marineland Posted April 29, 2020 Posted April 29, 2020 This is from Lesson 12 (Religion 250 manual). https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/ldsorg/manual/institute/jesus-christ-and-the-everlasting-gospel-teacher-manual_eng-new.pdf 48 – What does it mean that Jesus healed "all that were oppressed of the devil"? (This phrase may refer to Jesus's miracles of casting out devils as well as to the greatest miracle of all—the spiritual healing that Jesus brought to those oppressed by sin. Point out that although physical healing was an important part of the Savior's ministry, its effects were temporary. What physical healings by the Savior were temporary? Did the healed blind, lame, and demon-possessed people become blind, lame, and demon-possessed again? I'm excluding those who were raised from the dead because they would eventually die due to the natural course of life. Tony 1
CV75 Posted April 29, 2020 Posted April 29, 2020 13 minutes ago, marineland said: This is from Lesson 12 (Religion 250 manual). https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/ldsorg/manual/institute/jesus-christ-and-the-everlasting-gospel-teacher-manual_eng-new.pdf 48 – What does it mean that Jesus healed "all that were oppressed of the devil"? (This phrase may refer to Jesus's miracles of casting out devils as well as to the greatest miracle of all—the spiritual healing that Jesus brought to those oppressed by sin. Point out that although physical healing was an important part of the Savior's ministry, its effects were temporary. What physical healings by the Savior were temporary? Did the healed blind, lame, and demon-possessed people become blind, lame, and demon-possessed again? I'm excluding those who were raised from the dead because they would eventually die due to the natural course of life. Tony I think you answered your own question: the blind, lame, possessed, lepers, etc. all eventually died an thus gave up that physical healing until the resurrection, which is permanent. 4
InCognitus Posted April 29, 2020 Posted April 29, 2020 9 minutes ago, marineland said: Point out that although physical healing was an important part of the Savior's ministry, its effects were temporary. What physical healings by the Savior were temporary? Mortal life is temporary. And while in mortality we have physical pain, sickness, or physical defects. The contrast is between the healing that Jesus provided to those with physical afflictions in mortality (the temporary) to the eternal healing that Jesus provides through his atonement, which is both physical and spiritual in nature. 2
mfbukowski Posted April 29, 2020 Posted April 29, 2020 Casting out devils does not indicate that they will not return. Bad habits are hard to break. What was that song? "Constant cravings always win" That is false, but it can seem so, especially in cases of addiction. "Go and sin no more" is not an assurance that the person has repented permanently, which would destroy their agency.
alter idem Posted April 29, 2020 Posted April 29, 2020 1 hour ago, marineland said: This is from Lesson 12 (Religion 250 manual). https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/ldsorg/manual/institute/jesus-christ-and-the-everlasting-gospel-teacher-manual_eng-new.pdf 48 – What does it mean that Jesus healed "all that were oppressed of the devil"? (This phrase may refer to Jesus's miracles of casting out devils as well as to the greatest miracle of all—the spiritual healing that Jesus brought to those oppressed by sin. Point out that although physical healing was an important part of the Savior's ministry, its effects were temporary. What physical healings by the Savior were temporary? Did the healed blind, lame, and demon-possessed people become blind, lame, and demon-possessed again? I'm excluding those who were raised from the dead because they would eventually die due to the natural course of life. Tony It does seem like an odd thing to say, as it can be misconstrued. I'm assuming, the writer is trying to make a point that spiritual healing was more important than physical healing as they said' '...as to the greatest miracle of all--the spiritual healing that Jesus brought to those oppressed by sin'. I think the writer wants the teacher to impress on their class that while making the blind see and the lame to walk were 'wow' miracles all could see and be amazed by, the more important healing was the kind that couldn't be seen, it was spiritual: the Atonement; the ability to take away the sins of those blessed, transcended this earthly life into eternity, thus it was not 'temporary'. 1
Calm Posted April 30, 2020 Posted April 30, 2020 (edited) I think it is poorly written and like others believe the author likely meant to say something like ‘physical disorders are only temporary afflictions that at most end at death’. They likely didn’t want to be too wordy. Edited April 30, 2020 by Calm 4
Duncan Posted April 30, 2020 Posted April 30, 2020 2 hours ago, marineland said: This is from Lesson 12 (Religion 250 manual). https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/ldsorg/manual/institute/jesus-christ-and-the-everlasting-gospel-teacher-manual_eng-new.pdf 48 – What does it mean that Jesus healed "all that were oppressed of the devil"? (This phrase may refer to Jesus's miracles of casting out devils as well as to the greatest miracle of all—the spiritual healing that Jesus brought to those oppressed by sin. Point out that although physical healing was an important part of the Savior's ministry, its effects were temporary. What physical healings by the Savior were temporary? Did the healed blind, lame, and demon-possessed people become blind, lame, and demon-possessed again? I'm excluding those who were raised from the dead because they would eventually die due to the natural course of life. Tony well, how long is temporary in Jesus' days? what was the average lifetime? everyone that Jesus healed eventually died but everyone that he healed will be resurrected, which is healing. Everyone dies and in the next life free from sickness, disease, blindness, deafness etc.
