Update on Story Re: Missing Kids (Daybell)

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

According to what Julie said on the podcast, just remembered, is that they think the church is acting more like a corporation and not the church of Jesus Christ.

Yep, pretty much standard line almost every critic seems to have these days.

Part of that is it is a corporation as it is forced to be by the current government.  You can't have an organization, with buildings to meet in and employees to serve people without being a corporation.  Look at the successful charities.

The question is if the corporation attributes prevent it from also being The Church of Jesus Christ.  For me it doesn't, I find the Gospel just fine among the corporate trappings.  I get that others might not because they are looking for different things when they look for the Gospel.  And if they feel driven to look elsewhere and can find happiness that way, then I bless their choices for them, but don't tell me this is not the Gospel because I can see that it is with my eyes and heart and soul and if they try and destroy the faith and happiness of others for whatever reason, I will try and prevent that.

(just spent several hours answering a letter sent into FairMormon, feeling a little feisty, don't like seeing people in pain)

Edited June 4, 2020 by Calm

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

Yep, pretty much standard line almost every critic seems to have these days.

Part of that is it is a corporation as it is forced to be by the current government.  You can't have an organization, with buildings to meet in and employees to serve people without being a corporation.  Look at the successful charities.

The question is if the corporation attributes prevent it from also being The Church of Jesus Christ.  For me it doesn't, I find the Gospel just fine among the corporate trappings.  I get that others might not because they are looking for different things when they look for the Gospel.  And if they feel driven to look elsewhere and can find happiness that way, then I bless their choices for them, but don't tell me this is not the Gospel because I can see that it is with my eyes and heart and soul and if they try and destroy the faith and happiness of others for whatever reason, I will try and prevent that.

(just spent several hours answering a letter sent into FairMormon, feeling a little feisty, don't like seeing people in pain)

You know what? I'm not the same as I have been. Or am moving on from my old ways. And I'm glad you have found your truth. And I agree with most of what you say. My testimony or parts I should say, are still there. I know without a doubt you eased their pain with your response in the letter. 💕

[Tacenda]

Here is a new youtube of an interview with a woman that worked with Lori and chad Daybell years ago.

 

[alter idem]

19 hours ago, Tacenda said:

According to what Julie said on the podcast, just remembered, is that they think the church is acting more like a corporation and not the church of Jesus Christ.

That was what I got from Chad's 'train' dream he posted on avow a couple of years ago. He didn't believe the church was inspired anymore and prophets today are more like caretakers, I guess, till the supposed real prophets show up. I assume he believes that's people like him and lori. 

[alter idem]

17 hours ago, Calm said:

Yep, pretty much standard line almost every critic seems to have these days.

Part of that is it is a corporation as it is forced to be by the current government.  You can't have an organization, with buildings to meet in and employees to serve people without being a corporation.  Look at the successful charities.

The question is if the corporation attributes prevent it from also being The Church of Jesus Christ.  For me it doesn't, I find the Gospel just fine among the corporate trappings.  I get that others might not because they are looking for different things when they look for the Gospel.  And if they feel driven to look elsewhere and can find happiness that way, then I bless their choices for them, but don't tell me this is not the Gospel because I can see that it is with my eyes and heart and soul and if they try and destroy the faith and happiness of others for whatever reason, I will try and prevent that.

(just spent several hours answering a letter sent into FairMormon, feeling a little feisty, don't like seeing people in pain)

It's interesting how they criticize the church today for being a corporation or being run like one in some aspects, yet they seem unaware how the Prophet Joseph did this too. It's not new, it's an original characteristic of the church. And many criticized him and called him a fallen prophet for it at that time. This accusation against the church is a tired one.

[smac97]

21 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Here is a new youtube of an interview with a woman that worked with Lori and chad Daybell years ago.

 

Her books:

Led by the Hand of Christ: A Woman's Journey to Paradise-and Back (2004):

Quote

"The author describes a near-death experience (NDE) she experienced while having a miscarriage during an ectopic pregnancy"

Through the Window of Life (2005):

Quote

As the world moves closer to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, it seems that the whole earth is in turmoil. In the Bible we find that the Savior himself foretold such events. But we are also told that the Lord’s followers will find refuge from the storm. How will that occur, and where will that happen? In 1999, Suzanne Freeman briefly passed away during surgery before returning to mortality. While in the spirit world, she was taken by the Savior to the Window of Life. In this heavenly window, she was shown scenes of future events and how they will affect us all.

