Report on Catholic Abuse = Cynicism Spreading?

[smac97]

29 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Being celibate doesn't turn someone into a child molester and getting married wouldn't "cure" a child molester.

I have to agree with this.  I know many good and decent people who are celibate and who are not a threat to children.

That said, I think the unique form of lifelong celibacy practiced by Catholic priests may be a contributing factor.  See, e.g., these remarks by Robert Smith:

Quote

The Pennsylvania disclosures are only the most recent.  They are not necessarily more horrendous than anything which has gone on before.  In Ireland, for example, where the RC priesthood was once held in high esteem, the massive sexual misconduct of those priests has left the entire country deeply shaken.  The RC Church has had this problem for centuries now.  And even aside from all the pedophilia, many priests have long been sexually involved with fellow priests and adult parishioners.  It is only in modern times that we are able to examine the problem with credible dispassion.

A few years back, I wrote to RC Bishop John Wester (then of the SLC Diocese), saying, among other things:

Quote

I have read both Maureen Dowd’s April 9, 2010, column and your reply of yesterday (both in the Salt Lake Tribune), and I feel that you should have been far more cautious and open to her comments in your reply.  Permit me to explain why.

It is not only Dowd who has suggested celibacy as a major cause of the extraordinary pedophilia crisis within Catholicism, but a number of experts have attributed the problem to a lack of mature psycho-sexual development in many priests who have never dated or been married. 

Bishop Wester's response  was to push back and defend celibacy, which is merely a rule adopted by the Church a thousand years ago, and which is not a moral requirement of Christianity.  Unless and until the RC Church gets rid of celibacy and begins requiring that clergy be married (happily married), this problem will continue to plague the RC community.

This article, written by Father Roger J. Landry with the Diocese of Fall River, Massachusetts, includes statements indicating widespread sexual dysfunction in the Catholic priesthood, including extensive homosexual misconduct, pedophilia and "ephebophilia."  Are candidates entering the priesthood bringing these dysfunctions with them through the front door, or are these dysfunctions arising afterward, with celibacy being a signifcant causative factor?

I don't know.  I think research and analysis needs to be done (or, if such research has been done, we need to find it and discuss it).

I will once again express my sympathy and support for our wonderful Catholic brothers and sisters who are coping with this very difficult issue in their community.  

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited August 17, 2018 by smac97

[Calm]

Quote

When my bishop asked me this (probably age 12ish) I had no idea what he was talking about. He had to explain it.

Given what is currently taught in schools and on TV and movies, is there a 12 year old in the States not homeschooled that wouldn't know what this was these days? (Just curious, not suggesting that such makes it an appropriate question).

Edited August 17, 2018 by Calm

[rongo]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

Given what is currently taught in schools and on TV and movies, is there a 12 year old in the States not homeschooled that wouldn't know what this was these days?

Yes. There are teenagers who really don't know what the Word of Wisdom is, or that they are supposed to pay tithing as youth on income.  

I've asked parents to talk to their children in preparation for interviews so that they can explain these things. That makes it more likely that you can simply ask the simple questions and be confident that they know what they mean. 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

Being celibate doesn't turn someone into a child molester and getting married wouldn't "cure" a child molester.

True, but a good portion of the abuse is of post pubescents which usually means that while they are child molestors they are not pedophiles. They are experiencing normal sexual attraction in a predatory and evil way. That can be mitigated to a degree by normal sexuality. Not a guarantee but the possibility is there.

[Calm]

15 minutes ago, rongo said:

Yes. There are teenagers who really don't know what the Word of Wisdom is, or that they are supposed to pay tithing as youth on income.  

I've asked parents to talk to their children in preparation for interviews so that they can explain these things. That makes it more likely that you can simply ask the simple questions and be confident that they know what they mean. 

Having a handout with the required questions and common topics kids ask about given out to parents a month or more before an interview might be a useful requirement t to more standardize interviews in the Church.

[rongo]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

Having a handout with the required questions and common topics kids ask about given out to parents a month or more before an interview might be a useful requirement t to more standardize interviews in the Church.

Yeah. Make the test as open-book as possible.  

[bsjkki]

30 minutes ago, rongo said:

Yes. There are teenagers who really don't know what the Word of Wisdom is, or that they are supposed to pay tithing as youth on income.  

