Popular Post smac97 Posted August 15, 2018 Popular Post Posted August 15, 2018 (edited) From this news item: Quote 301 ‘Predator Priests’ Named In Pa. Grand Jury Sex Abuse Report: ‘They Were Raping Little Boys & Girls’ By Andy SheehanAugust 14, 2018 at 11:05 pm PITTSBURGH (KDKA) — The long-awaited state grand jury report into sexual abuse in six Pennsylvania dioceses, including Pittsburgh and Greensburg, has finally been released. The 884-page document, two years in the making, shines a light into the dark corners of these dioceses going back seven decades, exposing the predators and the efforts of their bishops to protect them. “Today, the most comprehensive report on child sexual abuse within the church ever produced in our country was released,” Attorney General Josh Shapiro said. “Pennsylvanians can finally learn the extent of sexual abuse in these dioceses. For the first time, we can all begin to understand the systematic cover up by church leaders that followed. The abuse scarred every diocese. The cover up was sophisticated. The church protected the institution at all costs.” Several clergy abuse victims who had testified before the grand jury attended Shapiro’s news conference. At least one of them could be seen breaking down in tears. The report begins with the following statement: “We, the members of this grand jury, need you to hear this. We know some of you have head some of it before. There have been other reports about child sex abuse within the Catholic Church. But never on this scale. For many of us, those earlier stories happened someplace else, someplace away. Now we know the truth: it happened everywhere.” CLICK HERE TO READ THE FULL REPORT AND LIST OF NAMES OF PREDATOR PRIESTS CLICK HERE TO READ THE FULL LIST OF NAMES RELEASED BY THE CATHOLIC DIOCESE OF PITTSBURGH CLICK HERE TO READ THE FULL LIST OF NAMES RELEASED BY THE CATHOLIC DIOCESE OF GREENSBURG The report cites 301 priests, clergy and lay teachers with credible allegations against them. There are 99 in the Diocese of Pittsburgh alone. Of those 99, a group of four groomed and violently sexually assaulted young boys, said Shapiro. “One boy was forced to stand on a bed in a rectory, strip naked and pose as Christ on the cross for the priests. They took photos of their victim, adding them to a collection of child pornography which they produced and shared on church grounds,” Shapiro said. ... The report states: Quote “All victims were brushed aside, in every part of the state, by church leaders who preferred to protect the abusers and their institution above all. The main thing was not to help children, but to avoid scandal.” “Priests were raping little boys and girls and the men of God who were responsible for them not only did nothing: they hid it all.” “Diocesan administrators, including the Bishops, had knowledge of this conduct and yet priests were regularly placed in ministry after the Diocese was on notice that a complaint of child sexual abuse had been made. This conduct enabled offenders and endangered the welfare of children.” In addition, the report says administrators and Bishops “often dissuaded victims from reporting abuse to police, pressured law enforcement to terminate or avoid an investigation, or conducted their own deficient, biased investigations without reporting crimes against children to the proper authorities.” “Above all else, they protected their institution at all cost,” Shapiro said. ... Cardinal Wuerl responded to the allegations in a statement saying: “As I have made clear throughout my more than 30 years as a bishop, the sexual abuse of children by some members of the Catholic Church is a terrible tragedy, and the Church can never express enough our deep sorrow and contrition for the abuse, and for the failure to respond promptly and completely. While I understand this Report may be critical of some of my actions, I believe the Report confirms that I acted with diligence, with concern for the victims and to prevent future acts of abuse. I sincerely hope that a just assessment of my actions, past and present, and my continuing commitment to the protection of children will dispel any notions otherwise made by this report.” The Archdiocese of Washington, which Cardinal Wuerl leads now disputes some of the report. In a statement, they say, in part: “The document referenced by the Report contains the hand-written phrase “circle of secrecy.” However, the handwriting does not belong to then-Bishop Wuerl as the writers of the Report mistakenly assumed. Indeed, the Cardinal confirmed the handwriting is not his, and confirmed he neither wrote nor used the phrase while serving as Bishop of Pittsburgh. When the Cardinal’s legal counsel informed the Pennsylvania Attorney General’s Office about this error – prior to the Release of the Report – the Attorney General and his Senior Deputy refused to acknowledge the mistake and refused to take any steps to correct the dramatic use and misattribution of the phrase in the Report.” Again, here is a link to the Grand Jury Report. An excerpt: Quote We were given the job of investigating child sex abuse in six dioceses - every diocese in the state except Philadelphia and Altoona -Johnstown, which were the subject of previous grand juries. These six dioceses account for 54 of Pennsylvania's 67 counties. We heard the testimony of dozens of witnesses concerning clergy sex abuse. We subpoenaed, and reviewed, half a million pages of internal diocesan documents. They contained credible allegations against over three hundred predator priests. Over one thousand child victims were identifiable, from the church's own records. We believe that the real number - of children whose records were lost, or who were afraid ever to come forward - is in the thousands. ... We are sick over all the crimes that will go unpunished and uncompensated. This report is our only recourse. We are going to name their names, and describe what they did - both the sex offenders and those who concealed them. We are going to shine a light on their conduct, because that is what the victims deserve. And we are going to make our recommendations for how the laws should change so that maybe no one will have to conduct another inquiry like this one. We hereby exercise our historical and statutory right as grand jurors to inform the public of our findings. Words fails me. More: Quote The strategies were so common that they were susceptible to behavioral analysis by the Federal Bureau of Investigation. For our benefit, the FBI agreed to assign members of its National Center for the Analysis of Violent Crime to review a significant portion of the evidence received by the grand jury. Special agents testified before us that they had identified a series of practices that regularly appeared, in various configurations, in the diocesan files they had analyzed. It's like a playbook for concealing the truth: First, make sure to use euphemisms rather than real words to describe the sexual assaults in diocese documents. Never say "rape"; say "inappropriate contact" or "boundary issues." Second, don't conduct genuine investigations with properly trained personnel. Instead, assign fellow clergy members to ask inadequate questions and then make credibility determinations about the colleagues with whom they live and work. Third, for an appearance of integrity, send priests for "evaluation" at church -run psychiatric treatment centers. Allow these experts to "diagnose" whether the priest was a pedophile, based largely on the priest's "self -reports," and regardless of whether the priest had actually engaged in sexual contact with a child. Fourth, when a priest does have to be removed, don't say why. Tell his parishioners that he is on "sick leave," or suffering from "nervous exhaustion." Or say nothing at all. Fifth, even if a priest is raping children, keep providing him housing and living expenses, although he may be using these resources to facilitate more sexual assaults. Sixth, if a predator's conduct becomes known to the community, don't remove him from the priesthood to ensure