The Nehor Posted April 5, 2020 Posted April 5, 2020 15 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: The choir is singing “Praise to the Man.” YES! Insert my evil laugh here.
Navidad Posted April 5, 2020 Posted April 5, 2020 1 hour ago, mfbukowski said: Remain calm. I said nothing about what you believe. Go back and read it carefully. I'm not going to bother quoting it but you said that Evangelicals believed in " essence". I said there was a problem with that belief, and detailed why. But it is interesting that y'all must have rejected the Nicene Creed. https://www.unitedbethel.com/about/a-brief-anabaptist-mennonite-history/ "The Anabaptists subscribed wholeheartedly to the Apostles Creed and the Nicene Creed. On such fundamental matters as the doctrine of God, the deity of Jesus Christ, the personality of the Holy Spirit, human depravity, the new birth, and the literal return of the Lord Jesus, the Anabaptists were in agreement with the Reformers. " You didn't read far enough down the page from which you took the quote. It didn't take long for the Anabaptists to morph into the various Mennonite branches and the result is also noted on the same page - I quote: "The Anabaptists held that the Church is a God-ordained institution where the Word of God is preached and sustained by brotherly admonition, correction, encouragement, and discipline. The Church is comprised of those who are truly regenerate, committed to mutual accountability, and who voluntarily join the fellowship of believers. Since infants cannot exercise faith and make personal commitments, and since Scripture does not teach infant baptism, the Anabaptists refused to have their babies baptized. They embraced believers baptism, which the Catholics and the Reformers saw as a threat to a cohesive and functional society. Thus the vigorous harassment and persecution that followed." Please note the highlighted and italicized part "They embraced believers baptism" . . . Believers baptism is baptism that is a testimony of a prior conversion - hence baptism of a believer after the fact. This was and is contrary to the Nicene Creed and is one of the reasons for the terrific harassment and persecution of Mennonites from both Catholics and Reformers way back in the 16th century. So yes, the Nicene Creed was rejected. I appreciate your following up on my post. I value the interchange with you.
Navidad Posted April 5, 2020 Posted April 5, 2020 1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said: I would differ with you in this regard: I believe God does not transform himself into those kinds of things. They are only outward signs of God’s presence. Leading us to believe he can transform himself into a burning bush, a pillar of fire, a dove, a wind, a voice, or any other material object would be to deceive us of his true nature, IMO. He is an exalted man with body and parts like us. When we see him, that is what we see. Hi Bernard: Please be patient with me. I thought the LDS believe that the Holy Spirit is indeed a spirit, not an exalted man with body and parts like us. Is that not correct? My only comment about transforming himself was referring to the Holy Ghost/Spirit who, if He is spirit, must transform Himself to be seen by humans in a theophany or hierophany. I wasn't talking about Christ or God the Father transforming themselves, but the Holy Spirit/Ghost. Are you indicating that all three members of the Godhead in LDS theology are exalted men with body and parts like us? I thought the Holy Spirit was the exception. If I am wrong I apologize. I got it wrong again! Won't be the last time! Ha! All the occasions I referred to (burning bush, pillar of fire, shekinah glory, the presence in the ark, dove, etc.) were referring to the Holy Spirit transforming himself to be visible to the human eye. I believe all those instances did not involve Christ or the Father, but the Holy Spirit. Thanks for your patience. 1
Tacenda Posted April 5, 2020 Posted April 5, 2020 (edited) Am I wrong on this, is fulness spelled wrong in the new proclamation? Oh, I see it's been addressed by Scott. Also, did one of the speakers say "colored", referring to people? I could go back and re-listen but thought I'd get it more quickly this way. And something else that bothered me, that Pres. Nelson mentions that we are the people Nephi saw when he saw the Savoir's return. I am worried about how this might affect in the negative a lot of people, especially the youth. Edited April 5, 2020 by Tacenda