• Natural disasters and warfare will have huge impacts on everyday life.
• The Lord’s followers will be affected, but they will band together against their enemies.
• The righteous will journey to the center of the American continent to build the New Jerusalem.
• Those who are prepared to weather these physical and spiritual trials will be ready to meet their Savior.

Spirit of Liberty (2013):

Quote

We entered a broad corridor with a wide-planked hardwood floor, polished to a high sheen. Voices came from a room off to one side. When we pushed open the door, I saw George Washington standing behind a podium, addressing some of his peers from mortality, including many of the signers of the Declaration of Independence.

Thus began Suzanne Freeman's visit with America's Founding Fathers during a near-death experience. While in the Spirit World, she was shown the tribulations and sacrifices these men and women had faced during their lifetimes as they established the United States of America. She also learned that these valiant leaders still care deeply about America and are concerned about the direction the country is headed.

As Suzanne's visit with the Founders concluded, she was given a vision of America's future-our future. It was made clear to her that while there would be challenging times ahead, America could retain its place as a chosen land if the citizens truly desire it. The Founders pleaded with Suzanne to return to earth and share their message of how we must strengthen our nation before it is too late.

As you read their words, the Spirit of Liberty will grow within your own soul and give you hope that America's future can indeed remain bright.

I wonder how she can disregard the counselof the brethren, such as this (2019 remarks from Pres. Oaks) :

Quote

our canon of scripture contains very little about the spirit world that follows death and precedes the Final Judgment. So what else do we know about the spirit world? Many members of the Church have had visions or other inspirations to inform them about how things operate or are organized in the spirit world, but these personal spiritual experiences are not to be understood or taught as the official doctrine of the Church. And, of course, there is abundant speculation by members and others in published sources like books on near-death experiences.

As to all of these, the wise cautions of Elders D. Todd Christofferson and Neil L. Andersen in earlier general conference messages are important to remember. Elder Christofferson taught: “It should be remembered that not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. It is commonly understood in the Church that a statement made by one leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, not meant to be official or binding for the whole Church.”

In the following conference, Elder Andersen taught this principle: “The doctrine is taught by all 15 members of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve. It is not hidden in an obscure paragraph of one talk.” The family proclamation, signed by all 15 prophets, seers, and revelators, is a wonderful illustration of that principle.

...

We can all wonder privately about circumstances in the spirit world or even discuss these or other unanswered questions in family or other intimate settings. But let us not teach or use as official doctrine what does not meet the standards of official doctrine. To do so does not further the work of the Lord and may even discourage individuals from seeking their own comfort or edification through the personal revelation the Lord’s plan provides for each of us. Excessive reliance on personal teachings or speculations may even draw us aside from concentrating on learning and efforts that will further our understanding and help us go forward on the covenant path.

I question the propriety of publishing NDE books.  There is obviously no vetting procedure.  No way to differentiate truth from imagination or flights of fancy.

Moreover, I can't help but think that genuine sacred experiences are, in almost all instances, not intended for public consumption.  This is particularly in situations where, as here, the author's narrative is both doctrinally unsound/speculative and self aggrandizing.  From an Amazon review of her 2004 book:

Quote

I have never read a NDE book I didn't like - until I read this one. The story is unbelievable, self-serving, and down right ridiculous. It is contrary to everything i have come to understand about visitations to the spirit world. Once she passed through the veil, I found myself rolling my eyes with nearly every turn of the page.

After she left her body she was greeted by the Savior, and she literally fought with Him about leaving mortality. She squirmed and struggled to be released from His grip, What? He had to negotiated with her, promising her she would come back. And then she insisted on knowing how long she would be gone. I found that incredulous! She debated and argues with the Son of God... and "WINS"?!!

Then soon, the hosts of heaven came to greet her because her reputation preceded her. She was a celebrity - the woman who argued with the Savior. She describes people "lining up to shake my hand." (Pg. 63.) They were celebrating her for "the love she showed for her children" (-by arguing with the Savoir). "Thousands" of people came to see her. gathering at an amphitheater to shake her hand. When she met Joseph Smith, he, expressed joy over meeting her. He said, "I wanted to shake the hand of the lady who actually told Christ no." (Pg. 59) Yes - that is in the book!

I was mystified that all of heaven came to adore and give accolades to her. Is that what existence is all about anyway? To receive praise from others for being dedicated Moms?

