Marriage covenants

[Calm]

1 hour ago, changed said:

 

Do you believe it is fair that men marry more than one wife, while women are not allowed to eternally marry more than one husband?

 

There is no unfairness eternally as far as I can tell because all are sealed once dead the same way, man or woman.

Women are being sealed to more than one husband, both living (exceptions are granted to widows and I have heard of even one case where the woman was divorced with children involved, but I can't personally confirm that one) and dead (every woman once dead is sealed to all husbands just as men are sealed to all wives).

We are not taught sealings mean something different for women than men...plus there is a man involved in each of those second or more sealings, so why would it be different for them than other men even if women were different?

What this means eternally, I don't know, but if the justification for men having multiple wives is it is unfair to require them to choose among those they love, then the same rule would apply to women, would it not?  God being no respector of persons; all are alike unto God are they not? bond or free, male or female?

Edited November 12, 2018 by Calm

[Jane_Doe]

12 hours ago, changed said:

 

He is not 100% mine - I have had to deal with adultery...  

My heart breaks with this.  I've seen in my own life the way adultery wrecks relationships and people lives.  My heart goes out to you.    I've seen it in LDS couples, mainstream Christians, athiests, and so many more.  This isn't something that's caused by saying certain words or attending a certain church.  

[LoudmouthMormon]

11 hours ago, changed said:

21% of atheists have been divorced
21% of Catholics and Lutherans have been divorced
24% of Mormons have been divorced
25% of mainstream Protestants have been divorced
29% of Baptists have been divorced
24% of nondenominational, independent Protestants have been divorced

Looks like atheists have the lowest divorce rates....

It's because when people go through divorces, they tend to find God and join a church.

No, I have no idea if that's the reason or not.  But my guess is as good as yours.  And, if it's at least possibly true, it might help you out changed.  Sorry to hear about your experiences.

Edited November 12, 2018 by LoudmouthMormon

[LoudmouthMormon]

(dup)

Edited November 12, 2018 by LoudmouthMormon

[Maestrophil]

12 hours ago, changed said:

Thanks Tacenda... yes, anyone who is curious can go back and read my first thousand or so posts - back when I was a temple-going TBM... all my temple-going, scripture reading, calling/volunteer work / doing all the right things, and this was repaid with ??? what blessings again???   abused children?? unfaithful "high priest" husband???   I guess no one really understands polygamy - understands what those marriage covenants really are -  until they have personally experienced "sharing" their spouse...  betrayal when you are supposed to be blessed?  I am supposed to want to be eternally trapped in some polygamous marriage??? Nothing but betrayal going on over here.

Changed,

 

I am so sorry that you have had to bear the burden of the poor choices and agency of others who should know better.  Your pain and confusion are totally justified.  Having been trough a cheating spouse in a temple marriage myself, I understand the pain, confusion, and unfairness of it all.  

I am now remarried (sealed) and my wife and I petitioned to have my old sealing cancelled because neither my wife nor myself wanted me sealed to a second spouse.  Church leaders asked us to consider our request carefully, as they don't like to tamper with sealings etc, but when we came back and said we prayerfully considered and still wanted a cancellation, the First Presidency approved the dissolution of my previous sealing.  All that to say, The Church won't force anyone into anything.  Remember, even when earthly polygamy was practiced in the Church, a man and his wives were called into it - many to their great dread (women AND men dreaded it) and any who took on polygamy without being called were disciplined by the Church - being excommunicated for adultery and apostasy if they did not follow the brethren.  (EDITED to add - my point here being, that polygamy is not at all sanctioned in the Latter-day Saint marriage ceremony - A total vow to only have sexually relationships with your husband or wife is entered into, as well as accepting the person as your husband or wife thus affirming that you are to be loyal to them.  Polygamy/adultery etc = disfellowshipment/excommunication)

I know that does not necessarily make it easier to understand or accept the practice of polygamy, it is a hard principle to accept for even many very faithful members.  I pray you will find comfort wherever your journey leads you, and I pray you will be able to reconcile your hurt with your previous love for the gospel in time.  Holding on to, and re-discovering the strength of my faith after the crushing blow of infidelity and dissolution of a temple marriage and all that goes with it, is what has allowed me to find joy again.

