Personality defects vs Free agency

[Stargazer]

Something that has been bothering me for some time is the prevalence of personality disorders that seem to cancel out free agency.  My primary example is "Narcissistic Personality Disorder".  People afflicted with this seem to have little or no capability of realizing their problem, and therefore of correcting it.  I've heard the estimate that about 6% of the population feature this trait in some degree, and if so, what is to be made of the notion of free agency for people afflicted with it?  And with that I also proceed to sufferers of other disorders that seem not to be able to control or recognize the problem.  How many people have made others' lives miserable through their afflictions over the ages, and yet never seemed to be able to do anything about it, because they couldn't recognize their own problem?

Modern psychotherapists seem to have figured out ways to deal with some of these problems, but in many cases no treatment is given because none is sought.  Examining the Wikipedia article on Narcissistic Personality Disorder, you can perhaps see that you may have run into some of these people in your life.  Or check out the video I reference below.  What of the free agency of such people, when it appears that their agency may be close to nonexistent?  Have you known people with NPD who have made a turnaround and successfully dealt with it?  And what of those who never recognize that they have such a problem?  What is the eternal status of people suffering from this, who never in this life realize what is going on with themselves?  I should note that since this is a condition present in mortality, and would not follow one into the Spirit World, perhaps one would recognize that there had been a problem that needed repentance at that time?

I don't have an answer so far, and so I put this out there for discussion.

 

[Ahab]

This seems like another demonic possession thread to me unless you're trying to focus on this problem from some other angle. 

We've been taught that we are responsible for what we do but we are not responsible for what other people do, and I would say that also applies to actions that are done in our own body.  Did we do it,. or did someone else in there with us do it?  And did we give our approval?

Edited September 27, 2019 by Ahab

[strappinglad]

I wonder what portion of our personality is eternal/nature and what part comes from our interaction with our environment. NPD may be a tendency built into our genes kind of like an addictive personality is. If so ,hopefully God will compensate . On the other hand ,this life being a test, it will expose the ' eternal ' flaw. 

[Ahab]

31 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

I wonder what portion of our personality is eternal/nature and what part comes from our interaction with our environment. NPD may be a tendency built into our genes kind of like an addictive personality is. If so ,hopefully God will compensate . On the other hand ,this life being a test, it will expose the ' eternal ' flaw. 

I would say our personality is the same as our spirit and that our body can limit what our spirit can do.  Like someone who has lost a leg while the spirit still has both of them, the person can't walk by using its invisible leg. (invisible to mortal eyes).

Someone could have some brain damage (notice I'm not saying mental disorder because that would be spirit related) which could limit the spirit from acting as it would if the brain didn't have that damage.  I can see how that could happen.

I would look for any sign of physical damage to the brain, or anything physical that might be affecting the brain to keep it from functioning as it should.  If it's not a physical problem and instead is a mental disorder, then the problem is with some spirit that is inside of that body.

Edited September 27, 2019 by Ahab

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Ahab said:

I would say our personality is the same as our spirit and that our body can limit what our spirit can do.  Like someone who has lost a leg while the spirit still has both of them, the person can't walk by using its invisible leg. (invisible to mortal eyes).

Someone could have some brain damage (notice I'm not saying mental disorder because that would be spirit related) which could limit the spirit from acting as it would if the brain didn't have that damage.  I can see how that could happen.

I would look for any sign of physical damage to the brain, or anything physical that might be affecting the brain to keep it from functioning as it should.  If it's not a physical problem and instead is a mental disorder, then the problem is with some spirit that is inside of that body.

Gee, we never thought of looking at the brain of those suffering from mental and emotional disorders and illnesses. What a great idea. We should do that!!!

/sarcasm

[The Nehor]

In general I recommend Elder Holland's "Like a Broken Vessel" talk. My disorder is relatively minor and it made life hell. Treating it was the most momentous event of my life outside of a very few spiritual experiences. It did impact agency. I wanted to do some things and could not and trying harder made it worse. It is still there but now that it is identified and treatable I can mitigate it, work around it, and fight it on terms I can win.

