The paradisiacal nature before the fall

[marineland]

This is from Lesson 4 (Religion 250 manual).

"This first temporal creation of all things … was paradisiacal in nature. In the 
primeval and Edenic day all forms of life lived in a higher and different state 
than now prevails.  The coming fall would take them downward and forward and 
onward. Death and procreation had yet to enter the world" (Bruce R. McConkie, 
"Christ and the Creation," Ensign, June 1982, 9).

Not even the animals could obey God's commandment to be fruitful and multiply?

Thanks

Tony

[JLHPROF]

41 minutes ago, marineland said:

This is from Lesson 4 (Religion 250 manual).

"This first temporal creation of all things … was paradisiacal in nature. In the 
primeval and Edenic day all forms of life lived in a higher and different state 
than now prevails.  The coming fall would take them downward and forward and 
onward. Death and procreation had yet to enter the world" (Bruce R. McConkie, 
"Christ and the Creation," Ensign, June 1982, 9).

Not even the animals could obey God's commandment to be fruitful and multiply?

Thanks

Tony

That would depend on how they came to earth, ie, were they mortal creatures?

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, marineland said:

This is from Lesson 4 (Religion 250 manual).

"This first temporal creation of all things … was paradisiacal in nature. In the 
primeval and Edenic day all forms of life lived in a higher and different state 
than now prevails.  The coming fall would take them downward and forward and 
onward. Death and procreation had yet to enter the world" (Bruce R. McConkie, 
"Christ and the Creation," Ensign, June 1982, 9).

Not even the animals could obey God's commandment to be fruitful and multiply?

Thanks

Tony

Elder Mc C took everything rather literally.

[SettingDogStar]

43 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Elder Mc C took everything rather literally.

Sometimes to much so. The other possibility is that Nephi was also misunderstanding the literalness of his scriptures as well. It might be “the most correct book” but that could just be in reference to the principles or salvation, not specific doctrines like this. 

[Maidservant]

On 10/12/2019 at 6:09 PM, marineland said:

Not even the animals could obey God's commandment to be fruitful and multiply?

Thanks

Tony

Nobody knows. But probably yes? Even with a good read of the scriptures had i.e. three (text) LDS versions of the creation. Not to mention the acceptation of the scientific explanations of evolution are accepted or at least not precluded, in order to be a latter-day saint.

Also what does be fruitful and multiply mean? Does it reduce only to reproduction? I would venture it has a greater, wider, deeper meaning that, after all, might apply only to humans.

[sunstoned]

On 10/12/2019 at 7:20 PM, mfbukowski said:

Elder Mc C took everything rather literally.

He was very authoritarian on his pronouncements.  I tend to think that there is much we don't know, and that's okay.

[CV75]

On 10/12/2019 at 8:09 PM, marineland said:

Not even the animals could obey God's commandment to be fruitful and multiply?

In context of the scriptures (whether taken literally or figuratively), where the animals were dependent upon human decisions and stewardship to define the parameters of action, no.

[Ahab]

On 10/12/2019 at 5:09 PM, marineland said:

This is from Lesson 4 (Religion 250 manual).

"This first temporal creation of all things … was paradisiacal in nature. In the 
primeval and Edenic day all forms of life lived in a higher and different state 
than now prevails.  The coming fall would take them downward and forward and 
onward. Death and procreation had yet to enter the world" (Bruce R. McConkie, 
"Christ and the Creation," Ensign, June 1982, 9).

Not even the animals could obey God's commandment to be fruitful and multiply?

Thanks

Tony

Supposedly, Adam and Eve weren't able to multiply until they fell because they just didn't know how.  They didn't have any knowledge of good or evil, and that included not knowing how to procreate.  I suppose animals could have been that naive about that, too.

I can more easily understand how plants would not be able to reproduce if nothing from them ever died until after the fall.  I imagine the fruit on trees and plants would just stay on the plants, not falling to the ground to dissolve and then create other plants.

And it would seem to me that if animals did reproduce before the fall then Adam and Eve could have learned how to do it by just watching them, but supposedly that still was not enough to give them the good knowledge they needed to know how to do it.

