Catholic Bishop: Abortion Is the 'Preeminent Evil in Our Culture.

[Ahab]

5 minutes ago, smac97 said:

No, I am arguing very much against that idea.  I think men have as much of a "voice" in the elective killing of babies in utero as they do about any other social issue.

Thanks,

-Smac

Well, okay, but that can get into some more complex discussions.  Better to just stick to one issue at a time, and in this thread the issue is about abortion.  

I don't feel exactly the same way about other social issues, even issues that are closely related to abortion.  Like the pill women take to try to prevent pregnancy, for example. Considering the fact that in this world there are women and men who choose to have sexual relations even when they are not legally and lawfully married to each other I would be okay with a woman taking that pill even if the man she had sex with did not want her to take it.  That she should have the right to say No to pregnancy even if the man wanted or was okay with a Yes.  And that would be because they were not legally and lawfully married, when in that case they should both be in agreement before deciding on that issue.  But anyway, that is a separate but related issue and we do not needs to get into that in this thread.

[juliann]

14 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I am not doing that.  "Like unto {murder}" does not mean "exactly synonymous with murder." 

The passage I quoted differentiates between murder ("kill{ing}") and things that are "like unto" murder, though not synonymous with it.  I am concerned that some elective abortions may fall within that category.  And I do not seem to be alone in that perspective.  Consider this article on abortion in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism (written by . . . a woman) :

 

Strawman.  There is only one reason to keep bringing up murder and that is to bring it closer to an unforgiveable sin. But murder is not a "moral" sin as abortion has been designated. All you are doing is making a sliding scale of moral sin. Yours aren't as bad. 

I have sat through too many church lessons where I knew women who had abortions who had to sit through this self-righteous, judgmental, CRAP. Just so those who sins aren't as bad can feel superior they haven't done that. 
 

Tell me when the soul enters the body. Then tell women how to be forgiven of this sin and what that feels like when you are. Have you ever even spoken to such a woman?  

[juliann]

5 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I'm obviously pro-life, so I hope no-one misconstrues my comments here in a pro-choice way. While it does take both a man and a woman to make a baby, the woman deals with the baby WAY more than the man. 9 months of pregnancy and labor. Then let's compare the number of single moms to single dads. For whatever reason (biological, social, etc), woman raise children alone much more than men do.

I'm just objecting to the statement that men are involved just as much as women.

Thank you. None of this should be construed as approval of abortion, either. 

 

[smac97]

4 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Well, okay, but that can get into some more complex discussions.  Better to just stick to one issue at a time, and in this thread the issue is about abortion.  

Well, I brought it up because some here seek to silence or disparage the value of the viewpoint of men on the issue of abortion, solely because that viewpoint is held by a male.  I don't think that is right.  I brought up the disparate gender numbers in the military as an example of how women are fully entitled to speak about the military even though they are vastly underrepresented in it.

4 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I don't feel exactly the same way about other social issues, even issues that are closely related to abortion.  Like the pill women take to try to prevent pregnancy, for example.

I have some concerns about abortifacients, but otherwise have no problem with contraceptives.

4 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Considering the fact that in this world there are women and men who choose to have sexual relations even when they are not legally and lawfully married to each other I would be okay with a woman taking that pill even if the man she had sex with did not want her to take it. 

Sure.  It's her body.

But if and when she gets pregnant, then another body - another life - is involved.

4 minutes ago, Ahab said:

That she should have the right to say No to pregnancy even if the man wanted or was okay with a Yes. 

If she doesn't want to get pregnant, that is certainly her right.  But if she does get pregnant, then there is another life involved.  The life of the child.  That changes the calculus for me.

4 minutes ago, Ahab said:

And that would be because they were not legally and lawfully married, when in that case they should both be in agreement before deciding on that issue.  But anyway, that is a separate but related issue and we do not needs to get into that in this thread.

Okay.

Discussions about abortion often seem to overlook the humanity of the child.  I think that should be one of the primary considerations.

Thanks,

-Smac

[juliann]

7 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Spare me the board nannying lecture.  If you have a substantive response, I'm all ears.  If all you're going to do is hector me (again), then no thanks.

And baby boys are the victims of elective abortion.

So I guess all this gender-based "Shut up you have no right to speak, or even have an opinion on, this issue" stuff doesn't work out too well, huh?

 

Tell me when that boy soul entered the body that was aborted.

Then tell me if you think those spirits who missed your deadline have lost their chance for a mortal body. 