that no more children will be victimized. Instead, transfer him to a new location where no one will know he is a child abuser. Finally and above all, don't tell the police. Child sexual abuse, even short of actual penetration, is and has for all relevant times been a crime. But don't treat it that way; handle it like a personnel matter, "in house." Let's reduce this "playbook" a bit: Point 1: Use Euphemisms Point 2: Avoid Meaningful Investigations Point 3: "In-House" Evaluation of Priests' Mental Health Point 4: Don't Explain Removal of Priests Point 5: Continued Financial/Housing Support of Priests Point 6: Don't Defrock, Transfer Point 7: Don't Report Abuse to Police Some further excerpts (WARNING: these are pretty hard to stomach): Quote In the Diocese of Allentown, for example, documents show that a priest was confronted about an abuse complaint. He admitted, "Please help me. I sexually molested a boy." The diocese concluded that "the experience will not necessarily be a horrendous trauma" for the victim, and that the family should just be given "an opportunity to ventilate." The priest was left in unrestricted ministry for several more years, despite his own confession. [In] the Diocese of Erie, despite a priest's admission to assaulting at least a dozen young boys, the bishop wrote to thank him for "all that you have done for God's people.... The Lord, who sees in private, will reward." Another priest confessed to **** and oral rape of at least 15 boys, as young as seven years old. The bishop later met with the abuser to commend him as "a person of candor and sincerity," and to compliment him "for the progress he has made" in controlling his "addiction." When the abuser was finally removed from the priesthood years later, the bishop ordered the parish not to say why; "nothing else need be noted." In the Diocese of Greensburg, a priest impregnated a 17 -year -old, forged the head pastor's signature on a marriage certificate, then divorced the girl months later. Despite having sex with a minor, despite fathering a child, despite being married and being divorced, the priest was permitted to stay in ministry thanks to the diocese's efforts to find a "benevolent bishop" in another state willing to take him on. Another priest, grooming his middle school students for oral sex, taught them how Mary had to "bite off the cord" and "lick" Jesus clean after he was born. It took another 15 years, and numerous additional reports of abuse, before the diocese finally removed the priest from ministry. A priest in the Diocese of Harrisburg abused five sisters in a single family, despite prior reports that were never acted on. In addition to sex acts, the priest collected samples of the girls' urine, pubic hair, and menstrual blood. Eventually, his house was searched and his collection was found. Without that kind of incontrovertible evidence, apparently, the diocese remained unwilling to err on the side of children even in the face of multiple reports of abuse. As a high-ranking official said about one suspect priest: "At this point we are at impasse - allegations and no admission." Years later, the abuser did admit what he had done, but by then it was too late. ... In the Diocese of Pittsburgh, church officials dismissed an incident of abuse on the ground that the 15 -year -old had "pursued" the priest and "literally seduced" him into a relationship. After the priest was arrested, the church submitted an evaluation on his behalf to the court. The evaluation acknowledged that the priest had admitted to "sado-masochistic" activities with several boys - but the sadomasochism was only "mild," and at least the priest was not "psychotic." You may be wondering why I am starting a thread about this topic, regarding abuse in the Catholic Church, on a board that is supposed to discuss Mormonism. I will explain: Part 1: The "Corianton Effect" - Religious Hypocrisy, Once Uncovered, Can and Often Does Taint / Undermine / Destroy the Faith of Others My explanation starts in Alma 39, which is a letter from Alma to his son, Corianton. Corianton has presented himself as a representative of God, but then he committed a grave sexual sin, and then others - the Zoramites - found out about it (emphasis added): Quote 1 And now, my son, I have somewhat more to say unto thee than what I said unto thy brother; for behold, have ye not observed the steadiness of thy brother, his faithfulness, and his diligence in keeping the commandments of God? Behold, has he not set a good example for thee? 2 For thou didst not give so much heed unto my words as did thy brother, among the people of the Zoramites. Now this is what I have against thee; thou didst go on unto boasting in thy strength and thy wisdom. 3 And this is not all, my son. Thou didst do that which was grievous unto me; for thou didst forsake the ministry, and did go over into the land of Siron among the borders of the Lamanites, after the harlot Isabel. 4 Yea, she did steal away the hearts of many; but this was no excuse for thee, my son. Thou shouldst have tended to the ministry wherewith thou wast entrusted. 5 Know ye not, my son, that these things are an abomination in the sight of the Lord; yea, most abominable above all sins save it be the shedding of innocent blood or denying the Holy Ghost? 6 For behold, if ye deny the Holy Ghost when it once has had place in you, and ye know that ye deny it, behold, this is a sin which is unpardonable; yea, and whosoever murdereth against the light and knowledge of God, it is not easy for him to obtain forgiveness; yea, I say unto you, my son, that it is not easy for him to obtain a forgiveness. 7 And now, my son, I would to God that ye had not been guilty of so great a crime. I would not dwell upon your crimes, to harrow up your soul, if it were not for your good. ... 11 Suffer not yourself to be led away by any vain or foolish thing; suffer not the devil to lead away your heart again after those wicked harlots. Behold, O my son, how great iniquity ye brought upon the Zoramites; for when they saw your conduct they would not believe in my words. I think part of the enormity of Corianton's misconduct was the effect he had on the Zoramites. The Zoramites saw the hypocrisy of someone representing and bringing a message from God. The Zoramites rejected the message because of Corianton's hypocrisy. Corianton, through his hypocrisy, underminedThe Zoramites' faith, or their ability to have faith. The message presented by Corianton was true and good, but Corianton nevertheless tainted that message in the eyes of the Zoramites. For the sake of convenience, let's call this the "Corianton Effect." Corianton, fortunately, apparently repented (Alma called Corianton again to the work (see Alma 42:31; also 49:30)). But the lesson for us remains as to the dangers and caustic effects of hypocrisy. Part 2: Catholics and Mormons Have Similarities I think that in our popular culture, Catholics and Mormons have similarities. Both have exclusivistic truth claims. Both have a visible and centralized leadership heirarchy. Both are (or are designed to be) "lifestyle" religions, affecting all aspects of life. Both present their message as being from God. Both typify "organized religion." Part 3: Conclusions Based on "Identity" Our society is presently wracked with a pretty dysfunctional strain of thought that involves slicing and dicing us into "identities." Race. Gender. Sexual orientation. Political ideolog/affiliation. Religion. There are people who want to factionalize us along these lines, and then pit these "identities" against each other. The resulting contentions are then stoked by some irrationalities that gloss over the logical flaws inherent in such factionalization, one of which is stereotyping on steroids. Many of these stereotypes are steeped in bigotry and ignorance. Many of these are readily and gratuitously imputed from a subset of a group to the group in its entirety, or else imputed from one group to a similar group. Part 4: Profound and Widespread Dysfunction in the Catholic Priesthood Notwithstanding Part 