I imagine all of creation having a major stupor of thought, existing but not doing anything good or anything evil.  Lions not eating any sheep.  Dogs not chasing any cats.  No animals in any "heat".  Everything just existing but not doing anything good or anything evil.

[Robert F. Smith]

On 10/12/2019 at 6:09 PM, marineland said:

This is from Lesson 4 (Religion 250 manual).

"This first temporal creation of all things … was paradisiacal in nature. In the 
primeval and Edenic day all forms of life lived in a higher and different state 
than now prevails.  The coming fall would take them downward and forward and 
onward. Death and procreation had yet to enter the world" (Bruce R. McConkie, 
"Christ and the Creation," Ensign, June 1982, 9).

Not even the animals could obey God's commandment to be fruitful and multiply?

Thanks

Tony

How will the lion be able to lie down with the lamb?  What do carnivores do in a paradisiacal state?  A lot of such questions to be answered.

[theplains]

43 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Supposedly, Adam and Eve weren't able to multiply until they fell because they just didn't know how.  They didn't have any knowledge of good or evil, and that included not knowing how to procreate.  I suppose animals could have been that naive about that, too.

Based on LDS teachings, it seems it was not knowledge but rather it was a blood issue.

The statement of Eve in relation to having children in Moses 5:11 does not indicate her gaining knowledge
to procreate but rather ability. Unless you believe something not mentioned - that eating from the forbidden
tree gave Eve knowledge of how to procreate (so the tree was really about the knowledge of good + evil +
how to have children); which she later shared with Adam (who lacked that knowledge).

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1993/10/constancy-amid-change?lang=eng&query=blood+fall+adam

A law was explained to them. Should they eat from “the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” (Gen. 2:17),
their bodies would change; mortality and eventual death would come upon them. But partaking of that fruit
was prerequisite to their parenthood.

While I do not fully understand all the biochemistry involved, I do know that their physical bodies did change;
blood began to circulate in their bodies. Adam and Eve thereby became mortal. Happily for us, they could also
beget children and fulfill the purposes for which the world was created.

From Doctrines of Salvation, volume 1:

"When Adam was in the Garden of Eden, he was not subject to death. There was no blood in his body and
he could have remained there forever. This is true of all the other creations” (pages 76-77).

"After the fall ... the forbidden fruit had the power to create blood and change his nature and mortality took
the place of immortality, and all things, partaking of the change, became mortal" (page 77).

"There was no blood in Adam's body before the fall. He was not then "flesh" as we know it, that is in the
sense of mortality" (page 92).

As for the animals, they apparently had the ability to procreate.

Page 24 of the 1997 Gospel Principles says, "The earth and everything on it were created spiritually before 
they were created physically (see Moses 3:5). In planning to create the physical earth, Christ ... said to those
who were with him, We will go down, for there is space there ... Then he created the animals - fish, cattle,
insects, and birds of all kinds. These animals had the ability to reproduce their own kind."

Thanks,
Jim

[2BizE]

I believe this was symbolic and this wasn’t a real happening.  It was a story to help explain our existence as humans.

[Ahab]

21 minutes ago, theplains said:

Based on LDS teachings, it seems it was not knowledge but rather it was a blood issue.

I don't understand that statement to mean that they needed blood to be able to reproduce themselves.  The statement that they did not have blood in their bodies before they fell is simply further clarification on what it meant for them to have immortal bodies.  When we are resurrected our bodies will be restored to the same condition as the bodies of Adam and Eve and we will no longer have blood in our bodies then, but we are told that husbands and wives who are sealed together with celestial glory will be able to reproduce themselves as children.  I suppose that will be because we will know how to do it then.

[Alan]

I think we need to draw a distinction between the garden of Eden and the rest of the earth. I don't believe the entire earth was paradisical; if it was there would have been no need for a garden, nor would expulsion from the garden result in entry to a lone and dreary world.

Only those in the garden were in a higher form. Animals and plants outside the garden would have been procreating. Perhaps they were not subject to death though until the fall, which is how they were able to replenish the earth over the thousands of years Adam and Eve were in Eden.

Just my opinion.

[Glenn101]

22 hours ago, sunstoned said:

I tend to think that there is much we don't know, and that's okay.

That is one thing I can completely agree with.

Glenn

[pogi]

9 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

How will the lion be able to lie down with the lamb? 

