Personality defects vs Free agency

[LoudmouthMormon]

I'm struck by how agency is limited, and limitable.  We like to say "we can choose", but there's always more to the story.

- Agency isn't limitless I have no ability to (for example), choose to win the lottery.  Or whatever. 

- Agency can be voluntarily given up (thinking mind-altering drugs).  I can ingest substances which remove my agency.  I may be legally held responsible for whatever I do when I'm out of my mind on speedballs, God may hold me accountable for what I do when on the drugs.  But once under some drug's effects, it's not possible to gain back lost inhibitions, or choose not to have any permanent negative health consequences.  You can kill yourself, and you don't get to come back from that.

- Agency can be taken from you.  You can be kidnapped and given these drugs.  Or killed.   You have no choice, you will lose your agency in the ways described above.

So, throw mental illness into the mix, I can see them falling into the last two categories.

[Ahab]

18 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

I'm struck by how agency is limited, and limitable.  We like to say "we can choose", but there's always more to the story.

- Agency isn't limitless I have no ability to (for example), choose to win the lottery.  Or whatever. 

- Agency can be voluntarily given up (thinking mind-altering drugs).  I can ingest substances which remove my agency.  I may be legally held responsible for whatever I do when I'm out of my mind on speedballs, God may hold me accountable for what I do when on the drugs.  But once under some drug's effects, it's not possible to gain back lost inhibitions, or choose not to have any permanent negative health consequences.  You can kill yourself, and you don't get to come back from that.

- Agency can be taken from you.  You can be kidnapped and given these drugs.  Or killed.   You have no choice, you will lose your agency in the ways described above.

So, throw mental illness into the mix, I can see them falling into the last two categories.

Yes, in some cases a person can actually lose his/her freedom to choose among the options then available to him/her under then-existing circumstances, but in most cases people don't actually lose their freedom to choose among the options then available to them, it's just that they don't like any of the choices they are aware of that are then available to them.  Losing our freedom to choose among the options we have available to us at a particular moment in time is actually quite a complicated task to achieve.  And we very rarely have any power to choose what someone else does.  We simply choose what we can do under existing circumstances, when we have the power to choose.

Edited October 2, 2019 by Ahab

[Scott Lloyd]

14 hours ago, blarsen said:

I personally think removing the ‘free’ from agency is an unfortunate development.  Why?  Because it de-emphasizes the precious liberty we all inherently possess, and that, inalienably.

Using agency alone, has a strong connotation that you are the agent of someone or some group who have condescended to give you the agency to act on their behalf (look up the dictionary definitions).   Free agency means it is an inherent quality I possess independent of anyone or any group. 

For me, in so far as I'm an eternal intelligence, I inherently possess my own free agency, i.e., intelligence implies free agency.

And decoupling the word 'free' from agency doesn't cure or change the idea that we still suffer or benefit from our freely chosen actions.  So to conflate free agency with the idea that the consequences aren’t ‘free’ just doesn’t wash.

A very unfortunate move, imho.  Especially in a day when our freedoms are eroding more rapidly than ever.

I would challenge your assumption that agency is an inherent possession “independent of anyone or any group.” We are repeatedly taught in the Church that agency is a gift bestowed upon us by a loving Heavenly Father. See, for example, the “Agency” entry in “True to the Faith,” a gospel reference book published by the Church and accessible on the Church’s website or on the “Gospel Library” app for mobile devices. 
 

Thus, agency is not an inherent possession independent of anyone. It is a gift for which we are beholden to God. If Satan's plan had been selected in the pre-mortal existence, we would not have had that gift.
 

Furthermore, this gift is not bestowed freely upon everyone without regard to merit. The demons do not possess it, because they were rebellious spirits who were cast out of our Father’s presence.

Edited October 3, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[blarsen]

12 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I would challenge your assumption that agency is an inherent possession “independent of anyone or any group.” We are repeatedly taught in the Church that agency is a gift bestowed upon us by a loving Heavenly Father. See, for example, the “Agency” entry in “True to the Faith,” a gospel reference book published by the Church and accessible on the Church’s website or on the “Gospel Library” app for mobile devices. 
 

Thus, agency is not an inherent possession independent of anyone. It is a gift for which we are beholden to God. If Satan's plan had been selected in the pre-mortal existence, we would not have had that gift.
 

Furthermore, this gift is not bestowed freely upon everyone without regard to merit. The demons do not possess it, because they were rebellious spirits who were cast out of our Father’s presence.

I see my free agency or free-will  as a function of my intelligence, which to my LDS understanding is eternal.  The latter (intelligence) presupposes the former (my free will or free agency).  Again, that''s what intelligence does . . . it is free-ranging.  Now it is true that I can't do everything I think of doing or want to do.  But that is a separate topic.  

It is true that we are beholden to God in this sphere that He has created for us, if we want to get back in His presence.  But we still have the free-agency to not fulfill these requirements and even not to want to be back in His presence.    I.e., my free agency is an inherent possession, but our use of it is certainly NOT independent of anyone.  I never claimed that.  Even if you call it 'agency', alone, how we use our agency still affects others for good, neutral or ill.

Notice your mentioning how Satan's plan had been rejected by us in the pre-mortal existence.  The ability to make that choice was a function of the free-agency we already had in that sphere.  If God only gave us our 'agency'  whenl we came into this world, how did we make that pre-mortal choice??  God gave us a new sphere to operate in where we could exercise our free agency, and the stakes were raised where our choices have even more impact on our eternal prospects and on those around us.

And it's not that demons don't have free agency, they simply have not been given the gift to exercise it as mortals in this sphere.