[juliann]

1 minute ago, smac97 said:

 

Discussions about abortion often seem to overlook the humanity of the child.  I think that should be one of the primary considerations.

Thanks,

-Smac

When does a fetus become a child with a soul? Why does the church allow for abortion in certain circumstances. Do our leaders overlook the humanity of the child? 

[smac97]

6 minutes ago, juliann said:

Quote

I am not doing that.  "Like unto {murder}" does not mean "exactly synonymous with murder." 

The passage I quoted differentiates between murder ("kill{ing}") and things that are "like unto" murder, though not synonymous with it.  I am concerned that some elective abortions may fall within that category.  And I do not seem to be alone in that perspective.  Consider this article on abortion in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism (written by . . . a woman) :

Strawman. 

Nope.

6 minutes ago, juliann said:

There is only one reason to keep bringing up murder and that is to bring it closer to an unforgiveable sin.

Nope. 

Tell you what, Juliann.  I'll tell you what I think, and what my motives for speaking are.  I will also let you tell me what you think, and what your motives for speaking are.  I will also not presume to impute motives onto you.  And I'll ask you to reciprocate these things.  How 'bout it?

6 minutes ago, juliann said:

But murder is not a "moral" sin as abortion has been designated.

I've never equated murder with abortion.  

But I reject your statement.  Murder is obviously a "'moral' sin."  It is nothing but a moral sin. 

6 minutes ago, juliann said:

All you are doing is making a sliding scale of moral sin. Yours aren't as bad. 

I am doing nothing of the sort.

I'd protest against you presuming to speak for me, but we all know how that would go down.  Entitlements, indeed.

6 minutes ago, juliann said:

Tell me when the soul enters the body.

I don't know.  I don't think we've been given sufficient information on that question.

6 minutes ago, juliann said:

Then tell women how to be forgiven of this sin and what that feels like when you are.

What are you talking about?

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

3 minutes ago, juliann said:

Quote

Discussions about abortion often seem to overlook the humanity of the child.  I think that should be one of the primary considerations.

When does a fetus become a child with a soul?

I don't know.

3 minutes ago, juliann said:

Why does the church allow for abortion in certain circumstances.

I have some thoughts on that subject, but I decline to present them here.

3 minutes ago, juliann said:

Do our leaders overlook the humanity of the child? 

No.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Ahab]

2 minutes ago, juliann said:

Tell me when the soul enters the body.

That is irrelevant to whether or not abortion is the act of killing a person.  Even if the soul/spirit of the person who will later inhabit a body created or procreated by its parents hasn't entered into that body yet, it is still the act of killing that life that is growing within the Mother's womb because that life is the life of the man and woman who are reproducing and perpetuating their own lives in the life of that baby.  It is alive, and killing it will end that life within the womb of the Mother's body.

2 minutes ago, juliann said:

Then tell women how to be forgiven of this sin and what that feels like when you are.

Just as with any other sin, forgiveness comes because of the grace of God and others who no longer wish the person who sinned to suffer for committing that sin.  And when a person feels forgiven they feel appreciation for their realization that they won't needs to suffer for that sin as long as they do not commit that sin again.  They feel free to move on with an assurance that their previous sin will not hold them back, as if they have a clean slate where that sin is concerned.  Still with a memory that they committed that sin, but free from guilt and with a sense of appreciation for being forgiven.

2 minutes ago, juliann said:

Have you ever even spoken to such a woman?  

Yes.  Many.  And many men who have committed sins too.

[smac97]

6 minutes ago, juliann said:

Quote

Spare me the board nannying lecture.  If you have a substantive response, I'm all ears.  If all you're going to do is hector me (again), then no thanks.

And baby boys are the victims of elective abortion.

So I guess all this gender-based "Shut up you have no right to speak, or even have an opinion on, this issue" stuff doesn't work out too well, huh?

Tell me when that boy soul entered the body that was aborted.

Then tell me if you think those spirits who missed your deadline have lost their chance for a mortal body. 

You aren't discussing.  You are ranting.

Men have as much a right to have an opinion about abortion, and to express that opinion, as women.

-Smac

[juliann]

1 minute ago, smac97 said:

 

 

I don't know.  I don't think we've been given sufficient information on that question.

 

Then why are you speaking as if you do know that all abortion involves "a child." You haven't answered my question, if you think all fetuses are a child with a soul (which you imply by saying "the humanity of the child") what happens to those souls who get the short straw and never get sent to earth for a body? 