God bless!

 

MP

Edited November 12, 2018 by Maestrophil

[bluebell]

11 hours ago, changed said:

Divorce rates...

https://www.thoughtco.com/divorce-rates-for-atheists-248494

 

21% of atheists have been divorced
21% of Catholics and Lutherans have been divorced
24% of Mormons have been divorced
25% of mainstream Protestants have been divorced
29% of Baptists have been divorced
24% of nondenominational, independent Protestants have been divorced

Looks like atheists have the lowest divorce rates....

That's not really surprising since I think that many atheists choose to live together without marriage.  

But I would love to see where these statistics come from because from what I've read elsewhere, temple marriage divorce rates are around 6-8%.

[Glenn101]

12 hours ago, changed said:

Divorce rates...

https://www.thoughtco.com/divorce-rates-for-atheists-248494

 

21% of atheists have been divorced
21% of Catholics and Lutherans have been divorced
24% of Mormons have been divorced
25% of mainstream Protestants have been divorced
29% of Baptists have been divorced
24% of nondenominational, independent Protestants have been divorced

Looks like atheists have the lowest divorce rates....

The statistics are interesting but really do not tell the whole story. From what I have read, atheists and millennials are much less likely to marry than other segments of society and are more likey to cohabitate. An alarming statistic is the sharply rising divorce rate among the graying generation, those over fifty.

As for the religious groups, I am wondering how the rates would compare between regular church attendees and those who are nominally of a particular sect but not active.

Glenn

[smac97]

Some information about Latter-day Saint Marriages (not vouching for the sources, just putting 'em out there):

Here:

Quote

The General Social Survey asks whether a respondent’s religious affiliation is the same as when they were 16 years old. Differentiating Mormons who have maintained their faith into adulthood and those who had abandoned their faith, the divorce rate was 1 in 10 for the former, and 1 in 4 for the latter group. Please note that this is correlation, not causation. There is no suggestion that leaving church affiliation was the cause of divorce.

Additionally, the survey reveals that Mormons married to other Mormons were far more likely on average to be happy in their marriages. Only 1.6% of Mormon-Mormon marriages were identified as unhappy, with 71% identified as ‘very happy’. As reflected in Dave Whittle’s answer, Mormons married to those not of their faith reported startling high dissatisfaction with their marriages.

Divorce among Mormons who marry in the temple has been historically reported as 6%, but that is an apple to oranges comparison since a temple solemnization or sealing does not correspond directly to a civil marriage and that is true for divorce as well. It is not uncommon for a couple to have a civil divorce, but still be ‘married’ in the eyes of the church, since dissolution of the sealing is usually only pursued upon the remarriage of the female spouse. What you get is ‘eventual consistency’, since the dissolution of the sealing usually happens sometime after the civil divorce, but in a certain percentage of cases (how many is not known) a ‘temple divorce’ never occurs. Still, these exceptions are comparative rare, so the accuracy of the 6% figure is not perfect, but nevertheless probably close to reality.

In the final analysis, divorce among Mormons who have maintained their faith from youth into adulthood, is between 6–11%, while the national average was 30–32% within the first decade of marriage.

Here:

Quote

Brigham Young University professor Daniel K. Judd computed in the year 2000 that only 6% of those Mormons who marry in a temple ceremony subsequently go through a temple divorce. This is a small fraction of the rate in the general American population. ₃Unfortunately, the value may not be accurate:

• Most Mormons who have their marriage sealed in a temple ceremony and who subsequently divorce do so in a civil ceremony. This avoids the rather complex temple "cancellation of sealing" procedures. Thus, their divorce is not counted in the above figure.

• Some Mormons marry in a temple ceremony, divorce in a civil procedure and subsequently remarry in a second temple ceremony. This would count as two temple marriages and zero temple divorces -- thus reducing the apparent divorce rate.

Overall, the Mormon divorce rate appears to be no different from the average American divorce rate. A 1999 study by Barna Research of nearly 4,000 U.S. adults showed that 24% of Mormon marriages end in divorce -- a number statistically equal to the divorce rate among all Americans. ₅ Members of non-denominational churches (typically Fundamentalist in teaching) and born-again Christians experience a significantly higher divorce rate; Agnostics and Atheists have much a lower rate. ₆More info.