A corollary to my view, is that our 'free agency'  and our ability to act can be progressively restricted in this sphere by bad choices.  You can certainly see this with the 3rd of the host that was cast out.  And one effect might be that we become blind to righteous value.  A very scary prospect.

Edited October 3, 2019 by blarsen

[Scott Lloyd]

Just now, blarsen said:

I see my free agency or free-will  as a function of my intelligence, which to my LDS understanding is eternal.  The latter (intelligence) presupposes the former (my free will or free agency).  Again, that''s what intelligence does . . . it is free-ranging.  Now it is true that I can't do everything I think of doing or want to do.  But that is a separate topic.  

It is true that we are beholden to God in this sphere that He has created for us, if we want to get back in His presence.  But we still have the free-agency to not fulfill these requirements and even not to want to be back in His presence.    I.e., my free agency is an inherent possession, but our use of it is certainly NOT independent of anyone.  I never claimed that.  Even if you call it 'agency', alone, how we use our agency still affects others for good, neutral or ill.

Notice your mentioning how Satan's plan had been rejected by us in the pre-mortal existence.  The ability to make that choice was a function of the free-agency we already had in that sphere.  If God only gave us our 'agency'  whenl we came into this world, how did we make that pre-mortal choice??  God gave us a new sphere to operate in where we could exercise our free agency, and the stakes were raised where our choices have even more impact on our eternal prospects and on those around us.

And it's not that demons don't have free agency, they simply have not been given the gift to exercise it as mortals in this sphere.

A coralary to my view, is that our 'free agency'  and our ability to act can be progressively restricted in this sphere by bad choices.  You can certainly see this with the 3rd of the host that was cast out.

I didn’t say God only gave us our agency just before we came here. But He did give it to us. We did not possess autonomy then, and we don’t now. 
 

[blarsen]

4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I didn’t say God only gave us our agency just before we came here. But He did give it to us. We did not possess autonomy then, and we don’t now. 
 

I'm still wondering how you address the doctrinal assertion that we are eternal intelligences?  And how you would even define intelligences?

Free agency/free will are not necessarily synonymous with autonomy. Having and exercising free will/agency in no way guarantees successful outcomes for ourselves or those who might be affected by our choices.  Different subject.

My view is that free will/agency goes hand-in-hand with intelligence, as does faith, as Hugh Nibley has noted.  That God created our spirits would mean that he has brought us into a more demanding arena where we operate our intelligence along with our free will.  That God created this mortal sphere and our mortal bodies means basically the same thing.  This sphere is even more demanding and has greater consequences, but we can still use our intelligence and free agency as to how we are going to think and act in this new sphere.  I guess I could agree that God created us in such a way for us  to be able to exercise  a good portion of our natural free-will.  He could have created us with much more awareness and capability, or in a much more limited fashion that might restrict our choices and even the range of our intellectual/emotional efforts.

I'm looking at the problem from simple logical analysis of the commonly understood meanings of these categories (intelligence, free-will/agency, faith) and am making a meager attempt to understand what they are. And my view is that if the doctrinal view is somehow at odds/variance with a logical analysis of these terms and their common meanings, this implies we may have incomplete information or understanding in the doctrinal realm. 

A psychopath (genetic deficiencies in their pre-frontal lobes, etc.?) or someone with borderline personality disorder may be limited in their perceptions and hence, their choices, but they still have free will/agency within that limited sphere.  And there are a lot of conditions and effects/results in this life that can limit the range of operation of our free-will/agency.  So back to the original OP, I think free will/agency remains intact but can be severely restricted, redirected and dampened  by various conditions in this life.  These conditions can be caused by genetic anomalies, arrested development due to one thing or another, the actions of others, and so on.

[CV75]

God gives us agency but we choose to receive it or not, the latter being condemnation (D&C 93:30-32). I'm thinking this happens by degrees in a progressive manner as He places us where we can see Him and exercise faith to see Him and receive the light more in greater and greater fulness. The scriptural emphasis seems to be that this began in the Garden of Eden, but I think that is in the record about this world, or the second estate where our spirits receive physical bodies. We gain more agency as we progress in this life and continue to to that beyond, so I'm thinking this process must have begun when we were new spirits and whatever we were, or whatever intelligence is, before that.

[Ahab]

36 minutes ago, blarsen said:

I'm still wondering how you address the doctrinal assertion that we are eternal intelligences?  And how you would even define intelligences?

I'm glad you're still trying to figure this out and I still have some more ideas for you to consider.  I suggest that you start by thinking of intelligences as some kind of living being that has intelligence, whatever kind of being that is.  From there I suggest that you consider how there are all kinds of living beings with each kind having some level or degree of intelligence.  Some with more than others and some with less than others, and with one having the most intelligence while another kind has the least degree of intelligence as any other living being.  From there I suggest that you wonder how each individual of each kind of being came into existence.  Did each kind of being always exist with each kind reproducing itself in some way to produce more individuals while that kind of being itself has always existed, or did each kind of being come into existence by some means and before that moment there were no individuals of those kinds of living beings anywhere in existence?  From there I would ponder more about our kind of  being.  Did our kind always exist or was there ever a time when none of our kind existed?  And how does our kind rank in intelligence when compared to all other kinds of living beings?  Are we the most intelligent kind or is there some other kind that has more intelligence than we do, a completely separate kind other than the kind of being we are?  And how do we do it?  How do we create another intelligent being that is the same kind of being we are?  How do we reproduce?  Do we have an actual Father and Mother who create us as they reproduce themselves or do we come into existence in some other way?

Good things to ponder.  I still think about things like that from time to time and even though I am comfortable with what I know right now I still can't wait to know more and do more to help create some more of us.

Edited October 4, 2019 by Ahab