In one place she describes how Joseph Smith "took a running leap onto the grass beside us and performed a double back flips." And she writes about how the Savior often stopped to engage in physical playground games with the children. First of all - children? I thought spiritual beings were adults. And I thought that those in the spirit world were BUSY! Busy preparing for the Lord's second coming. She describes sleepy towns, people gardening, home cooked meals (Oh, yeah, and when they were finished eating at the Joseph Smith home, Emma snapped her fingers and the food, dishes, napkins all disintegrated into thin air.). This is utter nonsense.

She chatted with Eve, not about the second coming, or one's life's mission, or all the temple work yet to be done. No, they talked about the challenges of nursing twins. Eve explained that she nursed twins at the same time, and assured her it was even more challenging with triplets. (Eye roll.)

I could go on and on.

I have read four or five NDE books recently; at least one was by a non-LDS author. (I am LDS) All of those accounts rang true, were inspiring, uplifting, meaningful, and believable. But this book is, in my view, pure fiction, and of the lowest quality. I think it is a shameful attempt to cash in on the surge of public interest in such books

The author didn't even remembet that she had had a NDE four a long time after her hospital stay. Then when she realized that substantial income can be generated by those who write about their experience, it all started coming back to her.

This entry at By Common Consent includes a number of useful quotes cautioning against improper sharing of sacred experiences:

Quote

From James E. Faust:

Quote

My faith continued to grow as building blocks were added to the cornerstone, line upon line and precept upon precept. There are far too many of these to be chronicled individually; some are too sacred to utter.
James E. Faust, “A Growing Testimony,” Ensign, Nov 2000, 53–54, 59

Richard Nash:

Quote

Be cautious about sharing personal spiritual experiences.
“There are some things just too sacred to discuss,” says President Boyd K. Packer, Acting President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. Such experiences should not be shared, but “harbored and protected and regarded with the deepest reverence” {The Lord has said, “Remember that that which cometh from above is sacred, and must be spoken with care, and by constraint of the Spirit” (D&C 63:64). Trust that the Spirit will prompt you when it is appropriate to share experiences that are deeply personal. Wait for such promptings.}
Richard Nash, “Telling Personal Stories,” Ensign, Sep 2002, 49

Linda Magleby:

Quote

Invite the children to gather in small groups around their teacher. Have the teacher share his or her experience with prayer, and invite the children to share their own experiences, if they have some. (Remind them that some experiences are too sacred to share.)
Linda Magleby, Sharing Time: Heavenly Father Hears and Answers Prayers, Friend, July 2006

 

Anyhoo, she's trying to distance herself from Chad Daybell's weirdness.  She says that Chad said that "The 'call out' is going to happen," meaning that temple-recommend-holding-and-food-storage-having members will be "called out" by the Church and sent to the camps that the Church owns for girls' camps.  Yeah, that's pretty weird.

But then, publishing a book to the world where you say you had an out-of-body chat with Eve about the difficulties of nursing twins also comes across as pretty weird.

I really believe in the hereafter.  I also believe that some of us can sometimes get some glimpses of it (Joseph Smith did, see D&C 137).  But my sense is that sacred experiences should be held close to the vest.  And if the experience is doctrinally speculative and/or self-agrandizing, then take it with a pretty heavy grain of salt.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited June 5, 2020 by smac97

[alter idem]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Here is a new youtube of an interview with a woman that worked with Lori and chad Daybell years ago.

 

Thanks for sharing this. It was interesting. I'm familiar with Suzanne Freeman, I've read her first book and heard her speak about her near death experience.  It's interesting that she talks about the 'call out' that many of the AVOW members believed in, interesting that she says Chad was telling her he didn't want to publish any more books because the 'call out' was going to happen; she puts this back in 2012, and Julie Rowe's book that talked about this exact thing didn't come out for two more years in 2014.  Of course, there's a possibility she is off by two or three years, though.  It makes me wonder if it was being discussed on AVOW at that time.  What I mean specifically, is the idea that they were going to be 'called out' before the tribulations, by the prophet.  That people would have to have a year's worth of food storage, and a temple recommend to be invited, and they would go stay at Girls Camp properties in the mountains that the church owns.  As I recall there were a lot of people at that time sharing their dreams, claiming that they had dreams about the call out.  Some were pretty fanatical about it, didn't want to hear any skepticism at all.  I bet Suzanne is talking about the same kind of fanaticism and zealotry I remember encountering when anyone questioned the 'call out' in online forums. Notice that they are pretty quiet about the 'call out' these days, I think it's a source of embarrassment that it never happened.