This data is supported by an earlier study the National Survey of Families and Households. It found that about 26% of both Mormons and non-Mormons had experienced at least one divorce at some time during their life.

This simple statistic obscures an interesting factor: Mormons who marry fellow believers have an extremely low divorce rate:

"A 1993 study published in Demography [magazine] showed that Mormons marrying within their church are least likely of all Americans to become divorced. Only 13 percent of LDS couples have divorced after five years of marriage, compared with 20 percent for religiously homogamist unions among Catholics and Protestants and 27 percent among Jews. However, when a Mormon marries outside his or her denomination, the divorce rate soars to 40 percent -- second only to mixed-faith marriages involving a Jewish spouse (42 percent)." ₇

One might speculate that the religious and cultural differences between Mormons and non-Mormons (and between Jews and non-Jews) is often so great that the chances of a successful, harmonious marriage are much reduced.

Here:

Quote

The General Social Survey (GSS) asks participants their religious affiliation at the time of the survey (variable = “relig”) and when they were 16 (variable = “relig16”).  If respondents indicated “Mormon” as their religion, that gets coded into separate variables (Mormon at present = 64 in the variable “other”; Mormon at 16 = 64 in the variable “oth16”).  Combining these two variables, it’s possible to isolate individuals who were Mormon at 16 but have since left the religion (there are 186 such individuals in the combined 1972-2014 GSS data set).

Of those 186 individuals, 46 had never married, which means they were never at a risk of divorcing.  Of the remaining 140 who had married, 34 were currently divorced or separated at the time of their participation in the survey, for a divorce/separation percentage of 24%.  Compare that to individuals who were Mormon at 16 and still Mormon at the time of the survey: their divorce/separation percentage was 11%.  In other words, individuals who left the Mormon Church were more than twice as likely to divorce than did those who stayed.

This is somewhat problematic for several reasons.  First, the variable for marital status (“marital”) does not indicate whether the respondents have ever divorced (there is a variable that asks that, but it’s not included in every wave of the survey).  So, it is likely that the percentage of respondents indicating they are currently divorced is lower than the percentage who have ever divorced.  Second, the GSS does not include a variable indicating when people left a religion or switched their religious affiliation.  As a result, we can’t say that those who left the religion did so when they were married.  Third, we don’t know what the cause of divorce or separation was.  The higher rate of divorce among those who left the LDS Church could be due to a number of other factors and not exclusively the result of them having left the LDS Church.

Taking all of the above into account, data from the General Social Survey suggest that about 1 in 4 people who were Mormon at 16 but have since left the religion have divorced or separated from their spouse, versus about 1 in 10 who remained Mormon.

In the interest of looking just a little further into this, I also examined whether marital satisfaction was higher among Mormons married to Mormons (variable in the GSS is “spoth”) versus Mormons married to non-Mormons.  Turns out, marital satisfaction is significantly and substantially higher among Mormons married to other Mormons. Of the 315 Mormons who were married to other Mormons, 71% said their marriage was very happy, 28% said it was pretty happy, just 1.6% said it was not too happy.  Of the 69 Mormons married to non-Mormons, 54% said their marriage was very happy, 36% said it was pretty happy, and 10% said it was not too happy.  Admittedly, these numbers are rather small, but they are sufficient to find that the differences in marital satisfaction are statistically significant (Chi-Square = 17.169, p < .001).  Again, these numbers are not a direct answer to the question since it isn’t clear whether those who are married to non-Mormons are married to people who used to be Mormon or someone who never was Mormon.  Even so, they do indicate that Mormons who are not married to other Mormons have substantially lower marital satisfaction than do Mormons who are married to Mormons, which would likely increase the odds of divorce and separation.

Overall, it does not appear as though there is a readily available citation to answer your question.  However, evidence does seem to suggest that the odds of divorce increase when one member of a couple leaves the LDS Church.