Navidad Posted April 5, 2020 Posted April 5, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: I didn't think you did, and did not say that. What I was saying, and what you missed is that normative Christianity (yes there is such a thing) utterly rejects the LDS POV -- and vociferously attacks it as heresy. The FV is about two persons, as different as you and I are different persons, appearing to Joe Smith in the grove in 1820. Normative Christianity is a pagan belief system derived from pagan religion and then justified through complex Greek philosophy completely alien to the Bible. I was joking that your apparent rejection of normative Christianity makes you a good candidate for LDS baptism -- not that I thought for a moment that you would actually consider going along with such a notion -- and you missed the joke. You need to lighten up, Phil. 🤠 - There you go! Light and breezy. Oh, and I still claim that I do represent normative Evangelical Christianity which is a very large Christian (largely Protestant) community, but is not Catholicism, Orthodoxy, or some Protestant groups that are all largely creedal and strictly trinitarian in nature. I have a lot of Latino Pentecostal Christian friends, most of whom are not trinitarian at all. That is why they like the appellation of "Oneness Pentecostals." They are by some accounts the fastest growing faith group in Mexico. The various Baptist groups are a large community and while they are trinitarian, very few, if any are creedal. I can't think of any creedal Baptist groups. Edited April 5, 2020 by Navidad
Kenngo1969 Posted April 5, 2020 Posted April 5, 2020 9 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Am I wrong on this, is fulness spelled wrong in the new proclamation? Oh, I see it's been addressed by Scott. Also, did one of the speakers say "colored", referring to people? I could go back and re-listen but thought I'd get it more quickly this way. And something else that bothered me, that Pres. Nelson mentions that we are the people Nephi saw when he saw the Savoir's return. I am worried about how this might affect in the negative a lot of people, especially the youth. That's the "good" thing about looking to make someone "an offender for a word"! You'll always be successful! 2
Navidad Posted April 5, 2020 Posted April 5, 2020 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: The choir is singing “Praise to the Man.” YES! I turned the sound down! 😇 No I didn't!
bluebell Posted April 5, 2020 Posted April 5, 2020 17 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Am I wrong on this, is fulness spelled wrong in the new proclamation? Oh, I see it's been addressed by Scott. Also, did one of the speakers say "colored", referring to people? I could go back and re-listen but thought I'd get it more quickly this way. And something else that bothered me, that Pres. Nelson mentions that we are the people Nephi saw when he saw the Savoir's return. I am worried about how this might affect in the negative a lot of people, especially the youth. Yes, someone referred to “colored people” but only in that he stated the full name of the NAACP. The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. Why would the youth feel negatively about Pres. Nelson’s statement about Nephi?
MustardSeed Posted April 5, 2020 Posted April 5, 2020 30 minutes ago, Tacenda said: . And something else that bothered me, that Pres. Nelson mentions that we are the people Nephi saw when he saw the Savoir's return. I am worried about how this might affect in the negative a lot of people, especially the youth. I’m curious why this should be a problem. Isn’t this statement simply another way of stating that this is the last dispensation? I don’t hear this as a literal statement. I don’t think the prophet means that Nephi saw my face, not yours. 1
JLHPROF Posted April 5, 2020 Posted April 5, 2020 48 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Am I wrong on this, is fulness spelled wrong in the new proclamation? Oh, I see it's been addressed by Scott. Also, did one of the speakers say "colored", referring to people? I could go back and re-listen but thought I'd get it more quickly this way. And something else that bothered me, that Pres. Nelson mentions that we are the people Nephi saw when he saw the Savoir's return. I am worried about how this might affect in the negative a lot of people, especially the youth.
Kenngo1969 Posted April 5, 2020 Posted April 5, 2020 7 minutes ago, Okrahomer said: Shanghai and Dubai. Amazing. And in the case of the latter, the government of the United Arab Emirates invited us in!!!! 1
The Nehor Posted April 5, 2020 Posted April 5, 2020 10 minutes ago, Okrahomer said: Shanghai and Dubai. Amazing. I broke down sobbing even though I immediately knew that Shanghai was not going to be a conventional temple. 4
Kenngo1969 Posted April 5, 2020 Posted April 5, 2020 37 minutes ago, bluebell said: Yes, someone referred to “colored people” but only in that he stated the full name of the NAACP. The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. Why would the youth feel negatively about Pres. Nelson’s statement about Nephi? Silly Bluebell! Using the same name for the organization that the organization uses for itself? Why, that's just crazy talk! 2
Bernard Gui Posted April 5, 2020 Posted April 5, 2020 12 minutes ago, Okrahomer said: Shanghai and Dubai. Amazing. Well, there it is. 1
Bernard Gui Posted April 5, 2020 Posted April 5, 2020 1 minute ago, The Nehor said: I broke down sobbing even though I immediately knew that Shanghai was not going to be a conventional temple. Yep.