Sounds like Chad was a dishonest publisher to work with also.  She had to get an attorney to get her publishing rights back, after he said he wasn't going to publish her books anymore.  Recently, there was something written by Chad (I think it was posted on AVOW) where he came out against Suzanne Freeman, now we know why--she wasn't buying Chad's crap, and it sounds like she saw that he was going out in the fringe (seemingly following Julie Rowe's example) pushing false teachings in the books he was publishing, which she shared concerns with him about.  I've heard that she had some enemies in the Doomsday crowd, and now I can see why.  She was outspoken on things she didn't believe.  Also, she didn't know about Chad's supposed near death experiences.  This supports my own experience;  I've known and been concerned about Chad Daybell and his support for Julie Rowe for six years and it was a surprise to me when I heard the recent claims that he'd been having near death experiences and claimed to have all these special gifts--it was NOT anything he'd admitted publicly before, that I knew about. As I've mentioned before, he supposed 'Train Dream' and his association with AVOW, and it's doomsday group, and his questionable authors were my concerns.

She also criticizes their belief in Multiple Mortal probations and the obvious criticism that it is 'anti-christ' in that it denies the need for Christ's atonement etc and it makes of our Temple ordinances a farce.   From my experience arguing with members who believe in MMP, they are fanatical and zealous in their beliefs. They aren't necessarily part of the doomsday/AVOW group either.  I really think the Church leaders are going to need to speak out against this false belief, the sooner the better.

[Calm]

20 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Here is a new youtube of an interview with a woman that worked with Lori and chad Daybell years ago....

Here are some excerpts:

https://www.eastidahonews.com/2020/06/author-who-worked-with-chad-daybell-says-hes-been-deceived-and-is-calling-on-him-to-do-the-right-thing/?fbclid=IwAR2ex8Aj6GoEHyN3RurRwEMiBS66P1vYVP7015an0J4UWBfQbneCGfsKov8
 

From what I am reading in the reviews, at the end of her book she explains she had not remembered her vision after the NDE, but it came back long after when she put it together from “bits and pieces” as one said. Sounds like a recovered memory which are not reliable imo and outright pure imagination in many cases. 
 

Given the alleged story that so much of heaven, even the big names, were falling over themselves to greet her because she became an instant celebrity when she refused to obey Christ and demanded she be set home to her kids (described as wanting to meet the woman who said “no” to Christ, I thought the problems of the world were a result of too many saying in essence “no” to Christ, can’t imagine why this would be a good thing)...and apparently that level of devotion to her children elevated her above pretty much everyone else, at least for her visit...seems like it was a wish fulfilling dream most likely. 
https://latterdaycommentary.com/2014/04/26/led-by-the-hand-of-christ/

Edited June 5, 2020 by Calm

[Calm]

18 hours ago, smac97 said:

But then, publishing a book to the world where you say you had an out-of-body chat with Eve about the difficulties of nursing twins also comes across as pretty weird.

But not exactly included in the interview, I am guessing or EIN was trying in the article to make her less fringey than her books do...why bother having someone who appears to make up stories )in most people's opinions) as a witness.  Might as well dial up the local psychic in many people's opinions.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Calm

[alter idem]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Here are some excerpts:

https://www.eastidahonews.com/2020/06/author-who-worked-with-chad-daybell-says-hes-been-deceived-and-is-calling-on-him-to-do-the-right-thing/?fbclid=IwAR2ex8Aj6GoEHyN3RurRwEMiBS66P1vYVP7015an0J4UWBfQbneCGfsKov8
 

From what I am reading in the reviews, at the end of her book she explains she had not remembered her vision after the NDE, but it came back long after when she put it together from “bits and pieces” as one said. Sounds like a recovered memory which are not reliable imo and outright pure imagination in many cases. 
 

Given the alleged story that so much of heaven, even the big names, were falling over themselves to greet her because she became an instant celebrity when she refused to obey Christ and demanded she be set home to her kids (described as wanting to meet the woman who said “no” to Christ, I thought the problems of the world were a result of too many saying in essence “no” to Christ, can’t imagine why this would be a good thing)...and apparently that level of devotion to her children elevated her above pretty much everyone else, at least for her visit...seems like it was a wish fulfilling dream most likely. 
https://latterdaycommentary.com/2014/04/26/led-by-the-hand-of-christ/

Yes, I forgot to mention that, suzanne freeman's nde experience was recovered memory.  When I read her book I felt unsettled,  and then, finding out it was 'remembered ' later, I personally don't trust those. But I will say, I heard her recount it in person and I believe she was sincere, I'm just not sure how really happened and what is embellished. 