It also explains a lot of my problems. It explains why God was much quicker to forgive than I believe He is with others without the problem.

I am friends with someone with NPD. He still has agency. He can be a little scary though. The idea that their agency is severely diminished is not really true. For narcissists and sociopaths they can train themselves to survive. Most are also abuse victims and those who have been driven to their current state so I expect God will be merciful. Even full psychopaths can train themselves to survive in society without criminal activity. Interesting work has show that while psychopaths do not fear punishment they do crave rewards and there is a treatment program working on this.

[Maidservant]

I have wrestled with agency my whole life in much the way you describe it.

First of all, I think the first thing to keep in mind that 'agency' and 'choice' are actually somewhat different things.

Agency, in my understanding, is actually whether or not God can come through us into this world (including our own lives) (the alternative being Satan coming through). We must 'choose' our 'agency'--who (or what) we are an agent for. Yes, we are agents for ourselves as well, but in service of God or not-God.

The whole wrestle of earth life is a truncation of options. We lose a lot of stuff. We don't know a lot of stuff. We have the lack of available options. Even if we have a vision for who we want to be, that's not the same thing as actually executing the vision (i.e. weakness). It's a big practicum precisely about losing agency, preserving agency.

I think it's a bit of a paradox. In one sense, no one can take the privilege of choice and agency from us. But it doesn't mean we have full capacity to make all choices or fulfill a complete God agency at all times. It's like a baby being born. Yes, it's a human. But it's not an adult yet. It's going to fall before it walks.

I have lived a life where I had many barriers to choice and agency, including so-called mental health challenges. It was true that I didn't have agency and choices in many areas of life. I had to come to recognize that, first. "You CAN'T choose this. You haven't prepared to be able to make that choice."  But, paradoxically, the healing of that was to gradually know that I did have choices. "Choose here. And in this little spot. And in this way. And choose again. And stick with that choice. Cultivate. There you go! Now that area of life, agency, and choice is open to you and you have capacity and authority in it, and that area now also channels God/Holy Spirit!"

As far as being forgiven, I think we already were before we came here (except by our own selves). I don't think that's really the game we're playing here. But then again, to forgive, be forgiven, and forgive yourself, is to release yourself from conditioning and authority and agency-incapacity from anything other than the pure love of God.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Maidservant said:

I have wrestled with agency my whole life in much the way you describe it.

First of all, I think the first thing to keep in mind that 'agency' and 'choice' are actually somewhat different things.

Agency, in my understanding, is actually whether or not God can come through us into this world (including our own lives) (the alternative being Satan coming through). We must 'choose' our 'agency'--who (or what) we are an agent for. Yes, we are agents for ourselves as well, but in service of God or not-God...........................

And here I thought of free agents in the NFL.  The notion of agency as representative of someone else hadn't occurred to me.  Like an FBI agent.  Interesting.

[Meadowchik]

As far as I understand it, trauma is at the root of extremely antisocial disorders. I do think that free agency can have a positive impact, but perhaps not in the way you'd expect. For instance, when people around the narcissistic person are free and autonomous and allowed to say no and distance themselves, perhaps the narcissist can have more incentive to try more empathetic behaviours. And there are people with other disorders with difficulty empathizing who are able to contribute and live full lives because they want the benefits that flow socially from empathetic behaviour. So in my opinion, a healthier system has more tools to entice disordered individuals to interact more healthily.

[Scott Lloyd]

On 9/28/2019 at 12:25 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

And here I thought of free agents in the NFL.  The notion of agency as representative of someone else hadn't occurred to me.  Like an FBI agent.  Interesting.

Maybe part of the problem is misnomer. The term “free agency” is not scriptural. It is “moral agency” or just plain “agency.” 

Edited October 2, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[Maidservant]

7 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

And here I thought of free agents in the NFL.  The notion of agency as representative of someone else hadn't occurred to me.  Like an FBI agent.  Interesting.

Well, yes, because it's true that we can't choose a whole lot of things. Nelson Mandela really might not have been able to walk out of prison, but he could choose how he responded, in a God-like way or in a Satan-like way or neutral or whatever. Representation, or I simply consider it the kind of energy we carry and the being we are (like God). The only way God gets into the world is through us. But I do like to think of it as representation also. Serving God IS representing God.