Maybe that was the problem with their reproduction, they were all lying with (in the Biblical sense) the wrong species 🤭

[mfbukowski]

On 10/12/2019 at 5:09 PM, marineland said:

This is from Lesson 4 (Religion 250 manual).

"This first temporal creation of all things … was paradisiacal in nature. In the 
primeval and Edenic day all forms of life lived in a higher and different state 
than now prevails.  The coming fall would take them downward and forward and 
onward. Death and procreation had yet to enter the world" (Bruce R. McConkie, 
"Christ and the Creation," Ensign, June 1982, 9).

Not even the animals could obey God's commandment to be fruitful and multiply?

Thanks

Tony

This has probably been discussed but theoretically there would be no need for reproduction because not only could they NOT reproduce, they could not die.

Population size was totally frozen, no increase, no decrease

But again this is Elder Mc C. and his theological inheritance from Joseph F. et al.

[mfbukowski]

On 10/12/2019 at 7:05 PM, SettingDogStar said:

Sometimes to much so. The other possibility is that Nephi was also misunderstanding the literalness of his scriptures as well. It might be “the most correct book” but that could just be in reference to the principles or salvation, not specific doctrines like this. 

It is not a science book.  It has nothing about black holes or relativity- obviously we do not expect it to have that sort of info.

[mfbukowski]

On 10/14/2019 at 11:39 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

How will the lion be able to lie down with the lamb?  What do carnivores do in a paradisiacal state?  A lot of such questions to be answered.

Clearly they will have to learn how to photosynthesize.  I have been trying to do that for years mediating really hard. 

Oh wait.  Will there still be a sun? 

 

[theplains]

28 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

This has probably been discussed but theoretically there would be no need for reproduction because not only could they NOT reproduce, they could not die.

Why do you believe God told Adam, Eve, and the animals to be fruitful and multiply before the Fall?

Jim

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, theplains said:

Why do you believe God told Adam, Eve, and the animals to be fruitful and multiply before the Fall?

Jim

Well I had a long post and when I tried to submit it I got a "403 Forbidden" message again and again and have no idea why.  I edited it several times and took out every word I thought could possibly be objection able and stilll got the message.

I will try later.  Must have spent at least an hour on that thing- very frustrating.   I suppose I will edit it 

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Well I had a long post and when I tried to submit it I got a "403 Forbidden" message again and again and have no idea why.  I edited it several times and took out every word I thought could possibly be objection able and stilll got the message.

I will try later.  Must have spent at least an hour on that thing- very frustrating.   I suppose I will edit it 

When this has happened to me, I post it in parts and that can narrow down the problem.  I either post a quarter, save it and then edit in additional quarters or if it prevents me from editing ( sometimes happens as the board seems more forgiving with an edit than a submit reply post on the first attempt to edit, but then locks me out of the post), then add on "part 2"...marking clearly continuations just in case someone posts while I am doing it.

Edited October 16, 2019 by Calm

[MiserereNobis]

6 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Well I had a long post and when I tried to submit it I got a "403 Forbidden" message again and again and have no idea why.  I edited it several times and took out every word I thought could possibly be objection able and stilll got the message.

I will try later.  Must have spent at least an hour on that thing- very frustrating.   I suppose I will edit it 

The board obviously deemed your response not worthy.

Perhaps that should be the temple recommend rejection response... the bishop simply says "403 Forbidden"

[Calm]

Just now, MiserereNobis said:

.. the bishop simply says "403 Forbidden"

That rates .

 

[MiserereNobis]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Clearly they will have to learn how to photosynthesize.  I have been trying to do that for years mediating really hard. 

Oh wait.  Will there still be a sun? 

 

I have run in hippie circles and there are proponents of sun gazing. Photosynthesize away, brother!

There are also those breathaterians out there, too.

Ahh, as I grow older I miss my old crazy hippie days. But luckily there is high Mass and Benedictine monasteries  

 

[mfbukowski]

52 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I have run in hippie circles and there are proponents of sun gazing. Photosynthesize away, brother!

There are also those breathaterians out there, too.

Ahh, as I grow older I miss my old crazy hippie days. But luckily there is high Mass and Benedictine monasteries  

 

Oh yeah.

I remember it well!!