Elder Gong unveils details of new programs for children, youth

[InCognitus]

14 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I don’t recall a time when the doctrine was ever denied. Do you? “O My Father” has been in the hymnal since long before I was born. 
 

But not a lot has been revealed about Her. So beyond the basic fact of Her existence (as affirmed in the hymn and in the family proclamation)  what has there been to teach about Her, really? Would you have wanted speculation and conjecture? We’ve seen the problems that can cause. 

The Mother in Heaven question is sort of off topic (I suppose), but David Paulsen has a good article on this in BYU Studies 50:1 from 2011, here:  https://byustudies.byu.edu/content/mother-there-survey-historical-teachings-about-mother-heaven

His conclusion (supported by 97 footnotes) in the article is this:

Quote

In this paper we have briefly shown that, historically, there has been substantial discussion and elaboration on the roles and divinity of our Heavenly Mother. Our investigation marshals evidence against some claims that General Authorities and other Church leaders have limited Heavenly Mother’s role to reproduction. It also refutes the suspicion that General Authorities have advocated a position of total sacred silence about her. As Latter-day Saints should be deeply reverent when speaking about any sacred subject, Church leaders may well caution an individual to be respectful of and to avoid teaching unorthodox views about Heavenly Mother. At the same time, we have found no public record of a General Authority advising us to be silent about our Heavenly Mother; indeed, as we have amply demonstrated, many General Authorities have openly taught about her.

While some have claimed that Heavenly Mother’s role has been marginalized or trivialized, we feel that the historical data provides a highly elevated view of Heavenly Mother. The Heavenly Mother portrayed in the teachings we have examined is a procreator and parent, a divine person, a co-creator, a coframer of the plan of salvation, and is involved in this life and the next. Certainly, consideration of these points reinforces several unquestionably important LDS doctrines: divine embodiment, eternal families, divine relationality, the deification of women, the eternal nature and value of gender, and the shared lineage of Gods and humans. Far from degrading either the Heavenly Feminine or the earthly feminine, we feel that these teachings exalt both.

In acknowledgment of this, we can think of no more fitting conclusion than the words uttered by Elder Glenn L. Pace (First Quorum of the Seventy, October 3, 1992–October 2, 2010) at a 2010 BYU devotional: “Sisters, I testify that when you stand in front of your heavenly parents in those royal courts on high and you look into Her eyes and behold Her countenance, any question you ever had about the role of women in the kingdom will evaporate into the rich celestial air, because at that moment you will see standing directly in front of you, your divine nature and destiny.

 

[rockpond]

36 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I don’t recall a time when the doctrine was ever denied. Do you? “O My Father” has been in the hymnal since long before I was born.

I never suggested that the doctrine was denied.  Odd question.

38 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

But not a lot has been revealed about Her. So beyond the basic fact of Her existence (as affirmed in the hymn and in the family proclamation)  what has there been to teach about Her, really? Would you have wanted speculation and conjecture? We’ve seen the problems that can cause. 

Exactly my point in saying that I don't think this is a doctrine that has been consistently taught.

39 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Apparently, you are uncomfortable with what I have pointed out about the inconsistency of demanding scriptural support/historical provenance for some things but not for others. No matter. I’ve made my point and said my piece. You are free to pursue the subject on a new thread if you like. 

You claim to be pointing out an inconsistency in statements of anonymous people somewhere other than this thread.  Seems like a rather pointless waste of time that will derail your own thread.

[Scott Lloyd]

20 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I never suggested that the doctrine was denied.  Odd question.

Exactly my point in saying that I don't think this is a doctrine that has been consistently taught.

You claim to be pointing out an inconsistency in statements of anonymous people somewhere other than this thread.  Seems like a rather pointless waste of time that will derail your own thread.

But the fact of Her existence — which is about all we know — HAS been consistently taught. I’m puzzled about what would have satisfied you. You said you’re glad She’s “back in the lexicon.” That’s an implied straw man. She was never OUT of the lexicon. 

[Maidservant]

That little girl at the beginning was adorable. I would buy whatever she was selling! Ha ha. And my son is serving in the Cebu mission at the moment, so it was especially cool.