And Nephi and Lehi taught there are only two Ways, the Way of life and liberty; and the way of captivity and death. So those are two agencies, is what they are.

To continue to riff, one of the thing that we must have before we can make a choice or be an agent, is to know or believe that we do have a choice, and most people on the planet don't know that much.

Edited September 28, 2019 by Maidservant

[Stargazer]

16 hours ago, Ahab said:

This seems like another demonic possession thread to me unless you're trying to focus on this problem from some other angle. 

We've been taught that we are responsible for what we do but we are not responsible for what other people do, and I would say that also applies to actions that are done in our own body.  Did we do it,. or did someone else in there with us do it?  And did we give our approval?

It might "seem" like it, but NPD is not demonic possession.  It's a common personality disorder.  Someone with NPD can do some pretty nasty things -- and the question in my mind is this: is the NPD to blame for the bad things they do, or is it something they will not be held responsible for?

[Meadowchik]

20 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

It might "seem" like it, but NPD is not demonic possession.  It's a common personality disorder.  Someone with NPD can do some pretty nasty things -- and the question in my mind is this: is the NPD to blame for the bad things they do, or is it something they will not be held responsible for?

I can hold to the concept that God looks on the heart. Dealing with a narcissist was very traumatic for me and it was one of the most intense conflict with evil that I have ever experienced. I'm very glad I no longer have to see that person, who was in our previous ward. But even then, I wouldn't presume to know his exact standing with God. I do know he hasn't repented of the harm he did us, and I think he might not be capable of repenting in this life. What remains for me, is what I should do about it now, in this life, when this person still does evil things (and this was especially relevant back when we were still neighbors.) I learned that I can say no. I've learned that God would not require me to sacrifice my or my family's well being for that person, even in an effort to be loving. I've learned that love does not mean accepting abuse. This might be an obvious lesson for some, but I genuinely struggled with the meaning of consecration for God and loving others, and what that means. I feel like love is much more vibrant and strong with healthy boundaries.

[Robert F. Smith]

7 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Maybe part of the problem is misnomer. The term “free agency” is not scriptural. It is “moral agency” of just plain “agency.” 

Yes, being a free agent in the NBA is bit different than having "moral agency" (D&C 101:78):

Quote

Human agency is the capacity for human beings to make choices. It is normally contrasted to natural forces, which are causes involving only unthinking deterministic processes. In this respect, agency is subtly distinct from the concept of free will, the philosophical doctrine that our choices are not the product of causal chains, but are significantly free or undetermined. Human agency entails the claim that humans do in fact make decisions and enact them on the world. How humans come to make decisions, by free choice or other processes, is another issue. https://www.basicknowledge101.com/pdf/Agency (philosophy).pdf .

Another part of the problem may be that General Authorities have been using the phrase "free agency"  for a long time, which is really a natural consequence of the way in which Scripture speaks of it:

they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act … and not to be acted upon....men are free … to choose  2 Nephi 2:26-27.

ye are free to act for yourselves, 2 Ne. 10:23.

that ye may … do according to your own will, Mosiah 2:21.

under this head ye are made free, Mosiah 5:8.

ye are free; ye are permitted to act for yourselves, Hel 14:30.

act according to their wills, Alma 12:31.

in the first place being left to choose, Alma 13:3.

thou mayest choose for thyself, Moses 3:17.

Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, Moses 4:3

gave I unto man his agency, Moses 7:32.

he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency; D&C 29:36

That every man may act in doctrine and principle pertaining to futurity, according to the moral agency which I have given unto him, that every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment. D&C 101:78

the free exercise of conscience, . . . holding sacred the freedom of conscience. D&C 134:2,5

[The Nehor]

In the end we will be judged by what we did with what we had to work with. There will be some surprises as some people who did all kinds of harm will be mercifully pardoned due to circumstances they may not even have known of and people that appeared to do much good will be penalized for the evils they lived which seemed to have positive results.

