooperate.  Too messy.  So human trafficking continues unabated here and abroad.  The billion-dollar cartels in Mexico make big money from such cross-border human trafficking, along with drug and sophisticated weapons sales.

[Robert F. Smith]

21 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

In January, Pope Francis met with several US Bishops in the Vatican and discussed some social and political issues. There's an article about it here.  ...................

I like how he frames it as a human rights issue. Two archbishops go on to explain:

To add on to this, a bishop clarifies that "preeminent" doesn't mean "the only":

Here's an interesting way to look at it:

Being pro-life is in the same category as fighting/advocating for other "unwanteds." This reminds me of what Jesus had to say in Matthew 25:34-36:

Those who are on the fringes, who are poor, who are strangers, who are convicts, who are unwanted, are the ones we should serve.

It is frustrating to me when politicians decry abortion and then also talk about cutting services to the poor. As Bishop McKnight says, we have to be consistent. Pro-lifers cannot argue for the dignity of the human person when attacking abortion, and then turn around and deny that dignity to those that Christ Himself ordered us to serve: the poor, the needy, the outcasts.

Amen!!  We certainly need a sense of proportion.  Our infant mortality rate in the USA is like some third world country.  Women and children shelters are closing for lack of funds.

Every pregnant woman in America should have full access to pre- and post-natal care.  Why are we so stingy?  Let em eat cake?

[juliann]

This is question begging.  It depends on the what and when of life. Until we decide when the "soul" enters the body, no one is really on the same page.  The LDS church does not consider it murder which is telling. (Not talking about late term abortion of viable babies, of course.)

[The Nehor]

The number of abortions has been falling in both per capita and absolute numbers every year since 1998.

To be the preeminent evil I think the threat should be growing instead of slowly fading away.

I would be glad to see abortion ended or only used in fringe cases but I would prefer that to come from an abiding and widespread respect for life. I would argue this is best cultivated by a culture that values everyone. Too often when I hear people angrily fighting abortion I think of the kids I tried to help when volunteering with kids trapped in the system. Do we value their lives? The lives of the homeless? The lives of the insane? I would argue if we start there a more wide-ranging respect for life can emerge.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

In the 18th and 19th centuries, I think it could be said that the "preeminent evil in our culture" was slavery.  Now, is it abortion?  And is it in our collective moral "blind spot," much in the same way slavery was for our ancestors?

Thanks,

-Smac

 

I think it depends on what he meant by "preeminent".   Does he mean it is the worst evil in the world today?  Is he saying that it statistically happens more than any other evil?  

[MiserereNobis]

17 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

which makes it problematic that there are six Catholics and two Jews on the U.S. Supreme Court right now

A tad anti-Catholic and anti-Semitic, perhaps..?

[Duncan]

47 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Abortion at the most basic level is a means or way to kill a person, and while I agree that it is sometimes necessary to kill a person it should not be thought of or discussed as if it is simply a medical procedure.

People who consider having an abortion should seriously consider what they are considering.  Killing a person, or having a person killed  And then they should seriously consider whether or not they should do that.

which is why it isn't up to us, I read in 3 Nephi God killed a lot of people, wiped out Noah unrepentant fellow citizens, it is sad but it happens and it isn't up to either of us

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, Duncan said:

which is why it isn't up to us, I read in 3 Nephi God killed a lot of people, wiped out Noah unrepentant fellow citizens, it is sad but it happens and it isn't up to either of us

I think you mean whether or not we kill another person should not be up to us.  And if that is what you meant, then we agree. 

I don't think we should ever choose to kill another person, always leaving that decision up to God and the light of God we have within us. 

Only God should determine when someone should leave this world, or not come into it.  

We all know death is not the end of life, and that life doesn't begin but merely continues.  But until God says otherwise we're supposed to try to help take care of each other, wherever we go or may be.

[MiserereNobis]

29 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I am waiting for the Catholic Bishops of the USA to issue a stand on the embarrassingly high infant mortality rate in the USA.

From the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops:

Quote

Catholic health care ministry witnesses to the sanctity of life “from the moment of conception until death.” The Church’s defense of life encompasses the unborn and the care of women and their children during and after pregnancy. The Church’s commitment to life is seen in its willingness to collaborate with others to alleviate the causes of the high infant mortality rate and to provide adequate health care to mothers and their children before and after birth.

From a scholarly study on denomination and infant mortality rates:

Quote

Overall, we find that that counties with a greater share of Catholic churches exhibit lower rates of infant mortality.