Here:

Quote

National demographic studies indicate that couples in which both partners are Latter-day Saints (and who marry in a Latter-day Saint temple) have the lowest divorce rate among all U.S. social and religious groups studied. "The divorce rates for Latter-day Saints who marry in the temple are 5.4 percent for men and 6.5 percent for women." (These may not be the most up-to-date figures available.) But statistics indicate that inter-faith marriages in which one partner is a Latter-day Saint and the other is not are more likely to end in divorce than other interfaith religious combinations studied, except for Jewish/non-Jewish couples. The general Latter-day Saint divorce rate is at or slightly lower than the national average for all marriages in which both partners are Latter-day Saints, if the figures include temple and non-temple marriages and both active and non-active Latter-day Saints. These statistics underscore the important distinction Latter-day Saints make between temple marriages (believed to be eternal and valid beyond death) and non-temple marriages (valid only in this life, comparable to civil marriage or marriage in other denominations). [Sources: Daniel K. Judd. Religion, Mental Health and the Latter-day Saints. Online article about book. Other sources citing the 6% Latter-day Saint temple marriage divorce rate: William Lobdell, Holy Matrimony: In an Era of Divorce Mormon Temple Weddings are Built to Lastin Los Angeles Times, 8 April 2000; Dave Condren, New Temple Marks Origin of Mormons in Buffalo News, 27 March 2000.]

Similar results were found in a 1993 study:

A 1993 study published in Demography showed that Mormons marrying within their church are least likely of all Americans to become divorced. Only 13 percent of LDS couples have divorced after five years of marriage, compared with 20 percent for religiously homogamist unions among Catholics and Protestants and 27 percent among Jews.

However, when a Mormon marries outside his or her denomination, the divorce rate soars to 40 percent -- second only to mixed-faith marriages involving a Jewish spouse (42 percent).

Citing a variety of other studies, Duke found that Mormons are the least likely to cohabitate outside of marriage -- 8.2 percent compared with 20 percent to 24 percent for Protestants, 23.1 percent for Catholics, 32.5 percent for Jews and 44.8 percent for nonreligious Americans.

[Source: Bob Mims Mormons: high conservativism, low divorce, big growth, 6 March 1999, Salt Lake Tribune.] 

Thanks,

-Smac

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Some information about Latter-day Saint Marriages (not vouching for the sources, just putting 'em out there):

Here:

Here:

Here:

Here:

Thanks,

-Smac

It seems weird that the first quote mentions that temple marriages where the couple divorced, but a sealing cancellation wasn't sought, would not be reported in the divorce statistics.  I've never known any member that did not consider a couple divorced when their divorce went through, regardless of what eventually happened or didn't with their sealing.

I saw another quote somewhere else that said that without a sealing cancelation, that these couples were still considered to be married in the eyes of the church.  Uh, no.  The church considers them very much divorced, even if they never get their sealing cancelled.

[smac97]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It seems weird that the first quote mentions that temple marriages where the couple divorced, but a sealing cancellation wasn't sought, would not be reported in the divorce statistics.  I've never known any member that did not consider a couple divorced when their divorce went through, regardless of what eventually happened or didn't with their sealing.

Yes, that was my thought as well.

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I saw another quote somewhere else that said that without a sealing cancelation, that these couples were still considered to be married in the eyes of the church.  Uh, no.  The church considers them very much divorced, even if they never get their sealing cancelled.

Yep.

Thanks,

-Smac

[RevTestament]

On 11/11/2018 at 7:48 AM, changed said:

 

I am in a mixed-faith marriage (my husband is LDS, I have left the church).  Yes, it is a serious point for me - it concerns my marriage (or lack thereof).  It feels as if there were no real vows made in the temple - it feels like the vows were to a church, not to a person... no "you may now kiss the bride", no "love cherish and honor one another and no one else", just a vow to the church, a vow of polygamy.  

I went in - not knowing what what was going to be said, not knowing what I would be required to "promise"...

Real covenants, real vows - done with full free agency - include knowing what you are signing, knowing what you are promising.  

What makes a contract valid?  If there are hidden agendas... I did not know what would be said, I did not know all the details of the "new and everlasting covenant", I was lied to.  Deceit.  Duress.  

