Catholic Bishop: Abortion Is the 'Preeminent Evil in Our Culture.

[Duncan]

48 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

3 Doctrine & Covenants?

 Dilation and Cutterage

[Duncan]

8 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I think you mean whether or not we kill another person should not be up to us.  And if that is what you meant, then we agree. 

I don't think we should ever choose to kill another person, always leaving that decision up to God and the light of God we have within us. 

Only God should determine when someone should leave this world, or not come into it.  

We all know death is not the end of life, and that life doesn't begin but merely continues.  But until God says otherwise we're supposed to try to help take care of each other, wherever we go or may be.

which is why abortion is so personal and I am not involved and I wouldn't dare ask someone why it happened or be judgy about it

[Rain]

2 minutes ago, Duncan said:

 Dilation and Cutterage

One thing to be aware of is that not all D&Cs are abortion. Some are done after miscarriages.  Some to determine and treat causes of heavy bleeding.

[Ahab]

Just now, Duncan said:

which is why abortion is so personal and I am not involved and I wouldn't dare ask someone why it happened or be judgy about it

I might ask why and make some determinations about whether or not I would have done the same thing someone else did in particular circumstances, but yes I too know it is up to God to make the final judgment.

[smac97]

38 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I am waiting for the Catholic Bishops of the USA to issue a stand on the embarrassingly high infant mortality rate in the USA.   If they really care about the lives of infants let them speak forcefully about that. 

I'm not sure there is an "either/or" thing going on.

38 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Let them also stop making it a sin to practice contraception. 

Are they in a position to declare what is and is not a "sin" in the eyes of the Catholic Church?

38 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The LDS Church does not make it a sin to practice family planning via contraception, and does not oppose abortion in cases of incest, rape, or danger to the life of the mother.  It is precisely the Roman Catholic Church which takes the most extreme position on both these matters, which makes it problematic that there are six Catholics and two Jews on the U.S. Supreme Court right now -- with another Catholic waiting in the wings.

Catholics and Jews on SCOTUS are "problematic"?

38 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

We have a lot of convenient blind spots in American society, one of the largest being our deliberate lack of awareness that there are more slaves today worldwide than at any time in history. 

Slavery is illegal in the U.S.  It's not in our "blind spot."

38 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

It is largely invisible to us in the USA only because we do not have the old plantation slavery and slave auctions of the past.  Yet, organized crime owns huge numbers of slaves here and abroad, many of them minors -- who are easily disposable. 

Again, this doesn't seem like an either/or scenario.

38 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Law enforcement generally ignores the problem and refuses to enforce already available statutes on this because it it too fraught with victim unwillingness to cooperate.  Too messy.  So human trafficking continues unabated here and abroad.  The billion-dollar cartels in Mexico make big money from such cross-border human trafficking, along with drug and sophisticated weapons sales.

Yes, we need to do better.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Damien the Leper]

37 minutes ago, juliann said:

This is question begging.  It depends on the what and when of life. Until we decide when the "soul" enters the body, no one is really on the same page.  The LDS church does not consider it murder which is telling. (Not talking about late term abortion of viable babies, of course.)

Because we don't live in a theocracy, we also must include the perspective of atheists and secularists who may not believe that the soul exists. 

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I might ask why and make some determinations about whether or not I would have done the same thing someone else did in particular circumstances, but yes I too know it is up to God to make the final judgment.

If you start quizzing someone on their abortion do not be surprised if they never invite you over again.

[smac97]

8 minutes ago, Duncan said:

Quote

I think you mean whether or not we kill another person should not be up to us.  And if that is what you meant, then we agree. 

I don't think we should ever choose to kill another person, always leaving that decision up to God and the light of God we have within us. 

Only God should determine when someone should leave this world, or not come into it.  

We all know death is not the end of life, and that life doesn't begin but merely continues.  But until God says otherwise we're supposed to try to help take care of each other, wherever we go or may be.

which is why abortion is so personal and I am not involved and I wouldn't dare ask someone why it happened or be judgy about it

Would you feel justified in being "judgy" about a person who is holding slaves?

Would you feel justified in being "judgy" about a person who killed a one-month-old baby?