InCognitus Posted April 30, 2020 Posted April 30, 2020 I've had more than one discussion with a person from another faith about the definition of the word "resurrection" and whether or not the term applied to Lazarus, when he was raised from the dead by Jesus in John chapter 11. The difference of course cuts to the very question raised in this thread. In that chapter Lazarus was raised up by Jesus unto mortal life, but in the final resurrection it will be to immortal life. One is temporary, the other is permanent. 2
katherine the great Posted April 30, 2020 Posted April 30, 2020 5 hours ago, mfbukowski said: What was that song? "Constant cravings always win" That is false, but it can seem so, especially in cases of addiction. "Go and sin no more" is not an assurance that the person has repented permanently, which would destroy their agency. "has always been" (not "always win") 1
Popular Post Hamba Tuhan Posted April 30, 2020 Popular Post Posted April 30, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, InCognitus said: I've had more than one discussion with a person from another faith about the definition of the word "resurrection" ... I was dumbfounded to discover as a missionary that not a single Christian I spoke with actually believed in a literal, physical resurrection. Almost exact conversation I had with an investigator one morning: Investigator: Why would Jesus need a body? Elder Tuhan: Wait, do you not believe the accounts in the New Testament of His literal resurrection? I mean, He invited people to touch Him and see. I: Well, sure, but that was then. ET: So He had a body after his resurrection, but He doesn't now? What did He do with it? I: I don't know. Maybe He keeps it on a hook for when He wants to appear to people? This is in stark contrast to Muslims, who, in my experience, universally believe in a literal, physical resurrection of all people. Interestingly, this belief in the bodily resurrection of humankind, coupled with a belief in the continuance of family life, seems to have informed the accusations of 'sensuality' that fill so much 16th-century Jesuit descriptions of the evils of Islam. If people have bodies and continue to live as families, then <gasp> they might still hold hands, kiss, or even worse! My PhD research left me with a profound sense of how significantly the anti-materialism of the later Greeks hijacked historical Christianity. Every Easter we celebrate an embodied God whose residual wounds could be 'handled' ... but who somehow isn't really physical. One who promised to, in similar manner, raise us from death (the laying down of the body) ... though somehow without bodies. What does it mean, then? I've never got an answer. Edited April 30, 2020 by Hamba Tuhan 5
mfbukowski Posted April 30, 2020 Posted April 30, 2020 1 hour ago, katherine the great said: "has always been" (not "always win") Omigosh. That's very different. Nevermind. 😎 1
Calm Posted April 30, 2020 Posted April 30, 2020 6 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Omigosh. That's very different. Nevermind. 😎 Belongs on the Buddhism thread https://www.songfacts.com/facts/kd-lang/constant-craving 2
mfbukowski Posted April 30, 2020 Posted April 30, 2020 1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said: My PhD research left me with a profound sense of how deeply historical Christianity was hijacked by the anti-materialism of the later Greeks. Every Easter we celebrate an embodied God whose residual wounds could be 'handled' ... but who somehow isn't really physical. One who promised to, in similar manner, raise us from death (the laying down of the body) ... though somehow without bodies. Absolutely right about the pagan Greek philosophy entering Christian theology, primarily through the Neoplatonist, Plotinus. And a transcendent (disembodied) God could not be subject to natural law, even if he was the creator of the natural law, could not be a Father of offspring, would be without passions like mercy or love. The "other side" of transcendence is immanence, and defines the original Hebrew concept of God, and has been restored in the Church of Jesus Christ. I could elaborate on all those claims but hopefully we are all familiar with these concepts. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted April 30, 2020 Posted April 30, 2020 12 hours ago, marineland said: This is from Lesson 12 (Religion 250 manual). https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/ldsorg/manual/institute/jesus-christ-and-the-everlasting-gospel-teacher-manual_eng-new.pdf 48 – What does it mean that Jesus healed "all that were oppressed of the devil"? (This phrase may refer to Jesus's miracles of casting out devils as well as to the greatest miracle of all—the spiritual healing that Jesus brought to those oppressed by sin. Point out that although physical healing was an important part of the Savior's ministry, its effects were temporary. What physical healings by the Savior were temporary? Did the healed blind, lame, and demon-possessed people become blind, lame, and demon-possessed again? I'm excluding those who were raised from the dead because they would eventually die due to the natural course of life. Tony Hi Tony. The reference here is to backsliding. The notion that the effects of miracles are only temporary is not speaking to a temporary cure, in which one simply relapses into sickness or demonic possession, but rather refers to the temporary lift it may give to our attitude -- and the attitude of those around us. It refers, for example, to the Israelites who saw such great miracles during the Exodus, but quickly forgot them and returned to their evil ways. Hugh Nibley spoke of it as the "Nephite disease," in which the Nephites would drift away from the Lord -- instead of keeping their covenants. Jesus said that a wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign (miracles). They typically claim that they would believe, if they saw a miracle. But seeing a miracle is of no value to those who do not have good hearts to begin with. 4