 

Eternal vows are to Christ as His bride. Earthly vows are until death do you part. As mentioned there is definitely a vow not to have sexual relations with any but those to whom you are lawfully wedded for part of the earthly part. Do you not remember that? Your husband has vowed to be chaste and love you, and not to commit adultery. It is a little different from the civil wedding ceremony, but your concerns are unwarranted. I don't know what you thought you were lied to about. If you do not wish to be in a polygamous relationship, do not give your consent, then your husband would be in the wrong to enter one. I don't see any deceit there. Nor duress. No one has twisted your arm to force you into a polygamous relationship have they? If your husband did so, the Church would excommunicate him. 

[CV75]

On 11/11/2018 at 10:48 AM, changed said:

I am in a mixed-faith marriage (my husband is LDS, I have left the church).  Yes, it is a serious point for me - it concerns my marriage (or lack thereof).  It feels as if there were no real vows made in the temple - it feels like the vows were to a church, not to a person... no "you may now kiss the bride", no "love cherish and honor one another and no one else", just a vow to the church, a vow of polygamy.  

I went in - not knowing what what was going to be said, not knowing what I would be required to "promise"...

Real covenants, real vows - done with full free agency - include knowing what you are signing, knowing what you are promising.  

What makes a contract valid?  If there are hidden agendas... I did not know what would be said, I did not know all the details of the "new and everlasting covenant", I was lied to.  Deceit.  Duress.  

Write your own vows, go to a nice place in public or private, hire an officiator if you must, and share them with each other. Problem solved!

[JLHPROF]

19 hours ago, Calm said:

Plus a loving God would never force anyone to do anything, so I am not seeing the logic of being eternally trapped.  Even if someone decides to stay married in mortality for the children or other reasons, if they do not desire to be married eternally to their sealed spouse, why would God think of forcing them?  I know a few women who did not wish to be eternally married to their spouses at the time they told me, none of them expected to be forced to do so. They believed God was watching out for them and would ensure they were happy in the next life and that they would receive all the blessings they wanted.

I know there are some sick men out there who think if a sealing isn't canceled, they somehow have power over their exwives, that their exwives belong to them (my exbrother-in-law was one of them according to my sister),but that kind of attitude towards others (people as property to be controlled)  has them heading for the telestial even if the Church isn't aware of their behaviour and they look 'good' on paper, so to speak.  There are probably some women who think that way about ex husbands as well, that as long as they don't ask for their sealing to be canceled, their exhusbands will be forced to be married to them in the eternities.  How can heaven be heaven if individuals don't care what their spouses want, how can they be one with each other and one with God?  That would be hell and therefore exaltation isn't awaiting anyone who thinks that way.

 

5 hours ago, bluebell said:

It seems weird that the first quote mentions that temple marriages where the couple divorced, but a sealing cancellation wasn't sought, would not be reported in the divorce statistics.  I've never known any member that did not consider a couple divorced when their divorce went through, regardless of what eventually happened or didn't with their sealing.

I saw another quote somewhere else that said that without a sealing cancelation, that these couples were still considered to be married in the eyes of the church.  Uh, no.  The church considers them very much divorced, even if they never get their sealing cancelled.

Well, you've known one now.

Seriously, when did we start ignoring scripture because it makes us feel bad.

Matt 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Brigham Young granted many divorces including cancellations.  He was clear they weren't worth any more than the paper they were written on.  Temple covenants cannot be cancelled if nobody broke them.  I  don't believe the majority of Church divorces will be valid in the next life.

The Church is giving everyone their agency.  But eternal covenants have to be broken to be cancelled.

[bluebell]

51 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

 

Well, you've known one now.

Seriously, when did we start ignoring scripture because it makes us feel bad.

Matt 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Brigham Young granted many divorces including cancellations.  He was clear they weren't worth any more than the paper they were written on.  Temple covenants cannot be cancelled if nobody broke them.  I  don't believe the majority of Church divorces will be valid in the next life.

The Church is giving everyone their agency.  But eternal covenants have to be broken to be cancelled.

We’ll agree to disagree. 😊

[JLHPROF]

30 minutes ago, bluebell said:

We’ll agree to disagree. 😊

Well you're just so darned agreeable.  😉

But these aren't teachings that came from me. 

Edited November 13, 2018 by JLHPROF

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Well you're just so darned agreeable.  😉

But these aren't teachings that came from me. 