Would you feel justified in being "judgy" about a person who euthanized a comatose elderly person?

Can we just shrug off things like this and say "I am not involved?"

Thanks,

-Smac

[Duncan]

3 minutes ago, Rain said:

One thing to be aware of is that not all D&Cs are abortion. Some are done after miscarriages.  Some to determine and treat causes of heavy bleeding.

I have a weak stomach, so when I see the words "heavy bleeding"

I

have

to go

throw up

🤢

there was a lady in our ward here some years ago, she had a miscarriage and lost a third of her blood, and thankfully she survived and everything worked out

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

If you start quizzing someone on their abortion do not be surprised if they never invite you over again.

For some reason most people I've known have felt comfortable opening up to me to let me know what they think and have done without me needing to ask them a lot of questions, but sometimes I ask some questions too.

So so far so good.  I don't get surprised very often.

[Duncan]

24 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Would you feel justified in being "judgy" about a person who is holding slaves?

Would you feel justified in being "judgy" about a person who killed a one-month-old baby?

Would you feel justified in being "judgy" about a person who euthanized a comatose elderly person?

Can we just shrug off things like this and say "I am not involved?"

Thanks,

-Smac

yes of course

a one-month old baby isn't abortion, that's murder. It wasn't in utero so yes I would feel judgy.

if the person wanted that done why would I care? as long as the Dr. is fine with it, I don't want anyone doing anything against their will

why not? I am not in the Legal or medical profession. 

I don't like rapists getting a slap on the wrist or people who hurt others getting away with it. I can't do anything about that directly but I can vote in people who bring in tougher measures to deal with these situations.

 

Edited October 6, 2020 by Duncan

[Calm]

55 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Let them also stop making it a sin to practice contraception.

Are you requiring them to go against a commandment they believe is from God in order for you to take them seriously?

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Would you feel justified in being "judgy" about a person who is holding slaves?

Would you feel justified in being "judgy" about a person who killed a one-month-old baby?

Would you feel justified in being "judgy" about a person who euthanized a comatose elderly person?

Can we just shrug off things like this and say "I am not involved?"

Thanks,

-Smac

Are there viable moral reasons for slavery and intentionally killing a one month old like there may for abortion in the context of this discussion such as rape, incest, and the health of the mother (since most of us are Saints)?

To the last, I would say no. I am not against all forms of euthanasia. If the person is terminal and experiencing uncontrollable pain even if not fully aware of it, I likely would view it as appropriate. 
 

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14891-some-coma-patients-feel-pain/

[Ahab]

6 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I have a weak stomach, so when I see the words "heavy bleeding"

I

have

to go

throw up

🤢

there was a lady in our ward here some years ago, she had a miscarriage and lost a third of her blood, and thankfully she survived and everything worked out

Everything worked out, huh.  What happened to that baby who was miscarried?  I sometimes wonder if miscarried babies will be born to some other couple, thereby getting a second chance to be fully born in that way, or whether the miscarried or aborted baby will be resurrected in a baby body and raised to full stature by the first parents.  As someone who seems to know how everything worked out in that situation you described can you offer me some additional insights on that issue?  Or must I keep waiting for further light and knowledge from our Father in heaven.

[Robert F. Smith]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

Are you requiring them to go against a commandment they believe is from God in order for you to take them seriously?

If it is a sin, let them cite the Scriptural warrant.  If it is a lesser sin than abortion (which it is), let them explain why.  Much of Roman Catholic theology is traditional and comes under the heading of the magisterium -- has no actual warrant in Scripture, which is also true of much of Jewish law.  Like the rule of celibacy for priests, it is a policy adopted a thousand years ago, and is not required by Scripture.  In fact, some Roman Catholic priests are not celibate -- have wives and children.  The rule on celibacy could be done away tomorrow and would not have a negative effect on the RC Church at all.

[Calm]

Would you feel the same way about someone demanding the Church removing the abolition of alcohol and smoking before being taken seriously in a  debate over a position?