Stargazer Posted April 5, 2020 Posted April 5, 2020 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: Actually, “Praise to the Man” predates “Scotland the Brave,” whose lyrics weren’t written until about 1950. Not talking about the lyrics, actually. The tune is listed as "Scottish folk tune" in the hymnbook. W W Phelps' lyrics do predate the tune, which was probably first played the late 1800s. Phelps originally suggested the tune "Star in the East", but later the hymn was changed to the current tune, a melody based on "Scotland the Brave," in honor of Phelps's Scottish heritage. The tune is modified to match the syllable count of the text. I mentioned this because I hear "Scotland the Brave" whenever I hear this hymn. It's perfectly appropriate, actually. We could call the hymn "Joseph the Brave".
Tacenda Posted April 5, 2020 Posted April 5, 2020 41 minutes ago, bluebell said: Yes, someone referred to “colored people” but only in that he stated the full name of the NAACP. The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. Why would the youth feel negatively about Pres. Nelson’s statement about Nephi? Well it affected my son when he was about to graduate near 2012 and his seminary teacher or it may have been another teacher, told him that the world might end. It affected him negatively. So in that regard it may affect many if they thought the world will end in their lifetimes, it may change their choices and many other things. A lot of people aren't ready for the world to end I guess. Also, thanks for including that 'colored people' is in the title, makes sense I didn't catch that. It just doesn't seem like appropriate wording to me. But now I understand how that speaker was using it.
Bernard Gui Posted April 5, 2020 Posted April 5, 2020 1 hour ago, Navidad said: Hi Bernard: Please be patient with me. I thought the LDS believe that the Holy Spirit is indeed a spirit, not an exalted man with body and parts like us. Is that not correct? My only comment about transforming himself was referring to the Holy Ghost/Spirit who, if He is spirit, must transform Himself to be seen by humans in a theophany or hierophany. I wasn't talking about Christ or God the Father transforming themselves, but the Holy Spirit/Ghost. Are you indicating that all three members of the Godhead in LDS theology are exalted men with body and parts like us? I thought the Holy Spirit was the exception. If I am wrong I apologize. I got it wrong again! Won't be the last time! Ha! All the occasions I referred to (burning bush, pillar of fire, shekinah glory, the presence in the ark, dove, etc.) were referring to the Holy Spirit transforming himself to be visible to the human eye. I believe all those instances did not involve Christ or the Father, but the Holy Spirit. Thanks for your patience. Yes, the Holy Spirit is a spirit, as indicated in his title, but we believe he is in the form of a man. I believe that the instances of divine communication recorded in scripture such as visions, voices, and physical phenomena are manifestations of the Father and/or the Son. The Holy Spirit is for personal revelation. Others my not agree. I think we understand each other better. And thanks for your patience with me. 1
The Nehor Posted April 5, 2020 Posted April 5, 2020 1 minute ago, Tacenda said: Well it affected my son when he was about to graduate near 2012 and his seminary teacher or it may have been another teacher, told him that the world might end. It affected him negatively. So in that regard it may affect many if they thought the world will end in their lifetimes, it may change their choices and many other things. A lot of people aren't ready for the world to end I guess. Also, thanks for including that 'colored people' is in the title, makes sense I didn't catch that. It just doesn't seem like appropriate wording to me. But now I understand how that speaker was using it. Why? The end of the world is a joyous event. It is not the end of life. It is the beginning of what life is supposed to actually be like. 1
bluebell Posted April 5, 2020 Posted April 5, 2020 3 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Well it affected my son when he was about to graduate near 2012 and his seminary teacher or it may have been another teacher, told him that the world might end. It affected him negatively. So in that regard it may affect many if they thought the world will end in their lifetimes, it may change their choices and many other things. A lot of people aren't ready for the world to end I guess. Also, thanks for including that 'colored people' is in the title, makes sense I didn't catch that. It just doesn't seem like appropriate wording to me. But now I understand how that speaker was using it. But why would someone think that being seen by Nephi in a vision means the world is about to end? I guess I’ve never made that connection.
MustardSeed Posted April 5, 2020 Posted April 5, 2020 4 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Well it affected my son when he was about to graduate near 2012 and his seminary teacher or it may have been another teacher, told him that the world might end. It affected him negatively. So in that regard it may affect many if they thought the world will end in their lifetimes, it may change their choices and many other things. A lot of people aren't ready for the world to end I guess. Also, thanks for including that 'colored people' is in the title, makes sense I didn't catch that. It just doesn't seem like appropriate wording to me. But now I understand how that speaker was using it. The name of the church is literally identifying us as those of the last days. This is not news.
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