I've asked parents to talk to their children in preparation for interviews so that they can explain these things. That makes it more likely that you can simply ask the simple questions and be confident that they know what they mean. 

I think this is why parents should sit in on interviews with their youth. When they are new Beehives and Deacons, it would be better to have a parent in the room to help explain things. This would also help the parent know what things need to be explained. I wish I had been there when my kids were first interviewed.

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Given what is currently taught in schools and on TV and movies, is there a 12 year old in the States not homeschooled that wouldn't know what this was these days? (Just curious, not suggesting that such makes it an appropriate question).

I think pretty much all kids who regularly have contact with other kids without adult supervision understand about such things.  However, there are probably quite a few of the tweens that don't know the correct name for it though (that probably goes for other things as well).  Kids are all about slang terms.

[Danzo]

6 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I agree that we "ought to be able to trust clergy" but that doesn't mean we should.

I've gotta admit, I'm a bit surprised you take the position that a catholic priest should be able to hold one-on-one meetings, behind closed doors with youth and children. I would imagine that is a minority view in this country

Why does everyone think that someone disagreeing with them puts them in the minority?

What difference does being in the "minority view" or "Majority View" make anyway?

Why do people keep using the  the Argumentum ad populum?

 

[USU78]

I am unhappy that the scale of abuse by adults of children/tweens/teens has been so grotesquely burlesqued in the media and, unhappily, by folks on this very board.

How can anyone have forgotten this:  https://www.cbsnews.com/news/has-media-ignored-sex-abuse-in-school/ ?

Quote

 

In accordance with a requirement of President Bush's No Child Left Behind Act, in 2002 the Department of Education carried out a study of sexual abuse in the school system.

Hofstra University researcher Charol Shakeshaft looked into the problem, and the first thing that came to her mind when Education Week reported on the study were the daily headlines about the Catholic Church.

"[T]hink the Catholic Church has a problem?" she said. "The physical sexual abuse of students in schools is likely more than 100 times the abuse by priests."

So, in order to better protect children, did media outlets start hounding the worse menace of the school systems, with headlines about a "Nationwide Teacher Molestation Cover-up" and by asking "Are Ed Schools Producing Pedophiles?"

No, they didn't. That treatment was reserved for the Catholic Church, while the greater problem in the schools was ignored altogether.

As the National Catholic Register's reporter Wayne Laugesen points out, the federal report said 422,000 California public-school students would be victims before graduation — a number that dwarfs the state's entire Catholic-school enrollment of 143,000.

 

We owe our Catholic cousins, as well as LDS Bishops everywhere, an apology.

Scale, people!  

[smac97]

5 minutes ago, USU78 said:

I am unhappy that the scale of abuse by adults of children/tweens/teens has been so grotesquely burlesqued in the media and, unhappily, by folks on this very board.

How can anyone have forgotten this:  https://www.cbsnews.com/news/has-media-ignored-sex-abuse-in-school/ ?

We owe our Catholic cousins, as well as LDS Bishops everywhere, an apology.

Scale, people!  

Wow.  A conspiracy to cover up abuse by Catholic priests is appalling.

What are we to make of a seeming conspiracy to cover up abuse in public schools?

It's almost as if the media holds public schools to a different, lower standard that the Catholic Church.

Now why would the media do that?

Thanks,

-Smac

[USU78]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Wow.  A conspiracy to cover up abuse by Catholic priests is appalling.

What are we to make of a seeming conspiracy to cover up abuse in public schools?

It's almost as if the media holds public schools to a different, lower standard that the Catholic Church.

Now why would the media do that?