You can avoid it all you want, but everything said about abortion is question begging until you state your position on the beginning of life/soul. I greatly respect Catholics for having the courage to speak their views loud and clear on this (even if I don't agree in all circumstances.)

[juliann]

8 minutes ago, smac97 said:

You aren't discussing.  You are ranting.

Men have as much a right to have an opinion about abortion, and to express that opinion, as women.

 

The 'ol "I discuss, YOU rant."  More effective if you add hysterical and emotional. Just sayin'....

Sure you can have an opinion. It just doesn't carry any weight when it comes to the biological realities of being a woman.

[smac97]

10 minutes ago, juliann said:

Quote

I don't know.  I don't think we've been given sufficient information on that question.

Then why are you speaking as if you do know that all abortion involves "a child."

Erring on the side of caution.  If a fetus is just a clump of cells, and nothing more, then getting rid of it would be no more morally problematic than trimming your fingernails or excising a tumor.  And yet the Church denounces elective abortion.  Why is that?  How is it that abortion has a moral component?  

Do you similarly rail against General Authorities - those dastardly men - when they speak about abortion?  Or is it just the males on this board who get to enjoy your vituperation?

Quote

You haven't answered my question,

Yeah.  I don't answer to you.  I get to choose the scope of my participation in this thread.  

Quote

if you think all fetuses are a child with a soul (which you imply by saying "the humanity of the child") what happens to those souls who get the short straw and never get sent to earth for a body? 

Again, I have some thoughts on this subject, but I decline to share them here.

Quote

You can avoid it all you want, but everything said about abortion is question begging until you state your position on the beginning of life/soul.

Poppycock.  

Again, do you rail against the General Authorities about such things?  Do you accuse them of "question begging" until they state their position "on the beginning of life/soul?"

Quote

I greatly respect Catholics for having the courage to speak their views loud and clear on this (even if I don't agree in all circumstances.)

I also greatly respect the General Authorities of the Church of Jesus Christ for speaking on this issue.  Do you?

If GAs can condemn elective abortion without first giving a definitive statement as to "the beginning of life/soul" then why can't I?

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited October 7, 2020 by smac97

[Ahab]

6 minutes ago, juliann said:

Then why are you speaking as if you do know that all abortion involves "a child." You haven't answered my question, if you think all fetuses are a child with a soul (which you imply by saying "the humanity of the child") what happens to those souls who get the short straw and never get sent to earth for a body? 

You can avoid it all you want, but everything said about abortion is question begging until you state your position on the beginning of life/soul. I greatly respect Catholics for having the courage to speak their views loud and clear on this (even if I don't agree in all circumstances.)

Life does not begin.  Life is perpetuated as each kind of being reproduces itself, however any kind of being does it. The error many scientists make is presuming there is or ever has been a beginning to life.

[smac97]

3 minutes ago, juliann said:

The 'ol "I discuss, YOU rant."  More effective if you add hysterical and emotional. Just sayin'....

I'm happy to discuss substantive points made.  Your rants, not so much.

3 minutes ago, juliann said:

Sure you can have an opinion. It just doesn't carry any weight when it comes to the biological realities of being a woman.

You weigh opinions not on their merits, but solely on the gender of the individual holding them.

Duly noted and preserved for future reference.

-Smac

Edited October 7, 2020 by smac97

[Ahab]

3 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Erring on the side of caution.  If a fetus is just a clump of cells, and nothing more, then getting rid of it would be no more morally problematic than trimming your fingernails or excising a tumor.  And yet the Church denounces elective abortion.  Why is that?  How is it that abortion as a moral component?  

Do you similarly rail against General Authorities - those dastardly men - when they speak about abortion?  Or is it just the males on this board who get to enjoy your vituperation?

Yeah.  I don't answer to you.  I get to choose the scope of my participation in this thread.  

Again, I have some thoughts on this subject, but I decline to share them here.

Poppycock.  

Again, do you rail against the General Authorities about such things?  Do you accuse them of "question begging" until they state their position "on the beginning of life/soul?"

I also greatly respect the General Authorities of the Church of Jesus Christ for speaking on this issue.  Do you?

If GAs can condemn elective abortion without first giving a definitive statement as to "the beginning of life/soul" then why can't I?

Thanks,

-Smac

Let's go get some ice cream together.  Looks to me like somebody may need something to help him cool down.

[smac97]

I find it unfortuate that discussions about abortion so often end up with bullying tactics.

I also find it unfortunate that some women seem to feel that men are not entitled to have or express an opinion about abortion, based solely on the fact that they are men.