alter idem Posted April 30, 2020 Posted April 30, 2020 This life is temporary of course. But I think of what being healed of a physical ailment would mean to those who suffer from them; it would change their whole life going forward. We have a young friend who was critically, permanently injured in an accident and I think what it would mean for this person to be miraculously healed. We pray for God's will, but also for a miracle. I've never thought of Jesus' physical healings as temporay or fleeting, they surely had a profound effect on the healed person and those around them. In the grand scheme of mortal life, yes, the results were 'temporary ', who needs reminding of that? And how is that important when in the context of mortal existence, by it's very nature, is temporary? Yet, I think those healed by Christ would be overjoyed for physical healing as it would mean the rest of their mortal lives being able to live free of those constraints, as others do, who are healthy and physically strong, and who often take it for granted. Only a small portion of God's children ever get to be miraculously physically healed in this life. Spiritual healing through the miracle of the infinite atonement is available to all and because it can heal our souls, the effects not only heal us in this life but also our life after this life. I think in trying to emphasize the supreme power and importance of spiritual healing, we not forget or minimize the profound blessing of physical healing to the recipients of that in their lives going forward. In my opinion, the op shows that the way this was written was confusing, and could bring some to interpret it as Jesus' miracles of healing were only temporary 'effects' and I'm certain that is not what the writer wanted the reader to get from it. I believe they wanted to convey that Jesus' primary mission was to heal souls, through the Atonement and this healing extends beyond mortality. 1
katherine the great Posted April 30, 2020 Posted April 30, 2020 11 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Omigosh. That's very different. Nevermind. 😎 😂 1
mfbukowski Posted April 30, 2020 Posted April 30, 2020 15 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: I was dumbfounded to discover as a missionary that not a single Christian I spoke with actually believed in a literal, physical resurrection. Almost exact conversation I had with an investigator one morning: Investigator: Why would Jesus need a body? Elder Tuhan: Wait, do you not believe the accounts in the New Testament of His literal resurrection? I mean, He invited people to touch Him and see. I: Well, sure, but that was then. ET: So He had a body after his resurrection, but He doesn't now? What did He do with it? I: I don't know. Maybe He keeps it on a hook for when He wants to appear to people? This is in stark contrast to Muslims, who, in my experience, universally believe in a literal, physical resurrection of all people. Interestingly, this belief in the bodily resurrection of humankind, coupled with a belief in the continuance of family life, seems to have informed the accusations of 'sensuality' that fill so much 16th-century Jesuit descriptions of the evils of Islam. If people have bodies and continue to live as families, then <gasp> they might still hold hands, kiss, or even worse! My PhD research left me with a profound sense of how significantly the anti-materialism of the later Greeks hijacked historical Christianity. Every Easter we celebrate an embodied God whose residual wounds could be 'handled' ... but who somehow isn't really physical. One who promised to, in similar manner, raise us from death (the laying down of the body) ... though somehow without bodies. What does it mean, then? I've never got an answer. I have mentioned this before here, but once I had a discussion with a Jesuit priest who took the hard line straight out of Plato/Plotinus about the "evil" of matter and how God could not possible be material I asked him about the resurrected body of the Savior and asked him if having a body therefore lessened the powers and abilities of the Son as God. He had no answer and just kind of stared at the wall. He didn't invite me back unfortunately but I know my companion at the time did visit him further. 2
bluebell Posted April 30, 2020 Posted April 30, 2020 22 hours ago, marineland said: This is from Lesson 12 (Religion 250 manual). https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/ldsorg/manual/institute/jesus-christ-and-the-everlasting-gospel-teacher-manual_eng-new.pdf 48 – What does it mean that Jesus healed "all that were oppressed of the devil"? (This phrase may refer to Jesus's miracles of casting out devils as well as to the greatest miracle of all—the spiritual healing that Jesus brought to those oppressed by sin. Point out that although physical healing was an important part of the Savior's ministry, its effects were temporary. What physical healings by the Savior were temporary? Did the healed blind, lame, and demon-possessed people become blind, lame, and demon-possessed again? I'm excluding those who were raised from the dead because they would eventually die due to the natural course of life. Tony I would assume they meant that everyone that the Savior healed would still eventually suffer death, so healed eyes would eventually stopped seeing, the lame would eventually stop being able to walk, etc.