If Joseph Smith was right and all spirits that come here are capable of enlargement then much good (and evil) is being done even by and for those who seem incapable of change.

[mfbukowski]

I think overall this logically is no different from regular determinism vs free will.

There are always factors including language itself, which it can be argued, "program" the way we think and act.

A philosophical position which states that free will and determinism are compatible is called "Compatibism".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibilism

Edited September 28, 2019 by mfbukowski

[katherine the great]

I love your question Stargazer. My mother and one of my children is bipolar and so I often think about the misery they inflict on others (including myself) while they cycle but these are people I love fiercely and I know that it isn't their fault. My daughter is aware and has sought help but my mom remains completely oblivious to her responsibility for it.  In her case, she spins events over in her mind to make it everyone else's fault. I think that is how she copes with it and I've learned to just stay away from her when she's manic (if possible).  I have concluded that these are simply conditions that exist in the natural world and God is fully aware of all of it. I don't believe in a God who would punish his children for forces beyond their control.

[Calm]

The dementia my mother is experiencing is teaching me a lot about how we don't really understand our own behavior....not because of her current choices, but because now her mixed messages are so easy to see.  For example, she says she wants to be around people, but is now choosing to withdraw from social interaction because it is too much work....this reflects that she has always made more choices that led to greater isolation rather than choices to engage.  This is not a bad thing as she has had good reasons in the past, but it demonstrates to me that her perception of herself as family/people oriented isn't accurate, that is not her primary personality which is more introverted and observer, though very caring in many ways.  She has always been very self reflective and never tried to inflate herself, but I think she went to that picture of herself because she was reacting to her mother's choices to be a career woman.  Grandma was an English high school teacher who was very involved in afterschool activities such as drama club and from what Imcan tell long distance, her family suffered at times because of these choices.  Mom took over much of the family care when an early teenager, such as preparing meals including going home at lunchtime to fix her dad a meal when he was recuperating from a heart attack.  I have never heard her describe her mother as supportive of her, though she was very proud of her when she excelled (Grandma was always talking about how Mom was valedictorian of her high school).

If Mom, the person I know most focused on and very capable at trying to realistically know herself missed such an obvious attribute, I think it highly likely most of us are also messed up in thinking we are something we are not...especially those who aren't inclined to ask others for reality checks or examine their own behaviour for clues to what is most important to their selves.

If we don't even fully understand ourselves (see through a glass darkly) and what and why we do what we do, how can we be seen as full agents making actual choices?

Edited September 28, 2019 by Calm

[Meadowchik]

40 minutes ago, Calm said:

If we don't even fully understand ourselves (see through a glass darkly) and what and why we do what we do, how can we be seen as full agents making actual choices?

 

1 hour ago, katherine the great said:

I love your question Stargazer. My mother and one of my children is bipolar and so I often think about the misery they inflict on others (including myself) while they cycle but these are people I love fiercely and I know that it isn't their fault. My daughter is aware and has sought help but my mom remains completely oblivious to her responsibility for it.  In her case, she spins events over in her mind to make it everyone else's fault. I think that is how she copes with it and I've learned to just stay away from her when she's manic (if possible).  I have concluded that these are simply conditions that exist in the natural world and God is fully aware of all of it. I don't believe in a God who would punish his children for forces beyond their control.

I agree, we definitely do not have perfect agency of ourselves. Both your descriptions would suggest that personal agency can ebb and flow, cyclically, in addition to the increase into adulthood and possible decrease later. And some may never experience it to certain thresholds. 

There's so much more cause for mercy for all people than I think can be readily seen.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

I think overall this logically is no different from regular determinism vs free will.

There are always factors including language itself, which it can be argued, "program" the way we think and act.

A philosophical position which states that free will and determinism are compatible is called "Compatibism".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibilism

Well, of course you would choose to post that. You had to!

[CV75]

On 9/27/2019 at 5:59 PM, Stargazer said:

What is the eternal status of people suffering from this, who never in this life realize what is going on with themselves?