3, there is nevertheless apparently a profound and widespread dysfunction in the Catholic Church. I say this as a great admirer of Catholicism and its various accomplishments. But the Grand Jury report appears to be grounded in substantive and evidence-based allegations. Part 5: Provincial/Simplistic Thinking, or Where There's Smoke (Widespread Abuse by Catholic Priests), There's Fire (Widespread Abuse by LDS Bishops, Members, etc.) I think the similarities noted in Part 2 above, when combined with today's prevalent "identity" factionalization efforts (see Part 3) and the profoundly disturbing allegations in the Grand Jury Report (see Part 4) lay the groundwork for people to be affected by the "Corianton Effect" (see Part 1). I think there have been, and will be, some substantial disaffection amongst the membership of the Catholic Church. The misconduct of the Catholic priests described (and named) in the news article's links will prove to have a caustic effect on the faith of many Catholics. This misconduct will also have a caustic effect on the inchoate or prospective faith of outsiders looking in at the Catholic Church. And assumptions and conclusions about Catholicism will arise therefrom. This misconduct will also, I think, have a caustic effect on the inchoate or prospective faith of outsiders looking in at other faith groups, including the LDS Church. Stories, and perceptions of stories, about widespread abusive behavior by Catholic priests will be, consciously or otherwise, imputed onto LDS leaders and members. And assumptions and conclusions about Mormonism will arise therefrom. If one organized religion (Catholicism) has a systemic problem with sexual abuse, then so must other organized religions, such as Mormonism. Take a look again at the "playbook" referenced in the Report that apparently exacerbated and prolonged the abusive environment. Point 1: Use Euphemisms Point 2: Avoid Meaningful Investigations Point 3: "In-House" Evaluation of Priests' Mental Health Point 4: Don't Explain Removal of Priests Point 5: Continued Financial/Housing Support of Priests Point 6: Don't Defrock, Transfer Point 7: Don't Report Abuse to Police Most of this is not readily applicable to Mormonism. Our local leaders (bishops) do not rely on the Church for housing, income, etc. Being a bishop is a "side job." Unpaid. So the Church has much less of a problem "releasing" a bishop as compared to the Catholic Church defrocking a priest. Moreover the LDS Church has chosen - wisely, I think - to generally not attempt extensive "investigations" of misconduct, and to instead have such matters addressed by law enforcement. The Church simply lacks the resources to conduct meaningful investigations. And as noted above, any such investigations would be - rightly or wrongly - tainted by self-interest. So the Church can "investigate" to a limited extent necessary to effectuate ecclesiastical discipline and eliminate the potential for abusive situations involving representatives of the Church. However, such an investigation is not intended to supplant efforts by law enforcement. Nevertheless, I think there's a "where there's smoke, there's fire" attitude at work in some quarters. If there is widespread sexual abuse by priests in the Catholic Church, then there must be widespread sexual abuse by bishops in the LDS Church. That, I think, is the subtext in play. This may explain, to some extent, the hysterical and not-entirely-rational machinations of Sam Young. His McCarthyite, Every-Bishop-is-a-Pervert-and-Pedophile tactics and posturing have seemed weird to me. Disproportionate. Unreasoned. I do not deny that there are instances of abuse in the LDS Church, including abuse by some leaders. However, I do not think this abuse is anywhere near the systemic problems currently being exposed in the Catholic Church. But Sam Young acts as if our situation is comparable/identical. Moreover, the LDS Church has taken substantial and meaningful and effective steps to reduce the risks of abuse. And yet Sam Young and his ilk - who purport to be concerned about the welfare of children - seem incapable of acknowledging or accounting for these efforts. If anything, Young is getting more shrill, not less. It's as if he has tied his life's purpose to crusading on this issue, which purpose wanes if the situation he deplores actually improves. Such an improvement lessens his purpose, so he shifts the goalposts, ratchets up the rhetoric, and continues on. Tragically, he is at risk of becoming the Mormon equivalent of racebaiters like Al Sharpton. Mr. Sharpton gained notoriety and influence (and wealth) by pointing out race-based social disparities. This, in turn, created a perverse incentive for him to exaggerate or foster or even fabricate outright racial resentments, which Sharpton can then point at in order to further his notoriety and influence. I can't help but wonder if Mr. Young is - hopefully unconsciously - developing similar perverse incentives. His overzealousness is leading him to slander the Church, to foster resentments and anger and distrust amongst the membership. Anyway, there's my thinking. I hope our Catholic brothers and sisters find ways to address and resolve this problem without abandoning their faith. I hope those who are indulging lazy, bigoted stereotypes to malign all adherents of organized religions because of the misconduct of a (relative) few will reconsider their perspectives. I hope the abusers referened int he above article are deprived of their access to potential victims. And I hope they repent. And I hope they are brought to justice such as is allowed by law. I hope the victims referenced in the above article find comfort and peace. Thanks, -Smac Edited August 15, 2018 by smac97 7
SouthernMo Posted August 15, 2018 Posted August 15, 2018 20 minutes ago, smac97 said: From this news item: Again, here is a link to the Grand Jury Report. An excerpt: Words fails me. More: Let's reduce this "playbook" a bit: Point 1: Use Euphemisms Point 2: Avoid Meaningful Investigations Point 3: "In-House" Evaluation of Priests' Mental Health Point 4: Don't Explain Removal of Priests Point 5: Continued Financial/Housing Support of Priests Point 6: Don't Defrock, Transfer Point 7: Don't Report Abuse to Police Some further excerpts (WARNING: these are pretty hard to stomach): You may be wondering why I am starting a thread about this topic, regarding abuse in the Catholic Church, on a board that is supposed to discuss Mormonism. I will explain: Part 1: The "Corianton Effect" - Religious Hypocrisy, Once Uncovered, Can and Often Does Taint / Undermine / Destroy the Faith of Others My explanation starts in Alma 39, which is a letter from Alma to his son, Corianton. Corianton has presented himself as a representative of God, but then he committed a grave sexual sin, and then others - the Zoramites - found out about it (emphasis added): I think part of the enormity of Corianton's misconduct was the effect he had on the Zoramites. The Zoramites saw the hypocrisy of someone representing and bringing a message from God. The Zoramites rejected the message because of Corianton's hypocrisy. Corianton, through his hypocrisy, underminedThe Zoramites' faith, or their ability to have faith. The message presented by Corianton was true and good, but Corianton nevertheless tainted that message in the eyes of the Zoramites. For the sake of convenience, let's call this the "Corianton Effect." Corianton, fortunately, apparently repented (Alma called Corianton again to the work (see Alma 42:31; also 49:30)). But the lesson for us remains as to the dangers and caustic effects of hypocrisy. Part 2: Catholics and Mormons Have Similarities I think that in our popular culture, Catholics and Mormons have similarities. Both have exclusivistic truth claims. Both have a visible and centralized leadership heirarchy. Both are (or are designed to be) "lifestyle" religions, affecting all aspects of life. Both present their message as being from God. Both typify "organized religion." Part 3: Conclusions Based on "Identity" Our