 

Loved the African drums and the timpani(s) in Hope of Israel. Hope that means we will soon see drums used in Sacrament Meetings. Teasing, but that would be happiness for me. Nice touch for no subtitles in the verses ( not being snarky, I mean this), that's respectful I think to not weighting the gospel with one language or another.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Maidservant

[rockpond]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

But the fact of Her existence — which is about all we know — HAS been consistently taught.

I would describe her existence as being minimally taught (see the journal article posted by InCognitus and the gospel topics essay).

4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’m puzzled about what would have satisfied you.

I didn't say I was "dissatisfied".  I think you'd be less puzzled if you didn't try to read things into my comments.

5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You said you’re glad She’s “back in the lexicon.” That’s an implied straw man. She was never OUT of the lexicon. 

Not a straw man.  Take the topic at hand:  She wasn't mentioned in the YW theme.  Now She is.

And, it seems to me that references to this doctrine have increased since the Mother in Heaven gospel topics essay was published.

[rockpond]

12 minutes ago, Maidservant said:

That little girl at the beginning was adorable. I would buy whatever she was selling! Ha ha. And my son is serving in the Cebu mission at the moment, so it was especially cool.

 

Loved the African drums and the timpani(s) in Hope of Israel. Hope that means we will soon see drums used in Sacrament Meetings. Teasing, but that would be happiness for me. Nice touch for no subtitles in the verses ( not being snarky, I mean this), that's respectful I think to not weighting the gospel with one language or anther.

The rendition of Hope of Israel was amazing!

I also noticed the brass section and hoped that maybe we could allow brass instruments in Sacrament meeting.

[Scott Lloyd]

35 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I would describe her existence as being minimally taught (see the journal article posted by InCognitus and the gospel topics essay).

I didn't say I was "dissatisfied".  I think you'd be less puzzled if you didn't try to read things into my comments.

Not a straw man.  Take the topic at hand:  She wasn't mentioned in the YW theme.  Now She is.

And, it seems to me that references to this doctrine have increased since the Mother in Heaven gospel topics essay was published.

The YW theme does not go beyond what was already stated in the frequently cited and decades-old family proclamation. And through the years, every time “O My Father” has.been sung, She has been referred to. 

[MustardSeed]

40 minutes ago, rockpond said:

The rendition of Hope of Israel was amazing!

I also noticed the brass section and hoped that maybe we could allow brass instruments in Sacrament meeting.

I absolutely noticed the brass in the beginning of the meeting. 
Wouldn't it be something if the music of the church had a complete and total overhaul?  Sometimes I feel like we are an episode of Little House on the Prairie.   

My family member plays a beautiful t-bone.  I'd love for him to play in church before his time on earth is done.

Edited November 18, 2019 by MustardSeed

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, InCognitus said:

The Mother in Heaven question is sort of off topic (I suppose), but David Paulsen has a good article on this in BYU Studies 50:1 from 2011, here:  https://byustudies.byu.edu/content/mother-there-survey-historical-teachings-about-mother-heaven

His conclusion (supported by 97 footnotes) in the article is this:

 

Thank you for citing this. Very enlightening. 

[Ahab]

27 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I absolutely noticed the brass in the beginning of the meeting. 
Wouldn't it be something if the music of the church had a complete and total overhaul?  Sometimes I feel like we are an episode of Little House on the Prairie.   

My family member plays a beautiful t-bone.  I'd love for him to play in church before his time on earth is done.

T-bones are required for playing 'When The Saints Go Marching In', in my opinion.  I'm sure the Orchestra At Temple Square has some of them in it.

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Sometimes I feel like we are an episode of Little House on the Prairie.   

👍  

Only sometimes?? 

 

Edited November 19, 2019 by mfbukowski

[rchorse]

9 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I absolutely noticed the brass in the beginning of the meeting. 
Wouldn't it be something if the music of the church had a complete and total overhaul?  Sometimes I feel like we are an episode of Little House on the Prairie.   

My family member plays a beautiful t-bone.  I'd love for him to play in church before his time on earth is done.