Thanks,

-Smac

The purple press' anti-religion, specifically anti-Catholic, bent is nothing new:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Catholicism_in_literature_and_media .  Here's an example of the most recent terrible antiPapist screeds:

 

Quote

 

Another recent and pronounced example of this can be seen from mass-media coverage of the resignation of Pope Benedict XVI. On one such occurrence, Episcopalian Tom Ehrich stated that the Catholic Church is "uninterested in sex abuse scandals beyond their litigation costs, ... stuck in the 19th century, ... providing safe cover for oppression and intolerance, ... against oppressed peoples, ... homophobic." ^[33][34] Although these are themes which are widely used throughout the Western media, this occasion prompted a public response from Springfield, Illinois, Bishop Thomas J. Paprocki titled "Tom Ehrich column promoted religious bigotry" wherein the Bishop stated:

Columnists are indeed entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts. Ehrich got it wrong in several ways. ...I cannot imagine a secular newspaper publishing such hostile vitriol against any other religion except the Catholic church. ...It is untrue and patently malicious to declare that Roman Catholicism is "uninterested in sex abuse scandals beyond their litigation costs". I know of many cases where dioceses have compensated victims long after their claims were legally barred by the statute of limitations.^[35][36]

 

 

[The Nehor]

8 hours ago, USU78 said:

I am unhappy that the scale of abuse by adults of children/tweens/teens has been so grotesquely burlesqued in the media and, unhappily, by folks on this very board.

How can anyone have forgotten this:  https://www.cbsnews.com/news/has-media-ignored-sex-abuse-in-school/ ?

We owe our Catholic cousins, as well as LDS Bishops everywhere, an apology.

Scale, people!  

“Likely more then 100 times worse” in a 12 year old article predating the report we are talking about? In the article it also says more kids are getting sexually abused then the entirety of the Catholic student enrollment conveniently ignoring that Catholic clergy have many more opportunities outside of school. To quote my young niece: “This is weak sauce!”

If you find this out of date vague article convincing you may want to analyze how heavily you let your bias influence what sources you are willing to trust. This level of credulity is downright dangerous.

[Stargazer]

13 hours ago, rongo said:

Yes. There are teenagers who really don't know what the Word of Wisdom is, or that they are supposed to pay tithing as youth on income.  

I've asked parents to talk to their children in preparation for interviews so that they can explain these things. That makes it more likely that you can simply ask the simple questions and be confident that they know what they mean. 

When our twin boys were interviewed by our bishop for their Deacon ordinations, he was astounded at what they didn't know.  So were their mother and I.  It was like we hadn't spoken to them except in grunts and howls from birth until age 12.  

[Stargazer]

11 hours ago, Danzo said:

Why does everyone think that someone disagreeing with them puts them in the minority?

What difference does being in the "minority view" or "Majority View" make anyway?

Why do people keep using the  the Argumentum ad populum?

 

My late wife once met a man who, when he learned she was from Germany, asked her in all seriousness, "Are the drugs there good stuff?"  Like of course everyone does drugs.  Just because he does.  Or maybe his brain was fried, but still.

[Stargazer]

11 hours ago, Danzo said:

Why do people keep using the  the Argumentum ad populum?

Because everyone does it?

Sorry, I couldn't help myself! 🙂 

Edited August 18, 2018 by Stargazer

[USU78]

6 hours ago, The Nehor said:

“Likely more then 100 times worse” in a 12 year old article predating the report we are talking about? In the article it also says more kids are getting sexually abused then the entirety of the Catholic student enrollment conveniently ignoring that Catholic clergy have many more opportunities outside of school. To quote my young niece: “This is weak sauce!”

If you find this out of date vague article convincing you may want to analyze how heavily you let your bias influence what sources you are willing to trust. This level of credulity is downright dangerous.

Apparently the study cited therein is still good soft science:

 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0145213417304064

But that there was some excellent snark. Thanks!

[Tacenda]

19 hours ago, Calm said:

Given what is currently taught in schools and on TV and movies, is there a 12 year old in the States not homeschooled that wouldn't know what this was these days? (Just curious, not suggesting that such makes it an appropriate question).

I rarely here/heard the word masturbation on the streets, or at school, or even in movies. I think the first place I've heard it spoken about was from the church, in interviews, talks or the literature,TBH. 

Edited August 18, 2018 by Tacenda

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I rarely here/heard the word masturbation on the streets, or at school, or even in movies. I think the first place I've heard it spoken about was from the church, in interviews, talks or the literature,TBH. 

I got it in sex ed almost 50 years ago in both California and Illinois.  I would assume some inconsistency over the US back then.  But I am talking about nowadays, I hear the topic referred to in jokes often on TV and movies and I generally avoid R (language annoys me, I can skip the sex scenes easily enough, but the language is pervasive).  I can see it going over younger kids' heads as it is generally not explicit, but more just phrasing.  The term may be unknown or not paid attention to, but the subject?