society is presently wracked with a pretty dysfunctional strain of thought that involves slicing and dicing us into "identities." Race. Gender. Sexual orientation. Political ideolog/affiliation. Religion. There are people who want to factionalize us along these lines, and then pit these "identities" against each other. The resulting contentions are then stoked by some irrationalities that gloss over the logical flaws inherent in such factionalization, one of which is stereotyping on steroids. Many of these stereotypes are steeped in bigotry and ignorance. Many of these are readily and gratuitously imputed from a subset of a group to the group in its entirety, or else imputed from one group to a similar group. Part 4: Profound and Widespread Dysfunction in the Catholic Priesthood Notwithstanding Part 3, there is nevertheless apparently a profound and widespread dysfunction in the Catholic Church. I say this as a great admirer of Catholicism and its various accomplishments. But the Grand Jury report appears to be grounded in substantive and evidence-based allegations. Part 5: Provincial/Simplistic Thinking, or Where There's Smoke (Widespread Abuse by Catholic Priests), There's Fire (Widespread Abuse by LDS Bishops, Members, etc.) I think the similarities noted in Part 2 above, when combined with today's prevalent "identity" factionalization efforts (see Part 3) and the profoundly disturbing allegations in the Grand Jury Report (see Part 4) lay the groundwork for people to be affected by the "Corianton Effect" (see Part 1). I think there have been, and will be, some substantial disaffection amongst the membership of the Catholic Church. The misconduct of the Catholic priests described (and named) in the news article's links will prove to have a caustic effect on the faith of many Catholics. This misconduct will also have a caustic effect on the inchoate or prospective faith of outsiders looking in at the Catholic Church. And assumptions and conclusions about Catholicism will arise therefrom. This misconduct will also, I think, have a caustic effect on the inchoate or prospective faith of outsiders looking in at other faith groups, including the LDS Church. Stories, and perceptions of stories, about widespread abusive behavior by Catholic priests will be, consciously or otherwise, imputed onto LDS leaders and members. And assumptions and conclusions about Mormonism will arise therefrom. If one organized religion (Catholicism) has a systemic problem with sexual abuse, then so must other organized religions, such as Mormonism. Take a look again at the "playbook" referenced in the Report that apparently exacerbated and prolonged the abusive environment. Point 1: Use Euphemisms Point 2: Avoid Meaningful Investigations Point 3: "In-House" Evaluation of Priests' Mental Health Point 4: Don't Explain Removal of Priests Point 5: Continued Financial/Housing Support of Priests Point 6: Don't Defrock, Transfer Point 7: Don't Report Abuse to Police Most of this is not readily applicable to Mormonism. Our local leaders (bishops) do not rely on the Church for housing, income, etc. Being a bishop is a "side job." Unpaid. So the Church has much less of a problem "releasing" a bishop as compared to the Catholic Church defrocking a priest. The LDS Church has chosen - wisely, I think - to generally not attempt extensive "investigations" of misconduct, and to instead have such matters addressed by law enforcement. The Church simply lacks the resources to conduct meaningful investigations. And as noted above, any such investigations would be - rightly or wrongly - tainted by self-interest. So the Church can "investigate" to a limited extent necessary to effectuate ecclesiastical discipline and eliminate the potential for abusive situations involving representatives of the Church. However, such an investigation is not intended to supplant efforts by law enforcement. Nevertheless, I think there's a "where there's smoke, there's fire" attitude at work in some quarters. If there is widespread sexual abuse by priests in the Catholic Church, then there must be widespread sexual abuse by bishops in the LDS Church. That, I think, is the subtext in play. This may explain, to some extent, the hysterical and not-entirely-rational machinations of Sam Young. His McCarthyite, Every-Bishop-is-a-Pervert-and-Pedophile tactics and posturing have seemed weird to me. Disproportionate. Unreasoned. I do not deny that there are instances of abuse in the LDS Church, including abuse by some leaders. However, I do not think this abuse is anywhere near the systemic problems currently being exposed in the Catholic Church. But Sam Young acts as if our situation is comparable/identical. Moreover, the LDS Church has taken substantial and meaningful and effective steps to reduce the risks of abuse. And yet Sam Young and his ilk - who purport to be concerned about the welfare of children - seem incapable of acknowledging or accounting for these efforts. If anything, Young is getting more shrill, not less. It's as if he has tied his life's purpose to crusading on this issue, which purpose wanes if the situation he deplores actually improves. Such an improvement lessens his purpose, so he shifts the goalposts, ratchets up the rhetoric, and continues on. Tragically, he is at risk of becoming the Mormon equivalent of racebaiters like Al Sharpton. Mr. Sharpton gained notoriety and influence (and wealth) by pointing out race-based social disparities. This, in turn, created a perverse incentive for him to exaggerate or foster or even fabricate outright racial resentments, which Sharpton can then point at in order to further his notoriety and influence. I can't help but wonder if Mr. Young is - hopefully unconsciously - developing similar perverse incentives. His overzealousness is leading him to slander the Church, to foster resentments and anger and distrust amongst the membership. Anyway, there's my thinking. I hope our Catholic brothers and sisters find ways to address and resolve this problem without abandoning their faith. I hope those who are indulging lazy, bigoted stereotypes to malign all adherents of organized religions because of the misconduct of a (relative) few will reconsider their perspectives. I hope the abusers referened int he above article are deprived of their access to potential victims. And I hope they repent. And I hope they are brought to justice such as is allowed by law. I hope the victims referenced in the above article find comfort and peace. Thanks, -Smac You need to write this as an article to be punished somewhere. It has relevancy, timeliness, and contains well-reasoned original thought supported by evidence. Not sure what Journal would be best to submit it to... Dialogue? I’m serious. Mormons, Catholics, and others need to read some version of this piece. This is one of the best, if not the best post I’ve read on this site.
smac97 Posted August 15, 2018 Author Posted August 15, 2018 2 minutes ago, SouthernMo said: You need to write this as an article to be punished somewhere. "Published," I think you mean (I hope you mean 😶 ). 2 minutes ago, SouthernMo said: It has relevancy, timeliness, and contains well-reasoned original thought supported by evidence. Not sure what Journal would be best to submit it to... Dialogue? Dunno. It's not really article-length. I've never tried to get an article on Mormonism published. Maybe someday... 2 minutes ago, SouthernMo said: I’m serious. Mormons, Catholics, and others need to read some version of this piece. This is one of the best, if not the best post I’ve read on this site. Thanks. I think we need to address these issues, but in the right ways. Sam Young's McCarthyistic vitriol isn't helping. Critics of organized religion using these issues as ammunition against organized religion isn't helping. Thanks, -Smac 1
SouthernMo Posted August 15, 2018 Posted August 15, 2018 13 minutes ago, smac97 said: "Published," I think you mean (I hope you mean 😶 ). Hilarious mistake! Yes, I meant published. Dang auto-correct on my iPhone and typing while I'm walking.