I think the same as anyone else with mortal problems that are more easily understood (or accepted); the preaching of the Gospel in spirit prison will settle each question. while none of us were perfect spirits, we all chose exaltation to qualify to come here, so I don't think anyone brought a personality trait from the pre-existence that could not be perfected prior to the resurrection.

[The Nehor]

23 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I think the same as anyone else with mortal problems that are more easily understood (or accepted); the preaching of the Gospel in spirit prison will settle each question. while none of us were perfect spirits, we all chose exaltation to qualify to come here, so I don't think anyone brought a personality trait from the pre-existence that could not be perfected prior to the resurrection.

I would add that one of the purposes of the Millenium is a chance to compensate for Telestial injustices.

[MustardSeed]

All I can say is that I really trust God to be fair, to know us better than anyone, to hold us accountable for what we were knowingly rebellious about, and to offer grace where we were ignorant. 

It will all work out if we do our best. 

Edit: IMO. 

Edited September 30, 2019 by MustardSeed

[Ahab]

On 9/28/2019 at 8:24 AM, Stargazer said:

It might "seem" like it, but NPD is not demonic possession.  It's a common personality disorder.  Someone with NPD can do some pretty nasty things -- and the question in my mind is this: is the NPD to blame for the bad things they do, or is it something they will not be held responsible for?

I meant a question of demonic possession, or not, which is what the thread is about.  In that thread we're talking about whether or not something is demonic possession, and I see this question in this thread as pretty much the  same kind of thing. 

Did they do it, or did the devil make them do it?

To get at this on the fundamental level I would say that the first thing we need to understand is that people are responsible for only their own actions, rather than the actions of some other person, and being responsible for our own actions includes any action we take to agree with or assist or work together with some other person in what they are doing.  So when we start talking about demonic possession, or NPD, or any other condition which can affect the choices we make, we need to remember that each person is still held responsible for any action they take as we try to determine whether what they did was the result of their own action or if instead some other person caused them to do what they did.  And beyond that I think it's best to let our Lord determine that and maybe share his understanding with others who need to determine what to do with people who make the choices they make.

Sometimes it's just a case of ignorance, with people sometimes not realizing they are doing something that someone else considers a bad/evil thing to do.  So sometimes that person just needs to be taught the difference between good and evil on that issue.  We shouldn't assume that just because we know what is good or evil on an issue that everyone else is on the same level.  There is a lot of ignorance in the world with people just not realizing how they are doing what other people consider to be bad/evil acts.

[nuclearfuels]

On 9/27/2019 at 5:59 PM, Stargazer said:

Something that has been bothering me for some time is the prevalence of personality disorders that seem to cancel out free agency.  My primary example is "Narcissistic Personality Disorder".  People afflicted with this seem to have little or no capability of realizing their problem, and therefore of correcting it.  I've heard the estimate that about 6% of the population feature this trait in some degree, and if so, what is to be made of the notion of free agency for people afflicted with it?  And with that I also proceed to sufferers of other disorders that seem not to be able to control or recognize the problem.  How many people have made others' lives miserable through their afflictions over the ages, and yet never seemed to be able to do anything about it, because they couldn't recognize their own problem?

Modern psychotherapists seem to have figured out ways to deal with some of these problems, but in many cases no treatment is given because none is sought.  Examining the Wikipedia article on Narcissistic Personality Disorder, you can perhaps see that you may have run into some of these people in your life.  Or check out the video I reference below.  What of the free agency of such people, when it appears that their agency may be close to nonexistent?  Have you known people with NPD who have made a turnaround and successfully dealt with it?  And what of those who never recognize that they have such a problem?  What is the eternal status of people suffering from this, who never in this life realize what is going on with themselves?  I should note that since this is a condition present in mortality, and would not follow one into the Spirit World, perhaps one would recognize that there had been a problem that needed repentance at that time?

I don't have an answer so far, and so I put this out there for discussion.

 

Glad I'm not the judge of such people, especially since I'm likely one of them.

I've read that empathy is developed in the younger years and if you don't get it then, it's hard to build it later in life. Seems true to form for me.

Boundaries for toxic people area always a good thing, even if you are called to serve with them