My son played "Love One Another" on his trombone for the primary program this last Sunday. The branch president approved it, and the language in the handbook does allow some (a tiny bit) flexibility:

"Instruments with a prominent or less worshipful sound, such as most brass and percussion, are not appropriate for sacrament meeting."

It says most brass, not all brass, so there is some room for interpretation.

[Duncan]

20 hours ago, ksfisher said:

Does anyone know how well Duty to God worked in areas where there was no scouting? 

 

we had a scouting program of sorts, I did it from ages 11-13 or thereabouts. I was just handed the DTG award, I had never heard of it until they called myself and some others up to the pulpit to get it. Scouting and Cubs and that stuff really depended on the leaders, if they really liked it then it was fun but if not then it sucked the will to live

[rpn]

19 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Is there a written declaration establishing Mother in Heaven as a revelation? The earliest documentation I know of is not from a Church president but from a poetess, Eliza R. Snow. 

Yes, but confirmed by Joseph Smith after complaints by those who heard it from Sister Snow.

[Amulek]

16 hours ago, Maidservant said:

Loved the African drums and the timpani(s) in Hope of Israel.

Same. I asked my wife if we could move to Africa just for the cultural excuse to make use of drums a bit more often. 

Oh, and quick tidbit: the word "timpani" is plural already, so you would never say "timpanis."

On the super-rare occasion where you might need to refer to a single kettledrum, you would call it...well, a kettledrum, or (if you're really trying to impress people) you would refer to it as a "timpano." 

Sorry for the diversion. My inner drummer can now rest in peace.  

 

Quote

Hope that means we will soon see drums used in Sacrament Meetings. Teasing, but that would be happiness for me. 

Maybe they could have a gong to be used whenever a talk / testimony runs too long... 

 

[Traela]

How has no one mentioned the new Primary song yet?  I thought the youth song was bland, and sounded pretty much indistinguishable from every other year’s theme song, but the Primary song is awesome.  Having adorable small children singing didn’t hurt.

 

 

 

Edited November 19, 2019 by Traela

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, rpn said:

Yes, but confirmed by Joseph Smith after complaints by those who heard it from Sister Snow.

From the entry in the Gospel Topics essay:

“While there is no record of a formal revelation to Joseph Smith on this doctrine, some early Latter-day Saint women recalled that he personally taught them about a Mother in Heaven. The earliest published references to the doctrine appeared shortly after Joseph Smith’s death in 1844, in documents written by his close associates. The most notable expression of the idea is found in a poem by Eliza R. Snow, entitled ‘My Father in Heaven’ and now known as the hymn ‘O My Father.’”

So it would appear, then, that in terms of documentation, hearsay evidence is the best we have. 
 

Don’t get me wrong. I believe it is true doctrine and that Joseph Smith did teach it. But from time to time, I see critics trying to shed doubt on widely accepted teachings they don’t like, giving the pretext that there is no explicit scriptural support and no formal written declaration of revelation. I’m saying what’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. 

Edited November 19, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[Maidservant]

52 minutes ago, Amulek said:

Oh, and quick tidbit: the word "timpani" is plural already, so you would never say "timpanis."

On the super-rare occasion where you might need to refer to a single kettledrum, you would call it...well, a kettledrum, or (if you're really trying to impress people) you would refer to it as a "timpano." 

Sorry for the diversion. My inner drummer can now rest in peace.  

No worries, if it makes you feel any better, I ventured into that grammar/spelling territory with great trepidation to begin with! ha ha. (When all else fails, add an 's'.)

 

52 minutes ago, Amulek said:

 

Maybe they could have a gong to be used whenever a talk / testimony runs too long... 

 

[gopher]

49 minutes ago, Traela said:

How has no one mentioned the new Primary song yet?  I thought the youth song was bland, and sounded pretty much indistinguishable from every other year’s theme song, but the Primary song is awesome.  Having adorable small children singing didn’t hurt.

That adorable little boy who sang the solo parts of the Primary song totally upstaged David Archuleta.  Poor guy didn't stand a chance.

I also thought Elder Gong did great.  It's always a difficult task to sell teens on anything new in the church.