Popular Post HappyJackWagon Posted August 15, 2018 Popular Post Posted August 15, 2018 I think you're right about cynicism spreading, and deservedly so. People don't blindly trust clergy any more, and they shouldn't. They are human and can cause great harm. Clergy should follow the same youth protection rules as others. The end. 5
Popular Post rongo Posted August 15, 2018 Popular Post Posted August 15, 2018 57 minutes ago, smac97 said: Nevertheless, I think there's a "where there's smoke, there's fire" attitude at work in some quarters. If there is widespread sexual abuse by priests in the Catholic Church, then there must be widespread sexual abuse by bishops in the LDS Church. That, I think, is the subtext in play. This may explain, to some extent, the hysterical and not-entirely-rational machinations of Sam Young. His McCarthyite, Every-Bishop-is-a-Pervert-and-Pedophile tactics and posturing have seemed weird to me. Disproportionate. Unreasoned. I'm as big a critic of Sam Young as anyone, but I really don't think this is his stance (that all LDS bishops are suspect). Rather, I think his position is that the act of interviewing at all is wrong and should be stopped. I think he would say that most LDS bishops are good men and not doing anything bad, but that the very act of interviewing youth alone at all is bad. I strongly disagree with him on this, but representing his argument and tone as "Every-Bishop-is-a-Pervert-and-Pedophile" is inaccurate and unhelpful in this issue. The larger issue, as I understand it from internal and external critics, is that youth interviews are de facto grooming, even when no sexual things are discussed at any level. That's where I think traditionalists like me and you need to meet them in this discussion, since it is their emphasis that isn't going away. 7
Robert F. Smith Posted August 15, 2018 Posted August 15, 2018 45 minutes ago, SouthernMo said: You need to write this as an article to be punished somewhere. It has relevancy, timeliness, and contains well-reasoned original thought supported by evidence. Not sure what Journal would be best to submit it to... Dialogue? I’m serious. Mormons, Catholics, and others need to read some version of this piece. This is one of the best, if not the best post I’ve read on this site. Interpreter, perhaps. 2
ALarson Posted August 15, 2018 Posted August 15, 2018 (edited) 30 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: I think you're right about cynicism spreading, and deservedly so. People don't blindly trust clergy any more, and they shouldn't. They are human and can cause great harm. Clergy should follow the same youth protection rules as others. The end. I agree. Any light we can shine on this issue is good (thanks smac) and much (all?) of this applies to our church as well as the Catholic religion and others, IMO. Edited August 15, 2018 by ALarson 2
Popular Post HappyJackWagon Posted August 15, 2018 Popular Post Posted August 15, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, rongo said: I'm as big a critic of Sam Young as anyone, but I really don't think this is his stance (that all LDS bishops are suspect). Rather, I think his position is that the act of interviewing at all is wrong and should be stopped. I think he would say that most LDS bishops are good men and not doing anything bad, but that the very act of interviewing youth alone at all is bad. I strongly disagree with him on this, but representing his argument and tone as "Every-Bishop-is-a-Pervert-and-Pedophile" is inaccurate and unhelpful in this issue. The larger issue, as I understand it from internal and external critics, is that youth interviews are de facto grooming, even when no sexual things are discussed at any level. That's where I think traditionalists like me and you need to meet them in this discussion, since it is their emphasis that isn't going away. One-on-one interviews between clergy and youth, behind closed doors where sxual topics are sometimes discussed, represents a serious risk. I agree that Sam Young is NOT stating that every bishop is a perv. He's stating that there is a risk, and that the risk is unacceptable. Grooming is a real possibility as is more overt abuse. If the catholic church claimed that priests needed to meet with youth or children one-on-one for the same reasons the LDS church claims, would you find that acceptable? Or would it cause some concern? @rongo @smac97 Edited August 15, 2018 by HappyJackWagon 5
stemelbow Posted August 15, 2018 Posted August 15, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, smac97 said: Most of this is not readily applicable to Mormonism. Our local leaders (bishops) do not rely on the Church for housing, income, etc. Being a bishop is a "side job." Unpaid. So the Church has much less of a problem "releasing" a bishop as compared to the Catholic Church defrocking a priest. Moreover the LDS Church has chosen - wisely, I think - to generally not attempt extensive "investigations" of misconduct, and to instead have such matters addressed by law enforcement. The Church simply lacks the resources to conduct meaningful investigations. And as noted above, any such investigations would be - rightly or wrongly - tainted by self-interest. So the Church can "investigate" to a limited extent necessary to effectuate ecclesiastical discipline and eliminate the potential for abusive situations involving representatives of the Church. However, such an investigation is not intended to supplant efforts by law enforcement. Nevertheless, I think there's a "where there's smoke, there's fire" attitude at work in some quarters. If there is widespread sexual abuse by priests in the Catholic Church, then there must be widespread sexual abuse by bishops in the LDS Church. That, I think, is the subtext in play. This may explain, to some extent, the hysterical and not-entirely-rational machinations of Sam Young. His McCarthyite, Every-Bishop-is-a-Pervert-and-Pedophile tactics and posturing have seemed weird to me. Disproportionate. Unreasoned. I do not deny that there are instances of abuse in the LDS Church, including abuse by some leaders. However, I do not think this abuse is anywhere near the systemic problems currently being exposed in the Catholic Church. But Sam Young acts as if our situation is comparable/identical. Moreover, the LDS Church has taken substantial and meaningful and effective steps to reduce the risks of abuse. And yet Sam Young and his ilk - who purport to be concerned about the welfare of children - seem incapable of acknowledging or accounting for these efforts. If anything, Young is getting more shrill, not less. It's as if he has tied his life's purpose to crusading on this issue, which purpose wanes if the situation he deplores actually improves. Such an improvement lessens his purpose, so he shifts the goalposts, ratchets up the rhetoric, and continues on. Tragically, he is at risk of becoming the Mormon equivalent of racebaiters like Al Sharpton. Mr. Sharpton gained notoriety and influence (and wealth) by pointing out race-based social disparities. This, in turn, created a perverse incentive for him to exaggerate or foster or even fabricate outright racial resentments, which Sharpton can then point at in order to further his notoriety and influence. I can't help but wonder if Mr. Young is - hopefully unconsciously - developing similar perverse incentives. His overzealousness is leading him to slander the Church, to foster resentments and anger and distrust amongst the membership. Anyway, there's my thinking. I hope our Catholic brothers and sisters find ways to address and resolve this problem without abandoning their faith. I hope those who are indulging lazy, bigoted stereotypes to malign all adherents of organized religions because of the misconduct of a (relative) few will reconsider their perspectives. I hope the abusers referened int he above article are deprived of their access to potential victims. And I hope they repent. And I hope they are brought to justice such as is allowed by law. I hope the victims referenced in the above article find comfort and peace. Thanks, -Smac Fewf! that was a stretch, smac. I think Sam Young has acknowledge the efforts by the Church and has responded by saying it's just not enough. Rogno said it well, Sam Young doesn't at all seem to be thinking in the terms you have assumed of him. That is just a complete stretch to link this to Sam young and the Church. one victim is too many. That should say something to your complaint about the LDS church not having as widespread a problem. Edited August 15, 2018 by stemelbow