[Duncan]

8 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Everything worked out, huh.  What happened to that baby who was miscarried?  I sometimes wonder if miscarried babies will be born to some other couple, thereby getting a second chance to be fully born in that way, or whether the miscarried or aborted baby will be resurrected in a baby body and raised to full stature by the first parents.  As someone who seems to know how everything worked out in that situation you described can you offer me some additional insights on that issue?  Or must I keep waiting for further light and knowledge from our Father in heaven.

what happened to the baby that was miscarried, I don't know, ask God. I have wondered that myself, I have no clue. When I say it worked out I meant she didn't die and she recovered enough to have another child, I don't recall how far along she was and as others have said I don't know if the spirit was in the baby yet, I don't know. Like you we all keep waiting and maybe we won't know until the next life

[Robert F. Smith]

26 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I'm not sure there is an "either/or" thing going on.

Jesus often pointed out the hypocrisy of the Establishment rules -- which they frequently used against him.  We should not refuse to address those modern paradoxes which likewise bring shame to religious claims.

26 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Are they in a position to declare what is and is not a "sin" in the eyes of the Catholic Church?

The Conference of Catholic Bishops in this country has frequently addressed major problems or discrepancies in Catholic practice -- one in particular being the extreme danger of priests and bishops molesting children, which has actually bankrupted several dioceses and brought the Church into disrepute worldwide.  They are in a powerful position to lobby the Pope.

26 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Catholics and Jews on SCOTUS are "problematic"?

The USA is majority Protestant, and most lawyers and judges did not go to Ivy League law schools.  Yet only Catholic and Jewish graduates of Ivy League law schools are appointed to that high court?  In a world in which only partisan political appointments are made to that court, it seems problematic to some that only one opinion is allowable.

26 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Slavery is illegal in the U.S.  It's not in our "blind spot."

Actions speak louder than words, Spencer.  We collectively take almost no notice of human trafficking in the USA.  Nor abroad.

26 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Again, this doesn't seem like an either/or scenario.

Yes, we need to do better...............

Ain't gonna happen, counselor.  Not in my lifetime, and not in yours.

[ksfisher]

47 minutes ago, Duncan said:

 Dilation and Cutterage

Got it.  That makes more sense now.

[MiserereNobis]

21 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

If it is a sin, let them cite the Scriptural warrant.  If it is a lesser sin than abortion (which it is), let them explain why.  Much of Roman Catholic theology is traditional and comes under the heading of the magisterium -- has no actual warrant in Scripture, which is also true of much of Jewish law.

Aren't there actions that LDS consider sinful but aren't in your canonized scripture? Like, say, pornography? Or that coffee and tea are bad? I know the word of wisdom is in your scripture, but your "magisterium" has interpreted hot drinks to be coffee and tea. Catholics aren't sola scripture, and neither are LDS. Why do you attack us for having a belief that's not blatantly in scripture (I say blatantly, because the belief can be extrapolated from scripture).

21 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Like the rule of celibacy for priests, it is a policy adopted a thousand years ago, and is not required by Scripture.  In fact, some Roman Catholic priests are not celibate -- have wives and children.

Sure, celibacy is not required by scripture. No right thinking Catholic should argue that it is, because within the Catholic Church there are married priests. But let's clarify that statement. The Catholic Church is made up of 24 Churches. The largest one, and the one that everyone thinks of when they hear "Catholic" is the Latin Church. Priestly celibacy is required in the Latin Church, not as doctrine, but as tradition. The other 23 Churches are Eastern Catholic Churches and they do not require priestly celibacy (bishops, however, are still required to be celibate).

Since Vatican II, married men may be ordained as deacons.

There's also the interesting case of clergy that have converted from the Anglican church, but they require the permission of the pope.

21 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The rule on celibacy could be done away tomorrow and would not have a negative effect on the RC Church at all.

I'm not sure how you could say this. It's a tradition that's over 1000 years old. That's a long time and a lot of precedent.

Edited October 6, 2020 by MiserereNobis

[smac97]

38 minutes ago, Calm said:

Are there viable moral reasons for slavery

I can't think of any.

38 minutes ago, Calm said:

and intentionally killing a one month old

Electively killing a one-month-old, no.