Edited August 18, 2018 by Calm

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, USU78 said:

Apparently the study cited therein is still good soft science:

 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0145213417304064

But that there was some excellent snark. Thanks!

You are backing these numbers with a Greek study on emotional abuse which is an entirely different animal? What?

[HappyJackWagon]

6 hours ago, Stargazer said:

When our twin boys were interviewed by our bishop for their Deacon ordinations, he was astounded at what they didn't know.  So were their mother and I.  It was like we hadn't spoken to them except in grunts and howls from birth until age 12.  

Most of the time, "what they don't know" is really just the way they interact in a very uncomfortable situation. How often have my kids told me they don't know what they learned in school today? The answer is often. Doesn't mean they don't really know.

But if a kid feels pressured to talk, especially to someone they don't know well, they are likely giving the easiest answers they can muster, and that they think will get them out of the discussion the fastest.

Also, expecting kids to recognize all the same words adults do is a bit of a problem, especially if there is a bishop who tends to get a littler flowery with the way he describes the everlasting and eternal atonement of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To kids that don't talk like that it sounds like gobbled gook.

[why me]

Within the catholic church, there was absolute trust in the priest. No one would believe that they would be involved in such things. One reason why these men were attracted to the priesthood was because they knew they would have trust and the opportunity to be with children. And since a priest's confession would be confidential, certainly took advantage of this too. So, the priest would confess, and then be moved around. Just as a priest who hears a confession could not call the police based on a confession, likewise for these other priests who were child molesters. It became a vicious cycle for the catholic church.

[USU78]

16 hours ago, The Nehor said:

“Likely more then 100 times worse” in a 12 year old article predating the report we are talking about? In the article it also says more kids are getting sexually abused then the entirety of the Catholic student enrollment conveniently ignoring that Catholic clergy have many more opportunities outside of school. To quote my young niece: “This is weak sauce!”

If you find this out of date vague article convincing you may want to analyze how heavily you let your bias influence what sources you are willing to trust. This level of credulity is downright dangerous.

So ... CBS weighs in claiming astoundingly high teacher abuse of students, in numbers that dwarf ecclesiastical abuse of youth parishioners, mental and emotional abuse by teachers with frightening frequency, and here http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/sexual-disorders/lessons-learn-female-educators-who-sexually-abuse-their-students we have a study showing the chance of a student being abused by a teacher at one in 10. 

I don't understand why you would quibble over this. The incidence of ecclesiastical abuse of young people, sexual or emotional, is just not that big, yet fills up a large part of people's thoughts. Why is that? 

[Damien the Leper]

On 8/15/2018 at 10:26 AM, smac97 said:

"Published," I think you mean (I hope you mean 😶 ).

Dunno.  It's not really article-length.

I've never tried to get an article on Mormonism published.  Maybe someday...

Thanks.  I think we need to address these issues, but in the right ways.  Sam Young's McCarthyistic vitriol isn't helping.  Critics of organized religion using these issues as ammunition against organized religion isn't helping.  

Thanks,

-Smac

That doesn't make sense from a logical and realistic perspective. Organized religion is not synonymous with sexual abuse. Furthermore, it is not a product of organized religion. Jennifer Fulwiler addressed this issue on Catholic Radio.

[LoudmouthMormon]

2 hours ago, why me said:

Within the catholic church, there was absolute trust in the priest. No one would believe that they would be involved in such things. 

Hi there, guy from the trenches here.  I think I heard my first pedophile priest joke back in the 1970's before I was a teenager.  Lots of joking about why altar boys all sing high notes, and Father McFeeley, and why there are castrati, and other lowbrow jabs at how molestation ran rampant amongst children in the Catholic church.

If you need a bit of proof of how it was pretty enshrined the notion was in the culture, remember Triumph the Dog from the Conan O'Brian show?  He covered the premiere of StarWars Episode II (2002), one of the jokes was "Thousands of thirty five year old men waiting days and even months for just a taste of George lucas’s table scraps. Lonely men who have never had sex, not even with a catholic priest."  That was sixteen years ago.

"No one would believe".   I guess it depends on which social circle from which you draw that conclusion. 

Edited August 19, 2018 by LoudmouthMormon