True, but I don’t believe this interpretation of the teachings came from God. 

[Kenngo1969]

Well, as a wise soul once said, "Ya hafta monog befar ya kin polyg!"  And "If'n yer only monogin', thar ain't no sense  worryin' 'bout polygin'!  Ya only polyg when ya polyg, y'dig?!"

–Dr. Festus Doofus, noted Professor of Family Life, University of Southern Nowhere, aka University of Southern Nowhar

[MustardSeed]

I worry about polyg’n because it makes us all look like absolute creeps. 

Like it or not, many people think we actually are into that stuff. And it’s not the multiple partners that the world dislikes.  Trust me, swinging is very alive and well in suburbia. It’s the control, weakness, and predatory nature of it all that people have problems with.  That and the 80s fashion of course. 

[bluebell]

Just now, MustardSeed said:

I worry about polyg’n because it makes us all look like absolute creeps. 

Like it or not, many people think we actually are into that stuff. And it’s not the multiple partners that the world dislikes.  Trust me, swinging is very alive and well in suburbia. It’s the control, weakness, and predatory nature of it all that people have problems with.  That and the 80s fashion of course. 

There are many polygamists that don't live like the FLDS though.  They wear regular clothes and their relationships are not marked by weakness or predatory behavior.  It's helpful to remember that polygamy doesn't have to be lived a certain way.  

[MustardSeed]

 

11 minutes ago, bluebell said:

There are many polygamists that don't live like the FLDS though.  They wear regular clothes and their relationships are not marked by weakness or predatory behavior.  It's helpful to remember that polygamy doesn't have to be lived a certain way.  

Yes helpful. 

Flds ruined it for many of us who might like the idea of a night off....  but can’t get the image of the Elaine Bennis hair out of their mind.

[Kenngo1969]

21 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I worry about polyg’n because it makes us all look like absolute creeps. 

As opposed to serial monogamy or shacking up without benefit of marriage?  The only real difference between polygamy (polygyny, to use the technical sociological term) and serial monogamy and shacking up is that the latter two of them are accepted by the society at large, while the first isn't.  Just sayin'!

[MustardSeed]

16 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

As opposed to serial monogamy or shacking up without benefit of marriage?  The only real difference between polygamy (polygyny, to use the technical sociological term) and serial monogamy and shacking up is that the latter two of them are accepted by the society at large, while the first isn't.  Just sayin'!

I know what you’re saying but I would hazard a guess that most people think FLDS lifestyle polygamy really is super creepy.  The things you mention are not ok to you and I but without the ick factor.  Well, at least, to me.  If I see a documentary about people who live together without marriage I’ll fall asleep.  If I see a documentary about FLDS polygamy , then I’m in a bad mood and feel a deep need to brush my teeth.

[The Nehor]

14 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

 

Well, you've known one now.

Seriously, when did we start ignoring scripture because it makes us feel bad.

Matt 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Brigham Young granted many divorces including cancellations.  He was clear they weren't worth any more than the paper they were written on.  Temple covenants cannot be cancelled if nobody broke them.  I  don't believe the majority of Church divorces will be valid in the next life.

The Church is giving everyone their agency.  But eternal covenants have to be broken to be cancelled.

The question is whether an individual broke the sealing covenant. They get the blessings even if their spouse did not keep said covenants. This does not mean they are still eternally bound together. They cannot be. At least one of them did not live up to the covenants that are a prerequisite for that state.

[JLHPROF]

12 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The question is whether an individual broke the sealing covenant. They get the blessings even if their spouse did not keep said covenants. This does not mean they are still eternally bound together. They cannot be. At least one of them did not live up to the covenants that are a prerequisite for that state.

That's what I said. There has to be a broken covenant for a divorce or sealing cancellation to be valid.  If neither sealed spouse broke a temple or marriage covenant I agree with Brigham.

And I take the Savior's warning seriously.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

That's what I said. There has to be a broken covenant for a divorce or sealing cancellation to be valid.  If neither sealed spouse broke a temple or marriage covenant I agree with Brigham.

And I take the Savior's warning seriously.

Why would a divorce be occurring if no covenant was broken?