mfbukowski Posted August 15, 2018 Posted August 15, 2018 1 hour ago, smac97 said: From this news item: Again, here is a link to the Grand Jury Report. An excerpt: Words fails me. More: Let's reduce this "playbook" a bit: Point 1: Use Euphemisms Point 2: Avoid Meaningful Investigations Point 3: "In-House" Evaluation of Priests' Mental Health Point 4: Don't Explain Removal of Priests Point 5: Continued Financial/Housing Support of Priests Point 6: Don't Defrock, Transfer Point 7: Don't Report Abuse to Police Some further excerpts (WARNING: these are pretty hard to stomach): You may be wondering why I am starting a thread about this topic, regarding abuse in the Catholic Church, on a board that is supposed to discuss Mormonism. I will explain: Part 1: The "Corianton Effect" - Religious Hypocrisy, Once Uncovered, Can and Often Does Taint / Undermine / Destroy the Faith of Others My explanation starts in Alma 39, which is a letter from Alma to his son, Corianton. Corianton has presented himself as a representative of God, but then he committed a grave sexual sin, and then others - the Zoramites - found out about it (emphasis added): I think part of the enormity of Corianton's misconduct was the effect he had on the Zoramites. The Zoramites saw the hypocrisy of someone representing and bringing a message from God. The Zoramites rejected the message because of Corianton's hypocrisy. Corianton, through his hypocrisy, underminedThe Zoramites' faith, or their ability to have faith. The message presented by Corianton was true and good, but Corianton nevertheless tainted that message in the eyes of the Zoramites. For the sake of convenience, let's call this the "Corianton Effect." Corianton, fortunately, apparently repented (Alma called Corianton again to the work (see Alma 42:31; also 49:30)). But the lesson for us remains as to the dangers and caustic effects of hypocrisy. Part 2: Catholics and Mormons Have Similarities I think that in our popular culture, Catholics and Mormons have similarities. Both have exclusivistic truth claims. Both have a visible and centralized leadership heirarchy. Both are (or are designed to be) "lifestyle" religions, affecting all aspects of life. Both present their message as being from God. Both typify "organized religion." Part 3: Conclusions Based on "Identity" Our society is presently wracked with a pretty dysfunctional strain of thought that involves slicing and dicing us into "identities." Race. Gender. Sexual orientation. Political ideolog/affiliation. Religion. There are people who want to factionalize us along these lines, and then pit these "identities" against each other. The resulting contentions are then stoked by some irrationalities that gloss over the logical flaws inherent in such factionalization, one of which is stereotyping on steroids. Many of these stereotypes are steeped in bigotry and ignorance. Many of these are readily and gratuitously imputed from a subset of a group to the group in its entirety, or else imputed from one group to a similar group. Part 4: Profound and Widespread Dysfunction in the Catholic Priesthood Notwithstanding Part 3, there is nevertheless apparently a profound and widespread dysfunction in the Catholic Church. I say this as a great admirer of Catholicism and its various accomplishments. But the Grand Jury report appears to be grounded in substantive and evidence-based allegations. Part 5: Provincial/Simplistic Thinking, or Where There's Smoke (Widespread Abuse by Catholic Priests), There's Fire (Widespread Abuse by LDS Bishops, Members, etc.) I think the similarities noted in Part 2 above, when combined with today's prevalent "identity" factionalization efforts (see Part 3) and the profoundly disturbing allegations in the Grand Jury Report (see Part 4) lay the groundwork for people to be affected by the "Corianton Effect" (see Part 1). I think there have been, and will be, some substantial disaffection amongst the membership of the Catholic Church. The misconduct of the Catholic priests described (and named) in the news article's links will prove to have a caustic effect on the faith of many Catholics. This misconduct will also have a caustic effect on the inchoate or prospective faith of outsiders looking in at the Catholic Church. And assumptions and conclusions about Catholicism will arise therefrom. This misconduct will also, I think, have a caustic effect on the inchoate or prospective faith of outsiders looking in at other faith groups, including the LDS Church. Stories, and perceptions of stories, about widespread abusive behavior by Catholic priests will be, consciously or otherwise, imputed onto LDS leaders and members. And assumptions and conclusions about Mormonism will arise therefrom. If one organized religion (Catholicism) has a systemic problem with sexual abuse, then so must other organized religions, such as Mormonism. Take a look again at the "playbook" referenced in the Report that apparently exacerbated and prolonged the abusive environment. Point 1: Use Euphemisms Point 2: Avoid Meaningful Investigations Point 3: "In-House" Evaluation of Priests' Mental Health Point 4: Don't Explain Removal of Priests Point 5: Continued Financial/Housing Support of Priests Point 6: Don't Defrock, Transfer Point 7: Don't Report Abuse to Police Most of this is not readily applicable to Mormonism. Our local leaders (bishops) do not rely on the Church for housing, income, etc. Being a bishop is a "side job." Unpaid. So the Church has much less of a problem "releasing" a bishop as compared to the Catholic Church defrocking a priest. Moreover the LDS Church has chosen - wisely, I think - to generally not attempt extensive "investigations" of misconduct, and to instead have such matters addressed by law enforcement. The Church simply lacks the resources to conduct meaningful investigations. And as noted above, any such investigations would be - rightly or wrongly - tainted by self-interest. So the Church can "investigate" to a limited extent necessary to effectuate ecclesiastical discipline and eliminate the potential for abusive situations involving representatives of the Church. However, such an investigation is not intended to supplant efforts by law enforcement. Nevertheless, I think there's a "where there's smoke, there's fire" attitude at work in some quarters. If there is widespread sexual abuse by priests in the Catholic Church, then there must be widespread sexual abuse by bishops in the LDS Church. That, I think, is the subtext in play. This may explain, to some extent, the hysterical and not-entirely-rational machinations of Sam Young. His McCarthyite, Every-Bishop-is-a-Pervert-and-Pedophile tactics and posturing have seemed weird to me. Disproportionate. Unreasoned. I do not deny that there are instances of abuse in the LDS Church, including abuse by some leaders. However, I do not think this abuse is anywhere near the systemic problems currently being exposed in the Catholic Church. But Sam Young acts as if our situation is comparable/identical. Moreover, the LDS Church has taken substantial and meaningful and effective steps to reduce the risks of abuse. And yet Sam Young and his ilk - who purport to be concerned about the welfare of children - seem incapable of acknowledging or accounting for these efforts. If anything, Young is getting more shrill, not less. It's as if he has tied his life's purpose to crusading on this issue, which purpose wanes if the situation he deplores actually improves. Such an improvement lessens his purpose, so he shifts the goalposts, ratchets up the rhetoric, and continues on. Tragically, he is at risk of becoming the Mormon equivalent of racebaiters like Al Sharpton. Mr. Sharpton gained notoriety and influence (and wealth) by pointing out race-based social disparities. This, in turn, created a perverse incentive for him to exaggerate or foster or even fabricate outright racial resentments, which Sharpton can then point at in order to further his notoriety and influence. I can't help but wonder if Mr. Young is - hopefully unconsciously - developing similar perverse incentives. His overzealousness is leading him to slander the Church, to foster resentments and anger and distrust amongst the membership. Anyway, there's my thinking. I hope our Catholic brothers and sisters find ways to address and resolve this problem without abandoning their faith. I hope those who are indulging lazy, bigoted stereotypes to malign all adherents of organized religions because of the misconduct of a (relative) few will reconsider their perspectives. I hope the abusers referened int he above article are deprived of their access to potential victims. And I hope they repent. And I hope they are brought to justice such as is allowed by law. I hope the victims referenced in the above article find comfort and peace. Thanks, -Smac Pure Schadenfreude. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schadenfreude