Ahab Posted April 30, 2020 Posted April 30, 2020 On 4/29/2020 at 2:57 PM, marineland said: This is from Lesson 12 (Religion 250 manual). https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/ldsorg/manual/institute/jesus-christ-and-the-everlasting-gospel-teacher-manual_eng-new.pdf 48 – What does it mean that Jesus healed "all that were oppressed of the devil"? (This phrase may refer to Jesus's miracles of casting out devils as well as to the greatest miracle of all—the spiritual healing that Jesus brought to those oppressed by sin. Point out that although physical healing was an important part of the Savior's ministry, its effects were temporary. What physical healings by the Savior were temporary? Did the healed blind, lame, and demon-possessed people become blind, lame, and demon-possessed again? I'm excluding those who were raised from the dead because they would eventually die due to the natural course of life. Tony I don't think so and if they didn't that would mean it was permanent, wasn't it. I propose that we change the manual, or our interpretation of the manual, and the sooner the better.
The Nehor Posted May 1, 2020 Posted May 1, 2020 5 hours ago, mfbukowski said: I have mentioned this before here, but once I had a discussion with a Jesuit priest who took the hard line straight out of Plato/Plotinus about the "evil" of matter and how God could not possible be material I asked him about the resurrected body of the Savior and asked him if having a body therefore lessened the powers and abilities of the Son as God. He had no answer and just kind of stared at the wall. He didn't invite me back unfortunately but I know my companion at the time did visit him further. It is something of a difficulty since Paul seems borderline obsessed with a physical resurrection.
mfbukowski Posted May 1, 2020 Posted May 1, 2020 8 minutes ago, The Nehor said: It is something of a difficulty since Paul seems borderline obsessed with a physical resurrection. I think what they believe is a literal resurrection, yet that Christ no longer has a body, or we as the Body of Christ are now mystically his body, perhaps something like transubstantiation. I don't really know.
Hamba Tuhan Posted May 1, 2020 Posted May 1, 2020 37 minutes ago, The Nehor said: It is something of a difficulty since Paul seems borderline obsessed with a physical resurrection. It's a pretty cool doctrine, one I get rather excited about. I suspect Paul understood how radical the Resurrection of Jesus (and the earlier Saints) was in the Greek world that he knew -- and how thoroughly it could have transformed it. 2
theplains Posted May 1, 2020 Posted May 1, 2020 On 4/30/2020 at 6:19 AM, Robert F. Smith said: Hi Tony. The reference here is to backsliding. The notion that the effects of miracles are only temporary is not speaking to a temporary cure, in which one simply relapses into sickness or demonic possession, but rather refers to the temporary lift it may give to our attitude -- and the attitude of those around us. It refers, for example, to the Israelites who saw such great miracles during the Exodus, but quickly forgot them and returned to their evil ways. Hugh Nibley spoke of it as the "Nephite disease," in which the Nephites would drift away from the Lord -- instead of keeping their covenants. Did the demons ever re-enter Mary Magdalene after Jesus cast them out?
Calm Posted May 1, 2020 Posted May 1, 2020 (edited) 29 minutes ago, theplains said: Did the demons ever re-enter Mary Magdalene after Jesus cast them out? I believe Robert is referring to those that saw the healing miracles and for a time were converted, but then fell away for whatever reason. The scriptures refer to some of these people. However, there were the ten lepers...were all of them truly converted? No reason to assume the disease returned after they were proclaimed cleaned, but the physical effect wasn't something that appeared to have an eternal spiritual effect on them, a change of heart. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+17%3A11-19&version=NIV Also John 6 is a pretty good demonstration of how seeing physical miracles (such as the loaves and fishes) is often of a temporary effect. Quote 59Jesus said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum. 60On hearing it, many of His disciples said, “This is a difficult teaching. Who can accept it?” 61Aware that His disciples were grumbling about this teaching, Jesus asked them, “Does this offend you? 62Then what will happen if you see the Son of Man ascend to where He was before? 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64However, there are some of you who do not believe.”(For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray Him.) 65Then Jesus said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has granted it to him.” Peter’s Confession of Faith (Matthew 16:13-20; Mark 8:27-30; Luke 9:18-20) 66From that time on many of His disciples turned back and no longer walked with Him.... https://biblehub.com/bsb/john/6.htm Edited May 1, 2020 by Calm 1
theplains Posted May 1, 2020 Posted May 1, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Calm said: I believe Robert is referring to those that saw the healing miracles and for a time were converted, but then fell away for whatever reason. The scriptures refer to some of these people. However, there were the ten lepers...were all of them truly converted? https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+17%3A11-19&version=NIV 1 of the 10 was healed. But did he fall away and receive his leprosy again and did Mary Magdalene fall away and receive demon-possession again? Edited May 1, 2020 by theplains fix grammar
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