[Scott Lloyd]

8 minutes ago, gopher said:

That adorable little boy who sang the solo parts of the Primary song totally upstaged David Archuleta.  Poor guy didn't stand a chance.

Apples and oranges. 

[Robert F. Smith]

On 11/18/2019 at 3:14 PM, rockpond said:

The rendition of Hope of Israel was amazing!

I also noticed the brass section and hoped that maybe we could allow brass instruments in Sacrament meeting.

I recall an ecumenical Sabbath meeting of Brighamites and Reorganites in an RLDS Church service in Lamoni, Iowa, many years ago.  It included wonderful music with a small brass section.  It was part of the annual meeting of the Mormon History Association.

[Robert F. Smith]

10 hours ago, rpn said:

Yes, but confirmed by Joseph Smith after complaints by those who heard it from Sister Snow.

Yes, and Eliza was married to Joseph Smith, and she was the sister to another prophet, Lorenzo Snow.  She was more than just a brilliant poet.

[Nofear]

On 11/18/2019 at 3:59 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

But the fact of Her existence — which is about all we know — HAS been consistently taught. ...

We know a fair bit more than just that she exists. Well, at least I and several others on this board believe we do.

From this article: http://squaretwo.org/Sq2ArticleWelchHeavenlyMother.html though, like some aspects of our doctrines, some are more established than others.

• Knowledge of Her was part of the Restoration.
• She existed before the world was created.
• All humans were created in the image of the Mother and the Father.
• She is a Goddess in whose likeness Her children will become.
• She is a united being with the Father.
• She is a participant in the government of heaven.
• She is a key to understanding the divine potential of Her children.
• She is a being with whom humankind will reunite and give an account of their lives.
• She is humanity’s loving Mother who brings comfort to Her children.
• She is an active participant of life on earth.
• She is a being capable and worthy of receiving worship.

There are a couple of other things I could add to the list, but, it is probably sufficient.

[Robert F. Smith]

18 minutes ago, Nofear said:

..........................................

• Knowledge of Her was part of the Restoration.
• She existed before the world was created.
• All humans were created in the image of the Mother and the Father.
• She is a Goddess in whose likeness Her children will become.
• She is a united being with the Father.
• She is a participant in the government of heaven.
• She is a key to understanding the divine potential of Her children.
• She is a being with whom humankind will reunite and give an account of their lives.
• She is humanity’s loving Mother who brings comfort to Her children.
• She is an active participant of life on earth.
• She is a being capable and worthy of receiving worship.

...............................................

1 Nephi 11:18 "the Virgin which thou seest is the Mother of God"   11:20 "bearing a child in her arms"  This is the Theotokos "God-bearer," and Regina Caelestis "Queen of Heaven"  of Roman Catholic veneration, but who was known much more anciently.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, Nofear said:

We know a fair bit more than just that she exists. Well, at least I and several others on this board believe we do.

From this article: http://squaretwo.org/Sq2ArticleWelchHeavenlyMother.html though, like some aspects of our doctrines, some are more established than others.

• Knowledge of Her was part of the Restoration.
• She existed before the world was created.
• All humans were created in the image of the Mother and the Father.
• She is a Goddess in whose likeness Her children will become.
• She is a united being with the Father.
• She is a participant in the government of heaven.
• She is a key to understanding the divine potential of Her children.
• She is a being with whom humankind will reunite and give an account of their lives.
• She is humanity’s loving Mother who brings comfort to Her children.
• She is an active participant of life on earth.
• She is a being capable and worthy of receiving worship.

There are a couple of other things I could add to the list, but, it is probably sufficient.

While all of the above seems quite reasonable and, in my mind at least, more than likely true given what we know about the plan of salvation and our doctrines pertaining to exaltation, eternal increase, etc., it strikes me as inferential and extrapolative. That is, I don’t know that any of it could be tied to scriptural passages or any definitive revelatory declaration. 
 

I think it safe to say that the Church leaders feel that what the Church can authoritatively teach <at this time> about this concept is contained in the Gospel Topics essay. And I still say that boils down to a modicum of knowledge and understanding. 

Edited November 20, 2019 by Scott Lloyd