Robert F. Smith Posted August 15, 2018 Posted August 15, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, smac97 said: ................................... Part 2: Catholics and Mormons Have Similarities I think that in our popular culture, Catholics and Mormons have similarities. Both have exclusivistic truth claims. Both have a visible and centralized leadership heirarchy. Both are (or are designed to be) "lifestyle" religions, affecting all aspects of life. Both present their message as being from God. Both typify "organized religion.".................................. The similarities are not very meaningful, as you yourself observe further on. Quote Part 4: Profound and Widespread Dysfunction in the Catholic Priesthood Notwithstanding Part 3, there is nevertheless apparently a profound and widespread dysfunction in the Catholic Church. I say this as a great admirer of Catholicism and its various accomplishments. But the Grand Jury report appears to be grounded in substantive and evidence-based allegations..................................... The Pennsylvania disclosures are only the most recent. They are not necessarily more horrendous than anything which has gone on before. In Ireland, for example, where the RC priesthood was once held in high esteem, the massive sexual misconduct of those priests has left the entire country deeply shaken. The RC Church has had this problem for centuries now. And even aside from all the pedophilia, many priests have long been sexually involved with fellow priests and adult parishioners. It is only in modern times that we are able to examine the problem with credible dispassion. A few years back, I wrote to RC Bishop John Wester (then of the SLC Diocese), saying, among other things: Quote I have read both Maureen Dowd’s April 9, 2010, column and your reply of yesterday (both in the Salt Lake Tribune), and I feel that you should have been far more cautious and open to her comments in your reply. Permit me to explain why. It is not only Dowd who has suggested celibacy as a major cause of the extraordinary pedophilia crisis within Catholicism, but a number of experts have attributed the problem to a lack of mature psycho-sexual development in many priests who have never dated or been married. Bishop Wester's response was to push back and defend celibacy, which is merely a rule adopted by the Church a thousand years ago, and which is not a moral requirement of Christianity. Unless and until the RC Church gets rid of celibacy and begins requiring that clergy be married (happily married), this problem will continue to plague the RC community. Quote Most of this is not readily applicable to Mormonism. Our local leaders (bishops) do not rely on the Church for housing, income, etc. Being a bishop is a "side job." Unpaid. So the Church has much less of a problem "releasing" a bishop as compared to the Catholic Church defrocking a priest. Moreover the LDS Church has chosen - wisely, I think - to generally not attempt extensive "investigations" of misconduct, and to instead have such matters addressed by law enforcement. The Church simply lacks the resources to conduct meaningful investigations. And as noted above, any such investigations would be - rightly or wrongly - tainted by self-interest. So the Church can "investigate" to a limited extent necessary to effectuate ecclesiastical discipline and eliminate the potential for abusive situations involving representatives of the Church. However, such an investigation is not intended to supplant efforts by law enforcement. ................................ It is not clear to me just how readily LDS leaders will inform or recommend informing law enforcement. That is what I think is best, but am not at all sure that LDS leadership is dedicated to that notion. I think that repentance should come after a secular trial and sentencing. Edited August 15, 2018 by Robert F. Smith
SouthernMo Posted August 15, 2018 Posted August 15, 2018 6 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Pure Schadenfreude. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schadenfreude I really hope your post was an attempt at humor, or sarcasm. To take joy in anything that relates to the abuse of children seems sick to me, even if it comes at the hands of an organization you don't support. Even if your joy comes from seeing the humiliation of the organization that kept Christ's teachings alive for a millennium and a half, how can you be so heartless? Please tell me I'm misunderstanding your comment.
Popular Post smac97 Posted August 15, 2018 Author Popular Post Posted August 15, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, rongo said: I'm as big a critic of Sam Young as anyone, but I really don't think this is his stance (that all LDS bishops are suspect). Rather, I think his position is that the act of interviewing at all is wrong and should be stopped. I think he would say that most LDS bishops are good men and not doing anything bad, but that the very act of interviewing youth alone at all is bad. I strongly disagree with him on this, but representing his argument and tone as "Every-Bishop-is-a-Pervert-and-Pedophile" is inaccurate and unhelpful in this issue. I think a position that posits that "the act of interviewing at all is wrong" is facially absurd. Let's take a look at some of Sam Young's messaging: Not much in the way of nuance in this image. Bishop interviewing a youth = "sexual shaming our children." Characterizing bishop interviews a per se and categorical "sexual shaming [of] our children" is facially absurd, And look at the URL: "Protect LDS Children." Protect them from what? LDS bishops. Bishops are a categorical threat to LDS children. That is how Sam Young seems to be coming across. Or this one: Who is purportedly conducting "sexual interviews with children?" According to Sam Young and his organization/supporters, the answer is . . . bishops. All bishops are doing this. (For the record, I was never asked any inappropriate questions by a bishop.) Who is purportedly committing "sexual abuse of LDS Children?" According to Sam Young and his organization/supporters, the answer seems to be . . . you guessed it . . . bishops. All bishops are doing this. Or this one: Who is causing "pain" to LDS children? According to Sam Young and his organization/supporters, the answer is . . . bishops. All bishops are doing this. Who is committing "emotional abuse of children?" According to Sam Young and his organization, the answer is . . . bishops. All bishops are doing this. Or this one: Who is "shaming our youth to death?" According to Sam Young and his organization/supporters, the answer is . . . bishops. All bishops are doing this. Or this one: What is causing LDS youth to be "thinking about suicide?" According to Sam Young and his organization/supporters, the answer is . . . bishop interviews. All of them. I suppose it's good that that sometimes, in some venues, Mr. Young steps back from his scorched earch rhetoric. But overall, his message is pretty offensive. Quote The larger issue, as I understand it from internal and external critics, is that youth interviews are de facto grooming, even when no sexual things are discussed at any level. I'm not particularly inclined to take their opinions and say-sos as definitive. "De facto grooming, even when no sexual things are discussed at any level?" How utterly absurd. Quote That's where I think traditionalists like me and you need to meet them in this discussion, since it is their emphasis that isn't going away. This isn't a "discussion," though, is it? They aren't looking for a discussion, they are looking for unfettered, unreasoned, unquestioned capitulation to the personal opinions of Sam Young and his cadre of supporters. And if publicly characterizing thousands of good and decent men, who volunteer extensive time and effort to act as bishops, as sexual perverts, as threats to children, as sexually and emotionally abusing children and causing them "pain", as "shaming" youth to death and driving them to suicide . . . I guess the ends justify the means. So sorry, I can't "meet them in this discussion." There is no discussion in which they can be met. And their vitriol has poisoned the well. There is no good will here. No effort to persuade. Just demands and bullying and coercion. -Smac Edited August 15, 2018 by smac97 5