38 minutes ago, Calm said:

like there may for abortion in the context of this discussion such as rape, incest, and the health of the mother (since most of us are Saints)?

I recognize that we have some divergence with our Catholic brothers and sisters on the margins of the abortion issue.  Broadly speaking, the Church condemns elective abortion.  Bishop Hanefeldt spoke of "abortion on demand."

The vast majority of abortions are elective.  There are not medically necessary, nor arising from rape or incest.  So for the sake of this discussion, let's talk about elective abortions not including those circumstances.

38 minutes ago, Calm said:

To the last, I would say no. I am not against all forms of euthanasia. If the person is terminal and experiencing uncontrollable pain even if not fully aware of it, I likely would view it as appropriate. 

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14891-some-coma-patients-feel-pain/

I'll think on that.

Thanks,

-Smac

[MiserereNobis]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Let them also stop making it a sin to practice contraception.  The LDS Church does not make it a sin to practice family planning via contraception

I was thinking about LDS and Catholic families traditionally being large. The reason for Catholics is clear -- prohibition against birth control. So why were LDS families large? I did a bit of poking around and found a website that linked to an article on your church's website that says this (bold mine):

Quote

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints strongly encourages married couples to have children. It is against birth control. In a letter from the First Presidency to bishops and stake presidents, dated April 14, 1969, the Church’s philosophy is expressed: “We seriously regret that there should exist a sentiment or feeling among any members of the Church to curtail the birth of their children. We have been commanded to multiply and replenish the earth that we may have joy and rejoicing in our posterity.

“Where husband and wife enjoy health and vigor and are free from impurities that would be entailed upon their posterity, it is contrary to the teachings of the Church artificially to curtail or prevent the birth of children. We believe that those who practice birth control will reap disappointment by and by.”

That's a letter from the First Presidency. They say that birth control is against the teachings of the LDS church and those that use it will "reap disappointment."

When and how did this change?

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, smac97 said:

The vast majority of abortions are elective.  There are not medically necessary, nor arising from rape or incest.  So for the sake of this discussion, let's talk about elective abortions not including those circumstances.

But you don’t know unless they say of an abortion was elective or not. I assume you wouldn’t be “judge” if it was not electives defined by you (which may be different than someone else).

I believe Duncan was approaching it from that POV. You can’t know without asking if an abortion was elective or not (and in certain groups it is less likely to have been elective).  And since such abortions are traumatic and often very difficult to talk about and private, it makes sense to Duncan and to me not to ask at all.

[Robert F. Smith]

52 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

From the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops:

From a scholarly study on denomination and infant mortality rates:

There is no denying the powerful efforts of the RC Church to make health care widely available.  Some such RC institutions even make sure that care is provided free (St Jude's child care being the  most famous).  I myself have been the recipient of medical care in Catholic hospitals (though I had full insurance coverage).  In fact, I was delivered as an infant in an RC hospital (by a Mormon doctor).

It would be wonderful if the LDS and RC Churches could team up to lobby for a national law in the USA to guarantee pre- and post-natal care for 100% of women and their babies (including those on Indian reservations, and in ICE custody).

It is worth pointing out that "in 1974, Intermountain Healthcare was formed to operate the $60-million chain of 15 hospitals owned by the LDS church as a not-for-profit corporation. This was the start of Intermountain Healthcare’s nationally recognized system. McKay-Dee is the only hospital in the Intermountain Healthcare system with family names."  https://intermountainhealthcare.org/locations/mckay-dee-hospital/hospital-information/history/ownership-and-influential-events/   

My late wife, who was an Advanced Practice Registered Nurse (APRN), spent 23 years working for IHC.  As you may know, Primary Children's Hospital in SLC is part of that IHC chain, and (like St Jude's) provides free care to children -- their motto is "the child first and always."

[Bob Crockett]

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

Instead, I wonder what your thoughts are about abortion as the “preeminent evil in our culture.” 

I agree. 

It is race war upon blacks.  

Joe Biden has been excommunicated by the church over his views on abortion.  In other words, he has been forbidden communion.

But, as a libertarian, I don't think abortion should be legislated against.

Edited October 6, 2020 by Bob Crockett