 I've heard a lot of these stories at the IANDS meetings and imo, she really believes what she’s telling, but she didn't write the book, a ghostwriter did and chad wanted her to make it less lds centric. Given what she shared at IANDS that would be hard to do. 

Hearing her tell that story in.person,  it came across different.  As I recall, she said she didn't want to die and leave her children motherless, and was belligerent, and tried to remain with her body. She was praised for her strong desire to stay in mortality, to remain in a difficult life, for those she loved. Those who she saw in the spirit world were impressed by her sacrifice,  that's what I recall. I've always felt that these experiences really don't translate well when shared. Imo, an  nde is  really meant to be uniquely experienced in a manner, language, concepts presented for the individual alone.  

[Tacenda]

@alter idem @katherine the great @smac97 @Calm    Thanks for your relies! 

[Calm]

@Tacenda, no problem.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Calm

[katherine the great]

18 hours ago, smac97 said:

But then, publishing a book to the world where you say you had an out-of-body chat with Eve about the difficulties of nursing twins also comes across as pretty weird.

 

Not to say that I believe her experience, but I don't find that any weirder than any other type of contact with deity or non earthly figures. Anyone who has had trouble breast feeding (pain, infections, exhaustion) knows that, while trivial to most, is of the utmost importance to the mother experiencing it. To believe that a compassionate female role model shares her own difficulties IMO would be a lovely experience.

[alter idem]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

@alter idem @katherine the great @smac97 @Calm    Thanks for your relies! 

Thank you, and thanks for your participation as well, I appreciate having others I can discuss this with; my family members are mostly tired of the topic.😞

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, alter idem said:

Thank you, and thanks for your participation as well, I appreciate having others I can discuss this with; my family members are mostly tired of the topic.😞

My family aren't even interested, so I appreciate it too.

[Calm]

Too hard for them to keep track of details when they aren’t that interested. 

[Kenngo1969]

I'm interested, but, criminy, for every "answer" that has been found in this case, it seems that the "answer" raises about 1,000 more questions.  I'm curious enough about some things to take the ravenous-dog-on-a-raw-porkchop approach, but with other things ... Goodness gracious!  Wake me when the dust finally settles and we finally have definitive answers to at least some of those thousands of questions.    (I'll wait for the book to come out!)

[bsjkki]

https://twitter.com/jlumfox10/status/1270375275134517248?s=20

They are searching Daybell's home in Rexburg. Twitter link has pics.

 

Edited June 9, 2020 by bsjkki

[bsjkki]

There are three blue tarps out on the ground. I'm no expert and don't know if that is significant.

https://twitter.com/jlumfox10/status/1270385697241722880?s=20

[Tacenda]

11 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

There are three blue tarps out on the ground. I'm no expert and don't know if that is significant.

https://twitter.com/jlumfox10/status/1270385697241722880?s=20

Oh dear, are they looking for bodies? 

[bsjkki]

16 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Oh dear, are they looking for bodies? 

I am sure they are or other evidence. They have a search warrant and a lot of people on site.

[pogi]

On 6/4/2020 at 2:24 PM, smac97 said:

And if the experience is doctrinally speculative and/or self-agrandizing, then take it with a pretty heavy grain of salt.

Thanks,

-Smac

"The Founders pleaded with Suzanne to return to earth and share their message of how we must strengthen our nation before it is too late."

Being chosen by the founding fathers to return to earth to save America, as some sort of last great hope and sole proxy voice for the founding father's message?  To disagree with her is to disagree with the founding fathers and to be a part of destroying America!  No, that's not self-aggrandizing at all!

 

 

Edited June 9, 2020 by pogi

[bsjkki]

Chad Daybell possibly detained.

https://twitter.com/Jilliana_Colina/status/1270414698853236736?s=20

They are towing his car away.

 

Edited June 9, 2020 by bsjkki

[ksfisher]

18 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Chad Daybell possibly detained.

https://twitter.com/Jilliana_Colina/status/1270414698853236736?s=20

They are towing his car away.

 

He's been arrested.  Or at least "taken into custody."  Is there a difference?

https://www.ksl.com/article/46762858/chad-daybell-taken-into-police-custody-as-officers-search-property

[bsjkki]

Bad news but closure. 

https://twitter.com/jlumfox10/status/1270429606730821632?s=20

Being reported human remains have been found.