smac97 Posted August 15, 2018 Author Posted August 15, 2018 26 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Pure Schadenfreude. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schadenfreude Who is exhibiting Schadenfreude? Thanks, -Smac
smac97 Posted August 15, 2018 Author Posted August 15, 2018 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: The similarities are not very meaningful, as you yourself observe further on. I agree. Quote A few years back, I wrote to RC Bishop John Wester (then of the SLC Diocese), saying, among other things: Bishop Wester's response was to push back and defend celibacy, which is merely a rule adopted by the Church a thousand years ago, and which is not a moral requirement of Christianity. Unless and until the RC Church gets rid of celibacy and begins requiring that clergy be married (happily married), this problem will continue to plague the RC community. An interesting thought. Having a sexual outlet may help, but it's not a solution. There are all sorts of perpetrators of abuse who are married, or who otherwise have no meaningful constraint on sexual expression. And yet they turn to abuse anyway. UPDATE: I think you are generally correct about fostering healthy psycho-sexual development. And perhaps it's a major component of the solution. Quote It is not clear to me just how readily LDS leaders will inform or recommend informing law enforcement. That is what I think is best, but am not at all sure that LDS leadership is dedicated to that notion. I think that repentance should come after a secular trial and sentencing. Well, having mandatory reporting laws has certainly helped. We as a society still have a long way to go in grappling with these issues. I am glad that local LDS leaders have training and guidelines and a framework to facilitate such reporting. Of course, reporting such things to the police isn't a cure-all, either... Thanks, -Smac Edited August 15, 2018 by smac97 2
Popular Post smac97 Posted August 15, 2018 Author Popular Post Posted August 15, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, stemelbow said: one victim is too many. That should say something to your complaint about the LDS church not having as widespread a problem. By that logic, we need to stop driving cars. "One [accident] victim is too many," after all. We also need to stop going to hospitals. "One [hospital infection] victim is too many." We also can't go to doctors anymore. "One [medical malpractice] victim is too many." And the schools. Gotta shut them down, too. "One [bullying] victim is too many." And alcohol. That's out. "One [intoxicated violence] victim is too many." And so on. Ad infinitum. This topic deserves some serious attention. Unrealistic aphorisms aren't really going to help. -Smac Edited August 15, 2018 by smac97 6
mfbukowski Posted August 15, 2018 Posted August 15, 2018 (edited) 38 minutes ago, SouthernMo said: I really hope your post was an attempt at humor, or sarcasm. To take joy in anything that relates to the abuse of children seems sick to me, even if it comes at the hands of an organization you don't support. Even if your joy comes from seeing the humiliation of the organization that kept Christ's teachings alive for a millennium and a half, how can you be so heartless? Please tell me I'm misunderstanding your comment. It seemed to me that the only reason for discussing this is OUR pride in not "being as bad as those Catholics" I can see how you might have interpreted it that way and I certainly didn't mean it that way. And it seems others who are bringing up our own dirty laundry see that too. Edited August 15, 2018 by mfbukowski
mfbukowski Posted August 15, 2018 Posted August 15, 2018 17 minutes ago, smac97 said: Who is exhibiting Schadenfreude? Thanks, -Smac I hope not us. I am wondering that myself- why start a thread on it? It seemed a tad self-righteous to me.
mfbukowski Posted August 15, 2018 Posted August 15, 2018 1 hour ago, SouthernMo said: You need to write this as an article to be punished somewhere. I know this was a typo but.... 1
smac97 Posted August 15, 2018 Author Posted August 15, 2018 4 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: I hope not us. I hope so too. I gave no indication of "pleasure derived by someone from another person's misfortune." To the contrary, I went out of my way to express sympathy for and solidarity with Catholics who are struggling with this issue. 4 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: I am wondering that myself- why start a thread on it? I explained why at some length. 4 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: It seemed a tad self-righteous to me. Huh? I made no reference to myself or my virtues in the OP. I did say this: Quote I hope our Catholic brothers and sisters find ways to address and resolve this problem without abandoning their faith. I hope those who are indulging lazy, bigoted stereotypes to malign all adherents of organized religions because of the misconduct of a (relative) few will reconsider their perspectives. I hope the abusers referened int he above article are deprived of their access to potential victims. And I hope they repent. And I hope they are brought to justice such as is allowed by law. I hope the victims referenced in the above article find comfort and peace. How is that "self-righteous" ("having or characterized by a certainty, especially an unfounded one, that one is totally correct or morally superior")? Moreover, why are you trying to personalize this thread? Thanks, -Smac 1
JulieM Posted August 15, 2018 Posted August 15, 2018 1 hour ago, ALarson said: I agree. Any light we can shine on this issue is good (thanks smac) and much (all?) of this applies to our church as well as the Catholic religion and others, IMO. I really do see that one on one interview with youth will have to end or at least more changes made by our church leaders. It’s just a matter of time imo. I know that more parents in my ward are making sure one of them is present with their child or teen. Like you said, this for sure isn’t just a Catholic problem (what’s in the OP). 3
Popular Post strappinglad Posted August 15, 2018 Popular Post Posted August 15, 2018 Our current society sexualizes EVERYTHING . Is that not a form of grooming? The school is asked to instruct students it a very young age about all the various sexual behaviors possible and acceptable. Is that not a form of grooming? Youth of all ages are told that they are never to be judged for any behavior because that would be ... pick an " ist " Is that a form of grooming ? Grooming is the process of preparing a mind to accept as normal, behaviors which are not normal, yet we are not calling out society as a whole for doing this in movies, games, Youtube, Twitter, etc. 6
HappyJackWagon Posted August 15, 2018 Posted August 15, 2018 1 minute ago, strappinglad said: Our current society sexualizes EVERYTHING . Is that not a form of grooming? The school is asked to instruct students it a very young age about all the various sexual behaviors possible and acceptable. Is that not a form of grooming? Youth of all ages are told that they are never to be judged for any behavior because that would be ... pick an " ist " Is that a form of grooming ? Grooming is the process of preparing a mind to accept as normal, behaviors which are not normal, yet we are not calling out society as a whole for doing this in movies, games, Youtube, Twitter, etc. But with the intent (or even unintended consequence) of making it easier for an individual to abuse another.
stemelbow Posted August 15, 2018 Posted August 15, 2018 2 hours ago, smac97 said: By that logic, we need to stop driving cars. "One [accident] victim is too many," after all. We also need to stop going to hospitals. "One [hospital infection] victim is too many." We also can't go to doctors anymore. "One [medical malpractice] victim is too many." And the schools. Gotta shut them down, too. "One [bullying] victim is too many." And alcohol. That's out. "One [intoxicated violence] victim is too many." And so on. Ad infinitum. This topic deserves some serious attention. Unrealistic aphorisms aren't really going to help. -Smac I tend to agree with Sam that it is possible to stop the one on one interviews. Unreasonable at this point to stop driving cars, but reasonable to stop the interviews.
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