Just sayin'...

Thanks,

-Smac

[juliann]

5 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I'm happy to discuss substantive points made.  Your rants, not so much.

You weigh opinions not on their merits, but solely on the gender of the individual holding them.

 

It is a difficult era for men who are no longer able to convincing tell women how to be women. If you want to discuss the biology of womanhood, go to medical school if you want an equal opinion.  And it is the SEX of the individual not gender. 

[smac97]

3 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Let's go get some ice cream together.  Looks to me like somebody may need something to help him cool down.

I'll own that.  I get irritated with efforts to silence or shame men for having and expressing opinions about abortion.

My position is essentially identical to the longstanding position of the Church.  It's disappointing to get hectored by other members of the Church for holding that position.  It's also disappointing because that hectoring seems to be based purely on my gender.

Thanks,

-Smac

[MiserereNobis]

14 minutes ago, juliann said:

When does a fetus become a child with a soul? Why does the church allow for abortion in certain circumstances. Do our leaders overlook the humanity of the child? 

This has perplexed me, too, about the LDS position. If there is another life involved (the unborn child's), then why is it ok to end that life because of the father's sin (rape)? It seems contradictory.

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I find it unfortuate that discussions about abortion so often end up with bullying tactics.

I also find it unfortunate that some women seem to feel that men are not entitled to have or express an opinion about abortion, based solely on the fact that they are men.

Just sayin'...

Thanks,

-Smac

Nothing new here.  When people don't agree they will usually find some way to let others know they are not in agreement. And supposedly women have the prerogative of changing their mind as much as they want to.

Maybe someday we will all be in agreement on this, but I kind of doubt it.  You can think what you want but everyone else is free to think what they want to think, too.

[smac97]

5 minutes ago, juliann said:

Quote

I'm happy to discuss substantive points made.  Your rants, not so much.

You weigh opinions not on their merits, but solely on the gender of the individual holding them.

It is a difficult era for men who are no longer able to convincing tell women how to be women.

It is a difficult era for women who, having overcome sexism and reached parity with men in many ways, then want to resort to their own brand of sexism by declaring the opinions of some to be lesser or invalid solely because those some are male.

You aren't the first to try this.  You won't be the last.  It is, nevertheless, disappointing to see you try it.

5 minutes ago, juliann said:

If you want to discuss the biology of womanhood, go to medical school if you want an equal opinion.  

Are women required to "go to medical school" prior to "discuss{ing} the biology of womanhood?"  I doubt it.

Double standards.  Gotta love 'em.

5 minutes ago, juliann said:

And it is the SEX of the individual not gender. 

Do you likewise grouse about the Proclamation's use of "gender?"

Thanks,

-Smac

[Meadowchik]

25 minutes ago, smac97 said:

You aren't discussing.  You are ranting.

Men have as much a right to have an opinion about abortion, and to express that opinion, as women.

-Smac

Hmmm, not sure about that if abortion regulation only targets women. 

If abortion is truly the preeminent evil of the modern world, then lobby for mandated vasectomies. They can be reversed, and sperm can be frozen. 

Problem solved. Are you willing to sign on for yourself and all other men?

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, MiserereNobis said:

This has perplexed me, too, about the LDS position. If there is another life involved (the unborn child's), then why is it ok to end that life because of the father's sin (rape)? It seems contradictory.

I think it's because (some people think) nobody should have the right to force another person to become a parent, which would be the end result of a woman being raped if she was impregnated, or of a man being raped if he fertilized his rapist's egg.  I sympathize with that feeling and would only advise any rape victim to consult with God on the issue before determining to end the life of that child who would be a reproduction of its parents.

[smac97]

3 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Nothing new here. 

Indeed.  This isn't the first time I've experienced board nannies here trying to silence the expression of opinions they dislike.

3 minutes ago, Ahab said:

When people don't agree they will usually find some way to let others know they are not in agreement.

We can do that easily.  "I disagree with you, and here's why..."

Instead, what's happening on this thread is an attempt to silence the expression of viewpoints based solely on the gender of the holder of those viewpoints.

What's happening here is Person A (the person trying to censor speech they dislike) is presuming to speak on behalf of Person B.

What's happening here is Person A distorting and mispresenting what Person B is saying.

What's happening here is Person A insisting that Person B go an get a medical degree before presuming to have an opinion and speak about abortion (though women - including Person A - are apparently free to have an opinion and speak about abortion without such a degree).

Thanks,

-Smac